27 Feb 2008 16:08:43
Kramer on returning strategy

http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html

Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...

"[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."





28 Feb 2008 11:27:48
DavidW
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

<[email protected] > wrote
> http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>
> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>
> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."

On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.




27 Feb 2008 17:19:23
Gordon Cameron
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Feb 27, 4:27 pm, "DavidW" <[email protected] > wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
>
>
> >http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>
> > Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>
> > "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> > serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> > trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> > hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> > So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> > player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> > a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> > the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> > have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> > mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> > serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> > loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> > out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> > ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> > odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> > when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> > When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> > against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> > a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> > perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> > so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> > purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> > sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> > and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> > I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> > looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> > saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> > the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>
> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.

Maybe there's more of a potential for energy drain if both players
aren't SV'ers (which might have been rarer in Kramer's day). I think
the way Pete usually did it is he would often go for big shots off the
return -- that's why you see his backhands going for clean winners or
just missing outright, a lot of the time. He didn't want to run
around a lot playing defense, but if a couple of the big shots dropped
in and he found himself with 15-30 or love-30, he would perk up and
try to take the game.


27 Feb 2008 22:23:31
Carey
Re: Kramer on returning strategy



Gordon Cameron wrote:
> On Feb 27, 4:27 pm, "DavidW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> >
> >
> > >http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> >
> > > Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> >
> > > "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> > > serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> > > trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> > > hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> > > So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> > > player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> > > a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> > > the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> > > have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> > > mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> > > serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> > > loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> > > out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> > > ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> > > odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> > > when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> > > When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> > > against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> > > a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> > > perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> > > so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> > > purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> > > sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> > > and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> > > I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> > > looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> > > saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> > > the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> >
> > On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> > yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> > much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> > try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> > run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> > seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> > which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> > quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
>
> Maybe there's more of a potential for energy drain if both players
> aren't SV'ers (which might have been rarer in Kramer's day). I think
> the way Pete usually did it is he would often go for big shots off the
> return -- that's why you see his backhands going for clean winners or
> just missing outright, a lot of the time. He didn't want to run
> around a lot playing defense, but if a couple of the big shots dropped
> in and he found himself with 15-30 or love-30, he would perk up and
> try to take the game.

I wish Fed would use that tactic while returning v Nadal- even first
serve. Take a
rip man, you're likely to lose the game anyway..


28 Feb 2008 19:19:33
Whisper
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

[email protected] wrote:
> http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>
> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>
> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>
>
>




Fuck, & I thought Rochey only looked 120 yrs old - didn't realize he
actually was!



28 Feb 2008 00:21:33
MBDunc
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On the other hand if a player chooses Kramer/Sampras (also Ivanisevic)
returning strategy, it is also mentally easier for the opponent.

The better returners (Connors, Agassi, Hewitt, Fed for example) have
showed that pressuring constantly opponents' serve is more stressing
to server and serve is then more prone for breaks in a long run. Of
course it needs more physical/mental energy but that applies to server
also. Also if there is going to be several breaks of apparent great
serve, then server really needs a lot of confidence to climb back.

Apart from Fed of above list, the RoS masters usually do not have had
serve great enough for relying Kramer/Sampras strategy.

Both return strategies are surely valid, depends of course serving/
returning/mental/fitness abilities of a player which way to go.

.mikko





28 Feb 2008 19:21:04
Whisper
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

DavidW wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>> http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>>
>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>>
>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>
> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
>
>


Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
obviously fabulously successful.



28 Feb 2008 06:54:55
topspin
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On 28 Feb, 08:21, MBDunc <[email protected] > wrote:
> On the other hand if a player chooses Kramer/Sampras (also Ivanisevic)
> returning strategy, it is also mentally easier for the opponent.
>
> The better returners (Connors, Agassi, Hewitt, Fed for example) have
> showed that pressuring constantly opponents' serve is more stressing
> to server and serve is then more prone for breaks in a long run. Of
> course it needs more physical/mental energy but that applies to server
> also. Also if there is going to be several breaks of apparent great
> serve, then server really needs a lot of confidence to climb back.
>
> Apart from Fed of above list, the RoS masters usually do not have had
> serve great enough for relying Kramer/Sampras strategy.
>
> Both return strategies are surely valid, depends of course serving/
> returning/mental/fitness abilities of a player which way to go.
>
> .mikko

The master of this strategy* in my watching life was Gonzales. Once he
had a break he was so confident of his service that he would hardly
make an effort on his opponent's service. It was so obvious that in
this day and age he would be likely to be cautioned for not trying!


