30 Oct 2005 09:34:02
oob
Possible AB XV for Cardiff

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=4&ObjectID=10352674

Seeing this selection all over the place. We'll know for sure on Tuesday,
but in the meantime;

Mils Muliaina
Rico Gear
Conrad Smith
Tana Umaga
Sitiveni Sivivatu
Dan Carter
Byron Kelleher
Rodney So'oialo
Chris Masoe
Jerry Collins
James Ryan
Chris Jack
Carl Hayman
Anton Oliver
Neemia Tialata

If true it reflects the expected pattern of an "almost" 1st XV for
Wales with some ringers, the same mixture for Ireland with different
players, an actual 1st XV for England and a 2nd XV for Scotland.

Missing definite first choice players Woodcock, Mealamu, Williams, McCaw,
Rokocoko with the debatable Weepu, Mauger, Howlett and L MacDonald amounts
to a lot of talent missing from the starting XV. Only two new caps in
Tialata and Masoe though.

Assuming the Cartel rests all of these guys for the next encounter, a
possible XV for Lansdowne Road could look like this;

Leon MacDonald
Joe Rokocoko
Ma'a Nonu
Aaron Mauger
Doug Howlett
Nick Evans
Piri Weepu
Mose Tuiali'i
Richie McCaw
Sione Lauaki
Ali Williams
Jason Eaton
John Afoa
Keven Mealamu
Tony Woodcock

Again, only two new caps in Afoa and Eaton, a side more than capable of
dealing with the Irish.





30 Oct 2005 08:25:09
rick boyd
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

oob wrote:
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=4&ObjectID=10352674
>
> Seeing this selection all over the place. We'll know for sure on Tuesday,
> but in the meantime;
>
> Mils Muliaina
> Rico Gear
> Conrad Smith
> Tana Umaga
> Sitiveni Sivivatu
> Dan Carter
> Byron Kelleher
> Rodney So'oialo
> Chris Masoe
> Jerry Collins
> James Ryan
> Chris Jack
> Carl Hayman
> Anton Oliver
> Neemia Tialata

If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different
All Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team,
and neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.

The annual end of season NH junket is silly enough in these times of 10
month saturation rugby but now it seems it is to be further reduced to
yet another training match for the World Cup.

How refreshing it was to read Grant Fox on 3 October saying:

"For starters, it might actually start to put some sanity back into the
rugby landscape where the World Cup has wrongly, in my opinion become
the be-all and end-all.

"Yes, the William Webb Ellis trophy is the biggest prize in our game and
it should be.

"But does it have to consume our thinking, our discussions and debates
on the game every damned year?"

The November tests are nothing but training runs, who cares if we win or
lose?

Sad.

-- rick boyd


30 Oct 2005 14:27:10
oob
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:25:09 +0800, rick boyd wrote:
> If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
> debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different
> All Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team,
> and neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.

You're right, that is the immediate outcome. One which does not sit well
with traditionalists and of course the players who miss out on caps
despite being the best player available.

The longer term outcome is that a best XV can be selected from a larger
pool of players than would otherwise be available, to coincide with the
most important matches.

The cultivation of that best XV via this method will lead to a better best
XV than the old method of always selecting the best player for each
position. Another advantage of this approach is that is raises the
standard of the domestic game, as there are many more players with AB
experience turning out in the domestic competitions.

I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know here. Thankfully we're
in a position to undertake such a broad development project without
risking our Test record too much. This approach would be bitterly hard to
take if it was costing us victories.

> The annual end of season NH junket is silly enough in these times of 10
> month saturation rugby but now it seems it is to be further reduced to
> yet another training match for the World Cup.

We're slow to the party. Every other rugby playing nation focuses on the
four year cycle while we have been trying to win each and every Test
match. I approve of the Cartel's strategies aimed at finding a
balance between consistent high standards and RWC success, despite the
extra element of risk.

> The November tests are nothing but training runs, who cares if we win or
> lose?

I do.


30 Oct 2005 15:36:55
Michael
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

What's with the selection of the Wellington loosies? Were they really that
good a trio in the super 12? Or is it just the 'versatility' of the players
being able to cover other positions?

