17 Mar 2006 13:14:19
W Letendre
Coaches are Scary People!

So two years back, just started on figure skates, Jeanne took video of
me doin' simple dance move. Showed that I was NOT standing up straight;
leaning way over. Mentioned to Coach Leona at the time that I had seen
a video of myself skating, and, before I could add anything more, she
chimed in, "And you were leaning forward, weren't you?" ***Gulp***

And, wouldn't you know it, week and a half ago, Jeanne took another
clip of me doin' 3s. Showed improvement, but, still not standing up
straight. Prudently (Ithought!) decided, this time, that Coach Leona
didn't need to hear about new video.....

Hah! Went to lesson today, got scolded for "hunching over," (not sure
I'll live long enough to outgrow hockey skater's crouch) and Leona
added, "Get that girl with the blue skates to make another video of you
skating; you'll see!"

Ay Yi Yi! Coaches must be like Grade School Teachers: eyes in the back
of their heads and ears concealed in the furniture!

W Letendre



17 Mar 2006 22:10:11
Steve
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

Well you don't hunch as badly as me ;-).

Talking of coach insight, I discussed the alternating FI3 move you
were doing, on that previous video you put up, with our coach
yesterday. Specifically my problems trying to do more than a few of
those turns before running out of rotation and then rapidly slowing to
a stop, whenever I tried it. As it's a US MITF and being a UK coach
he couldn't recall doing same, in recent memory at least , but after a
few pathetic attempts by me to replicate it as a demo for him to copy
he picked it up and casually proceeded coach-style down the rink doing
lovely flowing deep-edged alternating FI3s as I imagine they should be
done. On a move that's essentially new to him - scary... His comment
afterwards - "that one is actually a lot harder than it looks" - he
feels anyone who does that reasonably well is doing just great on the
FI3 anyway...

Steve

On 17 Mar 2006 13:14:19 -0800, "W Letendre"
<[email protected] > wrote:

>So two years back, just started on figure skates, Jeanne took video of
>me doin' simple dance move. Showed that I was NOT standing up straight;
>leaning way over. Mentioned to Coach Leona at the time that I had seen
>a video of myself skating, and, before I could add anything more, she
>chimed in, "And you were leaning forward, weren't you?" ***Gulp***
>
>And, wouldn't you know it, week and a half ago, Jeanne took another
>clip of me doin' 3s. Showed improvement, but, still not standing up
>straight. Prudently (Ithought!) decided, this time, that Coach Leona
>didn't need to hear about new video.....
>
>Hah! Went to lesson today, got scolded for "hunching over," (not sure
>I'll live long enough to outgrow hockey skater's crouch) and Leona
>added, "Get that girl with the blue skates to make another video of you
>skating; you'll see!"
>
>Ay Yi Yi! Coaches must be like Grade School Teachers: eyes in the back
>of their heads and ears concealed in the furniture!
>
>W Letendre


17 Mar 2006 14:26:08
W Letendre
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

Steve wrote:
> Well you don't hunch as badly as me ;-).
>
> Talking of coach insight, I discussed the alternating FI3 move you
> were doing, on that previous video you put up, with our coach
> yesterday. Specifically my problems trying to do more than a few of
> those turns before running out of rotation and then rapidly slowing to
> a stop, whenever I tried it. As it's a US MITF and being a UK coach
> he couldn't recall doing same, in recent memory at least , but after a
> few pathetic attempts by me to replicate it as a demo for him to copy
> he picked it up and casually proceeded coach-style down the rink doing
> lovely flowing deep-edged alternating FI3s as I imagine they should be
> done. On a move that's essentially new to him - scary... His comment
> afterwards - "that one is actually a lot harder than it looks" - he
> feels anyone who does that reasonably well is doing just great on the
> FI3 anyway...
>
> Steve
>

Yeah, Coach Leona is like that, too. When they added the new FI3 to FO3
to BXO move to PB MITF test here is US, she was a bit confused by
diagram, at first, but, as soon as someone gave her a good explanation
of what diagram showed..... she was off down the rink, flowing through
turns, as neatly as if she had practiced that move all her life.

