31 Oct 2003 10:22:44
Karen
Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

Sorry I started another thread, because I didn't want to go through
that over 100 messages to find an answer.

H. Holbrook, I'm very curious about your acclaimed famous "drop serve
ace".

In the slam single finals in the past 5 years, can you give me 5 solid
examples of your "drop serve ace" that happened?

Regards


31 Oct 2003 19:47:40
H Holbrook
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve



Karen wrote:

> Sorry I started another thread, because I didn't want to go through
> that over 100 messages to find an answer.
>
> H. Holbrook, I'm very curious about your acclaimed famous "drop serve
> ace".
>
> In the slam single finals in the past 5 years, can you give me 5 solid
> examples of your "drop serve ace" that happened?

I have no idea what you're talking about, and clearly you don't either.
I've never said there were any drop shot serve aces in any grand slam
single finals in the past five years or ever.

But thanks for asking!



31 Oct 2003 23:19:14
Richard
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

[email protected] wrote...
>
> Karen wrote:
>
> > Sorry I started another thread, because I didn't want to go through
> > that over 100 messages to find an answer.
> >
> > H. Holbrook, I'm very curious about your acclaimed famous "drop serve
> > ace".
> >
> > In the slam single finals in the past 5 years, can you give me 5 solid
> > examples of your "drop serve ace" that happened?
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about, and clearly you don't either.
> I've never said there were any drop shot serve aces in any grand slam
> single finals in the past five years or ever.

No pushers there, either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

--
Exporting jobs is treason.

Clark '04


31 Oct 2003 20:02:00
Steve Jaros
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


> No pushers there, either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Karen's got a good point, though. If it really was possible to hit literally
unreturnable drop shot aces. We should be able to point to many examples in
big slam matches where someone has pulled an ace off.

Or at least many attempts.

Or... Something, other than Chang v. Lendl 14 years ago.





01 Nov 2003 03:28:50
Richard
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

[email protected] wrote...
>
> > No pushers there, either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
>
> Karen's got a good point, though. If it really was possible to hit literally
> unreturnable drop shot aces. We should be able to point to many examples in
> big slam matches where someone has pulled an ace off.
>
> Or at least many attempts.
>
> Or... Something, other than Chang v. Lendl 14 years ago.

I've definitely seen a few flubbed attempts at the pro level. ASV
did one of them, as I recall, and I'm pretty sure she was booed by
the crowd for doing it. As she would be whenever she'd start
moonballing her opponent.

My point--and I have too much of a life to argue it beyond simply
stating it here, exactly once more--is that there seem to be some
things that the pros have an unwritten agreement not to use against
each other: Pushing/dinking; moonballing; extreme slice-and-dice
shots; and, perhaps, even the drop-shot serve.

If this is an accurate observation, then it wouldn't mean that these
things aren't effective--it might simply mean that they aren't
"supposed" to be part of the pro game. I think the audience picks up
on this as well, as evidenced by how vocal the crowd gets when a pro
player switches into moonball mode.

--
Exporting jobs is treason.

Clark '04


31 Oct 2003 22:13:15
Steve Jaros
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

> My point--and I have too much of a life to argue it beyond simply
> stating it here, exactly once more--is that there seem to be some
> things that the pros have an unwritten agreement not to use against
> each other: Pushing/dinking; moonballing; extreme slice-and-dice
> shots; and, perhaps, even the drop-shot serve.

From what i've observed, pros will use whatever shots they can to win. It's
pretty cutthroat out there.

But if a typical pro was given the choice of having to hit either a) a
max-pace serve that is very poorly placed (i.e., in the opponents
wheel-house) or b) a 'drop shot serve', i'd bet that the vast majority would
choose to hit the former, because they figure it would give them easily the
better chance to win the point...

Point being that, whatever is best 'theoretically' or 'perfectly' aside,
when it comes to practical tennis, the max-pace/min-place serve is a far
better play than the max-place, min-pace (i.e., drop-shot) serve is.


--
"if federal judges have the final word over its meaning,
the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands
of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form
they please".

