18 Feb 2007 09:06:23
[email protected]
Catalina race

Anyone have a link to a site where I can get an idea of how fast these
boy go in the MDR to Catalina race? It can take six to eight hours to
make the crossing on a sailboat. I've been wondering what sort of
punishment these guys endure to make the crossing while sculling.

-Martin



18 Feb 2007 09:53:48
Charles Carroll
Re: Catalina race

> Anyone have a link to a site where I can get an idea of how fast these
> boy go in the MDR to Catalina race? It can take six to eight hours to

Martin,

http://www.row2k.com/results/resultspage.cfm?UID=2920714&cat=2.

This is not a race for the inexperienced.

Ken Robinson, last year's winner, rows out of OWRC in Sausalito. He is an
extraordinary sculler. Confident, strong, experienced in open water, Ken
possesses a powerful stroke and a near flawless technique. But even with
these considerable skills and gifts, his winning time was over six hours!

Martin, you must be in excellent physical condition to do this. It is over
30 nautical miles of Open Ocean. The water can be daunting.

Another thing to think about is that it can be expensive. Every shell must
be accompanied by its own launch, and participants are expected to pay for
the launch that follows them.

Nutrition also is a serious factor. A major factor!

I know people who sometimes lurk on rsr. They have done the Catalina
Crossing many times. Maybe one of them can be persuaded to post their
thoughts on it.

Cordially,

Charles




18 Feb 2007 23:58:08
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> http://www.row2k.com/results/resultspage.cfm?UID=2920714&cat=2.

Thanks.

> This is not a race for the inexperienced.

Wouldn't dare think so.

> Martin, you must be in excellent physical condition to do this. It is over
> 30 nautical miles of Open Ocean. The water can be daunting.

It's in eight months, right? :-)

> Nutrition also is a serious factor. A major factor!

Nutrition is a factor whether you participate in athletic activities
or not, isn't it? My wife has a Masters' in Nutrition. We speak
nutrition at home, belive you me we do!

> I know people who sometimes lurk on rsr. They have done the Catalina
> Crossing many times. Maybe one of them can be persuaded to post their
> thoughts on it.

That'd be nice.


My rowing sessions have reached about four hours nearly non-stop a
couple of times a week (weekends). And, for better or worst, where I
row winds in the 15 to 35mph range are a fact of life...so you kind of
learn to live with them. I don't have any data on performance
though. Now that I have some idea of what Catalina race participants
do it'd be interesting to compare just as a mental exercise. I'll
probably get a GPS and develop a better idea of just how bad I must be
doing!

Am I thinking of entering a 30 mile open water race? Not really. At
least not seriously. I wouldn't know what the heck I'd be getting
into. It's nice to think of something like that as a mental challenge
though.

Let's put it this way, before I even consider something like this I'd
expect to have rowed the periphery of our upper lake (about 20 miles
if you follow a fairly straight route) a few times. I can't see
attempting that for another three or four months (at least).

I wonder if a twin-hulled craft like the Rowcat or Skimmer would have
an advantage in such a race. Rough water rowing requires compromising
stroke rate, length, even technique, it seems, in order to attend to
stability. With an inherently stable craft you might just be able to
row full length, full power strokes. Furthermore, you'd be able to
keep your blades well above the water surface on the recovery. Any
contact with water in order to stay upright robs you of speed. I
wonder.

-Martin



19 Feb 2007 00:12:33
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> http://www.row2k.com/results/resultspage.cfm?UID=2920714&cat=2.

Some comments from looking at the results:

1- I can't believe that someone rowed for 13.5 hours. Whew! Give him
a medal!

2- Seeing a 21 foot wherry come in 3rd. is interesting. Performance
was 15% slower than the leader of the pack. For some reason it feels
impressive to me. I would have expected it to be no contest by far,
far more than 15%. I certainly would have expected to have seen the
wherry behind the pack of Maas racing boats. Who makes this boat?
Anyone have a link? Might be a nice family/hybrid craft?

