31 May 2006 03:37:39
prakmel
Blame it on inexperience!

Article with good analysis of our problems

Prakash

--------------------------

http://htcricket.com/htcricket/8015_1709368,001601270000.htm

When the going is smooth, youth is the future, and fresh and young legs
an asset on the field.

And when the going gets rough, inexperience is the excuse doled out.
The absence is felt - of Laxman, of Kumble, of Sachin, and of all
people, Sourav!

Can we really blame the team's performance on inexperience?

Certainly, Raina, Dhoni and Pathan were not more experienced against
Lanka, South Africa, Pak and England, than they're now. Commonsense
dictates that they played 'lesser' matches than when they came up to
face Windies in their own den.

If inexperience is indeed the problem, then Dravid as skipper is
certainly much less experienced than Sourav, and Chappell must go to
make way for some more experienced coach. It must also be an irony that
when two of the most experienced players performed, India lost more
matches, if not as many, than when the raw ones came up with some
superlative show.

As the following table shows, under Chappell only 50+ scores of Yuvraj
and Dravid have been decisive while knocks from Sehwag and Kaif have
not had as much impact. This is not to belittle their innings,
especially two tremendous nineties from Sehwag in the present series.
But to show how hollow the argument of inexperience is in the context
of the series.

Big scores of the experienced four
Player 50+ scores Won Lost
Kaif 7 4 3
Sehwag 6 3 3
Yuvraj 13 9 4
Dravid 14 11 3

On the other hand, India's record has been tremendous when Dhoni and
Raina have fired with 50+ scores. Pathan is primarily a bowler, while
at times being an important run-getter.

Big scores of Pathan, Dhoni and Raina
Player 50+ scores Won Lost
Dhoni 9 7 2
Raina 3 3 0
Pathan 3 1 2

Batting wise, the team was not as inexperienced as it is made out to
be, the problem was in the placement.

Five Bowlers

Playing five bowlers means India would always be one batsman short and
in Tendulkar's absence, the other opener would have always been a pinch
hitter or a makeshift batsman.

The second opener and one-down position eventually turned out to be big
problem in the context of the series. Raina, Pathan and Dhoni - so
successful in more favourable conditions, were found wanting at the top
order in more testing environments.

India were losing their first two wickets too early and that proved to
be the downside of their performance. For first two wickets, there were
just two half centuries partnerships. On an average, India were losing
their second wicket even before 50 runs were on board. That proved
critical in the end.

Partnerships Average for first and second wickets
(India against West Indies)
1st wicket 19
2nd wicket 24

Pacing that went haywire

Pacing the innings was a big problem for the team and it was more than
evident in the final two matches at Port of Spain. While a nervous
India were not willing to call the shots in the power-play (first 20
overs) in the 4th ODI, they did not know what had hit them in the final
20 overs of the fifth match.

India after first 20 overs in fourth ODI
(69/3, 9 extras)
Dots 85
Scoring shots 35
Ones 22
Twos 7
Fours 6

In fact, in the final ODI, at one stage India were 173 for five wickets
after 33rd over, the same score which West Indies had reached in 40
overs, albeit with one wicket less. But they simply squandered the
advantage of seven overs.

Innings Comparison in 5th ODI




West Indies


India
Break-up Runs-Wkts Score Runs-Wkts Score
1-10 overs 52-1 52-1 50-2 50-2
11-20 overs 40-1 92-2 62-1 112-3
21-30 overs 30-0 122-2 45-1 157-4
31-40 overs 51-2 173-4 40-3 197-7
41-50 overs 82-2 255-6 39-3 236 (48 Overs)

Was series a step backward?

One may be inclined to call this series a step backward but that will
only be a backward thought.

If at all, this series will only help India plug the holes which were
not visible when the team was having it too easy. In the same way as
Australia learnt so much from lost Ashes.

A settled opening pair, team's best player (Dravid) at number three
with occasional use of Irfan and Dhoni, and seven batsmen-four bowler
combination will go a long way in helping India address their newly
discovered woes.

Players like Raina must be persisted with, and given more chances. They
are the finishers in the making. And if the pitches for ODIs are any
indication, finishing touches will be the most critical when the teams
go for glory in the World Cup 2007.



31 May 2006 03:57:13
Ravi
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


prakmel wrote:
> Article with good analysis of our problems
>
> Prakash
>
> --------------------------
>
> http://htcricket.com/htcricket/8015_1709368,001601270000.htm
>
> When the going is smooth, youth is the future, and fresh and young legs
> an asset on the field.
>
> And when the going gets rough, inexperience is the excuse doled out.
> The absence is felt - of Laxman, of Kumble, of Sachin, and of all
> people, Sourav!
>
> Can we really blame the team's performance on inexperience?
>
> Certainly, Raina, Dhoni and Pathan were not more experienced against
> Lanka, South Africa, Pak and England, than they're now. Commonsense
> dictates that they played 'lesser' matches than when they came up to
> face Windies in their own den.
>
> If inexperience is indeed the problem, then Dravid as skipper is
> certainly much less experienced than Sourav, and Chappell must go to
> make way for some more experienced coach. It must also be an irony that
> when two of the most experienced players performed, India lost more
> matches, if not as many, than when the raw ones came up with some
> superlative show.
>
> As the following table shows, under Chappell only 50+ scores of Yuvraj
> and Dravid have been decisive while knocks from Sehwag and Kaif have
> not had as much impact. This is not to belittle their innings,
> especially two tremendous nineties from Sehwag in the present series.
> But to show how hollow the argument of inexperience is in the context
> of the series.
>
> Big scores of the experienced four
> Player 50+ scores Won Lost
> Kaif 7 4 3
> Sehwag 6 3 3
> Yuvraj 13 9 4
> Dravid 14 11 3
>
> On the other hand, India's record has been tremendous when Dhoni and
> Raina have fired with 50+ scores. Pathan is primarily a bowler, while
> at times being an important run-getter.
>
> Big scores of Pathan, Dhoni and Raina
> Player 50+ scores Won Lost
> Dhoni 9 7 2
> Raina 3 3 0
> Pathan 3 1 2
>
> Batting wise, the team was not as inexperienced as it is made out to
> be, the problem was in the placement.
>
> Five Bowlers
>
> Playing five bowlers means India would always be one batsman short and
> in Tendulkar's absence, the other opener would have always been a pinch
> hitter or a makeshift batsman.
>
> The second opener and one-down position eventually turned out to be big
> problem in the context of the series. Raina, Pathan and Dhoni - so
> successful in more favourable conditions, were found wanting at the top
> order in more testing environments.
>
> India were losing their first two wickets too early and that proved to
> be the downside of their performance.