Quite demoralizing!

W Letendre



17 Mar 2006 15:07:20
Three Turn
Re: Coaches are Scary People!


> Yeah, Coach Leona is like that, too. When they added the new FI3 to FO3
> to BXO move to PB MITF test here is US, she was a bit confused by
> diagram, at first, but, as soon as someone gave her a good explanation
> of what diagram showed..... she was off down the rink, flowing through
> turns, as neatly as if she had practiced that move all her life.
>
> Quite demoralizing!
>
> W Letendre

Heh, today I showed that pattern to my coach - it was the first time
he'd ever seen it and he did them so gorgeousy and easily with
spontaneous instructions on how to place the upper body - I wanted to
hit him.
3turn
http://3turn.livejournal.com/



18 Mar 2006 14:10:00
Mrs Redboots
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

Steve wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Fri, 17 Mar 2006:

>Well you don't hunch as badly as me ;-).
>
>Talking of coach insight, I discussed the alternating FI3 move you
>were doing, on that previous video you put up, with our coach
>yesterday. Specifically my problems trying to do more than a few of
>those turns before running out of rotation and then rapidly slowing to
>a stop, whenever I tried it. As it's a US MITF and being a UK coach
>he couldn't recall doing same, in recent memory at least , but after a
>few pathetic attempts by me to replicate it as a demo for him to copy
>he picked it up and casually proceeded coach-style down the rink doing
>lovely flowing deep-edged alternating FI3s as I imagine they should be
>done. On a move that's essentially new to him - scary... His comment
>afterwards - "that one is actually a lot harder than it looks" - he
>feels anyone who does that reasonably well is doing just great on the
>FI3 anyway...
>
It is a move here, but it has a crossover in between the 3-turns. Which
doesn't make it much easier, as every lobe has to be the same size. I
can't do them like that!

I don't know whether it is being carried over into the new Moves that
are being rolled out this year, though.
--
"Mrs Redboots" mailto:[email protected]
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
http://mrs_redboots.livejournal.com


18 Mar 2006 07:41:50
W Letendre
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

Mrs Redboots wrote:
> I don't know whether it is being carried over into the new Moves that
> are being rolled out this year, though.
> --
> "Mrs Redboots" mailto:[email protected]
> http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
> http://mrs_redboots.livejournal.com

UK tests are changing too? Ah, well, don't feel quite so put upon,
then, with our Adult MIF tests changing. Had half decided that USFSA
was going to keep changing test elements just often enough that I would
never quite learn one set of elements well enough to test before they
were changed again....

W Letendre



18 Mar 2006 17:30:15
Mrs Redboots
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

W Letendre wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Sat, 18 Mar
2006:

>Mrs Redboots wrote:
>> I don't know whether it is being carried over into the new Moves that
>> are being rolled out this year, though.

>
>UK tests are changing too? Ah, well, don't feel quite so put upon,
>then, with our Adult MIF tests changing. Had half decided that USFSA
>was going to keep changing test elements just often enough that I would
>never quite learn one set of elements well enough to test before they
>were changed again....
>
NISA keeps changing things. This time, it's to concatenate the Dance
Moves with the Field Moves, so there will be only one set, known as
Skating Moves, and some of them are truly Evil!!!! If I don't pass my
Level 3 dance moves by the cut off date (1 March 2007), I think I'll be
stuck at Level 3 forever! Fortunately (at the moment) for dancers, you
don't have to do all of one level before going on to the next, but can
go back and "fill in" if you want, or need to (to become a coach or a
judge) later. Just as well, with the number of tests at each level
these days....

If I do pass my Level 3, it will be the third time in my skating career
that I will have been credited with skills above my present level!
--
"Mrs Redboots" mailto:[email protected]
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
http://mrs_redboots.livejournal.com


18 Mar 2006 09:51:49
Jeanne D
Students are scary too! Re: Coaches are Scary People!

When I was first learning pre-juv moves I decided I wanted my own
Instructor Moves in the Field training mpegs, so I got this idea to
video my instructor. She was most gracious and let me video tape her
5-step and back perimeter stroking. She didn't like the first mpeg so
she insisted we make a better one. These were just 15 second mpegs, no
big deal, but she was picky and it had to be perfect.

