26 Sep 2004 06:59:01
go raptors!
a couple of instructional questions

two instructional questions for you guys.... find people here very
knowledgable and helpful. thanks in advance for any help!!!

1) how much separation do you want from torso to elbow on forehand?
say semi-western (or between SW and eastern) and waist high ball....
do you want a tight tuck? or do you want 8 inch to 12 inch
separation? i can't figure it out.... same question on two handed
backhand, although seems much more obvious there.

2) on topspin (or somewhat similar kick serve) serve, how much do you
want to go up the back of the ball (12 to 6) vs. going over top of the
ball or sort of wrapping around the ball (impossible i know but good
imagery???)... to go up the back of the ball, implies that the racquet
goes up at a very, very steep angle... seems like over the top might
be a better idea.... mostly in instructional articles i see up the
back but never sure how literally they mean..


26 Sep 2004 10:12:18
Scall5
Re: a couple of instructional questions




"go raptors!" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> two instructional questions for you guys.... find people here
very
> knowledgable and helpful. thanks in advance for any help!!!
>
> 1) how much separation do you want from torso to elbow on
forehand?
> say semi-western (or between SW and eastern) and waist high
ball....
> do you want a tight tuck? or do you want 8 inch to 12 inch
> separation? i can't figure it out.... same question on two
handed
> backhand, although seems much more obvious there.

For me, usually the more open my elbow is the better I'll hit the
ball (within reason of course). Nine out of ten times my
forehand errors are caused by me having my elbow too close to my
waist. As for the two handed backhand, I wouldn't know (I play
single handed).

> 2) on topspin (or somewhat similar kick serve) serve, how much
do you
> want to go up the back of the ball (12 to 6) vs. going over top
of the
> ball or sort of wrapping around the ball (impossible i know but
good
> imagery???)... to go up the back of the ball, implies that the
racquet
> goes up at a very, very steep angle... seems like over the top
might
> be a better idea.... mostly in instructional articles i see up
the
> back but never sure how literally they mean..

I won't venture a guess on this, because my serve has been lousy
as of late. :(
--
---------------------------
Scall5




26 Sep 2004 14:32:02
Marius Hancu
Re: a couple of instructional questions

go raptors! wrote:

> two instructional questions for you guys.... find people here very
> knowledgable and helpful. thanks in advance for any help!!!
>
> 1) how much separation do you want from torso to elbow on forehand?
> say semi-western (or between SW and eastern) and waist high ball....
> do you want a tight tuck? or do you want 8 inch to 12 inch
> separation? i can't figure it out.... same question on two handed
> backhand, although seems much more obvious there.

I would say the elbow should have an angle of about 150 degrees or
smaller for __western__ grip on FH:

http://www.cwtennis.com/prostrokes.cfm#
(The Forehand Return of Serve)
http://www.cwtennis.com/virtual/forehanddetails.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=asu10109242132.paraguay__czech_republic_davis_cup_asu101&prov=ap
http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=xhg11609261647.china_tennis_open_xhg116&prov=ap
http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=asu10509252349.paraguay_czech_republic_davis_cup_asu105&prov=ap
http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=bej12409251845.china_open_tennis_bej124&prov=ap
http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=xias10409251510.russia_tennis_davis_cup_xias104&prov=ap
(watch other pics from the Yahoo Gallery)

The angle seems to decrease up to 90 degrees during the follow through.

Federer uses a grip which is between the eastern and semi-western and I
would say his elbow is pretty well extended (closer to 180 degrees) and
not close to the body on his forehand. However, he seems to have a very
laid back wrist, i.e. very much pushed ahead of the rest of the forearm,
which follows thru in the strike in his multi-element forehand strike.

The degree of tuck seems to depend on the players.

