20 Sep 2006 19:29:58
Jeremy Holt
Snow Board Bindings

Hey guys..

i was wondering if anyone had some intel on what were the best bindings
to buy overall and also what were the best coming out this year.

i am heading to whistler for the season, so would like to get some good
all round bindings. I generally like to stick with the powder as much
as possible.

Some that look good are the Burton p1's...

anyway, any comments appreciated..

Cheers
J



21 Sep 2006 09:46:29
Neil Gendzwill
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Jeremy Holt wrote:
> Hey guys..
>
> i was wondering if anyone had some intel on what were the best bindings
> to buy overall and also what were the best coming out this year.

Bomber TD2 step-ins. But maybe you're looking for some inefficient
softie bindings, in which case it really depends on what you want to do.
More details about your riding style would help the softie gurus.

Neil


21 Sep 2006 16:30:40
Christopher Cox
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Neil Gendzwill wrote:
> Jeremy Holt wrote:
>
>> Hey guys..
>>
>> i was wondering if anyone had some intel on what were the best bindings
>> to buy overall and also what were the best coming out this year.
>
>
> Bomber TD2 step-ins. But maybe you're looking for some inefficient
> softie bindings, in which case it really depends on what you want to do.
> More details about your riding style would help the softie gurus.
>
> Neil


<SARCASM >
Yeah, those stiffer boots certainly performed at the Olympic boarder
cross. Just about as well as they perform at our regional events.
</SARCASM >

In my families collection we have:

Nitro MiniPro's
Ride LS (Child)
Arcane Step-in's
Drake F-50 Lady
Burton Mission's Dark
Salomon SPX Pro
Ride Tomcat
TechNine Ali Goulet
SnowPro SP's

Bindings with the most use:
TechNine Ali Goulet
Arcane Step-in's
Salomon SPX Pro
Drake F-50 Lady
Ride LS (Child)

Service History:
Drake F-50 Lady - Lost/replaced screw from ankle strap
Burton Mission's Dark - Snapped ankle strap, lost flad
TechNine Ali Goulet - Ladders and ratchets need replaced yearly.
Lost screw attaching ankle strap
SnowPro - Replace ladders yearly. They are way soft.

Observations:
The build quality on the Rides are exceptional, but are stiff and heavy.
My son loves the Salomon's feel and uses them for general riding and
goofing off. Tough, light, nice.
TechNine was O.k. because of their warranty, but the company is becoming
more difficult to deal with.
SnowPro's are difficult to adjust (Million hole plate with none of the
holes in the right spot) and have soft ladders which get ripped up.


Just picked up some Nitro Raiden's and will let the group know latter.





21 Sep 2006 11:27:07
Neil Gendzwill
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Christopher Cox wrote:
>
> <SARCASM>
> Yeah, those stiffer boots certainly performed at the Olympic boarder
> cross. Just about as well as they perform at our regional events.
> </SARCASM>

Jasey-jay Anderson, #1 sbx in the world cup last year on hardboots, #2
the previous year. Didn't have a great olympics, it's true (5th, I think?)

Anyways, both systems can work OK in sbx, depending on the course.

Neil


21 Sep 2006 18:41:19
Christopher Cox
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Neil Gendzwill wrote:
> Christopher Cox wrote:
>
>>
>> <SARCASM>
>> Yeah, those stiffer boots certainly performed at the Olympic boarder
>> cross. Just about as well as they perform at our regional events.
>> </SARCASM>
>
>
> Jasey-jay Anderson, #1 sbx in the world cup last year on hardboots, #2
> the previous year. Didn't have a great olympics, it's true (5th, I think?)
>
> Anyways, both systems can work OK in sbx, depending on the course.
>
> Neil

And the rider.
A riders talent with a said system seems to be the overwhelming factor
in determing how well they do.

As it should be...:-)

Later!


21 Sep 2006 12:55:08
Neil Gendzwill
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Christopher Cox wrote:
> Neil Gendzwill wrote:
>
>> Anyways, both systems can work OK in sbx, depending on the course.
>>
>
> And the rider.
> A riders talent with a said system seems to be the overwhelming factor
> in determing how well they do.

Jasey-jay is a phenom anyway you slice it. However, hardboot systems
are better at turning, softboots at jumping. At events like PGS where
you have to turn hard on a rutted, icy course and the penalty for a bad
turn is often a DQ, soft boots just don't cut it no matter who's
driving. That's why nobody races PGS at a world cup level in softies.

SBX is a combination of turning and jumping skills (and a few other
things). Course design can strongly affect which system works better by
emphasizing one skill or the other. My understanding is that there is
some deliberate design work going on in SBX courses to make them more
softie-competitive. This may be a marketing thing as the vast majority
of riders don't relate to hard boots. But you've still got to be able
to turn, and you can't make the jumps too ridiculous, so the hardbooters
are still in there. If the jumps and berms were flattened out a little,
the softie riders would be hard-pressed to keep up.

Many recreational riders don't do a lot of jumping, but everyone has to
turn. That's why I advocate hard boots for all-mountain riding, as I
think they're an option most people aren't even aware of.