True but teams recovery from this. So is a normal event in a ODI.

>For first two wickets, there were
> just two half centuries partnerships. On an average, India were losing
> their second wicket even before 50 runs were on board. That proved
> critical in the end.
>
> Partnerships Average for first and second wickets
> (India against West Indies)
> 1st wicket 19
> 2nd wicket 24
>
> Pacing that went haywire
>
> Pacing the innings was a big problem for the team and it was more than
> evident in the final two matches at Port of Spain. While a nervous
> India were not willing to call the shots in the power-play (first 20
> overs) in the 4th ODI, they did not know what had hit them in the final
> 20 overs of the fifth match.
>
> India after first 20 overs in fourth ODI
> (69/3, 9 extras)
> Dots 85
> Scoring shots 35
> Ones 22
> Twos 7
> Fours 6
>
> In fact, in the final ODI, at one stage India were 173 for five wickets
> after 33rd over, the same score which West Indies had reached in 40
> overs, albeit with one wicket less. But they simply squandered the
> advantage of seven overs.
>
Kaif's SR was pretty poor - 70 or so in the 3 innings he scored and
during the middle overs. Cannot clear the boundary and has limited
shots to force the gap.

> Innings Comparison in 5th ODI
>
>
>
>
> West Indies
>
>
> India
> Break-up Runs-Wkts Score Runs-Wkts Score
> 1-10 overs 52-1 52-1 50-2 50-2
> 11-20 overs 40-1 92-2 62-1 112-3
> 21-30 overs 30-0 122-2 45-1 157-4
> 31-40 overs 51-2 173-4 40-3 197-7
> 41-50 overs 82-2 255-6 39-3 236 (48 Overs)
>
> Was series a step backward?
>
Forward for W.Indies.

> One may be inclined to call this series a step backward but that will
> only be a backward thought.
>
> If at all, this series will only help India plug the holes which were
> not visible when the team was having it too easy. In the same way as
> Australia learnt so much from lost Ashes.
>
Sure will keep plugging holes - those not visible now after the test
series and so on.

> A settled opening pair, team's best player (Dravid) at number three
> with occasional use of Irfan and Dhoni, and seven batsmen-four bowler
> combination will go a long way in helping India address their newly
> discovered woes.
>
> Players like Raina must be persisted with, and given more chances. They
> are the finishers in the making.
Raina did nothing of note - not sure why should one be persisted over
and above the normal chances given?

>And if the pitches for ODIs are any
> indication, finishing touches will be the most critical when the teams
> go for glory in the World Cup 2007.



31 May 2006 08:40:16
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Ravi wrote:
> prakmel wrote:
> > Article with good analysis of our problems
> >
> > Prakash
> >
> > --------------------------
> >
> > http://htcricket.com/htcricket/8015_1709368,001601270000.htm
> >
> > When the going is smooth, youth is the future, and fresh and young legs
> > an asset on the field.
> >
> > And when the going gets rough, inexperience is the excuse doled out.
> > The absence is felt - of Laxman, of Kumble, of Sachin, and of all
> > people, Sourav!
> >
> > Can we really blame the team's performance on inexperience?
> >
> > Certainly, Raina, Dhoni and Pathan were not more experienced against
> > Lanka, South Africa, Pak and England, than they're now. Commonsense
> > dictates that they played 'lesser' matches than when they came up to
> > face Windies in their own den.
> >
> > If inexperience is indeed the problem, then Dravid as skipper is
> > certainly much less experienced than Sourav, and Chappell must go to
> > make way for some more experienced coach. It must also be an irony that
> > when two of the most experienced players performed, India lost more
> > matches, if not as many, than when the raw ones came up with some
> > superlative show.
> >
> > As the following table shows, under Chappell only 50+ scores of Yuvraj
> > and Dravid have been decisive while knocks from Sehwag and Kaif have
> > not had as much impact. This is not to belittle their innings,
> > especially two tremendous nineties from Sehwag in the present series.
> > But to show how hollow the argument of inexperience is in the context
> > of the series.
> >
> > Big scores of the experienced four
> > Player 50+ scores Won Lost
> > Kaif 7 4 3
> > Sehwag 6 3 3
> > Yuvraj 13 9 4
> > Dravid 14 11 3
> >
> > On the other hand, India's record has been tremendous when Dhoni and
> > Raina have fired with 50+ scores. Pathan is primarily a bowler, while
> > at times being an important run-getter.
> >
> > Big scores of Pathan, Dhoni and Raina
> > Player 50+ scores Won Lost
> > Dhoni 9 7 2
> > Raina 3 3 0
> > Pathan 3 1 2
> >
> > Batting wise, the team was not as inexperienced as it is made out to
> > be, the problem was in the placement.
> >
> > Five Bowlers
> >
> > Playing five bowlers means India would always be one batsman short and
> > in Tendulkar's absence, the other opener would have always been a pinch
> > hitter or a makeshift batsman.
> >
> > The second opener and one-down position eventually turned out to be big
> > problem in the context of the series. Raina, Pathan and Dhoni - so
> > successful in more favourable conditions, were found wanting at the top
> > order in more testing environments.
> >
> > India were losing their first two wickets too early and that proved to
> > be the downside of their performance.
>
> True but teams recovery from this. So is a normal event in a ODI.
>
> >For first two wickets, there were
> > just two half centuries partnerships. On an average, India were losing
> > their second wicket even before 50 runs were on board. That proved
> > critical in the end.
> >
> > Partnerships Average for first and second wickets
> > (India against West Indies)
> > 1st wicket 19
> > 2nd wicket 24
> >
> > Pacing that went haywire
> >
> > Pacing the innings was a big problem for the team and it was more than
> > evident in the final two matches at Port of Spain. While a nervous
> > India were not willing to call the shots in the power-play (first 20
> > overs) in the 4th ODI, they did not know what had hit them in the final
> > 20 overs of the fifth match.
> >
> > India after first 20 overs in fourth ODI
> > (69/3, 9 extras)
> > Dots 85
> > Scoring shots 35
> > Ones 22
> > Twos 7
> > Fours 6
> >
> > In fact, in the final ODI, at one stage India were 173 for five wickets
> > after 33rd over, the same score which West Indies had reached in 40
> > overs, albeit with one wicket less. But they simply squandered the
> > advantage of seven overs.
> >
> Kaif's SR was pretty poor - 70 or so in the 3 innings he scored and
> during the middle overs. Cannot clear the boundary and has limited
> shots to force the gap.
>
> > Innings Comparison in 5th ODI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > West Indies
> >
> >
> > India
> > Break-up Runs-Wkts Score Runs-Wkts Score
> > 1-10 overs 52-1 52-1 50-2 50-2
> > 11-20 overs 40-1 92-2 62-1 112-3
> > 21-30 overs 30-0 122-2 45-1 157-4
> > 31-40 overs 51-2 173-4 40-3 197-7
> > 41-50 overs 82-2 255-6 39-3 236 (48 Overs)
> >
> > Was series a step backward?
> >
> Forward for W.Indies.
>
> > One may be inclined to call this series a step backward but that will
> > only be a backward thought.
> >
> > If at all, this series will only help India plug the holes which were
> > not visible when the team was having it too easy. In the same way as
> > Australia learnt so much from lost Ashes.
> >
> Sure will keep plugging holes - those not visible now after the test
> series and so on.
>
> > A settled opening pair, team's best player (Dravid) at number three
> > with occasional use of Irfan and Dhoni, and seven batsmen-four bowler
> > combination will go a long way in helping India address their newly
> > discovered woes.
> >
> > Players like Raina must be persisted with, and given more chances. They
> > are the finishers in the making.
> Raina did nothing of note - not sure why should one be persisted over
> and above the normal chances given

