30 Aug 2004 09:40:09
John LaVoy
Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

I wonder. I did not actually see the USA team play, but I watched a number
of other games. The issue to me was not the teams, nor was it the players.
The issue was the game itself. The FIBA game was just a lot more fun to
watch than the NBA. All five players were involved in nearly every play.
There was little if any focus on the one man isloation play or on the two
man game. In terms of passing, truly competent shooting, and playing
without the ball, the international game was clearly superior. On the other
hand, if the game were played with NBA referees and rules, the outcome would
probably have been different.

The question is what rules or policies or practices are operating in the
NBA that drive teams to focus on certain types of players and certain types
of play. What can or should be changed?






30 Aug 2004 16:54:36
Andrea Gruber
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

Some interesting thougths from John LaVoy!

Now, it has been a while since I saw a complete NBA game (I constantly
followed the NBA in the '80 until 1994). I remember a kind of playing based
on the one-on-one duels (2 players playing, 8 watching & fighting for
position) but nevertheless everyone on the court of any NBA game in the '80
was good, VERY GOOD, in the fundamental passing, shooting and dribbling.
They maybe did not play "as a team", but they were very good basketball
players "in the technical sense" of the game.

Look at today's situation (I judge, and maybe I should not, from the NBA
guys who were sent to Athens): they are great athletes, no doubt about it,
but I would hardly define some of them basketball players. Many players
could not shoot properly (free throws, let alone 3s!), pass or dribble (I
recall somebody from Team USA, I think Stoudemire, on open court, dribbling
the ball on his foot and sending it out! A newbie's mistake...). I am
surprised, really, I did not think the fundamentals (shooting, passing,
dribbling) were so little valued among NBA players these days.

Team play is certainly a factor (for a collection of "unknowns", not so
athletic players, as the Italians, it is THE FACTOR) for the "white" teams
success in these Olympic Games, but I think that technically sound players
are also an important factor.

Last but not least, as an Italian, I congratulate Argentina for the win in
the final. They undoubtedly were the best team in the tournament and
Argentina deserved the gold all the way, especially after the "refs'
messed-up" loss against Yougoslavia in WBC 2002!


Saluti&baci




"John LaVoy" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I wonder. I did not actually see the USA team play, but I watched a
number
> of other games. The issue to me was not the teams, nor was it the
players.
> The issue was the game itself. The FIBA game was just a lot more fun to
> watch than the NBA. All five players were involved in nearly every play.
> There was little if any focus on the one man isloation play or on the two
> man game. In terms of passing, truly competent shooting, and playing
> without the ball, the international game was clearly superior. On the
other
> hand, if the game were played with NBA referees and rules, the outcome
would
> probably have been different.
>
> The question is what rules or policies or practices are operating in the
> NBA that drive teams to focus on certain types of players and certain
types
> of play. What can or should be changed?
>
>
>
>




30 Aug 2004 14:18:04
caseystengel
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

there's no real coaching in the usa. here it's about getting superior
athletes to run and jump and beat their man one on one. if people stopped
watching the nba and stopped going to nba games maybe someone would get
the hint that most teams don't play as larry brown would say the right
way.the nba certainly has superior players but as basketball as it was
intended to be played , it's vastly inferior.



30 Aug 2004 20:36:51
Sale
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

Andrea Gruber wrote:

> Some interesting thougths from John LaVoy!
>
> Now, it has been a while since I saw a complete NBA game (I constantly
> followed the NBA in the '80 until 1994). I remember a kind of playing based
> on the one-on-one duels (2 players playing, 8 watching & fighting for
> position) but nevertheless everyone on the court of any NBA game in the '80
> was good, VERY GOOD, in the fundamental passing, shooting and dribbling.
> They maybe did not play "as a team", but they were very good basketball
> players "in the technical sense" of the game.
>
> Look at today's situation (I judge, and maybe I should not, from the NBA
> guys who were sent to Athens): they are great athletes, no doubt about it,
> but I would hardly define some of them basketball players. Many players
> could not shoot properly (free throws, let alone 3s!), pass or dribble (I
> recall somebody from Team USA, I think Stoudemire, on open court, dribbling
> the ball on his foot and sending it out! A newbie's mistake...). I am
> surprised, really, I did not think the fundamentals (shooting, passing,
> dribbling) were so little valued among NBA players these days.
>
> Team play is certainly a factor (for a collection of "unknowns", not so
> athletic players, as the Italians, it is THE FACTOR) for the "white" teams
> success in these Olympic Games, but I think that technically sound players
> are also an important factor.
>
> Last but not least, as an Italian, I congratulate Argentina for the win in
> the final. They undoubtedly were the best team in the tournament and
> Argentina deserved the gold all the way, especially after the "refs'
> messed-up" loss against Yougoslavia in WBC 2002!
>
>
> Saluti&baci
>

I agree with what you said about the NBA, and as a Serbian, I also
congratulate Argentina, they truly deserved this Gold. As for the loss
of the one in 2002...I think calling it "refs'messed-up" is a bit
unfair. It wasn't the refs who lost 8 points lead in the final 2 minutes
(before the overtime), Argentina did. The same thing happened to our
team in this Olympics - twice. I think it's called "team immaturity" or
some such.

--
Sale


30 Aug 2004 21:15:54
punk
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

I'm afraid the NBA game has degenerated into a type of one-on-one
basketball, that is characterized by selfish play, flashy no-look passes and
overpaid superstars showcasing their talent. This type of play is epitomized
by Allan Iverson and Stephon Marbury, to name afew. Except for the Pistons
and a few other teams, none of them do not play like a team. It's really a
sad state of affairs for USA Men's Basketball. I remember the days when we
only sent amateur, or college, players and we would still win handily. Then,
after that controversial loss to Russia, when the US team refused to accept
their silver medals, we started sending pros in 1992 and the likes of
Jordan, Magic, Bird and company, completely dominated the play. Now, we have
to settle for a bronze medal.

Some suggestions I've heard are as follows. Send the NBA championship team
because they would play like a team though if they have foreign players,
obviously, they will not be able to participate. Another suggestion is to
pick the coach first and then let the coach pick the players since hopefully
he would be a better judge of who can play together. Currently, the players
are essentially picked by Reebok, Nike and other corporate interests. They
may be good individually, but they do not play like a team.

"John LaVoy" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I wonder. I did not actually see the USA team play, but I watched a
number
> of other games. The issue to me was not the teams, nor was it the
players.
> The issue was the game itself. The FIBA game was just a lot more fun to
> watch than the NBA. All five players were involved in nearly every play.
> There was little if any focus on the one man isloation play or on the two
> man game. In terms of passing, truly competent shooting, and playing
> without the ball, the international game was clearly superior. On the
other
> hand, if the game were played with NBA referees and rules, the outcome
would
> probably have been different.
>
> The question is what rules or policies or practices are operating in the
> NBA that drive teams to focus on certain types of players and certain
types
> of play. What can or should be changed?
>
>
>
>




31 Aug 2004 12:05:54
Andrea Gruber
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

It is true, as you suggest, Argentina was "afraid of winning" in 2002 and
lost lucidity in the final minutes of the 4th quarter. But I also think that
Sconocchini was knocked down quite clearly and deserved a coupled of free
throws... ;-)

Anyway, this is another story.