"oob" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=4&ObjectID=10352674
>
> Seeing this selection all over the place. We'll know for sure on Tuesday,
> but in the meantime;
>
> Mils Muliaina
> Rico Gear
> Conrad Smith
> Tana Umaga
> Sitiveni Sivivatu
> Dan Carter
> Byron Kelleher
> Rodney So'oialo
> Chris Masoe
> Jerry Collins




30 Oct 2005 19:02:47
oob
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:36:55 +1000, Michael wrote:

> What's with the selection of the Wellington loosies? Were they really that
> good a trio in the super 12? Or is it just the 'versatility' of the players
> being able to cover other positions?
>
> "oob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=4&ObjectID=10352674
>>
>> Seeing this selection all over the place. We'll know for sure on Tuesday,
>> but in the meantime;
>>
>> Mils Muliaina
>> Rico Gear
>> Conrad Smith
>> Tana Umaga
>> Sitiveni Sivivatu
>> Dan Carter
>> Byron Kelleher
>> Rodney So'oialo
>> Chris Masoe
>> Jerry Collins

Masoe played for Taranaki. So'oialo and Collins are the AB incumbents. Top
posting is gay.


30 Oct 2005 17:02:21
Michael
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Yeah, I asked if they made a particularly good trio in the super 12, not
NPC.

"oob" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Masoe played for Taranaki. So'oialo and Collins are the AB incumbents.




30 Oct 2005 07:57:40
didgerman
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

rick boyd wrote:
> oob wrote:
>> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=4&ObjectID=10352674
>>
>> Seeing this selection all over the place. We'll know for sure on Tuesday,
>> but in the meantime;
>>
>> Mils Muliaina
>> Rico Gear Conrad Smith Tana Umaga Sitiveni Sivivatu Dan Carter Byron
>> Kelleher Rodney So'oialo Chris Masoe Jerry Collins James Ryan Chris
>> Jack Carl Hayman Anton Oliver Neemia Tialata
>
> If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
> debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different
> All Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team,
> and neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.
>
> The annual end of season NH junket is silly enough in these times of 10
> month saturation rugby but now it seems it is to be further reduced to
> yet another training match for the World Cup.
>
> How refreshing it was to read Grant Fox on 3 October saying:
>
> "For starters, it might actually start to put some sanity back into the
> rugby landscape where the World Cup has wrongly, in my opinion become
> the be-all and end-all.
>
> "Yes, the William Webb Ellis trophy is the biggest prize in our game and
> it should be.
>
> "But does it have to consume our thinking, our discussions and debates
> on the game every damned year?"

Sadly both yourself and wrong: it's the RWC that has lowered the
importance of other test matches, it's the club game. How can All Black
players be expected to perform at this stage of the season? Granted
they've had a far cruisier ride than the Lions, or the last English side
to go to NZ, but the damage was done by a packed club fixture list, with
no respite for national side players.

>
> The November tests are nothing but training runs, who cares if we win or
> lose?

Training or fund raisers, money grabbers I think. Oddly there was no
mention of this as NZ thumped England last time, helping the ABs to the
top of the IRB rankings, which must be pointless by your own admission.
However most of the NZ posters on here treated it like they'd just won
the RWC, and duly declared NZ the world's best.
And Greig wants us to believe that even Grannies in NZ have more idea
about rugby than fans in other countries? Pffft.

>
> Sad.

Truly depressing.

>
> -- rick boyd

Good to see you back, and as pre-armed with excuses as ever. I take it
if NZ leave here with 2 from 4 they will be undefeated?
It must be getting warm down there by now, watch that baldy head in the
sun old chap.


30 Oct 2005 01:16:31
couchpotatoe
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Oob said:


Seeing this selection all over the place. We'll know for sure on
Tuesday,
but in the meantime; ...



A front row consisting of Carl Hayman, Anton Oliver and Neemia Tialata
would rank along side any as one of the biggest in International Rugby.
Not sure about Tialata scrummaging prowess. Wellington put some pain
on the Canterbury scrum during the NPC but the the Red and Blacks are
not the best scrum around.

I know that the Welsh have been hit by injuried but this giame should
test the depth of both nations.



30 Oct 2005 21:16:52
Uncle Bully
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

> If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
> debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different All
> Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team, and
> neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.

You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in year
out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind hope to
win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have to develop
strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very sound plan, and
since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every chance of succeeding.
I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.





30 Oct 2005 12:27:29
Walter Mitty
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Uncle Bully wrote:
>>If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
>>debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different All
>>Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team, and
>>neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.
>
>
> You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in year
> out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind hope to
> win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have to develop
> strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very sound plan, and
> since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every chance of succeeding.
> I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
>


You'll wait *that* long? Wow. A patient fan ....

BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
there can't be 30 players just for the tests?


30 Oct 2005 04:22:56
Robi
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


Walter Mitty wrote:
> Uncle Bully wrote:
> >>If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
> >>debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different All
> >>Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team, and
> >>neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.
> >
> >
> > You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in year
> > out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind hope to
> > win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have to develop
> > strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very sound plan, and
> > since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every chance of succeeding.
> > I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
> >
>
>
> You'll wait *that* long? Wow. A patient fan ....
>
> BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
> there can't be 30 players just for the tests?

It seems to me that Graham Henry has set out his strategy fairly
clearly. He is concerned that, when it comes to a concentrated
competition like the World cup finals the teams with the greatest
player strength in depth have the best chance of winning. Henry is
developing a large squad of talented, experienced players. Correct me
if I'm wrong, but as I recall, part of the reason you haven't had the
World Cup success you might have is because you have had injuries to
key players at crucial stages and have had to replace them with players
that have not enough experience of playing for the team. Henry's
strategy is trying to negate this problem. Clearly winning games at
this stage is important too, self confidence is everything in sport.
Henry will be trying very hard to win these games. I think you should
applaud him.



30 Oct 2005 20:42:47
rick boyd
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Uncle Bully wrote:
>>If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
>>debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different All
>>Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team, and
>>neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.
>
>
> You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in year
> out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind hope to
> win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have to develop
> strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very sound plan, and
> since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every chance of succeeding.
> I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.

Yeah but when do the real All Blacks get to play, and when they do play,
how will they go when they haven't had time to gel as a team? I realise
Henry's plan is to have the whole fucking squad gelling like superglue
and be competletely interchangeable, but I think there is still a good
case for the 15 best players having the chance to produce the consistent
whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Still, if we go through the four home nations like a dose of magnesium
sulphate then I suppose no one will be complaining. But I don't see why,
if we HAVE to have two All Blacks teams, we can't play Wales and
ireland with the real All Blacks and insult England and Scotland by
letting them face the dirt trackers.

-- rick boyd


31 Oct 2005 01:59:02
oob
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:42:47 +0800, rick boyd wrote:
> Yeah but when do the real All Blacks get to play, and when they do play,
> how will they go when they haven't had time to gel as a team? I realise
> Henry's plan is to have the whole fucking squad gelling like superglue
> and be competletely interchangeable, but I think there is still a good
> case for the 15 best players having the chance to produce the consistent
> whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

I reckon the Cartel is going to settle on the 30 at the end of this tour.
If not, then at the end of the upcoming 3N at the latest. This will signal
the beginning of the next phase; the focus will be on building a
cohesive and experienced unit rather than on experimentation as we have
now. In short, I reckon these first two years of the Cartel has been one
long AB trial but it's close to over.

Players will still move in and out of the 30 but I think it will be much
more difficult than it is now. I can't foresee a bolter like Toeava
getting the nod for the next NH tour for instance. I expect the Cartel to
be doggedly loyal to players amongst the annointed 30 that are out of
form, giving them as much experience as possible pre-RWC.

> Still, if we go through the four home nations like a dose of magnesium
> sulphate then I suppose no one will be complaining. But I don't see why,
> if we HAVE to have two All Blacks teams, we can't play Wales and
> ireland with the real All Blacks and insult England and Scotland by
> letting them face the dirt trackers.

I want to see a full strength ABs deal to the English.


30 Oct 2005 13:16:20
JD
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Walter Mitty wrote:

> BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
> there can't be 30 players just for the tests?

Were the Lions developing depth Walter?


30 Oct 2005 13:17:35
JD
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

rick boyd wrote:
> oob wrote:
>
>> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=4&ObjectID=10352674
>>
>> Seeing this selection all over the place. We'll know for sure on Tuesday,
>> but in the meantime;
>>
>> Mils Muliaina
>> Rico Gear Conrad Smith Tana Umaga Sitiveni Sivivatu Dan Carter Byron
>> Kelleher Rodney So'oialo Chris Masoe Jerry Collins James Ryan Chris
>> Jack Carl Hayman Anton Oliver Neemia Tialata
>
>
> If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
> debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different
> All Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team,
> and neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.

Now that tests are all that are plyed, where do you expect the
development that used to happen on tours to occur?