Better shot selection and learning to use his head will definitley help
him. Would have probably become a better player if he had played first
class for a couple more years. With so many players not doing too well
in the series, not sure you can pick on him. RD himself had a very bad
series apart from the first match. Bad series overall for most batsmen.
Hopefully if they have learnt the lessons it would be all not in vain.

-Aravind
>
> >And if the pitches for ODIs are any
> > indication, finishing touches will be the most critical when the teams
> > go for glory in the World Cup 2007.



31 May 2006 09:09:24
Southpaw
Re: Blame it on inexperience!

Indeed, blame it on inexperience, while Zaheer, Mongia, Ganguly, and
Agarkar all play cricket in England. The first two with a great deal of
success as well. Agarkar incidentally put down his success in the
recent ODO series to experience.

-Samarth.



31 May 2006 09:26:30
Jaidev
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


"Southpaw" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Indeed, blame it on inexperience, while Zaheer, Mongia, Ganguly, and
> Agarkar all play cricket in England. The first two with a great deal of
> success as well. Agarkar incidentally put down his success in the
> recent ODO series to experience.
>
> -Samarth.
>




Zaheer despited being given MULTIPLE CHANCES in his career, in his last
series

8 0 50 1
9.2 0 53 1
4 0 36 0
10 0 64 1


Mongia despite being given MULTIPLE CHANCES FAILED 3 CONSECUTIVE TIMES in
his 3 RECALLS.

Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0

overall 51 45 6 1073 159* 74 71 27.51 1 3 4


Ganguly in his last 15 ODS

22,55,22,0,9,4,18,51,2*,26,5,20,19,2,31


Why should any of these players be recalled into the team ?


IMMATURITY of posters here never amazes me.





31 May 2006 20:33:03
Sears Tower
Re: Blame it on inexperience!

"prakmel" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Article with good analysis of our problems
> http://htcricket.com/htcricket/8015_1709368,001601270000.htm

> Can we really blame the team's performance on inexperience?
Yep, playing at home like conditions is different from playing away.
Of the 15, in the ODI squad, only(batsmen) Dravid, Sehwag, Kaif, Yuvraj
and (bowlers) Harby and Ajit had played there before.
Only Pathan has played in conditions different than the subcontinent.

If you look at the avgs. it will reflect this.

Having said that, this was the absolutely the right tour to send in
so many new guys. These guys being the core for the next WC, will
gain invaluable experience in these conditions.
I very much doubt Zaheer, Mongia or Ganguly are going to make the
WC squad.






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31 May 2006 14:27:13
Southpaw
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Sears Tower wrote:
> "prakmel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > Article with good analysis of our problems
> > http://htcricket.com/htcricket/8015_1709368,001601270000.htm
>
> > Can we really blame the team's performance on inexperience?
> Yep, playing at home like conditions is different from playing away.
> Of the 15, in the ODI squad, only(batsmen) Dravid, Sehwag, Kaif, Yuvraj
> and (bowlers) Harby and Ajit had played there before.
> Only Pathan has played in conditions different than the subcontinent.
>
> If you look at the avgs. it will reflect this.
>
> Having said that, this was the absolutely the right tour to send in
> so many new guys. These guys being the core for the next WC, will
> gain invaluable experience in these conditions.
> I very much doubt Zaheer, Mongia or Ganguly are going to make the
> WC squad.

More's the pity. Literally and figuratively. :-)

Who knows if these guys are going to be the core for the next WC? They
may suck in the next 1 year, and then we will be back to square-one.

Case in point is Venu Rao. He is very close to being kicked out of
Indian team - all invaluable experience wasted. Same with RP Singh.
Didn't play too many ODOs in WI. Not in test team. On his way out
probably... What use the experience he gained? What are you willing to
bet that all of Irfan, Robin Uthappa, Sreesanth, Powar, and Munaf will
figure in WC squad? Or even that 3 of them will?