Saluti


"Sale" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Andrea Gruber wrote:
>
> > Some interesting thougths from John LaVoy!
> >
> > Now, it has been a while since I saw a complete NBA game (I constantly
> > followed the NBA in the '80 until 1994). I remember a kind of playing
based
> > on the one-on-one duels (2 players playing, 8 watching & fighting for
> > position) but nevertheless everyone on the court of any NBA game in the
'80
> > was good, VERY GOOD, in the fundamental passing, shooting and dribbling.
> > They maybe did not play "as a team", but they were very good basketball
> > players "in the technical sense" of the game.
> >
> > Look at today's situation (I judge, and maybe I should not, from the NBA
> > guys who were sent to Athens): they are great athletes, no doubt about
it,
> > but I would hardly define some of them basketball players. Many players
> > could not shoot properly (free throws, let alone 3s!), pass or dribble
(I
> > recall somebody from Team USA, I think Stoudemire, on open court,
dribbling
> > the ball on his foot and sending it out! A newbie's mistake...). I am
> > surprised, really, I did not think the fundamentals (shooting, passing,
> > dribbling) were so little valued among NBA players these days.
> >
> > Team play is certainly a factor (for a collection of "unknowns", not so
> > athletic players, as the Italians, it is THE FACTOR) for the "white"
teams
> > success in these Olympic Games, but I think that technically sound
players
> > are also an important factor.
> >
> > Last but not least, as an Italian, I congratulate Argentina for the win
in
> > the final. They undoubtedly were the best team in the tournament and
> > Argentina deserved the gold all the way, especially after the "refs'
> > messed-up" loss against Yougoslavia in WBC 2002!
> >
> >
> > Saluti&baci
> >
>
> I agree with what you said about the NBA, and as a Serbian, I also
> congratulate Argentina, they truly deserved this Gold. As for the loss
> of the one in 2002...I think calling it "refs'messed-up" is a bit
> unfair. It wasn't the refs who lost 8 points lead in the final 2 minutes
> (before the overtime), Argentina did. The same thing happened to our
> team in this Olympics - twice. I think it's called "team immaturity" or
> some such.
>
> --
> Sale




31 Aug 2004 11:28:08
John LaVoy
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?


"punk" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I'm afraid the NBA game has degenerated into a type of one-on-one
> basketball, that is characterized by selfish play, flashy no-look passes
and
> overpaid superstars showcasing their talent. This type of play is
epitomized
> by Allan Iverson and Stephon Marbury, to name afew. Except for the
Pistons
> and a few other teams, none of them do not play like a team. It's really a
> sad state of affairs for USA Men's Basketball. I remember the days when we
> only sent amateur, or college, players and we would still win handily.
Then,
> after that controversial loss to Russia, when the US team refused to
accept
> their silver medals, we started sending pros in 1992 and the likes of
> Jordan, Magic, Bird and company, completely dominated the play. Now, we
have
> to settle for a bronze medal.
>
> Some suggestions I've heard are as follows. Send the NBA championship team
> because they would play like a team though if they have foreign players,
> obviously, they will not be able to participate. Another suggestion is to
> pick the coach first and then let the coach pick the players since
hopefully
> he would be a better judge of who can play together. Currently, the
players
> are essentially picked by Reebok, Nike and other corporate interests. They
> may be good individually, but they do not play like a team.
>
> "John LaVoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I wonder. I did not actually see the USA team play, but I watched a
> number
> > of other games. The issue to me was not the teams, nor was it the
> players.
> > The issue was the game itself. The FIBA game was just a lot more fun to
> > watch than the NBA. All five players were involved in nearly every
play.
> > There was little if any focus on the one man isloation play or on the
two
> > man game. In terms of passing, truly competent shooting, and playing
> > without the ball, the international game was clearly superior. On the
> other
> > hand, if the game were played with NBA referees and rules, the outcome
> would
> > probably have been different.
> >
> > The question is what rules or policies or practices are operating in
the
> > NBA that drive teams to focus on certain types of players and certain
> types
> > of play. What can or should be changed?

Still looking for indications of what can be done to change the game it the
States. The game is defined by the rules: the game IS the rules. Team are
constructed to be most succesful within the rules. In the 90's the rules
dicated that a two man isolation game with at least one man always behind
the arc was most successful. So teams were built around a good two man
combination, a spot up shooter, a rebounder and a defensive stopper.