After two sessions of bringing my camera to the rink I think she
thought this was going to be a weekly thing. I show up the 3rd week and
she says "you didn't bring your camera with you today, did
you?!!".....Fortunately I didn't.

Last year I did an imitation for Tiger on how my instructor skated her
5-step, which was with very sharp and smooth extension, but on me it
looked like Lord of the Dance gone wrong. :)




W Letendre wrote:
> So two years back, just started on figure skates, Jeanne took video of
> me doin' simple dance move. Showed that I was NOT standing up straight;
> leaning way over. Mentioned to Coach Leona at the time that I had seen
> a video of myself skating, and, before I could add anything more, she
> chimed in, "And you were leaning forward, weren't you?" ***Gulp***
>
> And, wouldn't you know it, week and a half ago, Jeanne took another
> clip of me doin' 3s. Showed improvement, but, still not standing up
> straight. Prudently (Ithought!) decided, this time, that Coach Leona
> didn't need to hear about new video.....
>
> Hah! Went to lesson today, got scolded for "hunching over," (not sure
> I'll live long enough to outgrow hockey skater's crouch) and Leona
> added, "Get that girl with the blue skates to make another video of you
> skating; you'll see!"
>
> Ay Yi Yi! Coaches must be like Grade School Teachers: eyes in the back
> of their heads and ears concealed in the furniture!
>
> W Letendre



18 Mar 2006 10:35:37
johns
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

No guy should skate standing up straight. Our weight is high,
and it would go behind the blades if we did that, resulting in
bad falls and broken wrists. Our best posture for MITF is
crouched with bent knees and lower back SLIGHTLY arched.
If we rise to a high stance it should be only as part of an
upweight to release the blade in turns. Of course there are
some guys with large butts and no chest, and they can skate
like girls :-)

johns



18 Mar 2006 17:10:43
W Letendre
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

johns wrote:
> No guy should skate standing up straight. Our weight is high,
> and it would go behind the blades if we did that, resulting in
> bad falls and broken wrists. Our best posture for MITF is
> crouched with bent knees and lower back SLIGHTLY arched.
> If we rise to a high stance it should be only as part of an
> upweight to release the blade in turns. Of course there are
> some guys with large butts and no chest, and they can skate
> like girls :-)
>
> johns


Heh! Guarantee that you & Coach Leona would not find a lot of common
ground on this issue!

For myself, find that a bit of a crouch is more comfortable if I'm
after speed, whether on hockey or figure skates. OTOH, trying to do
turns with any sort of percision, haven't yet found the point at which
standing up even straighter doesn't seem to help!

Would'na said I had a figure much like a girl's, though. A bit like a
scarecrow, mebbe....

W Letendre



18 Mar 2006 17:25:37
W Letendre
Re: Students are scary too! Re: Coaches are Scary People!

Jeanne D wrote:
> When I was first learning pre-juv moves I decided I wanted my own
> Instructor Moves in the Field training mpegs, so I got this idea to
> video my instructor. She was most gracious and let me video tape her
> 5-step and back perimeter stroking. She didn't like the first mpeg so
> she insisted we make a better one. These were just 15 second mpegs, no
> big deal, but she was picky and it had to be perfect.
>
> After two sessions of bringing my camera to the rink I think she
> thought this was going to be a weekly thing. I show up the 3rd week and
> she says "you didn't bring your camera with you today, did
> you?!!".....Fortunately I didn't.
>
> Last year I did an imitation for Tiger on how my instructor skated her
> 5-step, which was with very sharp and smooth extension, but on me it
> looked like Lord of the Dance gone wrong. :)
>

By 5-step, do you mean the 5 step Mohawk element from MIF tests? I've
seen that one done a few times, by a few skaters, with executions
varying from silky smooth to spastic; not part of my drill, so far!