30 Oct 2005 17:10:48
Walter Mitty
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Robi wrote:
> Walter Mitty wrote:
>
>>Uncle Bully wrote:
>>
>>>>If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
>>>>debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different All
>>>>Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team, and
>>>>neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.
>>>
>>>
>>>You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in year
>>>out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind hope to
>>>win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have to develop
>>>strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very sound plan, and
>>>since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every chance of succeeding.
>>>I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
>>>
>>
>>
>>You'll wait *that* long? Wow. A patient fan ....
>>
>>BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
>>there can't be 30 players just for the tests?
>
>
> It seems to me that Graham Henry has set out his strategy fairly
> clearly. He is concerned that, when it comes to a concentrated
> competition like the World cup finals the teams with the greatest
> player strength in depth have the best chance of winning.

Wasnt that more Woodwards fatal thought process for the Lions. Englands
team had virtually no depth but the BEST 15 tended to trot out (except
for that French game prior to RWC2003=. I agree with Boyd : you can
fanny around all you want, but at the end of the day you want your best
15 out there - its why its a first XV. All the romantic notions in the
world that Bully beats himself off to regarding NZs depth in strength
means jack if the players can't play together - and the odd 30 minutes
together aint enough for that.


30 Oct 2005 17:11:19
Walter Mitty
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

JD wrote:
> Walter Mitty wrote:
>
>> BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
>> there can't be 30 players just for the tests?
>
>
> Were the Lions developing depth Walter?

No. See previous reply.


30 Oct 2005 19:22:59
didgerman
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Walter Mitty wrote:
> Uncle Bully wrote:
>>> If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the
>>> further debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two
>>> different All Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national
>>> rugby team, and neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand
>>> can field.
>>
>>
>> You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in
>> year out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind
>> hope to win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have
>> to develop strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very
>> sound plan, and since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every
>> chance of succeeding.
>> I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
>>
>
>
> You'll wait *that* long? Wow. A patient fan ....
>
> BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
> there can't be 30 players just for the tests?

I know, it's hilarious. Pound for pound the ABs are bringing far more
players than the Lions.


31 Oct 2005 06:14:24
rick boyd
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Robi wrote:


> It seems to me that Graham Henry has set out his strategy fairly
> clearly. He is concerned that, when it comes to a concentrated
> competition like the World cup finals the teams with the greatest
> player strength in depth have the best chance of winning. Henry is
> developing a large squad of talented, experienced players. Correct me
> if I'm wrong, but as I recall, part of the reason you haven't had the
> World Cup success you might have is because you have had injuries to
> key players at crucial stages and have had to replace them with players
> that have not enough experience of playing for the team.

More like players who have not had enough experience playing in the
position. Cullen at centre in 1999, MacDonald at centre in 2003.

But the real reason New Zealand hasn't had world cup success is simply
that it is a knockout tournament and any team can win on the day given a
variety of factors, depth of players not being foremost on the day.
Playing like crap, bad luck and the luck of the draw would be topping
the list in my book.

-- rick boyd


30 Oct 2005 23:56:03
Walter Mitty
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

rick boyd wrote:
>
> But the real reason New Zealand hasn't had world cup success is simply
> that it is a knockout tournament and any team can win on the day given a
> variety of factors, depth of players not being foremost on the day.
> Playing like crap, bad luck and the luck of the draw would be topping
> the list in my book.
>

I could think of no other reasons for losing in fact : you can't be wrong.


31 Oct 2005 20:01:32
Greig Blanchett
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 19:22:59 GMT, didgerman <[email protected] >
wrote:

>Walter Mitty wrote:
>> Uncle Bully wrote:
>>>> If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the
>>>> further debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two
>>>> different All Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national
>>>> rugby team, and neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand
>>>> can field.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in
>>> year out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind
>>> hope to win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have
>>> to develop strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very
>>> sound plan, and since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every
>>> chance of succeeding.
>>> I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
>>>
>>
>>
>> You'll wait *that* long? Wow. A patient fan ....
>>
>> BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
>> there can't be 30 players just for the tests?
>
>I know, it's hilarious. Pound for pound the ABs are bringing far more
>players than the Lions.

How do you figure that? Divide the number of players by the number of
tests, and NZ comes out to about 8, the Lions about 15. SCW had enough
players to form a complete new team for each test if he'd wanted.
Henry has to double up. Now if you'd just said "pound for pound, the
ABs are bringing far BETTER players than the Lions", you'd have been
right on the money.