If these guys are indeed the core of the WC squad, then the I agree the
experience will be beneficial. But IMO these guys are only a few
losses/failures away from being dumped. Once these people fail, we will
be picking the next batch of under-19 kids to replace them, and blaming
inexperience once again when they fail.

-Samarth [ maybe Zaheer, Mongia, and Ganguly can be picked for England
tour 2007 on the basis of invaluable experience gained there ].



01 Jun 2006 16:57:44
Sears Tower
Re: Blame it on inexperience!

"Southpaw" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Sears Tower wrote:
> > "prakmel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> > > Article with good analysis of our problems
> > > http://htcricket.com/htcricket/8015_1709368,001601270000.htm
> >
> > > Can we really blame the team's performance on inexperience?
> > Yep, playing at home like conditions is different from playing away.
> > Of the 15, in the ODI squad, only(batsmen) Dravid, Sehwag, Kaif, Yuvraj
> > and (bowlers) Harby and Ajit had played there before.
> > Only Pathan has played in conditions different than the subcontinent.
> >
> > If you look at the avgs. it will reflect this.
> >
> > Having said that, this was the absolutely the right tour to send in
> > so many new guys. These guys being the core for the next WC, will
> > gain invaluable experience in these conditions.
> > I very much doubt Zaheer, Mongia or Ganguly are going to make the
> > WC squad.
>
> More's the pity. Literally and figuratively. :-)
>
> Who knows if these guys are going to be the core for the next WC? They
> may suck in the next 1 year, and then we will be back to square-one.
And what guarantees Zaheer/Mongia/Ganguly's success if selected.
Maybe they are just "county dadas".

>
> Case in point is Venu Rao. He is very close to being kicked out of
> Indian team - all invaluable experience wasted. Same with RP Singh.
> Didn't play too many ODOs in WI. Not in test team. On his way out
There will be not many tours you will find where someone has not
done well/not given a chance and not been discarded.
Someone is always dropped after a tour - fairly or unfairly.

The experience was probably useful in sorting out who might make the
future. It is better to fail now than in the WC.

> probably... What use the experience he gained? What are you willing to
> bet that all of Irfan, Robin Uthappa, Sreesanth, Powar, and Munaf will
> figure in WC squad? Or even that 3 of them will?
Well I will bet "jaidev's $5000 owed to tsp", that 3 if not 4 of the above
will
figure in WC squad barring injuries.

>
> If these guys are indeed the core of the WC squad, then the I agree the
> experience will be beneficial. But IMO these guys are only a few
So you think there will be wholesale changes to the WC squad?
I don't think so. They drop 2-3 and maybe include 1-2 new faces.
Besides that, I don't see much change and I see not reason either.

> losses/failures away from being dumped. Once these people fail, we will
> be picking the next batch of under-19 kids to replace them, and blaming
> inexperience once again when they fail.
These things happen when your core gets older, you then have to try out the
newer lot.
The 1996 tour of England comes to mind. India were able to get quite a few
good players out of that tour.
OTOH, the 1999 tour down under was a disaster in acclimatizing the newer
guys to play in non subcontinent conditions.
IMHO, the strength of the oppositon did have a role(albeit a small one) in
how things turned out.

>
> -Samarth [ maybe Zaheer, Mongia, and Ganguly can be picked for England
> tour 2007 on the basis of invaluable experience gained there ].
Yeah, why not, if they still continue to do well and the others suck.
Maybe they can do a Madan Lal in 1986.




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01 Jun 2006 08:36:33
Re: Blame it on inexperience!

Prakash,

While Holding some fair points, it's quite obvious that he is pimping
for position of Indian bowling coach.

Shariq

prakmel wrote:
> Article with good analysis of our problems
>
> Prakash



01 Jun 2006 08:40:22
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Southpaw wrote:
> Indeed, blame it on inexperience, while Zaheer, Mongia, Ganguly, and
> Agarkar all play cricket in England. The first two with a great deal of
> success as well. Agarkar incidentally put down his success in the
> recent ODO series to experience.
>
> -Samarth.

Samarth I have not understood why Dinesh Mongia is even considered for
the Indian side. I find him to be one of the most complete players
amongst the Indian batsmen I have watched over the past couple of
years. The guy can bat from #1 through #6, is a thinking player, is a
good fielder and a very useful bowler

Shariq



01 Jun 2006 08:45:25
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Jaidev wrote:
> "Southpaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > Indeed, blame it on inexperience, while Zaheer, Mongia, Ganguly, and
> > Agarkar all play cricket in England. The first two with a great deal of
> > success as well. Agarkar incidentally put down his success in the
> > recent ODO series to experience.
> >
> > -Samarth.
> >
>
>
>
>
> Zaheer despited being given MULTIPLE CHANCES in his career, in his last
> series
>
> 8 0 50 1
> 9.2 0 53 1
> 4 0 36 0
> 10 0 64 1
>
>
> Mongia despite being given MULTIPLE CHANCES FAILED 3 CONSECUTIVE TIMES in
> his 3 RECALLS.
>
> Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
>
> overall 51 45 6 1073 159* 74 71 27.51 1 3 4
>
>
> Ganguly in his last 15 ODS
>
> 22,55,22,0,9,4,18,51,2*,26,5,20,19,2,31
>
>
> Why should any of these players be recalled into the team ?
>
>
> IMMATURITY of posters here never amazes me.

You are aware that some people are late bloomers - Mongia has proved
himself repeatdly at county and in domestic cricket. That warrants him
getting another look especially in light on the Indian batting lineup's
struggles on less than ideal batting tracks

Ditto for Zaheer and Nehra, in light of Irfan well on his way to
becoming a slow left armer, Sreesanth's recent struggles, VRV Singh's
patheticness, RP Singh's rawness and Munaf Patel's inconsistenciy

Shariq



01 Jun 2006 09:45:11
Jaidev
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Jaidev wrote:
>> "Southpaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> > Indeed, blame it on inexperience, while Zaheer, Mongia, Ganguly, and
>> > Agarkar all play cricket in England. The first two with a great deal of
>> > success as well. Agarkar incidentally put down his success in the
>> > recent ODO series to experience.
>> >
>> > -Samarth.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Zaheer despited being given MULTIPLE CHANCES in his career, in his last
>> series
>>
>> 8 0 50 1
>> 9.2 0 53 1
>> 4 0 36 0
>> 10 0 64 1
>>
>>
>> Mongia despite being given MULTIPLE CHANCES FAILED 3 CONSECUTIVE TIMES in
>> his 3 RECALLS.
>>
>> Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0
>>
>> overall 51 45 6 1073 159* 74 71 27.51 1 3 4
>>
>>
>> Ganguly in his last 15 ODS
>>
>> 22,55,22,0,9,4,18,51,2*,26,5,20,19,2,31
>>
>>
>> Why should any of these players be recalled into the team ?
>>
>>
>> IMMATURITY of posters here never amazes me.
>
> You are aware that some people are late bloomers - Mongia has proved
> himself repeatdly at county and in domestic cricket.