The game has changed a bit from that, but I'd like to see a set of rules
that favor teams having more multi-dimensional players. WHat would those
rules be. I think allowing zone defenses to pack it in tight would be a
good thing: you could sacrifice some strength inside because you'd have
more bodies to cover up, and you'd need all your players to be able to make
the open 15 footer.








> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>




31 Aug 2004 12:26:25
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:28:08 -0400, "John LaVoy"
<[email protected] > wrote:
>> > of play. What can or should be changed?
>
>Still looking for indications of what can be done to change the game it the
>States. The game is defined by the rules: the game IS the rules. Team are
>constructed to be most succesful within the rules. In the 90's the rules
>dicated that a two man isolation game with at least one man always behind
>the arc was most successful. So teams were built around a good two man
>combination, a spot up shooter, a rebounder and a defensive stopper.
>
>The game has changed a bit from that, but I'd like to see a set of rules
>that favor teams having more multi-dimensional players. WHat would those
>rules be. I think allowing zone defenses to pack it in tight would be a
>good thing: you could sacrifice some strength inside because you'd have
>more bodies to cover up, and you'd need all your players to be able to make
>the open 15 footer.
>
Before the zones were allowed there were fewer options available.
That's one reason that I was always against outlawing the zone. Why
set too many limits on what can be done?

Now, there are other options available, but I think that NBA coaches
have been slow to adopt them. Remember when the zone was legalized,
there were many saying no one will use it, you can't win that way,
etc. I think they were wrong and were just unwilling to look at
anything new. Last year saw a lot more zone then the year before, and
I think its good for the game.

So what I'm saying is that there have already been rule changes put
into place, but they have not been completely explored yet.

Swyck


31 Aug 2004 19:30:57
Sale
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

Andrea Gruber wrote:
> It is true, as you suggest, Argentina was "afraid of winning" in 2002 and
> lost lucidity in the final minutes of the 4th quarter. But I also think that
> Sconocchini was knocked down quite clearly and deserved a coupled of free
> throws... ;-)

Some of my friends feel the same way you do about the Sconocchini
foul...unfortunately, I'm not so sure. Anyway, I think the closest to
the truth probbably is that the reffs simply didn't want (or dare) to
decide the World Champions themselves.

> Anyway, this is another story.

In deed it is...

> Saluti
--
Sale

saleng< >at<>verat<>net


01 Sep 2004 12:02:20
Andrea Gruber
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

Since you are looking for suggestions, here is one: teach these guys to hit
free throws!
;-)

Average percentage (over 8 olympic games) in ft shooting:

Italy 77 %
Lithuania 74 %
Argentina 70 %
USA 66 %

When a team is not hitting the shots from outside (3pt shooting for Team USA
was bad, in spite of the many open shots that the zone defenses allowed
them) and plays the ball inside, it is of *fundamental importance* to score
free throws on the (lots of) fouls eventually committed by the defence on
the tall guys near the ring.