Of course, what's missing is data from the same exact rower on a Maas
24 and the wherry in order to understand the results.

3- It's interesting that the 2X's didn't blow away the 1X's by a lot
more. Man or machine? Or was it rough water conditions limiting
technique and, therefore, performance?

What are typical Olympic class speeds for 1X and 2X boats on flat
water with similarly capable scullers?


- Martin




19 Feb 2007 10:02:53
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: Catalina race

On 19 Feb 2007 00:12:33 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
> What are typical Olympic class speeds for 1X and 2X boats on flat
> water with similarly capable scullers?

http://www.rowing.biddulph.btinternet.co.uk/besttime.htm

--
E. Dronkert


19 Feb 2007 14:06:10
Kieran
Re: Catalina race

[email protected] wrote:
>> http://www.row2k.com/results/resultspage.cfm?UID=2920714&cat=2.
>
> Some comments from looking at the results:
>
> 1- I can't believe that someone rowed for 13.5 hours. Whew! Give him
> a medal!
>
> 2- Seeing a 21 foot wherry come in 3rd. is interesting. Performance
> was 15% slower than the leader of the pack. For some reason it feels
> impressive to me. I would have expected it to be no contest by far,
> far more than 15%. I certainly would have expected to have seen the
> wherry behind the pack of Maas racing boats. Who makes this boat?
> Anyone have a link? Might be a nice family/hybrid craft?
>
> Of course, what's missing is data from the same exact rower on a Maas
> 24 and the wherry in order to understand the results.
>
> 3- It's interesting that the 2X's didn't blow away the 1X's by a lot
> more. Man or machine? Or was it rough water conditions limiting
> technique and, therefore, performance?
>
> What are typical Olympic class speeds for 1X and 2X boats on flat
> water with similarly capable scullers?
>
>
> - Martin
>
>

I seem to recall doing the math one time on the distance of the Catalina
race, and the winning time, to get the average 500m split, and it was
amazingly fast.... in the 1:40's/500m IIRC. This was for results from a
race in the late 90's, and I think the conditions were very good that
day or something.

-Kieran


19 Feb 2007 07:48:53
Rob
Re: Catalina race

"Nutrition" in this context means nutrition DURING the event. There's
a whole science to this (evolving still). I did several Ironman
triathlons and running marathons in the nineties (as well as some
ultra-rowing more recently) and I would go so far as to say that the
nutrition is as important as the training! Or at least it's as
difficult to get it right. I never have felt I nailed it, quite.
Well, perhaps my 42,195 record ergs, which were done on gatorade
spiked with lite salt (part potassium). That was 2.5 hrs plus.
Beyond that time frame things are FAR trickier. You've got to consume
protein. You've got to find some product whose taste is palatable in
the state you're in. It's hard to do trials of your nutrition plan
without overtraining. Etc etc.

I've had some success with stuff from

hammernutrition.com

One other key to a long row is the blisters on the hands: I apply
petroleum jelly on my palms and put batting gloves over them. Works
like a charm. Re-apply the stuff every couple of hours. I don't have
the answer on the sore butt, however.


>
> > Nutrition also is a serious factor. A major factor!
>
> Nutrition is a factor whether you participate in athletic activities
> or not, isn't it? My wife has a Masters' in Nutrition. We speak
> nutrition at home, belive you me we do!
>





19 Feb 2007 09:17:31
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> "Nutrition" in this context means nutrition DURING the event. There's
> a whole science to this (evolving still). I did several Ironman
> triathlons and running marathons in the nineties (as well as some
> ultra-rowing more recently) and I would go so far as to say that the
> nutrition is as important as the training!

OK. Now it makes sense.