There are plenty of other Indian players who OUTPERFORMED Dinesh Mongia in
the domestic cricket.




>That warrants him
> getting another look especially in light on the Indian batting lineup's
> struggles on less than ideal batting tracks


The SAME TEAM did WELL against Pakistan IN pakistan and against SL and SA in
the last few months. So it is PREMATURE to WRITE the CURRENT TEAM OFF based
on JUST ONE SERIES LOSS. But there is always ROOM for improvement and Dinesh
Mongia does NOT deserve another chance because he NEVER PERFORMED against
QUALITY TEAMS in the PAST in THREE DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS.




> Ditto for Zaheer and Nehra, in light of Irfan well on his way to
> becoming a slow left armer, Sreesanth's recent struggles, VRV Singh's
> patheticness, RP Singh's rawness and Munaf Patel's inconsistenciy
>
> Shariq



Zaheer will NEVER be RECALLED again. His FIELDING is a LIABILITY and prone
to injuries. He also FAILED to UTILIZE his MANY RECALLS into the team.

VRV is already known as RAW, Munaf is an attacking bowler like SreeSanth and
hence there is ONLY place for one of these two.

Nehra is also PRONE to injuries and his poor fielding is held against him by
Chappell.

Nehra probably deserves another chance over Zaheer IMHO.








01 Jun 2006 10:44:30
Southpaw
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Sears Tower wrote:
> "Southpaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > Sears Tower wrote:
> > > "prakmel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]
> > > > Article with good analysis of our problems
> > > > http://htcricket.com/htcricket/8015_1709368,001601270000.htm
> > >
> > > > Can we really blame the team's performance on inexperience?
> > > Yep, playing at home like conditions is different from playing away.
> > > Of the 15, in the ODI squad, only(batsmen) Dravid, Sehwag, Kaif, Yuvraj
> > > and (bowlers) Harby and Ajit had played there before.
> > > Only Pathan has played in conditions different than the subcontinent.
> > >
> > > If you look at the avgs. it will reflect this.
> > >
> > > Having said that, this was the absolutely the right tour to send in
> > > so many new guys. These guys being the core for the next WC, will
> > > gain invaluable experience in these conditions.
> > > I very much doubt Zaheer, Mongia or Ganguly are going to make the
> > > WC squad.
> >
> > More's the pity. Literally and figuratively. :-)
> >
> > Who knows if these guys are going to be the core for the next WC? They
> > may suck in the next 1 year, and then we will be back to square-one.
> And what guarantees Zaheer/Mongia/Ganguly's success if selected.
> Maybe they are just "county dadas".

Maybe. I just feel that county dadas have a greater probability of
succeeding in intl. cricket than "local bachas". Of course, there are
counter-examples. County dadas who have failed in intl. cricket and
local bachas who have succeeded. I think however that probability of
county dadas succeeding in intl. cricket is higher. Several Aussie
newcomers or comeback men are county dadas.

> >
> > Case in point is Venu Rao. He is very close to being kicked out of
> > Indian team - all invaluable experience wasted. Same with RP Singh.
> > Didn't play too many ODOs in WI. Not in test team. On his way out
> There will be not many tours you will find where someone has not
> done well/not given a chance and not been discarded.
> Someone is always dropped after a tour - fairly or unfairly.
>
> The experience was probably useful in sorting out who might make the
> future. It is better to fail now than in the WC.
>
> > probably... What use the experience he gained? What are you willing to
> > bet that all of Irfan, Robin Uthappa, Sreesanth, Powar, and Munaf will
> > figure in WC squad? Or even that 3 of them will?
> Well I will bet "jaidev's $5000 owed to tsp", that 3 if not 4 of the above
> will
> figure in WC squad barring injuries.
>
> >
> > If these guys are indeed the core of the WC squad, then the I agree the
> > experience will be beneficial. But IMO these guys are only a few
> So you think there will be wholesale changes to the WC squad?
> I don't think so. They drop 2-3 and maybe include 1-2 new faces.
> Besides that, I don't see much change and I see not reason either.

I am not sure that these raw newcomers will survive disastrous tours of
WI and RSA. Besides, in India we often pick players after just one
domestic season. RP Singh and Suresh Raina both made their List A
debuts in 2004-05. VRV Singh made his FC debut in 2004-05. We still
have whole of 2005-06 season before WC. Who knows which kid will have a
breakout domestic season.

> > losses/failures away from being dumped. Once these people fail, we will
> > be picking the next batch of under-19 kids to replace them, and blaming
> > inexperience once again when they fail.
> These things happen when your core gets older, you then have to try out the
> newer lot.

Yes, when your core players reach their mid-30s, you pick guys in their
mid-to-late 20s, with some FC mileage, to replace them. Not
20-year-olds. This is what Aus did. The batsmen given opportunities to
replace Taylor and Waugh brothers were all county dadas in the
mid-to-late 20s: Hayden, Lehmann, Katich, Hussey, Maher, Love, etc.
Some failed, some succeeded. The only kid thrown into the mix was
Michael Clarke, whose FC record came under much scrutiny when he was
picked, but he scored 151 against Kumble in his den on debut to shut
everyone up. Even Clarke however had 4 seasons of FC cricket when
picked at age 22.

> The 1996 tour of England comes to mind. India were able to get quite a few
> good players out of that tour.