--
greig


31 Oct 2005 01:15:02
couchpotatoe
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Michael said:"What's with the selection of the Wellington loosies?
...."


Two of them are AB incumbents and are no surprise. Masoe if picked at
7 would presumable be there by virtue of his versatility, as he has
played mostly 8 for the 'naki in the NPC. Having said that he was very
good with the ball in hand and defensively. More of Henry going for
ball runners rather than fetchers in the Hola mold.



31 Oct 2005 01:17:53
couchpotatoe
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

didgerman wrote:


"Pound for pound the ABs are bringing far more
players than the Lions."

This does not make sense. Either mixing your metaphors or tangling
your trolls. One or t'other.



31 Oct 2005 20:26:00
Michael
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

So'olialo has been experimented with at 7 too, hasn't he? I wonder where
they'll play, if indeed all 3 are picked. Could Collins play at 8?

"couchpotatoe" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Two of them are AB incumbents and are no surprise. Masoe if picked at
> 7 would presumable be there by virtue of his versatility, as he has
> played mostly 8 for the 'naki in the NPC. Having said that he was very
> good with the ball in hand and defensively. More of Henry going for
> ball runners rather than fetchers in the Hola mold.




31 Oct 2005 21:56:18
Uncle Bully
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

> All the romantic notions in the world that Bully beats himself off to
> regarding NZs depth in strength means jack if the players can't play
> together - and the odd 30 minutes together aint enough for that.

It seemed to be enough for the 3N, Bled and Lions tour. Oh but then you're
living in Rhetoric world aren't you Mitty. The harsh truths of reality are
not welcome up there....




31 Oct 2005 02:58:12
couchpotatoe
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Michhael said:

"So'olialo has been experimented with at 7 too, hasn't he?"

The experiment was not a success in my humble opinion. So'olialo has
been proven a jack of all trades and master of none.



31 Oct 2005 22:05:04
Uncle Bully
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


>> You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in
>> year
>> out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind hope to
>> win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have to develop
>> strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very sound plan,
>> and since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every chance of
>> succeeding.
>> I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
>
> Yeah but when do the real All Blacks get to play, and when they do play,
> how will they go when they haven't had time to gel as a team? I realise
> Henry's plan is to have the whole fucking squad gelling like superglue and
> be competletely interchangeable, but I think there is still a good case
> for the 15 best players having the chance to produce the consistent whole
> that is greater than the sum of its parts.
>
> Still, if we go through the four home nations like a dose of magnesium
> sulphate then I suppose no one will be complaining. But I don't see why,
> if we HAVE to have two All Blacks teams, we can't play Wales and ireland
> with the real All Blacks and insult England and Scotland by letting them
> face the dirt trackers.

I expect it'll be closer to a first XI with perhap 4 fillers. This is a good
mix as you have enough of your top guys to bring the others up to speed. The
trick is in the balance and so far Henry seems to be doing everything right.





31 Oct 2005 22:08:45
Uncle Bully
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


"Michael" <[email protected]@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> So'olialo has been experimented with at 7 too, hasn't he? I wonder where
> they'll play, if indeed all 3 are picked. Could Collins play at 8?

Indeed he could. IIRC, his AB debut was at 8 and in his brief stint there he
managed to put both Colin Charvis and Toutai Kefu in hospital
(legitimately). It was there that he earnt the nickname "The Jerminator".





31 Oct 2005 11:15:47
didgerman
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

rick boyd wrote:
> Robi wrote:
>
>
>> It seems to me that Graham Henry has set out his strategy fairly
>> clearly. He is concerned that, when it comes to a concentrated
>> competition like the World cup finals the teams with the greatest
>> player strength in depth have the best chance of winning. Henry is
>> developing a large squad of talented, experienced players. Correct me
>> if I'm wrong, but as I recall, part of the reason you haven't had the
>> World Cup success you might have is because you have had injuries to
>> key players at crucial stages and have had to replace them with players
>> that have not enough experience of playing for the team.
>
> More like players who have not had enough experience playing in the
> position. Cullen at centre in 1999, MacDonald at centre in 2003.
>
> But the real reason New Zealand hasn't had world cup success is simply
> that it is a knockout tournament and any team can win on the day given a
> variety of factors, depth of players not being foremost on the day.
> Playing like crap, bad luck and the luck of the draw would be topping
> the list in my book.
>
> -- rick boyd

NZ must be the unluckiest country in the tournament then, no wonder you
moved.....