Interesting read: "The Fullness of Wings" by Gary Dorsey. It's the
story behind the Daedalus human powered aircraft. One of my friends
from MIT was part of the design team. This was a channel crossing in
the Mediterranean. They needed to find a cyclist who could output the
required power for the time of the flight (I don't remember how long,
but it took a while). Nutrition during the flight was of paramount
importance. They developed some Gatorade-like concoction to keep the
pilot/power-plant going strong. They did make the flight, which ended
with a mild crash...the poor fellow must have just given up once he
knew he was safely on land.

-Martin



19 Feb 2007 09:26:00
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> http://www.rowing.biddulph.btinternet.co.uk/besttime.htm

This is interesting. I am going to guess that the 1X's are already
being operated significantly above hull speed, which requires lots of
power. This would explain why the 2X's and 4X's don't have notably
faster performance...yes, twice or three times the power, but above
hull speed the performance increase if far from linear.

Which leads to a question: For long distance events (hours of rowing)
I would imagine that there's a critical combination of target speed
coupled to rigging setup (leverage) that might provide the best
"impedance match" to the athlete in question. This could have huge
impact over a race lasting several hours.

I guess what I am saying is that, while it is about the athlete, a
poorly setup boat --one that ignores the physics of the affair and
does not match the task or the person-- can have great impact on the
performance that can be achieved.

How much do long-distance rowers tinker with boat setup in order to
find the right configuration?

I also wonder if having the ability to adjust rigging on the go might
be of value.

-Martin




19 Feb 2007 10:09:54
Charles Carroll
Re: Catalina race

> Interesting read: "The Fullness of Wings" by Gary Dorsey. It's the
> story behind the Daedalus human powered aircraft. One of my friends
> from MIT was part of the design team. This was a channel crossing in
> the Mediterranean. They needed to find a cyclist who could output the
> required power for the time of the flight (I don't remember how long,
> but it took a while). Nutrition during the flight was of paramount
> importance. They developed some Gatorade-like concoction to keep the
> pilot/power-plant going strong. They did make the flight, which ended
> with a mild crash...the poor fellow must have just given up once he
> knew he was safely on land.


Martin,

Rob Slocum knows what he is talking about. He is an endurance athlete who
holds the world record for the erg for HW Men 50-60 years of age for a full
marathon distance, i.e. 42195 meters. He ergged that distance in 2:31:59.9.
Just astonishing!

By the way, the Catalina Crossing is 30.8 NM, or 57041.6 meters. You are
very new to all this. I wonder if for a novice like yourself eight months is
enough training time. Anyway, just think of the longest distance you have
ever ergged, then compare this distance to a 57K erg. Then think of doing a
57K in open ocean. Conditions for last years Catalina Crossing were
"Headwind and Rough Chop."

I have two more Websites for you to look at. They both address the issue of
nutrition.

http://www.owrc.com/nutrition/RowingNutrition.html
http://www.eat4fitness.com/

The eat4fitness site is Sunny Blende's webpage. The RowingNutrition page is
Sunny's advice for training diets,etc.

Look on Row2K's results page for last year's crossing and you will see that
Sunny Blende with Kellee McDonald rowed a Women's 2X in that event. (Time:
6:24:30) Sunny rows out of my Club in Sausalito, OWRC, and is an excellent
sports nutritionist, and has rowed the Catalina Crossing a number of times.
She is also a very nice person. If you are seriously thinking about training
for the Catalina Crossing, you might want to get in touch with her. My guess
is that she will have a lot to say.

Cordially,

Charles




19 Feb 2007 10:22:05
Charles Carroll
Re: Catalina race

> 1- I can't believe that someone rowed for 13.5 hours. Whew! Give him
> a medal!

Martin

I think, if memory serves me correctly, that the 13.5 hours was also a
wherry type boat and that there were three people in it. I believe it was
Charles Hathaway and his two sons. But please don't hold my feet to the fire
on this.

By the way, Charles Hathaway's story is interesting. Hathaway was the first
man "officially" to row from Marina Del Ray to Catalina. He did this 30
years ago to celebrate his 50th birthday. That's right! Last year Hathaway
was 80 years old and rowed to Catalina to celebrate his 80th birthday. If
you actually do the race you will meet some amazing people. Last year was
the 30th Anniversary of the Catalina Crossing.