The players we got were all FC dadas actually. Prasad had 5 years of FC
experience by then, Dravid 6, and Ganguly 8. They had all also
performed for a few years before being selected. When Ganguly had been
selected in 1992 itself he had a Duleep century against WZ, let alone
1996. I recall Prasad took an 8-fer in a Duleep game in 1993-4. All
played for India for more than 5 years after debut. (Between the 3 of
them, RP Singh, VRV Singh and Suresh Raina have 5 years of FC cricket,
5 Duleep games, no Duleep 50s and no Duleep 5-fers.)

Contrast with Paras Mhambrey who made his FC debut in '93-4 only and
was picked after just one great season. Never played for India again
after '96.

OTOH Rathour and Joshi had been playing FC cricket for longer, and were
both past 25 when picked. Rathour sparkled in the county games, but
failed stunningly in intl. cricket. Joshi played for India off-and-on
until 2001.

One thing about that England tour was that the incumbents were not
around, and were unavailable. Prabhakar had retired, Sidhu had ditched
the team, Kapil had retired, Manjrekar was injured, and Kambli had been
dropped for disciplinary reasons. So we were forced to throw a bunch of
newcomers into the deep end. Right now though, we have experienced guys
playing cricket in England, and available.

-Samarth.

> OTOH, the 1999 tour down under was a disaster in acclimatizing the newer
> guys to play in non subcontinent conditions.
> IMHO, the strength of the oppositon did have a role(albeit a small one) in
> how things turned out.
>
> >
> > -Samarth [ maybe Zaheer, Mongia, and Ganguly can be picked for England
> > tour 2007 on the basis of invaluable experience gained there ].
> Yeah, why not, if they still continue to do well and the others suck.
> Maybe they can do a Madan Lal in 1986.
>
>
>
>
> Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php



02 Jun 2006 19:23:38
Gafoor
Re: Blame it on inexperience!

It's highly likely that one or more of
the experienced bowlers will be called
in by T3 atleast. It maybe because of
injuries or just plain extra backups.

But I still think this attack is as good or
as bad as most other attacks we have
taken abroad in the last 3-4 years.

About Nehra, he isn't interested in playing
tests but only wants to play ODI's.




02 Jun 2006 08:02:26
Southpaw
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Gafoor wrote:
> It's highly likely that one or more of
> the experienced bowlers will be called
> in by T3 atleast. It maybe because of
> injuries or just plain extra backups.
>
> But I still think this attack is as good or
> as bad as most other attacks we have
> taken abroad in the last 3-4 years.

Maybe. But last 3-4 years we have not had that many experienced or
in-form pace bowlers available, that we passed up to pick newbies.
Also, last 3-4 years Kumble was younger and Harbhajan better than
today, so we could afford to be adventurous and pick one tearaway on
blind faith. Instead of preserving 36-year-old Kumble in cotton wool,
we have now put him in an attack in which the other 3 bowlers have 4
tests between them. If things get tough, guess who will bowl 50 overs
in a long innings? Guess who is most likely not to be as overawed by
the stage or by the opposition (containing Lara, no less)?

This is where an experienced medium-pacer would have helped. Agarkar
has not been a steady line-and-length bowler over his career. But
recently in ODOs, he showed he can bowl a steady line-and-lengh, and
bowl to his field, to keep things quiet. He's most probably the closest
we've now got to a steady medium-pacer with an experienced head.

This is also where IMO a good defensive spinner would have helped take
the burden off Kumble. The closest we have to something like that is
Harbhajan. But he's also been left out.

The funny thing about leaving out Irfan, Agarkar, and Harbhajan is that
they are actually batsmen who can contribute too. Irfan averages over
20 in test cricket, and Harbhajan has frequently contributed an
unorthodox cameo of 20-30. Agarkar of course has an away test 100 to
his name. Not only are these guys more experienced bowlers (needed to
bowl to a plan, bowl steadily without newbie nervousness, not get
overawed by Lara & co.), they are also better batsmen. Considering we
are playing a weakened batting line-up in the absence of SRT, perhaps
their batting may have proven useful...

How often has the tail bailed us out of trouble in the recent past, vs.
SL and England?

> About Nehra, he isn't interested in playing
> tests but only wants to play ODI's.

I never said anything about Nehra playing intl. cricket right now. He's
coming back after prolonged injury layoff, needs lots of FC cricket
before he can get back. The experienced bowlers in England I was
referring to are Zaheer and Agarkar. The latter isn't yet in England,
but is likely to play there this summer IMO.

-Samarth.



02 Jun 2006 09:20:57
JR
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Southpaw wrote:
> Instead of preserving 36-year-old Kumble in cotton wool,
> we have now put him in an attack in which the other 3 bowlers have 4
> tests between them.

I haven't seen the guy bowl, so can someone tell me why VRV Singh
deserved a Test cap? His stats upto now in whatever international
cricket he has played have been terrible. Does he look like a test
bowler that India is willing to leave out Pathan, who can at least be
expected to bowl tidily and bat reasonably well? Doesn't make any sense
to me.

JR



02 Jun 2006 10:43:43
Southpaw
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


JR wrote:
> Southpaw wrote:
> > Instead of preserving 36-year-old Kumble in cotton wool,
> > we have now put him in an attack in which the other 3 bowlers have 4
> > tests between them.
>
> I haven't seen the guy bowl, so can someone tell me why VRV Singh
> deserved a Test cap? His stats upto now in whatever international
> cricket he has played have been terrible. Does he look like a test
> bowler that India is willing to leave out Pathan, who can at least be
> expected to bowl tidily and bat reasonably well? Doesn't make any sense
> to me.

I guess the team management thinks very highly of VRV Singh. First they
took him along with the squad just as a net bowler, then they picked
him in the squad ahead of Agarkar and Zaheer, and now he's making his
test debut ahead of Pathan! All this despite having played only 8 FC
games in his career so far.

Let's hope this is an inspired selection, and VRV starts an illustrious
test career beginning with Antigua.

-Samarth.