> 2) on topspin (or somewhat similar kick serve) serve, how much do you
> want to go up the back of the ball (12 to 6) vs. going over top of the
> ball or sort of wrapping around the ball (impossible i know but good
> imagery???)... to go up the back of the ball, implies that the racquet
> goes up at a very, very steep angle... seems like over the top might
> be a better idea.... mostly in instructional articles i see up the
> back but never sure how literally they mean..

I'd say I am going mostly from 7 to 1 o clock and then over the ball for
the kick serve. If the racquet drops lower during the takeback (without
really scratching the back, but still ...), this seems to help me, as
well as letting the ball fall more on me than for flat or slice serves.

For slice I'd say either:

- hit in the center and brush the racquet towards the right with no
wrapping at 3 o clock
- hit in the center and brush the racquet rolling it around the side of
the ball (i.e. with wrist pronation)

I'll get two different effects and both will mess up the returner:-)

BTW, these days I am using the same toss, on the vertical of the head,
not to the right or to the left of it, for all serves, and I am trying
to bring the serving arm directly over the head and this seems to help
in terms of bringing the ball down in the service area, as well as other
elements (good torso rotation, knee flexion, etc). Look at the baseball
players extending their arms in throwing the ball over their heads (some
of them) and you will know what I mean, perhaps.

Marius Hancu


27 Sep 2004 09:27:25
Jeff Perry
Re: a couple of instructional questions

forget the "going over the ball idea" if you actually do it the serve will
hit you in the foot. You may be getting confused with the fact that the
follow through does have to eventually come down but the ball is long gone
by that stage. At impact the ball will only know about the direction of
swing at that moment....doesn;t matter what happened before or after.

"Marius Hancu" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> go raptors! wrote:
>
>> two instructional questions for you guys.... find people here very
>> knowledgable and helpful. thanks in advance for any help!!!
>>
>> 1) how much separation do you want from torso to elbow on forehand?
>> say semi-western (or between SW and eastern) and waist high ball....
>> do you want a tight tuck? or do you want 8 inch to 12 inch
>> separation? i can't figure it out.... same question on two handed
>> backhand, although seems much more obvious there.
>
> I would say the elbow should have an angle of about 150 degrees or smaller
> for __western__ grip on FH:
>
> http://www.cwtennis.com/prostrokes.cfm#
> (The Forehand Return of Serve)
> http://www.cwtennis.com/virtual/forehanddetails.html
> http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=asu10109242132.paraguay__czech_republic_davis_cup_asu101&prov=ap
> http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=xhg11609261647.china_tennis_open_xhg116&prov=ap
> http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=asu10509252349.paraguay_czech_republic_davis_cup_asu105&prov=ap
> http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=bej12409251845.china_open_tennis_bej124&prov=ap
> http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/photo?slug=xias10409251510.russia_tennis_davis_cup_xias104&prov=ap
> (watch other pics from the Yahoo Gallery)
>
> The angle seems to decrease up to 90 degrees during the follow through.
>
> Federer uses a grip which is between the eastern and semi-western and I
> would say his elbow is pretty well extended (closer to 180 degrees) and
> not close to the body on his forehand. However, he seems to have a very
> laid back wrist, i.e. very much pushed ahead of the rest of the forearm,
> which follows thru in the strike in his multi-element forehand strike.
>
> The degree of tuck seems to depend on the players.
>
>> 2) on topspin (or somewhat similar kick serve) serve, how much do you
>> want to go up the back of the ball (12 to 6) vs. going over top of the
>> ball or sort of wrapping around the ball (impossible i know but good
>> imagery???)... to go up the back of the ball, implies that the racquet
>> goes up at a very, very steep angle... seems like over the top might
>> be a better idea.... mostly in instructional articles i see up the
>> back but never sure how literally they mean..
>
> I'd say I am going mostly from 7 to 1 o clock and then over the ball for
> the kick serve. If the racquet drops lower during the takeback (without
> really scratching the back, but still ...), this seems to help me, as well
> as letting the ball fall more on me than for flat or slice serves.
>
> For slice I'd say either:
>
> - hit in the center and brush the racquet towards the right with no
> wrapping at 3 o clock
> - hit in the center and brush the racquet rolling it around the side of
> the ball (i.e. with wrist pronation)
>
> I'll get two different effects and both will mess up the returner:-)
>
> BTW, these days I am using the same toss, on the vertical of the head, not
> to the right or to the left of it, for all serves, and I am trying to
> bring the serving arm directly over the head and this seems to help in
> terms of bringing the ball down in the service area, as well as other
> elements (good torso rotation, knee flexion, etc). Look at the baseball
> players extending their arms in throwing the ball over their heads (some
> of them) and you will know what I mean, perhaps.
>
> Marius Hancu