(*which btw I've seen pretty much 'every' top player with a decent
serve adopt - don't got flat out on every point but pace yourself and
up the intensity if you get break opportunities. When you have a break
rely on your own serve and don't waste energy on your opponents
serve.

In fact anyone on this ng who plays a strong serving game will use the
same policy - it is something you either work out, or is trained into
you from an early age).)


28 Feb 2008 08:56:57
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Feb 27, 7:08=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>
> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>
> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> =A0 =A0 So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> =A0 =A0 ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> =A0 =A0 When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> =A0 =A0 I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."

Yes, this is descriptive of the original meaning of the term
"percentage tennis". The term has more recently become associated
with high percentage shot selection with the proliferation of the
bumrooting style of play. My own view of the percentage game though
is that you should make another press in the situation that Kramer
describes even with the single break in the bag. One should be all
you need, but more is obviously better and he is describing a USO
final. He's gonna get all flustered over a long return game? The
correct approach is to definitely try and win it and not be too
concerned if you don't, knowing you have a big service game. Not only
do I not like Kramer tennis as I have seen it on film and in stills,
but I seem to always find fault with his observations as well.


28 Feb 2008 09:06:20
Scott
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Feb 28, 1:23=A0am, Carey <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> I wish Fed would use that tactic while returning v Nadal- even first
> serve. Take a
> rip man, you're likely to lose the game anyway..-

Fed doesn't really ever take a rip with anyone. he's more of a
defensive returner overall.



28 Feb 2008 09:10:59
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Feb 28, 3:21=A0am, Whisper <[email protected] > wrote:
> DavidW wrote:
> > <[email protected]> wrote
> >>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>
> >> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>
> >> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> >> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> >> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> >> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> >> =A0 =A0So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> >> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> >> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> >> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> >> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> >> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> >> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> >> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> >> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> >> =A0 =A0...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the=

> >> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> >> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> >> =A0 =A0When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> >> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> >> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> >> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> >> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> >> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> >> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> >> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> >> =A0 =A0I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> >> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> >> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> >> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>
> > On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing=

> > yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it i=
s how
> > much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough=
. Just
> > try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try ha=
rd to
> > run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a sw=
ing. It
> > seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deu=
ces,
> > which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining =
points
> > quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
>
> Sampras was a master at this strategy. =A0Not pretty to watch, but
> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
service game and poured it on again to get the break.


29 Feb 2008 17:29:41
Whisper
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

topspin wrote:
> On 28 Feb, 08:21, MBDunc <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On the other hand if a player chooses Kramer/Sampras (also Ivanisevic)
>> returning strategy, it is also mentally easier for the opponent.
>>
>> The better returners (Connors, Agassi, Hewitt, Fed for example) have
>> showed that pressuring constantly opponents' serve is more stressing
>> to server and serve is then more prone for breaks in a long run. Of
>> course it needs more physical/mental energy but that applies to server
>> also. Also if there is going to be several breaks of apparent great
>> serve, then server really needs a lot of confidence to climb back.
>>
>> Apart from Fed of above list, the RoS masters usually do not have had
>> serve great enough for relying Kramer/Sampras strategy.
>>
>> Both return strategies are surely valid, depends of course serving/
>> returning/mental/fitness abilities of a player which way to go.
>>
>> .mikko
>
> The master of this strategy* in my watching life was Gonzales. Once he
> had a break he was so confident of his service that he would hardly
> make an effort on his opponent's service. It was so obvious that in
> this day and age he would be likely to be cautioned for not trying!
>
>
> (*which btw I've seen pretty much 'every' top player with a decent
> serve adopt - don't got flat out on every point but pace yourself and
> up the intensity if you get break opportunities. When you have a break
> rely on your own serve and don't waste energy on your opponents
> serve.
>
> In fact anyone on this ng who plays a strong serving game will use the
> same policy - it is something you either work out, or is trained into
> you from an early age).)