- Thomas Jefferson




01 Nov 2003 04:44:21
Richard
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

[email protected] wrote...
> > My point--and I have too much of a life to argue it beyond simply
> > stating it here, exactly once more--is that there seem to be some
> > things that the pros have an unwritten agreement not to use against
> > each other: Pushing/dinking; moonballing; extreme slice-and-dice
> > shots; and, perhaps, even the drop-shot serve.
>
> From what i've observed, pros will use whatever shots they can to win. It's
> pretty cutthroat out there.

I have no real idea, of course, but I get the impression there's
almost a sense of honor out there. Why else the universal apology
for net cord winners?

Dinkers aren't any less reviled at the pro level, from what I can
tell. Drop shot serves might fall in the category of a dink shot.

> But if a typical pro was given the choice of having to hit either a) a
> max-pace serve that is very poorly placed (i.e., in the opponents
> wheel-house) or b) a 'drop shot serve', i'd bet that the vast majority would
> choose to hit the former, because they figure it would give them easily the
> better chance to win the point...

Sorry. I'm not going to waste time considering arguments that factor
out the degree of predictability in shot selection.

> Point being that, whatever is best 'theoretically' or 'perfectly' aside,
> when it comes to practical tennis, the max-pace/min-place serve is a far
> better play than the max-place, min-pace (i.e., drop-shot) serve is.

I dunno. I'm a long way from being a pro, but my serve is usually an
asset against the players I run in to. I'm usually toast if I don't
mix up both pace and place.

Speaking practically, and all.

I'll pass on getting drawn deeper into this. Last word is yours if
you want it.

--
Exporting jobs is treason.

Clark '04


01 Nov 2003 04:57:10
H Holbrook
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve



Steve Jaros wrote:

> > No pushers there, either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
>
> Karen's got a good point, though. If it really was possible to hit literally
> unreturnable drop shot aces. We should be able to point to many examples in
> big slam matches where someone has pulled an ace off.
>
> Or at least many attempts.
>
> Or... Something, other than Chang v. Lendl 14 years ago.

It's a sad reality, but Jaros still can't figure it out. Just because
something is possible doesn't mean it's EVER a good choice to do. It's
possible to hit the top of the net cord and have the ball dribble over,
unreturnable. That doesn't mean it's something you'd want to try to do. I
really am starting to believe that the extent of Jaros' tennis experience is
reading old Tennis World magazines. I don't think he's ever watched or played
the game. Seriously.




01 Nov 2003 05:00:43
H Holbrook
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve



Steve Jaros wrote:

>
> Point being that, whatever is best 'theoretically' or 'perfectly' aside,
> when it comes to practical tennis, the max-pace/min-place serve is a far
> better play than the max-place, min-pace (i.e., drop-shot) serve is.

Well, now, see? If you'd capitulated this way in the beginning like you should
have you'd have saved yourself all that embarrassment!

While I don't agree with "far better", it's certainly a safer (i.e., smarter)
play on a FIRST serve to try to hit it as hard as you can even if you lose some
control doing so. And I totally agree, as do all people who play tennis, that
what's possible is not always what's smartest.



01 Nov 2003 01:20:26
Steve Jaros
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


"H Holbrook" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
>
> Steve Jaros wrote:
>
> > > No pushers there, either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
> >
> > Karen's got a good point, though. If it really was possible to hit
literally
> > unreturnable drop shot aces. We should be able to point to many examples
in
> > big slam matches where someone has pulled an ace off.
> >
> > Or at least many attempts.
> >
> > Or... Something, other than Chang v. Lendl 14 years ago.
>
> It's a sad reality, but Jaros still can't figure it out.

My God - the king of speciousness, the prince of illogic, the duke of the
begged question dares to comment on anyone else's 'figuring'..?

> Just because
> something is possible doesn't mean it's EVER a good choice to do.

Who said otherwise? Point is, any claim that a particular shot is possible
to hit for a 100% sure winner is surely bolstered by evidence that the shot
has been hit and landed for a winner lots of times, and is weakened to the
extent that it hasn't.