W Letendre



18 Mar 2006 20:04:26
DB
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

>No guy should skate standing up straight. Our weight is high,
>and it would go behind the blades if we did that, resulting in
>bad falls and broken wrists. Our best posture for MITF is
>crouched with bent knees and lower back SLIGHTLY arched.
>If we rise to a high stance it should be only as part of an
>upweight to release the blade in turns. Of course there are
>some guys with large butts and no chest, and they can skate
>like girls :-)

Hahaha! Guess you've never seen Kurt Browning skate Nyah. Hardly a
girl's build. :)



19 Mar 2006 01:43:44
johns
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

He's never looked comfortable on the ice to me. Regardless,
even the girls use the stance I mentioned. Crouched with lower
back arched and chest raised. Nobody, I know of in the top
ranks stands up straight while skating. But every stupid idiot
coach out there will tell you to stand straight and use good
posture. THAT is another reason why I won't listen to coaches.
Most of them ... no ... ALL of them are morons.

johns



19 Mar 2006 12:53:07
Mrs Redboots
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

johns wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Sun, 19 Mar 2006:

>He's never looked comfortable on the ice to me. Regardless,
>even the girls use the stance I mentioned. Crouched with lower
>back arched and chest raised. Nobody, I know of in the top
>ranks stands up straight while skating. But every stupid idiot
>coach out there will tell you to stand straight and use good
>posture. THAT is another reason why I won't listen to coaches.
>Most of them ... no ... ALL of them are morons.
>
You mean "Everybody's out of step except me!"

Why do you pretend to know anything at all about ice-skating? I
sometimes wonder whether you have ever actually taken a lesson in your
life.

Coaches are highly trained professionals, the training (in this country,
anyway) takes a minimum of two years, and that's assuming the would-be
coach is of a certain minimum standard. Those who are less than this
have to take longer about their training. That, by the way, is just to
get the preliminary qualification which doesn't actually allow you to
coach private lessons without supervision - to get to that exalted level
requires at least another year's training on top of that! I should say
not full-time training, but certainly eating significantly into one's
free time.

You claim to be a gymnastics coach - how long a training did you have?
--
"Mrs Redboots" mailto:[email protected]
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
http://mrs_redboots.livejournal.com


19 Mar 2006 13:47:09
John F
Re: Coaches are Scary People!


"Mrs Redboots" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> You claim to be a gymnastics coach - how long a training did you have?

Maybe gymnastics coaches are morons too... ;o)

John




19 Mar 2006 06:03:04
Jeanne D
Re: Students are scary too! Re: Coaches are Scary People!

Yes, the 5-step mohawk from MITF. I'm sure you'll be working on that
drill soon enough. The 8-step is the one I demonstrated on the hockey
circle, laughing at myself for hopping the mohawk.





W Letendre wrote:
> Jeanne D wrote:
> > When I was first learning pre-juv moves I decided I wanted my own
> > Instructor Moves in the Field training mpegs, so I got this idea to
> > video my instructor. She was most gracious and let me video tape her
> > 5-step and back perimeter stroking. She didn't like the first mpeg so
> > she insisted we make a better one. These were just 15 second mpegs, no
> > big deal, but she was picky and it had to be perfect.
> >
> > After two sessions of bringing my camera to the rink I think she
> > thought this was going to be a weekly thing. I show up the 3rd week and
> > she says "you didn't bring your camera with you today, did
> > you?!!".....Fortunately I didn't.
> >
> > Last year I did an imitation for Tiger on how my instructor skated her
> > 5-step, which was with very sharp and smooth extension, but on me it
> > looked like Lord of the Dance gone wrong. :)
> >
>
> By 5-step, do you mean the 5 step Mohawk element from MIF tests? I've
> seen that one done a few times, by a few skaters, with executions
> varying from silky smooth to spastic; not part of my drill, so far!
>
> W Letendre



19 Mar 2006 15:21:17
Mrs Redboots
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

John F wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Sun, 19 Mar 2006:

>
>"Mrs Redboots" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>> You claim to be a gymnastics coach - how long a training did you have?
>
>Maybe gymnastics coaches are morons too... ;o)
>
Certainly based on the available evidence..... ;)
--
"Mrs Redboots" mailto:[email protected]
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
http://mrs_redboots.livejournal.com


19 Mar 2006 07:35:36
SlingSkate
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

""And you were leaning forward, weren't you?"