Yes, but most here have never played tennis & interpret eg Sampras'
results as some kind of cosmic fluke, given his 'shitty' bh etc




29 Feb 2008 17:54:09
Whisper
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

[email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>> DavidW wrote:
>>> <[email protected]> wrote
>>>> http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
>>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
>>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
>>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
>>>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
>>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
>>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
>>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
>>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
>>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
>>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
>>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
>>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
>>>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
>>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
>>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
>>>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
>>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
>>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
>>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
>>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
>>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
>>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
>>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
>>>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
>>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
>>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
>>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
>>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
>>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
>>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
>>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
>>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
>>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
>>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
>> Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
>> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
> vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
> got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
> service game and poured it on again to get the break.


Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -
he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not fun
to watch.



29 Feb 2008 07:18:15
topspin
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected] > wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> DavidW wrote:
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote
> >>>>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> >>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> >>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> >>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> >>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> >>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> >>>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> >>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> >>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> >>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> >>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> >>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> >>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> >>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> >>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> >>>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> >>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> >>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> >>>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> >>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> >>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> >>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> >>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> >>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> >>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> >>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> >>>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> >>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> >>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> >>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> >>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> >>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> >>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> >>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> >>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> >>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> >>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> >>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
> >> Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
> >> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
> > vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> > percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
> > got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
> > service game and poured it on again to get the break.
>
> Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -
> he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not fun
> to watch.

I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
troops

"I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
frighten me."...

:-)


29 Feb 2008 08:41:06
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Feb 29, 10:18=A0am, topspin <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> DavidW wrote:
> > >>> <[email protected]> wrote
> > >>>>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> > >>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> > >>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> > >>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> > >>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired t=
o
> > >>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> > >>>> =A0 =A0So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the othe=
r
> > >>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that=
on
> > >>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of=

> > >>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a g=
uy
> > >>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> > >>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off =
his
> > >>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> > >>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all=

> > >>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serv=
e.
> > >>>> =A0 =A0...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving=
the
> > >>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break=

> > >>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> > >>>> =A0 =A0When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]=

> > >>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set =
was
> > >>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was =
a
> > >>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You'r=
e
> > >>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> > >>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands =
are
> > >>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a re=
st
> > >>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> > >>>> =A0 =A0I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I=

> > >>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I wer=
e
> > >>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served o=
ut
> > >>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> > >>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in kil=
ling
> > >>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about =
it is how
> > >>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple en=
ough. Just
> > >>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't tr=
y hard to
> > >>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have =
a swing. It
> > >>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of=
deuces,
> > >>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remain=
ing points
> > >>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
> > >> Sampras was a master at this strategy. =A0Not pretty to watch, but
> > >> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I enjoyed watching it. =A0The last 2 return games that Sampras played
> > > vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> > > percentage game, but making it work like a champ. =A0The ultimate. =A0=
He
> > > got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
> > > service game and poured it on again to get the break.
>
> > Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -=

> > =A0 he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not f=
un
> > to watch.
>
> I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
> tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
> fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
> troops
>
> "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
> frighten me."...
>
> :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Where is the torturous logic? Maybe you were too eager to get off
that quote?


01 Mar 2008 14:00:51
Whisper
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

topspin wrote:
> On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> DavidW wrote:
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>> http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>>>>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>>>>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
>>>>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
>>>>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
>>>>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
>>>>>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
>>>>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
>>>>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
>>>>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
>>>>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
>>>>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
>>>>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
>>>>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
>>>>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
>>>>>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
>>>>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
>>>>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
>>>>>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
>>>>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
>>>>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
>>>>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
>>>>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
>>>>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
>>>>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
>>>>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
>>>>>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
>>>>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
>>>>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
>>>>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>>>>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
>>>>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
>>>>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
>>>>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
>>>>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
>>>>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
>>>>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
>>>>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
>>>> Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
>>>> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
>>> vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
>>> percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
>>> got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
>>> service game and poured it on again to get the break.
>> Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -
>> he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not fun
>> to watch.
>
> I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
> tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
> fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
> troops
>
> "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
> frighten me."...
>
> :-)


Tennis fans more than Sampras fans - I'm definitely no fanboy, but a
slight bias towards Mac I must confess. That should be obvious even
from this thread.

I have criticized Sampras heavily in the past, but gotta call it like it
is overall. His best is better than Fed's for sure imo.