31 Oct 2005 11:17:13
didgerman
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

couchpotatoe wrote:
> didgerman wrote:
>
>
> "Pound for pound the ABs are bringing far more
> players than the Lions."
>
> This does not make sense. Either mixing your metaphors or tangling
> your trolls. One or t'other.
>

I never tangle my trolls, not be a long chalk of cheese.


31 Oct 2005 11:18:40
didgerman
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Greig Blanchett wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 19:22:59 GMT, didgerman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Walter Mitty wrote:
>>> Uncle Bully wrote:
>>>>> If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the
>>>>> further debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two
>>>>> different All Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national
>>>>> rugby team, and neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand
>>>>> can field.
>>>>
>>>> You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in
>>>> year out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind
>>>> hope to win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have
>>>> to develop strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very
>>>> sound plan, and since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every
>>>> chance of succeeding.
>>>> I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You'll wait *that* long? Wow. A patient fan ....
>>>
>>> BTW, How many mid week games are you playing on your NH tour? Surely
>>> there can't be 30 players just for the tests?
>> I know, it's hilarious. Pound for pound the ABs are bringing far more
>> players than the Lions.
>
> How do you figure that? Divide the number of players by the number of
> tests, and NZ comes out to about 8, the Lions about 15. SCW had enough
> players to form a complete new team for each test if he'd wanted.
> Henry has to double up. Now if you'd just said "pound for pound, the
> ABs are bringing far BETTER players than the Lions", you'd have been
> right on the money.
>
> --
> greig

That would work, well done. However, we both know that at least half the
players the Lions took were never intended for the test team. But hey,
these tours are holidays, so why not bring the whole bunch...


01 Nov 2005 00:39:24
oob
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 02:58:12 -0800, couchpotatoe wrote:

> Michhael said:
>
> "So'olialo has been experimented with at 7 too, hasn't he?"
>
> The experiment was not a success in my humble opinion.

He played openside in the 3rd Lions Test. I agree that it was less than
stellar but perhaps our expectations are unreasonable given the quality
of the blokes we're used to seeing there.

> So'olialo has been proven a jack of all trades and master of none.

I think he plays the backup fetcher roles rather well and that it's a role
that is required, particularly after watching McCaw struggle against
Blakie and Newbie with such little breakdown support from Tuiali'i and
Thorne.


31 Oct 2005 13:55:37
Walter Mitty
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Uncle Bully wrote:
>>All the romantic notions in the world that Bully beats himself off to
>>regarding NZs depth in strength means jack if the players can't play
>>together - and the odd 30 minutes together aint enough for that.
>
>
> It seemed to be enough for the 3N, Bled and Lions tour. Oh but then you're
> living in Rhetoric world aren't you Mitty. The harsh truths of reality are
> not welcome up there....
>

How much cycling did he do?

The Blew was a bloody close thing : you do remember dont you? The 3N
were bloody close too.

The ABs are awesome : but they're not that awesome - a stable first XV
is required for greatness.


31 Oct 2005 13:57:17
Walter Mitty
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Greig Blanchett wrote:

> How do you figure that? Divide the number of players by the number of
> tests, and NZ comes out to about 8, the Lions about 15.


You're forgetting midweek games which SCW used to "blood" most of his
useless 30. The other useless 15 were intended for the weekend games :-;


31 Oct 2005 05:35:51
simon s-b
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


rick boyd wrote:
> Uncle Bully wrote:
> >>If these projected teams are accurate, it just means to me the further
> >>debasement of international rugby. What we have here is two different All
> >>Blacks teams, both playing as the New Zealand national rugby team, and
> >>neither actually being the best XV that New Zealand can field.
> >
> >
> > You can't expect the same 15 blokes to turn out to every test year in year
> > out. To be consistently successful, you can't just rely on blind hope to
> > win everything. As the competition gets tougher, so you have to develop
> > strategies to deal with it. Henry's 30 man A team is a very sound plan, and
> > since we have the depth to pull it off, it has every chance of succeeding.
> > I'll wait until after the Welsh game before I bring the knives out.
>
> Yeah but when do the real All Blacks get to play, and when they do play,
> how will they go when they haven't had time to gel as a team? I realise
> Henry's plan is to have the whole fucking squad gelling like superglue
> and be competletely interchangeable, but I think there is still a good
> case for the 15 best players having the chance to produce the consistent
> whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.
>
> Still, if we go through the four home nations like a dose of magnesium
> sulphate then I suppose no one will be complaining. But I don't see why,
> if we HAVE to have two All Blacks teams, we can't play Wales and
> ireland with the real All Blacks and insult England and Scotland by
> letting them face the dirt trackers.
>
> -- rick boyd