Cordially,

Charles




19 Feb 2007 18:16:15
Carl
Re: Catalina race

[email protected] wrote:
>>http://www.rowing.biddulph.btinternet.co.uk/besttime.htm
>
>
> This is interesting. I am going to guess that the 1X's are already
> being operated significantly above hull speed, which requires lots of
> power. This would explain why the 2X's and 4X's don't have notably
> faster performance...yes, twice or three times the power, but above
> hull speed the performance increase if far from linear.
>
> Which leads to a question: For long distance events (hours of rowing)
> I would imagine that there's a critical combination of target speed
> coupled to rigging setup (leverage) that might provide the best
> "impedance match" to the athlete in question. This could have huge
> impact over a race lasting several hours.
>
> I guess what I am saying is that, while it is about the athlete, a
> poorly setup boat --one that ignores the physics of the affair and
> does not match the task or the person-- can have great impact on the
> performance that can be achieved.
>
> How much do long-distance rowers tinker with boat setup in order to
> find the right configuration?
>
> I also wonder if having the ability to adjust rigging on the go might
> be of value.
>
> -Martin
>
>

You will find that the performance of fine shells is much less limited
by wave drag than displacement hulls of lower length/beam ratio. You
will note, also, that sculling achieves significantly better performance
than sweep.

However, without changing rig a rower or, especially, a sculler has
great scope for altering their effective gearing to accommodate for
events of different duration. What you are dealing with is the
exponential & substantial decay of human mean power output capacity with
event duration, rather than big changes in boat speed, since power
absorption at top speed varies to a power of velocity rather greater than 3.

A rower can vary load, stroke length & stroke/recovery ratio very easily
to match their physical capability to the duty, & that is their built-in
ability to adjust "on the go". That is fortunate, because it is
impossible to change the mechanical gearing of the rig by even as much
as a cyclist will get from a single gear shift.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: [email protected] Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


19 Feb 2007 10:38:55
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> By the way, the Catalina Crossing is 30.8 NM, or 57041.6 meters. You are
> very new to all this. I wonder if for a novice like yourself eight months is
> enough training time. Anyway, just think of the longest distance you have
> ever ergged, then compare this distance to a 57K erg. Then think of doing a
> 57K in open ocean. Conditions for last years Catalina Crossing were
> "Headwind and Rough Chop."

Just in case I wasn't clear, the idea of having such an event in mind
is appealing to me. That does not mean that I have it as a goal this
year. It does mean that I am competitive and interested in just what
it takes to complete such an event. It is nice to have a sense of
proportion and something to compare against as I progress in my
rowing. I might operate as though I am very casually training to be
able to do that sort of distance by September as a fitness goal --with
the full understanding that the performance level won't match that of
accomplished/experienced rowers. For me going into such a race right
now would be like that poor fellow crossing the Tasman: ignorant, ill-
prepared and doing it for the wrong reasons.

BTW, I couldn't row 57K on an erg in one sitting even if I was fit
enough to do it. The darn thing bores me to death. I can stand it
for 45 minutes, maybe an hour. At the end of the day, I'd rather be
on water. I can row for hours at the lake. I did so for a little
over four hours on Saturday and Sunday...sore butt and blitered hands,
other than that, it was a blast.