The big difference that I noted between dance and freestyle lessons
that I have had is that the dance teacher placed total emphasis on a
vertical torso whereas the freestyle instructors allow some body tilt
to allow for a high leg extension on simple stroking stuff. I
mentioned this to the dance person and they responded about allowing
tilt to get a higher leg extension: dumb.



19 Mar 2006 10:44:11
Gonna Skate
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

johns wrote:
> Crouched with lower
> back arched and chest raised. Nobody, I know of in the top
> ranks stands up straight while skating. But every stupid idiot
> coach out there will tell you to stand straight and use good
> posture.

Just an experiment here of mutual understanding instead of jumping on
the ever-popular anti-johns bandwagon...

If johns were to change the word "crouched" to "knees well bent" I'd
completely agree with him. I think that part of the definition of
"crouch" is bent knees, it just also implies rounded shoulders and a
bent back. So I personally don't think it communicates adequqately.
However...

For their basic skating position all the fast, powerful skaters I see
on TV and at the rink arch their lower backs when they tilt their hips
forward a bit just as johns suggested. The sloppy skaters don't bother
with arching their lower backs to compensate for the hip tilt and they
really do look "crouched" or hunched like hockey skaters and tend to be
more scratchy. Obviously, skaters also sometimes use a perfectly
straight position (one of my pet peeves is a skater who never opens
that hip "angulation" for anything), but I'd consider it more the
exception than the rule.

If I were to try to keep my butt completely tucked when I bent my knees
I wouldn't be in a very mobile position, and I'd probably even fall
over backwards. That slight pelvis tilt allows me to get some of my
weight forward over the center of my blades. Perhaps the smaller arsed
of the world and men have a different experience, but even guy figure
skaters I see on TV tilt their hips and arch their lower backs when
they power around.

Obviously coaches also tell skaters to tuck their tail feathers in, and
to keep their shoulders back, usually as a way to get their students to
bend their ankles as well as their knees. They also tell skaters to
lean forward a bit and in the next breath to "keep your back up." It
all sounds contradictory, but if you do as johns suggests and arch your
lower back, you can "crouch" and keep your torso up at the same time.
It looks quite nice and allows for a lot of agility.



19 Mar 2006 14:17:55
W Letendre
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

SlingSkate wrote:
> ""And you were leaning forward, weren't you?"
>
> The big difference that I noted between dance and freestyle lessons
> that I have had is that the dance teacher placed total emphasis on a
> vertical torso whereas the freestyle instructors allow some body tilt
> to allow for a high leg extension on simple stroking stuff. I
> mentioned this to the dance person and they responded about allowing
> tilt to get a higher leg extension: dumb.

Ah, you may have hit it on the head! Should mention: Coach Leona, in he
younger days, competed at Gold level in both Freestyle and Ice Dance.
May account for her "verticality fixation!"

W Letendre



20 Mar 2006 05:35:52
Joanna Tsang Ramberg
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

Mrs Redboots wrote:
>
> johns wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Sun, 19 Mar 2006:
>
> >He's never looked comfortable on the ice to me. Regardless,
> >even the girls use the stance I mentioned. Crouched with lower
> >back arched and chest raised. Nobody, I know of in the top
> >ranks stands up straight while skating. But every stupid idiot
> >coach out there will tell you to stand straight and use good
> >posture. THAT is another reason why I won't listen to coaches.
> >Most of them ... no ... ALL of them are morons.
> >
> You mean "Everybody's out of step except me!"
>
> Why do you pretend to know anything at all about ice-skating? I
> sometimes wonder whether you have ever actually taken a lesson in your
> life.
Johns: The way you're suggesting people skate will at best get you
a lower backache and the label of "hunchback figure skater from Norte
Dame" and, at worse, you end up tripping on your toepicks!!!