01 Mar 2008 15:02:15
topspin
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On 29 Feb, 16:41, [email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 29, 10:18=A0am, topspin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > > On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >> DavidW wrote:
> > > >>> <[email protected]> wrote
> > > >>>>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> > > >>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> > > >>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your=

> > > >>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the cour=
t
> > > >>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired=
to
> > > >>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> > > >>>> =A0 =A0So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the ot=
her
> > > >>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show th=
at on
> > > >>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent =
of
> > > >>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a=
guy
> > > >>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his ow=
n
> > > >>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners of=
f his
> > > >>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the leas=
t
> > > >>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point a=
ll
> > > >>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his se=
rve.
> > > >>>> =A0 =A0...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were servi=
ng the
> > > >>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the bre=
ak
> > > >>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> > > >>>> =A0 =A0When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championship=
s]
> > > >>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first se=
t was
> > > >>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here wa=
s a
> > > >>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You=
're
> > > >>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what=

> > > >>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hand=
s are
> > > >>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a =
rest
> > > >>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> > > >>>> =A0 =A0I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then=
I
> > > >>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I w=
ere
> > > >>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served=
out
> > > >>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> > > >>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in k=
illing
> > > >>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder abou=
t it is how
> > > >>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple =
enough. Just
> > > >>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't =
try hard to
> > > >>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well hav=
e a swing. It
> > > >>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots =
of deuces,
> > > >>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the rema=
ining points
> > > >>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
> > > >> Sampras was a master at this strategy. =A0Not pretty to watch, but
> > > >> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I enjoyed watching it. =A0The last 2 return games that Sampras playe=
d
> > > > vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> > > > percentage game, but making it work like a champ. =A0The ultimate. =
=A0He
> > > > got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's nex=
t
> > > > service game and poured it on again to get the break.
>
> > > Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve=
-
> > > =A0 he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not=
fun
> > > to watch.
>
> > I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
> > tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
> > fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
> > troops
>
> > "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
> > frighten me."...
>
> > :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Where is the torturous logic? =A0Maybe you were too eager to get off
> that quote?-

Well....

I've always thought that while Whisper knows what he likes i.e.

- Sampras
- McEnroe
- being the centre of attention

he knows bugger all really about tennis. Whereas I've always had you
down as knowing how to play the game.

And then this thread, which was about, I thought,

- pacing yourself once you get a break up (OP/Kramer)
- not wasting any energy on trying to break your opponent again (OP/
Kramer)
- even deliberately losing an opponent's service game when you are
0-30, to conserve energy (DW)
- Sampras being a master at doing it (Whisper)

suddenly gets hijacked by you into an orgasmic rant about how Sampras
stuck it to Agassi when he *wasn't* a break ahead on Agassi's serve.

If I combine that with Whisper's proclivity for carpet-bombing
everyone else's topics with irrelevant references back to Sampras, it
suggest being a Sampras fan can cause some to lose their senses.

So if I were a moderate, rational, Sampras fan I might think what the
Duke of Wellington thought.

:-)


01 Mar 2008 15:09:13
topspin
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On 1 Mar, 03:00, Whisper <[email protected] > wrote:
> topspin wrote:
> > On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>> On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> DavidW wrote:
> >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote
> >>>>>>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> >>>>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> >>>>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> >>>>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> >>>>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired t=
o
> >>>>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> >>>>>> =A0 =A0So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the othe=
r
> >>>>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that=
on
> >>>>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of=

> >>>>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a g=
uy
> >>>>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> >>>>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off =
his
> >>>>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> >>>>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all=

> >>>>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serv=
e.
> >>>>>> =A0 =A0...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving=
the
> >>>>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break=

> >>>>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> >>>>>> =A0 =A0When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]=

> >>>>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set =
was
> >>>>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was =
a
> >>>>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You'r=
e
> >>>>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> >>>>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands =
are
> >>>>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a re=
st
> >>>>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> >>>>>> =A0 =A0I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I=

> >>>>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I wer=
e
> >>>>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served o=
ut
> >>>>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> >>>>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in kil=
ling
> >>>>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about =
it is how
> >>>>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple en=
ough. Just
> >>>>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't tr=
y hard to
> >>>>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have =
a swing. It
> >>>>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of=
deuces,
> >>>>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remain=
ing points
> >>>>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
> >>>> Sampras was a master at this strategy. =A0Not pretty to watch, but
> >>>> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> I enjoyed watching it. =A0The last 2 return games that Sampras played
> >>> vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> >>> percentage game, but making it work like a champ. =A0The ultimate. =A0=
He
> >>> got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
> >>> service game and poured it on again to get the break.
> >> Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve =
-
> >> =A0 he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not =
fun
> >> to watch.
>
> > I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
> > tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
> > fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
> > troops
>
> > "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
> > frighten me."...
>
> > :-)
>
> Tennis fans more than Sampras fans