-Martin



19 Feb 2007 19:51:37
Chris Kerr
Re: Catalina race

[email protected] wrote:

>> By the way, the Catalina Crossing is 30.8 NM, or 57041.6 meters. You are
>> very new to all this. I wonder if for a novice like yourself eight months
>> is enough training time. Anyway, just think of the longest distance you
>> have ever ergged, then compare this distance to a 57K erg. Then think of
>> doing a 57K in open ocean. Conditions for last years Catalina Crossing
>> were "Headwind and Rough Chop."
>
> Just in case I wasn't clear, the idea of having such an event in mind
> is appealing to me. That does not mean that I have it as a goal this
> year. It does mean that I am competitive and interested in just what
> it takes to complete such an event. It is nice to have a sense of
> proportion and something to compare against as I progress in my
> rowing. I might operate as though I am very casually training to be
> able to do that sort of distance by September as a fitness goal --with
> the full understanding that the performance level won't match that of
> accomplished/experienced rowers. For me going into such a race right
> now would be like that poor fellow crossing the Tasman: ignorant, ill-
> prepared and doing it for the wrong reasons.
>
> BTW, I couldn't row 57K on an erg in one sitting even if I was fit
> enough to do it. The darn thing bores me to death. I can stand it
> for 45 minutes, maybe an hour.
Agreed. The only way to be able to stand 57K on an erg is to watch a film
(or do something similarly distracting), although you will need subtitles
if you don't want to play it loud enough for the entire neighbourhood to
hear. I think I once managed something around that distance watching an
extended edition (with all the deleted scenes) of one of the 'Lord of the
Rings' films. It wasn't pleasant, though, and I don't think I will do it
again - 2 hours is about the maximum that I can take comfortably.

> At the end of the day, I'd rather be
> on water. I can row for hours at the lake. I did so for a little
> over four hours on Saturday and Sunday...sore butt and blitered hands,
> other than that, it was a blast.
>
> -Martin

For more info about nutrition and training for long-distance rowing races
(albeit not rough-water), you could look at some of the past threads about
the Boston Rowing Marathon - for example last year's at
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.rowing/browse_thread/thread/80f4cb3c7c5beb63



19 Feb 2007 12:22:44
Rob
Re: Catalina race

Re newbie Catalina crossing I would urge trying something more
modest. Even if you happened to nail the fitness and you rowed well
enough, there are huge navigation issues with openwater (coastal)
rowing, support launch or not. (Launches can fail too.) Risk of
death I mean. I hate that. There are also potential orthopedic
issues--the instability of the boat leading to shoulder problems, that
sort of thing. Get a lot of miles under your belt to sort that all
out.

I've done three (skinny boat) ultra rows (CPR twice, 8+ hrs over two
days; and another un-named venture with two quads on the Connecticut
River, 5.5 hrs over two days). Despite that I don't have a strong
opinion re the rigging/loading for ultra rowing, but my instinct is to
leave the rigging alone and row with what you're used to (per
orthopedic issues above). What happens in that case is that you will
raise the stroke rate over the course of the piece, which I think is
one way to adjust the load, lighten things up for the back. IE your
pacing dictates a firm SR 20, say, and you start that way, but later
you find you're at 22-23. Someone who is militant about slide control
might prefer tinkering with the rigging.

Re sons of Hathaway, one is presumably Steve, FISA age 56 this year,
who with Craig Leeds did Catalina in 2x many times I believe. Steve's
fallen off the rowing scene a bit but Craig has won the Charles single
50-59 the past two years (Steve's a previous winner in 40-49).
Raimund Haberl and I have been chasing his and Steve's 2x record for
the age group at the Charles.



19 Feb 2007 12:54:48
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> Agreed. The only way to be able to stand 57K on an erg is to watch a film
> (or do something similarly distracting)

Also, ever tried rowing on the erg for more than 30 to 45 minutes in a
house with three young kids? :-) Talk about a test of your
determination and concentration!

-Martin



19 Feb 2007 23:27:16
Henry Law
Re: Catalina race

[email protected] wrote:

> BTW, I couldn't row 57K on an erg in one sitting even if I was fit
> enough to do it. The darn thing bores me to death. I can stand it
> for 45 minutes, maybe an hour. At the end of the day, I'd rather be
> on water.