>
> JR



02 Jun 2006 12:56:48
yudever
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Southpaw wrote:

> I guess the team management thinks very highly of VRV Singh. First they
> took him along with the squad just as a net bowler, then they picked
> him in the squad ahead of Agarkar and Zaheer, and now he's making his
> test debut ahead of Pathan! All this despite having played only 8 FC
> games in his career so far.
>
> Let's hope this is an inspired selection, and VRV starts an illustrious
> test career beginning with Antigua.
>
> -Samarth.
>

It's idiotic to drop Pathan, IMO. Although he has been a bit out of
sorts lately, picking Srisanth, Patel, and VRV ahead of Pathan is
ridiculous. Pathan has that ability to take that key wicket; it is not
reflected in his stats, but is vital.

Sanjiv Karmarkar



02 Jun 2006 13:19:43
Southpaw
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


yudever wrote:
> Southpaw wrote:
>
> > I guess the team management thinks very highly of VRV Singh. First they
> > took him along with the squad just as a net bowler, then they picked
> > him in the squad ahead of Agarkar and Zaheer, and now he's making his
> > test debut ahead of Pathan! All this despite having played only 8 FC
> > games in his career so far.
> >
> > Let's hope this is an inspired selection, and VRV starts an illustrious
> > test career beginning with Antigua.
> >
> > -Samarth.
> >
>
> It's idiotic to drop Pathan, IMO. Although he has been a bit out of
> sorts lately, picking Srisanth, Patel, and VRV ahead of Pathan is
> ridiculous. Pathan has that ability to take that key wicket; it is not
> reflected in his stats, but is vital.

IMO Pathan with the new ball is still a potent bowler. He generates
prodigious swing at a pace that tempts the batsman to have a go. It is
with the old ball that he has become cannon-fodder. His batting in the
lower order is very useful too. In the last year, a tail comprising
Irfan, Agarkar, Kumble, and Harbhajan has usually added 100-150 to the
total at the fall of the 5th or 6th wicket, sometimes more.

180/5 has in recent times meant a total in excess of 300. (T3 both
innings vs. SL, T2 in Pak, and all 3 tests vs. Eng). With a 9/10/jack
of Sreesanth, Munaf, and VRV Singh, one wonders how far we will go.

Let's hope the tail wags and the pacers then strike with the ball.

-Samarth.

>
> Sanjiv Karmarkar



02 Jun 2006 16:01:35
Uday Rajan
Re: Blame it on inexperience!

Southpaw wrote:
> Instead of preserving 36-year-old Kumble in cotton wool,
> we have now put him in an attack in which the other 3 bowlers have 4
> tests between them.

A quick glance at the "live career stats" on CI shows that Kumble has
510 Test wickets, and the entire rest of the team put together has 27,
a ratio of about 19:1. Surely it's been a while since India put out so
skewed an attack.

A couple of other times when we've had inexperienced opening attacks
was when Yohannan and Siddique were picked for their debut Test against
England, but Kumble and Harby both played that Test, so there was some
experience in the attack. Against Aus at Chennai in 2001, we had
Zaheer, Harby, Bahutule, and Kulkarni as the frontline bowlers, but
Harby was a relative newbie then. Also, Ganguly and Tendulkar bowled a
bit in that Test, and each had 30-ish Test wickets, I think.

I thought Sreesanth showed some potential against England. I liked his
outswinger; if he can pitch it on a line and length, it'll get him some
wickets (hmm..WI do have a fair number of lefties, so perhaps not quite
as many against the WI as against a right-handed line-up). Patel
apparently bowled well against England, but I missed his spells. It
seems reasonable that those two were in the top 3 seamers after the Eng
series. But I agree with your sentiments in this thread: surely, if
Pathan was not going to play, it would have been good to have someone
like Zaheer as a back-up, rather than go into an away Test with only
rookie seamers.



02 Jun 2006 20:39:56
Cricketwallah
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Southpaw wrote:
> Sears Tower wrote:
> >
> > Having said that, this was the absolutely the right tour to send in
> > so many new guys. These guys being the core for the next WC, will
> > gain invaluable experience in these conditions.
> > I very much doubt Zaheer, Mongia or Ganguly are going to make the
> > WC squad.
>
> More's the pity. Literally and figuratively. :-)
>
> Who knows if these guys are going to be the core for the next WC? They
> may suck in the next 1 year, and then we will be back to square-one.
>
> Case in point is Venu Rao. He is very close to being kicked out of
> Indian team - all invaluable experience wasted. Same with RP Singh.
> Didn't play too many ODOs in WI. Not in test team. On his way out
> probably... What use the experience he gained? What are you willing to
> bet that all of Irfan, Robin Uthappa, Sreesanth, Powar, and Munaf will
> figure in WC squad? Or even that 3 of them will?
>

I'll take this bet, BTW - I do think 3 of Irfan, Uthappa, Sreesanth,
Powar and Munaf will likely be in the squad for the WC. My bet
would be Irfan, Sreesanth and Powar probably :-) And maybe Munaf
as well. Uthappa has a shot at being the backup batsman - but with
Tendulkar returning, that backup doesnt *have* to be an opener, which
may narrow his chances some.


> If these guys are indeed the core of the WC squad, then the I agree the
> experience will be beneficial. But IMO these guys are only a few
> losses/failures away from being dumped. Once these people fail, we will
> be picking the next batch of under-19 kids to replace them, and blaming
> inexperience once again when they fail.
>

If we do that, of course, then that will be wrong - but thats still a
year
away, and they havent done that yet. So why predict horrible selections
a year before they happen (when there are already plenty to carp about
at the moment anyway? :-) (And anyway, if they pick Rohit Sharma,
maybe that'll be a good thing ;-)


I *do* think we have a WC core pretty much set. I also think, BTW, that
Irfan is very much a part of it - even if he is missing the test match
today. I think Irfan is a certainty, actually.

For our squad, I think we have the following : Tendulkar,
Sehwag, Dravid, Yuvraj, Raina, Kaif, Backup Batsman, Dhoni,
Irfan, Agarkar, Harby, Second Spinner, Third and Fourth Seamer.
Basically, about 4 guys out of the squad are unsure IMHO - and
IMHO we have a pretty good idea of who those 4 are too.