Great to hear it. I am waiting with baited breath for your
appreciative, insightful, posts about the WTA, doubles, the Spanish
and French approaches to tennis coaching,...and all those other myriad
aspects of tennis. :-)


02 Mar 2008 10:15:48
Whisper
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

topspin wrote:
> On 1 Mar, 03:00, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>> topspin wrote:
>>> On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> DavidW wrote:
>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>>> http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>>>>>>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>>>>>>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
>>>>>>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
>>>>>>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
>>>>>>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
>>>>>>>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
>>>>>>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
>>>>>>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
>>>>>>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
>>>>>>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
>>>>>>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
>>>>>>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
>>>>>>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
>>>>>>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
>>>>>>>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
>>>>>>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
>>>>>>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
>>>>>>>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
>>>>>>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
>>>>>>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
>>>>>>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
>>>>>>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
>>>>>>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
>>>>>>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
>>>>>>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
>>>>>>>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
>>>>>>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
>>>>>>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
>>>>>>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>>>>>>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
>>>>>>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
>>>>>>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
>>>>>>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
>>>>>>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
>>>>>>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
>>>>>>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
>>>>>>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
>>>>>> Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
>>>>>> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>> I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
>>>>> vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
>>>>> percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
>>>>> got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
>>>>> service game and poured it on again to get the break.
>>>> Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -
>>>> he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not fun
>>>> to watch.
>>> I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
>>> tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
>>> fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
>>> troops
>>> "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
>>> frighten me."...
>>> :-)
>> Tennis fans more than Sampras fans
>
> Great to hear it. I am waiting with baited breath

'bated'


01 Mar 2008 17:36:48
Shakes
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Feb 29, 7:00 pm, Whisper <[email protected] > wrote:
> topspin wrote:
> > On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>> On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> DavidW wrote:
> >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote
> >>>>>>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> >>>>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> >>>>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> >>>>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> >>>>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> >>>>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> >>>>>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> >>>>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> >>>>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> >>>>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> >>>>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> >>>>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> >>>>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> >>>>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> >>>>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> >>>>>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> >>>>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> >>>>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> >>>>>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> >>>>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> >>>>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> >>>>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> >>>>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> >>>>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> >>>>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> >>>>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> >>>>>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> >>>>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> >>>>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> >>>>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> >>>>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> >>>>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> >>>>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> >>>>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> >>>>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> >>>>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> >>>>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> >>>>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
> >>>> Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
> >>>> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
> >>> vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> >>> percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
> >>> got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
> >>> service game and poured it on again to get the break.
> >> Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -
> >> he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not fun
> >> to watch.
>
> > I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
> > tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
> > fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
> > troops
>
> > "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
> > frighten me."...
>
> > :-)
>
> Tennis fans more than Sampras fans - I'm definitely no fanboy, but a
> slight bias towards Mac I must confess. That should be obvious even
> from this thread.
>
> I have criticized Sampras heavily in the past, but gotta call it like it
> is overall. His best is better than Fed's for sure imo.

and fed's best is better than sampras' best by a whisker, imo. sadly,
neither of us can prove the other wrong.