Holbrook has a lot of "absence" to explain, and he's explained it absurdly.


--
"if federal judges have the final word over its meaning,
the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands
of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form
they please".

- Thomas Jefferson









01 Nov 2003 01:24:25
Steve Jaros
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

"H Holbrook" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
>
> Steve Jaros wrote:
>
> >
> > Point being that, whatever is best 'theoretically' or 'perfectly' aside,
> > when it comes to practical tennis, the max-pace/min-place serve is a far
> > better play than the max-place, min-pace (i.e., drop-shot) serve is.
>
> Well, now, see? If you'd capitulated this way

If you think there's a 'capitulation' in there, you're dumber than i thought
(and i thought you were pretty dumb).

> in the beginning like you should
> have you'd have saved yourself all that embarrassment!

If you think anyone other than yourself has been 'embarrassed' by this, you
are dumber than i thought (and i thought you were pretty dumb).

In fact, every additional post you make in support of your illogical,
specious arguments is yet more embarrassment piled onto a veritable Everest
of it.

;)

--
"if federal judges have the final word over its meaning,
the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands
of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form
they please".

- Thomas Jefferson




02 Nov 2003 04:40:00
Yama
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


"Richard" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> [email protected] wrote...
> > From what i've observed, pros will use whatever shots they can to win.
It's
> > pretty cutthroat out there.
>
> I have no real idea, of course, but I get the impression there's
> almost a sense of honor out there. Why else the universal apology
> for net cord winners?
>
> Dinkers aren't any less reviled at the pro level, from what I can
> tell. Drop shot serves might fall in the category of a dink shot.

Big money is for grabs at the pro level. We have seen from other sports that
if there is a loophole to be exploited, someone will exploit it, regardless
of how "unsportsmanlike" it is. There is no reason to think tennis is any
different.

Personally, I think you don't see much dinkers at the pro level is because
you have to be really really good (and I do mean really that good) to make a
living as a "dinker" at the pro level (read: Fabrice Santoro).

(not everyone apologizes net cords, Agassi for example. That trend is fairly
recent one in any case).




01 Nov 2003 22:41:11
Steve Jaros
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

> (not everyone apologizes net cords, Agassi for example. That trend is
fairly
> recent one in any case).

... and of course the apology is pro-forma, no one who gets one is actually
'sorry' about it.


--
"if federal judges have the final word over its meaning,
the Constitution would be a mere thing of wax in the hands
of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form
they please".

- Thomas Jefferson




02 Nov 2003 13:39:45
Lloyd
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


"Yama" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]


> Personally, I think you don't see much dinkers at the pro level is because
> you have to be really really good (and I do mean really that good) to make
a
> living as a "dinker" at the pro level (read: Fabrice Santoro).

If Santoro had the speed of Coria or Schuettler he'd be a helluva lot
better. His mobility is quite poor and this is why he can't compete at the
top level - it has nothing to do with the shortcomings of dinking.




02 Nov 2003 06:01:22
John Russell
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 04:44:21 GMT, Richard <[email protected] > wrote:
>Dinkers aren't any less reviled at the pro level, from what I can
>tell. Drop shot serves might fall in the category of a dink shot.

When I have seen drop-shot serves work at the amateur level, it's
either because the returner wasn't ready to run in at all, or the shot
had heavy sidespin, causing a last-second lunge and usually a mishit.
I think at the pro level they would be reading the server's motion
early enough not to be taken by surprise, and their footwork would be
good enough to adjust to a screwy bounce.

Even at the club level, I've only seen it work once per match (against
a good opponent) or twice (against a dim one).

NB: Don't try it in doubles with your partner at the net. (Speaking
as said partner.)

John
--
Photo gallery: http://www.pbase.com/john_russell/


02 Nov 2003 11:36:22
Yama
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


"Lloyd" <[email protected]"remove this to reply" smartchat.net.au > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Yama" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > Personally, I think you don't see much dinkers at the pro level is
because
> > you have to be really really good (and I do mean really that good) to
make
> a
> > living as a "dinker" at the pro level (read: Fabrice Santoro).
>
> If Santoro had the speed of Coria or Schuettler he'd be a helluva lot
> better. His mobility is quite poor and this is why he can't compete at the
> top level - it has nothing to do with the shortcomings of dinking.