I think, given his performances against England, Pak (in Abu Dhabi),
and even a couple of games in WI, Powar is very likely to be the
second spinner.The only one who could, IMHO, probably pip him is
if there is a late change of heart and they go back to Kumble - but
he is plenty experienced anyway, and he didnt need to be worked so
hard against England, in Abu Dhabi, and in WI now, probably.
(Especially, IMHO, since he is probably not *likely* to go to the WC,
his fielding is seen as too much of a liability and he is being
reserved
to be the test spearhead I think).

The 2 other fast bowlers... I think Sreesanth is very very likely to be
the third. The fourth may be a little bit iffy right now - RP is a
possibility,
they would like Munaf to claim it (he just *looks* like he could be a
good control ODI bowler, he just has done badly so far in a very
small sample size - he will be given a chance to learn; he had to be
given that chance in WI right now IMHO, it was correct to take him
there). If all that *doesnt* work out, they may go back to Zaheer - but
as of the moment there is no reason to presume it wont work out,
and Zaheer also has prior experience in WI anyway. (The other
contenders, Nehra and Balaji, are anyway out of commission, so
nothing can be done one way or the other about them. They arent
options right now anyway - and they can only make it back if they
show they are fully healthy and do really well again in domestics
etc next year IMHO).

Then there is that one backup batsman position - Venu was given the
chance to claim it, he hasnt conclusively claimed it yet obviously.
But did he *not* deserve the chance to claim it? His domestics have
been very good - at least as good or better than Mongia's - so why
*not* give him a chance when we already sort of have seen Mongia
in the past? Now, if Venu keeps doing poorly and Mongia keeps
excelling in ENgland.. fine, we can give Mongia a go in the upcoming
home season. But again, IMHO that is only for the last backup
batsman spot - with Tendulkar due to return and still a certainty for
ODIs, there really is no other spot open. (Kaif is now conclusively
the 6th bat probably - and even he wont always play, probably, as
they may sometimes go with 5 bowlers).

Overall, we had a horrible ODI series - it happens. We've had
tremendous
success for the whole season before that, and lets not forget that we
were missing the best ODI batsman of his generation in this series
too. With Tendulkar around we are also almost certain, IMHO, to
go with 4 bowlers - the balance of the side itself changes, because
Tendulkar is basically your fifth bowler (in Pakistan he bowled 10
overs
in every single game IIRC - and was what, 2nd in economy rate in
the team)?

> -Samarth [ maybe Zaheer, Mongia, and Ganguly can be picked for England
> tour 2007 on the basis of invaluable experience gained there ].

I dont think there was anything wrong with the ODI side picked for
this tour - all of the above 3 are, I agree with TheBigBuilding, quite
unlikely to be picked for next years squad. They can still be picked,
of course, if these guys suffer crashing failures - but India did well
in the past 3 series, and there is no reason to predict failure for
them as such.

Take Sreesanth for example. I havent been a fan - Iam sort of
biased against him to start with, because he is not one of those
guys who excelled at the domestics and so IMHO didnt "deserve"
to be picked to start with. But he has clearly shown improvement -
thus I do think he is a certainty at the moment. His stats are still
crap overall of course - but his last game against England, and the
2 games in Abu Dhabi (3 consecutive games) were clearly the 3
best games of his career IMHO. There was a setback in WI - but
overall in his last 10 games (out of 18 overall), his average is 24
and his ER is 5.37 (overall its avg 36, ER 5.71 - clearly there has
been improvement, no?) He is given the responsibility of bowling
at the start (under restrictions), and often at the death too nowadays.
Are they going to drop him *now* and bring back Zaheer? I very
much doubt it - not unless there is a significant dropoff again.
At this moment, IMHO we cant predict that - and we shouldnt
drop Sreesanth for a veteran on the basis of that prediction. If
he fails he can be dropped obviously - but *today* he wont
be, IMHO.

The tests, of course, are a different matter :-) Id have gone with
either Zaheer or Agarkar for VRV SINgh too - but only one of the
two, IMHO, you werent going to leave out Irfan, Sreesanth or
Munaf from your test squad, and you shouldnt (the latter two were
your two best test pacemen against England). But they really
believe in VRV Singh - we'll find out about that. They must surely
have seen *something* there, Iam willing to give them the benefit
of the doubt, theyve seen more of him than any of us obviously.
He may be no quicker than Agarkar on radar, but he is tall and
gets very good bounce - he bowls a very "heavy ball". In the ODIs
he was killed, maybe in the tests that wont be as much of an
issue, who knows. But this selection was poor IMHO - I would
have gone with one of Agarkar/Zaheer here, and if they really
wanted VRV they could have taken him instead of the 2nd keeper
(who will basically be a passenger all tour). The 3 spinners, I
dont have *that* much of a problem with - mostly because, given
WI pitches, I really think (thought, before today anyway) that
we were likely to go with 2 pacemen and 2 spinners in our attack.
Thus, given injury possibilities, IMHO it made more sense to go
with a 3rd spinner than a 5th paceman (though Id have taken that
5th paceman in place of the backup keeper - thus the 3rd spinner
would actually make more sense than the *sixth* pacer :-)

Anyway. Poor first day, sure, but its only one day still - VRV can
still prove all the detractors wrong tomorrow :-)


Sadiq [ will bat better in I2 as well ] Yusuf



02 Jun 2006 22:13:14
prasen9
Re: Blame it on inexperience!


Cricketwallah wrote:


> Then there is that one backup batsman position - Venu was given the
> chance to claim it, he hasnt conclusively claimed it yet obviously.
> But did he *not* deserve the chance to claim it? His domestics have
> been very good - at least as good or better than Mongia's - so why
> *not* give him a chance when we already sort of have seen Mongia
> in the past?

Yes, it has been. However, do you know the SR of Venu? From whatever
I have seen, he has been excruciatingly slow while batting and cannot
rotate the strike. He is more suited to tests, I think. This way, his

failures in ODIs will prevent him being considered in the tests. He
will
most possibly not bat higher up in the order, so for the lower order
what
is required is one with a SR of at least 75 or more. Venu's average
in domestics is okay, was he a good striker of the ball and just became
exceedingly careful in ODIs?

-pm