I agree. Englands XV from the two year run up to the RWC was very
settled. You could easily argue that it was not the best XV individuals
that were fielded, but the consistency payed huge dividends in that
they beat more skillfill teams through better organisation and teamwork
- which ultimately came through playing a lot of games together.
Imagine if a team with skill did it.



31 Oct 2005 06:26:27
GHFAN
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

couchpotatoe > "The experiment was not a success in my humble opinion.
So'olialo has been proven a jack of all trades and master of none.

I think So'olialo is exactly the type of player Henry wants.
Exceptional athlete, tough always close to the breakdown and rarely
gets hurt.



01 Nov 2005 07:18:45
Greig Blanchett
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:17:13 GMT, didgerman <[email protected] >
wrote:

>couchpotatoe wrote:
>> didgerman wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Pound for pound the ABs are bringing far more
>> players than the Lions."
>>
>> This does not make sense. Either mixing your metaphors or tangling
>> your trolls. One or t'other.
>>
>
>I never tangle my trolls, not be a long chalk of cheese.

Heh!

--
greig


31 Oct 2005 13:16:04
JohnO
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


Walter Mitty wrote:
> Uncle Bully wrote:
> >>All the romantic notions in the world that Bully beats himself off to
> >>regarding NZs depth in strength means jack if the players can't play
> >>together - and the odd 30 minutes together aint enough for that.
> >
> >
> > It seemed to be enough for the 3N, Bled and Lions tour. Oh but then you're
> > living in Rhetoric world aren't you Mitty. The harsh truths of reality are
> > not welcome up there....
> >
>
> How much cycling did he do?
>
> The Blew was a bloody close thing : you do remember dont you? The 3N
> were bloody close too.
>
> The ABs are awesome : but they're not that awesome - a stable first XV
> is required for greatness.

I'm a tad concerned about this. Henry is adamant that preparing a squad
for RWC07 is more important that the GS. I'd prefer he concentrated on
the GS for now and start the RWC07 buildup afterwards.

By insiting on playing all his squad on the GS tour he's making a
similar problem to that of SCW on the Lions tour; the test 15 is never
a settled combination.



31 Oct 2005 13:19:00
JohnO
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


Uncle Bully wrote:
> > All the romantic notions in the world that Bully beats himself off to
> > regarding NZs depth in strength means jack if the players can't play
> > together - and the odd 30 minutes together aint enough for that.
>
> It seemed to be enough for the 3N, Bled and Lions tour. Oh but then you're
> living in Rhetoric world aren't you Mitty. The harsh truths of reality are
> not welcome up there....

The AB's played a reasonably settled XV for these series. Changes were
made as forced by injuries, rather than a desire to give every man in
the enlarged squad a start.



01 Nov 2005 08:30:18
John Hill
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

On 31 Oct 2005 13:16:04 -0800, "JohnO" <[email protected] > wrote:

>> The Blew was a bloody close thing : you do remember dont you? The 3N
>> were bloody close too.
>>
>> The ABs are awesome : but they're not that awesome - a stable first XV
>> is required for greatness.
>
>I'm a tad concerned about this. Henry is adamant that preparing a squad
>for RWC07 is more important that the GS. I'd prefer he concentrated on
>the GS for now and start the RWC07 buildup afterwards.
>
>By insiting on playing all his squad on the GS tour he's making a
>similar problem to that of SCW on the Lions tour; the test 15 is never
>a settled combination.