I had you down for a well-balanced individual; I was right. :-)

--

Henry Law Manchester, England


20 Feb 2007 09:06:23
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: Catalina race

On 19 Feb 2007 09:26:00 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>> http://www.rowing.biddulph.btinternet.co.uk/besttime.htm
>
> This is interesting. I am going to guess that the 1X's are already
> being operated significantly above hull speed, which requires lots of
> power. This would explain why the 2X's and 4X's don't have notably
> faster performance.

Huh?

M1x 6:35 117%
M2x 6:03 108%
M4x 5:37 100%

W1x 7:08 115%
W2x 6:39 108%
W4x 6:10 100%

LM1x 6:48 118%
LM2x 6:11 107%
LM4x 5:45 100%

LW1x 7:28 117%
LW2x 6:50 107%
LW4x 6:24 100%

Also, cigar shaped hulls don't have a very significant hull speed
barrier.

--
E. Dronkert


20 Feb 2007 09:14:55
Re: Catalina race

On Feb 19, 10:38 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> > By the way, the Catalina Crossing is 30.8 NM, or 57041.6 meters. You are
> > very new to all this. I wonder if for a novice like yourself eight months is
> > enough training time. Anyway, just think of the longest distance you have
> > ever ergged, then compare this distance to a 57K erg. Then think of doing a
> > 57K in open ocean. Conditions for last years Catalina Crossing were
> > "Headwind and Rough Chop."
>
> Just in case I wasn't clear, the idea of having such an event in mind
> is appealing to me. That does not mean that I have it as a goal this
> year. It does mean that I am competitive and interested in just what
> it takes to complete such an event. It is nice to have a sense of
> proportion and something to compare against as I progress in my
> rowing. I might operate as though I am very casually training to be
> able to do that sort of distance by September as a fitness goal --with
> the full understanding that the performance level won't match that of
> accomplished/experienced rowers. For me going into such a race right
> now would be like that poor fellow crossing the Tasman: ignorant, ill-
> prepared and doing it for the wrong reasons.
>
> BTW, I couldn't row 57K on an erg in one sitting even if I was fit
> enough to do it. The darn thing bores me to death. I can stand it
> for 45 minutes, maybe an hour. At the end of the day, I'd rather be
> on water. I can row for hours at the lake. I did so for a little
> over four hours on Saturday and Sunday...sore butt and blitered hands,
> other than that, it was a blast.
>
> -Martin

I don't know what California has in terms of races to work up to the
Catalina Crossing. Two obvious races elsewhere are the Bainbridge
Island Marathon (see soundrowers.org) and the Blackburn Challenge.
I've been doing Sound Rowers races for three years and I think I'm
finally ready to try the Bainbridge.

When singles do almost as well as doubles, that's a sign that boats
are well BELOW hull speed. Or that the waves are just the wrong length
for doubles.//Zeke Hoskin



20 Feb 2007 09:34:58
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> > power. This would explain why the 2X's and 4X's don't have notably
> > faster performance.
>
> Huh?
>
> M1x 6:35 117%
> M2x 6:03 108%
> M4x 5:37 100%

Right. You have four times the power available in a 4x and it is only
17% faster --21.3Km/hr vs. 18.2 Km/hr for a 1x. Four times the
power. Maybe I should have said "proportionately" instead of
"notably".

> Also, cigar shaped hulls don't have a very significant hull speed
barrier.

Although I've been meaning to, I haven't had the time to study the
hydrodynamics of shells yet. Are there any good books or online
resources that cover this? I don't need basic hydro/aero-dynamics
info, just the analysis as it pertains to these boats.

-Martin




20 Feb 2007 09:56:45
Mike Sullivan
Re: Catalina race


"Rob" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Re newbie Catalina crossing I would urge trying something more
> modest. Even if you happened to nail the fitness and you rowed well
> enough, there are huge navigation issues with openwater (coastal)
> rowing, support launch or not. (Launches can fail too.) Risk of

a few comments:

I haven't read the rules in a while, but friends of mine
rowed in one of the first crossing rowing races in late
70s and had to turn back when their following boat
crapped out. They were way ahead and cursing their
luck.