27 Sep 2004 03:54:16
Marius Hancu
Re: a couple of instructional questions

Jeff Perry wrote:

> follow through does have to eventually come down but the ball is long gone
> by that stage.

correct.

Marius Hancu


27 Sep 2004 06:42:38
go raptors!
Re: a couple of instructional questions

thanks for everyone's help... a few little things in response.

marius -what angle are you measuring on western forehand? i looked at
the pictures (and thank you very much for those) and i assume you mean
between upper and lower arm and lower arm is generally parallel to
ground... please correct if wrong.............. also, what's the
tennis scene like in montreal? i'm in toronto, we have a great
community club system.

also, trying to hit kick/topspin serves, i find i frame the ball too
often (i assume leading edge but not totally certain).... my frame is
pretty thick (probably not the right expression).... will a much
thinner frame help or should i look to technique?? or the obvious
answer both??? other than framing the ball a fair number of times, i'm
pretty happy with kick/topspin serve....

marius, also, is there a centralized site on yahoo for those tennis
pictures? and are those other sources paid/subscription sites for you?
or free?

great that you guys are helpful.... the golf forum is almost all
instruction/rules/playing experience etc. whereas the tennis forum is
almost all arguing over players place in history (lendl vs. agassi
etc.)..... i wish there were more of us interested in these subjects.


27 Sep 2004 15:07:21
Marius Hancu
Re: a couple of instructional questions

go raptors! wrote:

> marius -what angle are you measuring on western forehand? i looked at
> the pictures (and thank you very much for those) and i assume you mean
> between upper and lower arm

Yes. Lower arm being the forearm:-)

please correct if wrong.............. also, what's the
> tennis scene like in montreal? i'm in toronto, we have a great
> community club system.

Good in the summer and relatively unexpensive then (at $7/hr/court). Bad
in the winter, when it costs a lot. One must be in clubs then,
memberships in excess of $1,500/yr.

> also, trying to hit kick/topspin serves, i find i frame the ball too
> often (i assume leading edge but not totally certain).... my frame is
> pretty thick (probably not the right expression).... will a much
> thinner frame help or should i look to technique??

It's all technique and timing, I think. You really should try to hit the
ball with the center of the racquet:-)

But definitely larger area frames help with any spin, including on
serves. But probably not thicker ones.

or the obvious
> answer both??? other than framing the ball a fair number of times, i'm
> pretty happy with kick/topspin serve....

Kick is definitely more dificult. It can get away from you.
Also, your shoulder must be quite warmed up and flexible by then as that
movement should be like a lashing over the ball ... Sometimes I need
20-40 serves in practice to reach that level of flexibility ... thus
warming up your serve in a separate session before matches can become
critical.

> marius, also, is there a centralized site on yahoo for those tennis
> pictures? and are those other sources paid/subscription sites for you?
> or free?

This is easy and all free:-)
Just go to the tennis page at Yahoo Sports
http://sports.yahoo.com/ten;_ylc=X3oDMTBpcTY4aHVwBF9TAzk1ODYyNTg0BHNlYwN0bg--
and look for Slideshow and Gallery.

Also, check this great reference site for great shots:
http://www.tenniscruz.com/photo.htm

Marius Hancu