01 Mar 2008 17:49:00
[email protected]
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Mar 2, 7:36 am, Shakes <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Feb 29, 7:00 pm, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > topspin wrote:
> > > On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> [email protected] wrote:
> > >>> On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>>> DavidW wrote:
> > >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote
> > >>>>>>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> > >>>>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> > >>>>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> > >>>>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> > >>>>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> > >>>>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> > >>>>>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> > >>>>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> > >>>>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> > >>>>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> > >>>>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> > >>>>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> > >>>>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> > >>>>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> > >>>>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> > >>>>>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> > >>>>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> > >>>>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> > >>>>>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> > >>>>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> > >>>>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> > >>>>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> > >>>>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> > >>>>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> > >>>>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> > >>>>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> > >>>>>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> > >>>>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> > >>>>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> > >>>>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> > >>>>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> > >>>>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> > >>>>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> > >>>>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> > >>>>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> > >>>>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> > >>>>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> > >>>>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
> > >>>> Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
> > >>>> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
> > >>>> - Show quoted text -
> > >>> I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
> > >>> vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> > >>> percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
> > >>> got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
> > >>> service game and poured it on again to get the break.
> > >> Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -
> > >> he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not fun
> > >> to watch.
>
> > > I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
> > > tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
> > > fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
> > > troops
>
> > > "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
> > > frighten me."...
>
> > > :-)
>
> > Tennis fans more than Sampras fans - I'm definitely no fanboy, but a
> > slight bias towards Mac I must confess. That should be obvious even
> > from this thread.
>
> > I have criticized Sampras heavily in the past, but gotta call it like it
> > is overall. His best is better than Fed's for sure imo.
>
> and fed's best is better than sampras' best by a whisker, imo. sadly,
> neither of us can prove the other wrong.

Being a fanboy, Whimpy's ego is tied to Sampras. He can't help it.
It's better to ignore his unprovable drivels.


01 Mar 2008 18:03:21
[email protected]
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Feb 28, 7:19 am, Gordon Cameron <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Feb 27, 4:27 pm, "DavidW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > >http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
>
> > > Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
>
> > > "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> > > serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> > > trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> > > hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> > > So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> > > player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> > > a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> > > the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> > > have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> > > mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> > > serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> > > loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> > > out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> > > ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> > > odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> > > when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> > > When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> > > against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> > > a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> > > perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> > > so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> > > purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> > > sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> > > and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> > > I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> > > looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> > > saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> > > the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
>
> > On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> > yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> > much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> > try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> > run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> > seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> > which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> > quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
>
> Maybe there's more of a potential for energy drain if both players
> aren't SV'ers (which might have been rarer in Kramer's day). I think
> the way Pete usually did it is he would often go for big shots off the
> return -- that's why you see his backhands going for clean winners or
> just missing outright, a lot of the time. He didn't want to run
> around a lot playing defense, but if a couple of the big shots dropped
> in and he found himself with 15-30 or love-30, he would perk up and
> try to take the game.

It's interesting how different peak Federer's approach is from this.
He seems not to care about draining his energy by putting too much
effort in return games. Serving or receiving, he seems to put in the
same effort into rallies. And yet, his success rate is phenomenal.