Santoro has a poor mobility? You must be joking. The guy is fast as a
greased lightning, or at least was when I saw him last time. Perhaps not as
fast as Grosjean or Hewitt, but very fast nevertheless.




03 Nov 2003 09:14:39
Lloyd
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


"Yama" <[email protected] > wrote in message

> Santoro has a poor mobility? You must be joking. The guy is fast as a
> greased lightning, or at least was when I saw him last time. Perhaps not
as
> fast as Grosjean or Hewitt, but very fast nevertheless.

I've watched him many times and saw him twice this week. He's actually quite
a slow mover; he gives the APPEARANCE of being quick because he's often
scrambling the ball back but anything more than a few steps away he
struggles to get. He has great anticipation and that enables him to often be
in good position but watch him anytime he's surprised by his opponent's shot
(i.e. a dropshot) - he's really struggling to get to it.




03 Nov 2003 07:14:23
Karen
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.

Richard <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> My point--and I have too much of a life to argue it beyond simply
> stating it here, exactly once more--is that there seem to be some
> things that the pros have an unwritten agreement not to use against
> each other: Pushing/dinking; moonballing; extreme slice-and-dice
> shots; and, perhaps, even the drop-shot serve.
>

I believe this too.

I'm glad that I'm a fan of a noble sports. When illegal performance
enhance drug run rampant in other sports; when some hitter weld a
corked bat; when someone has her competition's leg hacked; our tennis
heroes don't even attempt unsportsman tactics. They are not blinded by
the millions in prize money, endorsement, fame and fortune. They don't
care if their years of training down to the drain. What's more? They
feel sorry if they've won a point not squarely.

The old and wise say the age of your brain is reflected on your face.
Hopefully they're right. So I can have a fresh baby face to show off.


04 Nov 2003 00:15:49
Yama
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


"Lloyd" <[email protected]"remove this to reply" smartchat.net.au > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Yama" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Santoro has a poor mobility? You must be joking. The guy is fast as a
> > greased lightning, or at least was when I saw him last time. Perhaps not
> as
> > fast as Grosjean or Hewitt, but very fast nevertheless.
>
> I've watched him many times and saw him twice this week. He's actually
quite
> a slow mover; he gives the APPEARANCE of being quick because he's often
> scrambling the ball back but anything more than a few steps away he
> struggles to get. He has great anticipation and that enables him to often
be
> in good position but watch him anytime he's surprised by his opponent's
shot
> (i.e. a dropshot) - he's really struggling to get to it.

I've also watched him many times. One of the most memorable matches I've
watched was Santoro-Safin at RG 2001, 5-set classic about touch and strategy
vs power and raw talent. I do clearly remember how he was retrieving
incredibly and frustrating Safin who just could not finish points against
him (with exception of 4th set, which Santoro tanked).

Of course, Santoro is almost 31, it may be he is not at his fastest anymore.
Certainly his results this year have not been particularly great.




04 Nov 2003 11:14:48
Lloyd
Re: Quiz for H. Holbrook, name the instance of your famous drop serve ace in slam finals.


"Yama" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:bo6jv7> I've also
watched him many times. One of the most memorable matches I've
> watched was Santoro-Safin at RG 2001, 5-set classic about touch and
strategy
> vs power and raw talent. I do clearly remember how he was retrieving
> incredibly and frustrating Safin who just could not finish points against
> him (with exception of 4th set, which Santoro tanked).

I don't dispute this; I love watching Fabrice for these very qualities.
However I'll repeat that he is still not a fast mover (and never was). True,
he gives the impression he is for the two reasons I've mentioned but just
watch carefully his actual rate of movement when he's trying to get to a
distant ball. Shots that Coria would be taking at the top of the bounce
Santoro is struggling to get his racquet to.