Attempted GS tour or GS attempt

JH


01 Nov 2005 19:26:59
Uncle Bully
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


"didgerman" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> rick boyd wrote:
>> Robi wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It seems to me that Graham Henry has set out his strategy fairly
>>> clearly. He is concerned that, when it comes to a concentrated
>>> competition like the World cup finals the teams with the greatest
>>> player strength in depth have the best chance of winning. Henry is
>>> developing a large squad of talented, experienced players. Correct me
>>> if I'm wrong, but as I recall, part of the reason you haven't had the
>>> World Cup success you might have is because you have had injuries to
>>> key players at crucial stages and have had to replace them with players
>>> that have not enough experience of playing for the team.
>>
>> More like players who have not had enough experience playing in the
>> position. Cullen at centre in 1999, MacDonald at centre in 2003.
>>
>> But the real reason New Zealand hasn't had world cup success is simply
>> that it is a knockout tournament and any team can win on the day given a
>> variety of factors, depth of players not being foremost on the day.
>> Playing like crap, bad luck and the luck of the draw would be topping the
>> list in my book.
>>
>> -- rick boyd
>
> NZ must be the unluckiest country in the tournament then, no wonder you
> moved.....

Didge, we understand that not making the semis is acceptable in England, but
this ia global forum, do try to be consistent with your adjectives.




01 Nov 2005 13:55:08
Walter Mitty
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

JohnO wrote:
> Uncle Bully wrote:
>
>>>All the romantic notions in the world that Bully beats himself off to
>>>regarding NZs depth in strength means jack if the players can't play
>>>together - and the odd 30 minutes together aint enough for that.
>>
>>It seemed to be enough for the 3N, Bled and Lions tour. Oh but then you're
>>living in Rhetoric world aren't you Mitty. The harsh truths of reality are
>>not welcome up there....
>
>
> The AB's played a reasonably settled XV for these series. Changes were
> made as forced by injuries, rather than a desire to give every man in
> the enlarged squad a start.
>

Its OK, Bully "is prepared" to give Henry until the first test against
Wales to prove his technique ..... /smirk.


01 Nov 2005 21:15:43
Andy Mulhearn
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Uncle Bully wrote:
>
> Didge, we understand that not making the semis is acceptable in England, but
> this ia global forum, do try to be consistent with your adjectives.
>
>

I'm going to ask you this again, and expect the same response as before,
i.e. none at all, but what is it that makes you think that not making
the semis of the RWC is acceptable to England supporters?

Andy


03 Nov 2005 09:02:13
Uncle Bully
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff


"Andy Mulhearn" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Uncle Bully wrote:
>>
>> Didge, we understand that not making the semis is acceptable in England,
>> but this ia global forum, do try to be consistent with your adjectives.
>
> I'm going to ask you this again, and expect the same response as before,
> i.e. none at all, but what is it that makes you think that not making the
> semis of the RWC is acceptable to England supporters?

I can only assume that if NZ is the "unluckiest" country, and that we "fail"
at RWC, then you must consider your own performances lucky and successful?
How else could you read it?




02 Nov 2005 22:09:27
The Green Phantom
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Uncle Bully wrote:
> "Andy Mulhearn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>>Uncle Bully wrote:
>>
>>>Didge, we understand that not making the semis is acceptable in England,
>>>but this ia global forum, do try to be consistent with your adjectives.
>>
>>I'm going to ask you this again, and expect the same response as before,
>>i.e. none at all, but what is it that makes you think that not making the
>>semis of the RWC is acceptable to England supporters?
>
>
> I can only assume that if NZ is the "unluckiest" country, and that we "fail"
> at RWC, then you must consider your own performances lucky and successful?
> How else could you read it?

I often think yjay your understanding of English is at variance with
anyone else on the planet Dully. In what conceivable way can you
misunderstand Andy's query?

When he says 'what is it that makes you think that not making the semis
of the RWC is acceptable to England supporters?' there's no room for
ambiguity or doubt. It's as clear as the nose on your face. (You do have
a nose, don't you? And a mirror?)

Staggering.

regards

The Green Phantom


02 Nov 2005 22:14:19
Andy Mulhearn
Re: Possible AB XV for Cardiff

Uncle Bully wrote:
> "Andy Mulhearn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Uncle Bully wrote:
>>> Didge, we understand that not making the semis is acceptable in England,
>>> but this ia global forum, do try to be consistent with your adjectives.
>> I'm going to ask you this again, and expect the same response as before,
>> i.e. none at all, but what is it that makes you think that not making the
>> semis of the RWC is acceptable to England supporters?
>
> I can only assume that if NZ is the "unluckiest" country, and that we "fail"
> at RWC, then you must consider your own performances lucky and successful?
> How else could you read it?
>
>

Well I know the words are English because I recognise them and
Thunderbird doesn't mark them as misspellings, but what you just wrote
makes no sense at all.

Andy