Saluti&baci




"punk" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I'm afraid the NBA game has degenerated into a type of one-on-one
> basketball, that is characterized by selfish play, flashy no-look passes
and
> overpaid superstars showcasing their talent. This type of play is
epitomized
> by Allan Iverson and Stephon Marbury, to name afew. Except for the
Pistons
> and a few other teams, none of them do not play like a team. It's really a
> sad state of affairs for USA Men's Basketball. I remember the days when we
> only sent amateur, or college, players and we would still win handily.
Then,
> after that controversial loss to Russia, when the US team refused to
accept
> their silver medals, we started sending pros in 1992 and the likes of
> Jordan, Magic, Bird and company, completely dominated the play. Now, we
have
> to settle for a bronze medal.
>
> Some suggestions I've heard are as follows. Send the NBA championship team
> because they would play like a team though if they have foreign players,
> obviously, they will not be able to participate. Another suggestion is to
> pick the coach first and then let the coach pick the players since
hopefully
> he would be a better judge of who can play together. Currently, the
players
> are essentially picked by Reebok, Nike and other corporate interests. They
> may be good individually, but they do not play like a team.
>
> "John LaVoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I wonder. I did not actually see the USA team play, but I watched a
> number
> > of other games. The issue to me was not the teams, nor was it the
> players.
> > The issue was the game itself. The FIBA game was just a lot more fun to
> > watch than the NBA. All five players were involved in nearly every
play.
> > There was little if any focus on the one man isloation play or on the
two
> > man game. In terms of passing, truly competent shooting, and playing
> > without the ball, the international game was clearly superior. On the
> other
> > hand, if the game were played with NBA referees and rules, the outcome
> would
> > probably have been different.
> >
> > The question is what rules or policies or practices are operating in
the
> > NBA that drive teams to focus on certain types of players and certain
> types
> > of play. What can or should be changed?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>




01 Sep 2004 10:23:26
John LaVoy
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?


"Andrea Gruber" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Since you are looking for suggestions, here is one: teach these guys to
hit
> free throws!
> ;-)
>
> Average percentage (over 8 olympic games) in ft shooting:
>
> Italy 77 %
> Lithuania 74 %
> Argentina 70 %
> USA 66 %

Good stat to have. There isn't any difference in free throw shooting rules.
>
>




01 Sep 2004 14:29:16
Bob Koca
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

>
> Good stat to have. There isn't any difference in free throw shooting rules.


The specs for the weight of the ball overlap but are higher for the
international game. No idea how important that is. (21.0-22.8 ounces
for INTL vs 20 - 21.5 ounces for NBA)

,Bob Koca


02 Sep 2004 15:55:48
punk
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

You may be on to something here because if you look a the NBA, the best
shooters are probably foreigners with the likes of Peja in Sacto and others.
I don't have the exact stats, but I bet if you look at the NBA stats, the
foreign players will have better shooting percentages. Assuming this is
true, I wonder why the foreigners are better shooters.

"John LaVoy" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Andrea Gruber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > Since you are looking for suggestions, here is one: teach these guys to
> hit
> > free throws!
> > ;-)
> >
> > Average percentage (over 8 olympic games) in ft shooting:
> >
> > Italy 77 %
> > Lithuania 74 %
> > Argentina 70 %
> > USA 66 %
>
> Good stat to have. There isn't any difference in free throw shooting
rules.
> >
> >
>
>




02 Sep 2004 16:24:39
igor eduardo küpfer
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 15:55:48 GMT, "punk" <[email protected] > wrote in
<[email protected] >:

>You may be on to something here because if you look a the NBA, the best
>shooters are probably foreigners with the likes of Peja in Sacto and others.
>I don't have the exact stats, but I bet if you look at the NBA stats, the
>foreign players will have better shooting percentages. Assuming this is
>true, I wonder why the foreigners are better shooters.
>

It's not true. If you look at players who had more than 100 attempts last
season, the furriners shot 46.7% while the Yanks shot 46.5%.

--

--------------------------------------------------------------
| best, | You're doing a lot of choppin' |
| ed | but no chips are flyin.' |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Watch the spam trap -- the domain is rogers


02 Sep 2004 18:05:57
Neil Cerutti
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

In article <[email protected] >, igor eduardo küpfer wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 15:55:48 GMT, "punk" <[email protected]> wrote in
><[email protected]>:
>
>>You may be on to something here because if you look a the NBA, the best
>>shooters are probably foreigners with the likes of Peja in Sacto and others.
>>I don't have the exact stats, but I bet if you look at the NBA stats, the
>>foreign players will have better shooting percentages. Assuming this is
>>true, I wonder why the foreigners are better shooters.
>>
>
> It's not true. If you look at players who had more than 100
> attempts last season, the furriners shot 46.7% while the Yanks
> shot 46.5%.