I suggests you stop scaring the other skaters like that!!! *evil grin*

(Sorry for feeding the troll, guys! Sometimes I just can't help
myself...)

Cheers,
Joanna
--

Reply to me at "jramberg" at <that email site at Microsoft >
Don't want no scrubs (or SPAM!!!) :-)


20 Mar 2006 06:17:14
Joanna Tsang Ramberg
johns is a scary person (Was Re: Coaches are Scary People!)

Mrs Redboots wrote:
>
> johns wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Sun, 19 Mar 2006:
>
> >He's never looked comfortable on the ice to me. Regardless,
> >even the girls use the stance I mentioned. Crouched with lower
> >back arched and chest raised. Nobody, I know of in the top
> >ranks stands up straight while skating. But every stupid idiot
> >coach out there will tell you to stand straight and use good
> >posture. THAT is another reason why I won't listen to coaches.
> >Most of them ... no ... ALL of them are morons.
> >
> You mean "Everybody's out of step except me!"
>
> Why do you pretend to know anything at all about ice-skating? I
> sometimes wonder whether you have ever actually taken a lesson in your
> life.
Johns: The way you're suggesting people skate will at best get you
a lower backache and the label of "hunchback figure skater from Norte
Dame" and, at worse, you end up tripping on your toepicks!!!

I suggests you stop scaring the other skaters like that!!! *evil grin*

(Sorry for feeding the troll, guys!)

Cheers,
Joanna
--

Reply to me at "jramberg" at <that email site at Microsoft >
Don't want no scrubs (or SPAM!!!) :-)


20 Mar 2006 09:05:08
johns
Re: Coaches are Scary People!

This is correct. You are obviously a very intelligent person.
The "crouched" ape-like position is the strongest defensive
positon that the body can attain. It is also the quickest.
When learning skills, this is the best postion for learning
them. Body position is not static in skating. It should always
be changing vertically to use down-weight into the blades.
The average amatuer skater tends to have a "frozen"
body position ... not responding to much of anything.
The average coach is not trained well enough to analyze
that problem. They invariably think that erect posture
will fix all the scratchy edges and bad jump entries, and
they are simply wrong. Us gymnastics coaches went
through years of this sort of nonsense with the judges,
who wanted very straight bodies ( called good extension )
in everything ... leading to lots of injuries, and really
pretty crappy gymnastics for decades. We finally got
our way after they all died of old age, or were carried
off the mental institutions ... and the rounded up posture
became the standard in gymnastics tumbling ... resulting
in double backs, triple fulls .. great improvements.

johns



02 Apr 2006 09:49:41
Janet
Re: Coaches are Scary People!


SlingSkate wrote:
> ""And you were leaning forward, weren't you?"
>
> The big difference that I noted between dance and freestyle lessons
> that I have had is that the dance teacher placed total emphasis on a
> vertical torso whereas the freestyle instructors allow some body tilt
> to allow for a high leg extension on simple stroking stuff. I
> mentioned this to the dance person and they responded about allowing
> tilt to get a higher leg extension: dumb.

What's fun is to have an instructor with feet in both disciplines teach
you freestyle. Or an instructor who is primarily an ice dancer teach
you freestyle. One who comes to mind had nearly no tilt whatsoever
when extending free leg back.......



03 Apr 2006 14:35:43
Gordon
Re: Coaches are Scary People!


Yes. My first coach was a very accomplished ice dancer, and now
that's the image that's firmly in my mind when I skate. She has
beautiful posture and positions.

Janet wrote:
> What's fun is to have an instructor with feet in both disciplines teach
> you freestyle. Or an instructor who is primarily an ice dancer teach
> you freestyle. One who comes to mind had nearly no tilt whatsoever
> when extending free leg back.......