Not sure w/ GPS stuff now, but following boat needed
certain standards of radio/ and navigation systems/training.

All in all, the Catalina crossing at that time of year is pretty tame.
The water temps are generally ~70, you can count on the early hours
of it to have no wind, and once you are well past halfway,
if an early wind picks up, smarter scullers are in the lee of
the island. Dozens of open water swimmers have done it and
hundreds of 3 person relay swim teams. Countless Outriggers
do it every summer preparing for the Molokai, and hundreds
of OC1's and surfskis. Two guys from my club did training
paddles from Dana Pt to Avalon and back over two days in
OC1, (Single Outrigger Canoes).

Talking to the descendants of the Dorymen in newport, the
Portuegese fisherman at the McFadden wharf used to row their
dories 7-12 miles out(fish and come back) to the deep channel in the days
before
they equipped with outboards.

Lifeguards used to have regular Dory races out to the
island from various spots along the coast from
Malibu to Dana Pt.

The Catalina crossing has been done in paddleboards since
the early watermen of the 1930s after The Duke introduced.
surfboards to California. Paddleboard competitions died off
somewhat after the 70s, but started to come back again
in the late 90s. Paddleboards are big surfboards (fancier these
days, begin to look like surf skis) and are paddled with
your hands prone and on your knees. I think the crossing
times are 5-7 hours. They go either way, but prefer
Catalina to mainland so they can surf open ocean waves.
Hundreds of paddlers do this now, in several events.

Don't read too much into comparing boat types, there is much
more variance in the rowers in an event like this, than say
comparing the finals at Nationals, so indeed there may
be an outstanding sculler in a single and a double with people
slogging along. As I said in a post this year, I've found a
wherry to be the best rough water design I've ever rowed
in for very rough water (as far as boat speed) but the open
cockpit nature isn't ideal. If they fill with water, you're done.
Pocock made some covered
deck wherries, though I never tried one.

I've always admired the Catalina Crossing organizers, it seems they've
always put safety first from the beginning, way ahead of
what the rest of rowing has done, borrowing heavily from
sailing traditions at the yacht clubs in LA. There's
always a wind that comes up in the afternoon like clockwork,
and sometimes a heavy fog pushes in. I'm not aware
of any dangerous incidents, some swampings and boat
damage I think I remember from some of the guys taking
real racing shells out to the island.

As to nutrition, Martin, why don't you just stop, eat,
stretch and get off your butt every couple hours. Should
be a fun long row, probably safer than some of the winter
excursions in your lake. Not sure why you should care
how fast you go other than to be able to get into the
island lee with as much dispatch as comfortable, and
to finish in the range of everyone else.

In thinking about it, if you are already a fit person, then
preparing for the crossing will take far less overall investment
in time and energy over the next many months, than say if
you wanted to make a single go fast enough to be
competitive in your age group at master's nationals.

You don't need great technique to do it, just economical
movement that's easy on the body and moves the boat, and
good core strength and proper hands on the oars.







20 Feb 2007 11:52:19
Lauren G
Re: Catalina race

On Feb 20, 9:14 am, [email protected] wrote:
> I don't know what California has in terms of races to work up to the
> Catalina Crossing. Two obvious races elsewhere are the Bainbridge
> Island Marathon (see soundrowers.org) and the Blackburn Challenge.
> I've been doing Sound Rowers races for three years and I think I'm
> finally ready to try the Bainbridge.


When I bought my current open water boat from a club in San Diego they
said she had been rowed in the Bay to Bay which I believe is San Diego
to Mission Bay but may be the other way around. Doing a few searches
on the web left me more confused about it, I don't know whether it's
in June or October but it appears to be a 20 mile trek and row2k
didn't appear to have results for it, but I didn't look terribly
hard. Anyway I bought my boat from the ladies at ZLAC and I'm sure
they know more about the race.