Correction: It's true, but it's insignificant.

--
Neil Cerutti
"Sometimes, dead is better." --Pet Sematary


02 Sep 2004 18:14:31
igor eduardo küpfer
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

On 2 Sep 2004 18:05:57 GMT, Neil Cerutti <[email protected] > wrote in
<[email protected] >:

>In article <[email protected]>, igor eduardo küpfer wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 15:55:48 GMT, "punk" <[email protected]> wrote in
>><[email protected]>:
>>
>>>You may be on to something here because if you look a the NBA, the best
>>>shooters are probably foreigners with the likes of Peja in Sacto and others.
>>>I don't have the exact stats, but I bet if you look at the NBA stats, the
>>>foreign players will have better shooting percentages. Assuming this is
>>>true, I wonder why the foreigners are better shooters.
>>>
>>
>> It's not true. If you look at players who had more than 100
>> attempts last season, the furriners shot 46.7% while the Yanks
>> shot 46.5%.
>
>Correction: It's true, but it's insignificant.

Haven't forgiven me for the "here's your sign" correction yet, have you?

It's only true if you calculate it in certain ways: above, I averaged the eFG%
of all the qualified players. If instead you weight the eFG% by FGA, the Yanks
lead in shooting accuracy by an insignificant amount.

Of course, my qualification (100+ attempts) was arbitrary. If you take an
average of *all* player's eFG% weighted by attempts, you'll see a significant
advantage for the furriners. A likely reason: foreign mediocre players are
more likely to play at home, while mediocre US players are more likely to play
in the NBA.

Other qualifications lead to different answers. The upshot: there is no
definite answer other than "there is no significant difference in shooting
accuracy between Yankee NBAers and foreign NBAers."

--

--------------------------------------------------------------
| best, | You're doing a lot of choppin' |
| ed | but no chips are flyin.' |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Watch the spam trap -- the domain is rogers


02 Sep 2004 19:28:24
Neil Cerutti
Re: Are We Ignoring the Real Issues?

In article <[email protected] >, igor eduardo küpfer wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2004 18:05:57 GMT, Neil Cerutti <[email protected]> wrote in
><[email protected]>:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, igor eduardo küpfer wrote:
>>> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 15:55:48 GMT, "punk" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>><[email protected]>:
>>>
>>>>You may be on to something here because if you look a the NBA, the best
>>>>shooters are probably foreigners with the likes of Peja in Sacto and others.
>>>>I don't have the exact stats, but I bet if you look at the NBA stats, the
>>>>foreign players will have better shooting percentages. Assuming this is
>>>>true, I wonder why the foreigners are better shooters.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not true. If you look at players who had more than 100
>>> attempts last season, the furriners shot 46.7% while the Yanks
>>> shot 46.5%.
>>
>>Correction: It's true, but it's insignificant.
>
> Haven't forgiven me for the "here's your sign" correction yet,
> have you?

Of course not! Know anybody who want to buy a sign? I'm tired
of carrying mine around. ;)

> It's only true if you calculate it in certain ways: above, I
> averaged the eFG% of all the qualified players. If instead you
> weight the eFG% by FGA, the Yanks lead in shooting accuracy by
> an insignificant amount.

I was merely commenting on the numbers you posted, since I thought
your post was mildly ironic.

> Of course, my qualification (100+ attempts) was arbitrary. If
> you take an average of *all* player's eFG% weighted by
> attempts, you'll see a significant advantage for the furriners.
> A likely reason: foreign mediocre players are more likely to
> play at home, while mediocre US players are more likely to play
> in the NBA.
>
> Other qualifications lead to different answers. The upshot:
> there is no definite answer other than "there is no significant
> difference in shooting accuracy between Yankee NBAers and
> foreign NBAers."

Well, OK, then.

--
Neil Cerutti
"Sometimes, dead is better." --Pet Sematary