01 Mar 2008 18:06:16
[email protected]
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Mar 2, 5:02 am, topspin <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 29 Feb, 16:41, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 10:18 am, topspin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 29 Feb, 06:54, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 28, 3:21 am, Whisper <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >> DavidW wrote:
> > > > >>> <[email protected]> wrote
> > > > >>>>http://tennis.quickfound.net/history/jack_kramer.html
> > > > >>>> Sounds like Sampras musta read every word of this ...
> > > > >>>> "[Cliff] Roche's first rule of percentage tennis was to hold your
> > > > >>>> serve... It didn't make any sense to go running all over the court
> > > > >>>> trying to break the other guy's serve, if this left you too tired to
> > > > >>>> hold your own serve. Priorities. Percentages.
> > > > >>>> So what Roche taught me was to play it easy against the other
> > > > >>>> player's serve until he fell behind love-30... Statistics show that on
> > > > >>>> a fast court, a good server will hold serve more than 50 percent of
> > > > >>>> the time even after he is down love-40. So early in a set I let a guy
> > > > >>>> have his serve unless he got behind love-30 or love-40 off his own
> > > > >>>> mistakes. I would just try and keep him honest--go for winners off his
> > > > >>>> serve, try something different--whatever I could do with the least
> > > > >>>> loss of energy. Then when it got to 4-all, I played every point all
> > > > >>>> out (except possibly if he got ahead 30-love or 40-love on his serve.
> > > > >>>> ...Roche taught me to play it even safer if you were serving the
> > > > >>>> odd games. The guy who serves the even games serves after the break
> > > > >>>> when he is rested and has had a chance to dry his hands.
> > > > >>>> When I won my first Forest Hills [US National Championships]
> > > > >>>> against Tom Brown in 1946, Roche was in the marquee. The first set was
> > > > >>>> a toughie. I won 9-7. Then I went up 5-2 in the next set. Here was a
> > > > >>>> perfect time for a kid to lose his head and go for the break. You're
> > > > >>>> so close to 6-2, two sets to love, you can taste it. But for what
> > > > >>>> purpose: you fail to break him; he's 5-3, you're tired, your hands are
> > > > >>>> sweaty, he's got a good chance to break you, and then he's got a rest
> > > > >>>> and dry hands before his serve. Boom, like that: 5-5.
> > > > >>>> I let Brown have the game for 5-3 without a struggle. Then I
> > > > >>>> looked up and saluted Roche, and he nodded back. It was as if I were
> > > > >>>> saying: "I lost that one for you." And my energy spared, I served out
> > > > >>>> the set at 6-3 and then closed out the match at love."
> > > > >>> On the surface it all looks pretty sensible. There's no point in killing
> > > > >>> yourself if the odds are against you. The only thing I wonder about it is how
> > > > >>> much energy it really takes to try to break. The return is simple enough. Just
> > > > >>> try to get it back low. If the volley is good, maybe you wouldn't try hard to
> > > > >>> run it down, but if you can get to it easily you might as well have a swing. It
> > > > >>> seems to me that the biggest energy risk is a long game with lots of deuces,
> > > > >>> which implies that you should actually make sure you lose the remaining points
> > > > >>> quickly if the server is, say, 30-0.
> > > > >> Sampras was a master at this strategy. Not pretty to watch, but
> > > > >> obviously fabulously successful.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > I enjoyed watching it. The last 2 return games that Sampras played
> > > > > vs. Agassi at 02 USO are superb example of not only playing the
> > > > > percentage game, but making it work like a champ. The ultimate. He
> > > > > got fucked out of one break on a bad call, came back on Agassi's next
> > > > > service game and poured it on again to get the break.
>
> > > > Yes, I meant the tennis he plays when his opponent is up 30-0 on serve -
> > > > he's chunking it on purpose & often missing by a mile - that's not fun
> > > > to watch.
>
> > > I know the two of you are Sampras fans, but having watched the
> > > tortuous logic of this thread I can only think that if I was a Sampras
> > > fan I'd be thinking of what the Duke of Wellington said of his own
> > > troops
>
> > > "I don't know whether they frighten the enemy, but by God they
> > > frighten me."...
>
> > > :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Where is the torturous logic? Maybe you were too eager to get off
> > that quote?-
>
> Well....
>
> I've always thought that while Whisper knows what he likes i.e.
>
> - Sampras
> - McEnroe
> - being the centre of attention
>
> he knows bugger all really about tennis. Whereas I've always had you
> down as knowing how to play the game.
>
> And then this thread, which was about, I thought,
>
> - pacing yourself once you get a break up (OP/Kramer)
> - not wasting any energy on trying to break your opponent again (OP/
> Kramer)
> - even deliberately losing an opponent's service game when you are
> 0-30, to conserve energy (DW)
> - Sampras being a master at doing it (Whisper)
>
> suddenly gets hijacked by you into an orgasmic rant about how Sampras
> stuck it to Agassi when he *wasn't* a break ahead on Agassi's serve.
>
> If I combine that with Whisper's proclivity for carpet-bombing
> everyone else's topics with irrelevant references back to Sampras, it
> suggest being a Sampras fan can cause some to lose their senses.
>
> So if I were a moderate, rational, Sampras fan I might think what the
> Duke of Wellington thought.
>
> :-)

Excellent synopsis. Whimpy has a tendency to bring out the worst in
everybody, even an otherwise level-headed Sampras fan like blanders.


01 Mar 2008 23:35:00
Javier Gonzalez
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

[email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Being a fanboy, Whimpy's ego is tied to Sampras. He can't help it.
> It's better to ignore his unprovable drivels.

Cue Alanis...


01 Mar 2008 23:57:45
[email protected]
Re: Kramer on returning strategy

On Mar 2, 8:35 am, Javier Gonzalez <[email protected] > wrote:
> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Being a fanboy, Whimpy's ego is tied to Sampras. He can't help it.
> > It's better to ignore his unprovable drivels.
>
> Cue Alanis...

Yes, in rst, *you live, you learn*. In fact, *you oughta know* that
some fanboys are *head over feet* when it comes to their heroes, so
instead of putting your *hands in your pocket*, you try to make them
feel *uninvited* in most discussions. *Ironic*? Yes, but rst is not
*so pure* as you want it to be.