Lauren




20 Feb 2007 19:58:47
Carl Douglas
Re: Catalina race

[email protected] wrote:
>>>power. This would explain why the 2X's and 4X's don't have notably
>>>faster performance.
>>
>>Huh?
>>
>>M1x 6:35 117%
>>M2x 6:03 108%
>>M4x 5:37 100%
>
>
> Right. You have four times the power available in a 4x and it is only
> 17% faster --21.3Km/hr vs. 18.2 Km/hr for a 1x. Four times the
> power. Maybe I should have said "proportionately" instead of
> "notably".

Try this simple comparison (everything in relative terms):
Power Length Wetted Speed Power
input area required
1x 1 1 1 1 1
4x 4 1.59 2.52 1.17 4.04

I used these simple relationships:
1. Length ~ (crew weight)^.3333
2. Area ~ (crew weight)^.6667
3. Power required ~ Area * (Speed)^3

Looks, at this level of simplicity, like everything is just as it should be.

Cheers -
Carl


--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: [email protected] Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


20 Feb 2007 17:59:35
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> a few comments:

Nice post Mike, thanks.

> I've always admired the Catalina Crossing organizers, it seems they've
> always put safety first from the beginning

That's one of the reasons this is of interest to me. From what I
heard it seems like nobody is trying to get killed on this one.

> As to nutrition, Martin, why don't you just stop, eat,
> stretch and get off your butt every couple hours.

I'm up for that. Sort of what I do now.

> Should
> be a fun long row, probably safer than some of the winter
> excursions in your lake.

You might just be right on that one.

> Not sure why you should care
> how fast you go other than to be able to get into the
> island lee with as much dispatch as comfortable, and
> to finish in the range of everyone else.

I don't. I just wanted to have an idea. I wouldn't want to do it in
13 hours. So, the info I have now gives me a way to measure things.
One of these days I'll go to the upper Castaic and see how much
trouble I can get in to in six hours or so. I just have to stay away
from the nutcases with the ciguarette boats doing 50Mph. Lake looks
like a V, where each leg is about five miles long. If I stay
relatively close to shore one loop should be over twenty miles. If I
can't do this then I have no business going in the ocean. The data I
have now gives me something to have as a sense of proportion.

> In thinking about it, if you are already a fit person

I wouldn't say that yet. I have a lot of work to do until September
if I am going to attempt this.

Look, as I said, it might be nice as a goal. I am not going to loose
one iota of sleep if I don't do it. But, you can aim for it and
there's nothing but good that can come from it.

If paddle-boarders can do it in 5 to 7 hours, why does it take
scullers 6+ hours? This is what is puzzling to me. I wonder if this
is simply because of a simple physiological limit. If I remember
correctly from "Fullness of Wings" much past a few hundred watts (a
couple of hundred?) even an athlete can't deliver power for an
extended period of time. So, it might not matter if that you are
using your legs, back and arms vs. the paddleboarders arms, for a six
hour run you simply can't do significantly better. 2K is a different
game.

If that's the case, the best strategy might be to get to the 200W (or
whatever) pace and keep it there rather than try to go fast initially
and falter later.

-Martin



20 Feb 2007 18:07:46
[email protected]
Re: Catalina race

> Try this simple comparison (everything in relative terms):
> Power Length Wetted Speed Power
> input area required
> 1x 1 1 1 1 1
> 4x 4 1.59 2.52 1.17 4.04
>
> I used these simple relationships:
> 1. Length ~ (crew weight)^.3333
> 2. Area ~ (crew weight)^.6667
> 3. Power required ~ Area * (Speed)^3
>
> Looks, at this level of simplicity, like everything is just as it should be.

OK, got it. It looks like wetted area then is the primary concern
with these boats?

Any good resources (books, links) on the hydrodynamics of shells?

I'm also pondering about what you have to do in order to compensate
for the shift in CG through the rowing cycle. It's got to add volume
to the boat. Right?

-Martin