Neil


21 Sep 2006 20:08:00
Christopher Cox
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Neil Gendzwill wrote:
> Christopher Cox wrote:
>
>> Neil Gendzwill wrote:
>>
>>> Anyways, both systems can work OK in sbx, depending on the course.
>>>
>>
>> And the rider.
>> A riders talent with a said system seems to be the overwhelming factor
>> in determing how well they do.
>
>
> Jasey-jay is a phenom anyway you slice it. However, hardboot systems
> are better at turning, softboots at jumping. At events like PGS where
> you have to turn hard on a rutted, icy course and the penalty for a bad
> turn is often a DQ, soft boots just don't cut it no matter who's
> driving. That's why nobody races PGS at a world cup level in softies.
>
> SBX is a combination of turning and jumping skills (and a few other
> things). Course design can strongly affect which system works better by
> emphasizing one skill or the other. My understanding is that there is
> some deliberate design work going on in SBX courses to make them more
> softie-competitive. This may be a marketing thing as the vast majority
> of riders don't relate to hard boots. But you've still got to be able
> to turn, and you can't make the jumps too ridiculous, so the hardbooters
> are still in there. If the jumps and berms were flattened out a little,
> the softie riders would be hard-pressed to keep up.
>
> Many recreational riders don't do a lot of jumping, but everyone has to
> turn. That's why I advocate hard boots for all-mountain riding, as I
> think they're an option most people aren't even aware of.
>
> Neil


Hello Neil,

I would agree that allot of the general boarding public is not aware of
the hard boot option. That being said, you may being selling the
hardcore soft booter's short. In S and GS, I have seen soft booters
squeeze their knees together around corners, bending the board, allowing
for a much tighter turn. One of the most inventive, and humorous,
technique was a guy who bent down, leaned forward lifting the back of
the board up, and lifted the front of the board up with his hand while
in the straights. This minimized the amount of board that was in contact
with the snow allowing him to go faster.

Amazing Talent.

I am not selling hard boot riders short. If they know how to ride, they
are FAST, way fast.

Chris


21 Sep 2006 22:06:13
Markus Dolic
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Neil Gendzwill wrote:

> Many recreational riders don't do a lot of jumping, but everyone has to
> turn. That's why I advocate hard boots for all-mountain riding, as I
> think they're an option most people aren't even aware of.

which is hardly a surprise, given the fact that most big sports have
98% of their shelves filled with softies and maybe 2 or 3 pairs of
hardboots hidden somewhere back in a corner.
at least that's the way it is here in germany... i had to search quite
a bit 2 years ago to find a pair of hardboots with a half-decent fit.

m
--
np: Ricardo Marrero & The Group - A Taste Of Latin
ICQ# 8140105
public GnuPG/PGP key available @ http://dolic.com/pubkey.asc


21 Sep 2006 15:04:34
Neil Gendzwill
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Markus Dolic wrote:
> Neil Gendzwill wrote:
>
>
>>Many recreational riders don't do a lot of jumping, but everyone has to
>>turn. That's why I advocate hard boots for all-mountain riding, as I
>>think they're an option most people aren't even aware of.
>
>
> which is hardly a surprise, given the fact that most big sports have
> 98% of their shelves filled with softies and maybe 2 or 3 pairs of
> hardboots hidden somewhere back in a corner.
> at least that's the way it is here in germany... i had to search quite
> a bit 2 years ago to find a pair of hardboots with a half-decent fit.

Yes. But now the hardboot crowd has the internet, which allows us to
pool our resources and get stuff. You can get equipment through a
half-dozen online suppliers, and the community is strong through online
forums like bomberonline. But I don't think it's getting much bigger.

Neil


21 Sep 2006 15:09:02
Neil Gendzwill
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Christopher Cox wrote:
> That being said, you may being selling the
> hardcore soft booter's short.

No, the guys that are good can be amazingly good. But they still won't
hack it on a world cup PGS course. There's a limit to the equipment.

> In S and GS, I have seen soft booters
> squeeze their knees together around corners, bending the board, allowing
> for a much tighter turn.

I'm not sure that's actually bending the board, more that the board is
being bent hard in the turn allowing them to get their knees together.
In hardbooting it's not considered especially good technique - knees
apart is better.


> One of the most inventive, and humorous,
> technique was a guy who bent down, leaned forward lifting the back of
> the board up, and lifted the front of the board up with his hand while
> in the straights. This minimized the amount of board that was in contact
> with the snow allowing him to go faster.

I'm not convinced that would actually let him go faster. Longer running
surface is generally better for glide, which is one reason why DH and
speed skis are so long. Plus I'm trying to imagine keeping any kind of
aerodynamic position while doing that, and failing...

Neil


21 Sep 2006 17:32:59
lonerider
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Jeremy Holt wrote:
> Hey guys..
>
> i was wondering if anyone had some intel on what were the best bindings
> to buy overall and also what were the best coming out this year.
>
> i am heading to whistler for the season, so would like to get some good
> all round bindings. I generally like to stick with the powder as much
> as possible.
>
> Some that look good are the Burton p1's...

Whistler has notoriously variable weather over the season and depending
on what elevation you are at. You'll want an all-arounding binding that
light (fun for powder), but sturdy (when you hit the ice/chop at lower
elevations) and has rather few parts that can break.

I have a pair of Burton P1MDs from a few years ago and they are a good
freestyle binding that are really light so they ride great in powder.
They are a little too flexy for faster freeriding in my opinion (I
think the more recent P1s are stiffer). I broke the FLAD (on my
lead-leg so it could *not* have been the chair lift), but Burton sent
me a replacement highback for free (I bought it used so I didn't even
have a receipt). They sent me a replacement set of screwdriver-less
bolts.

I also have ridden Salomon bindings (SP4, SPX6) and they are a very
nice solid binding, medium weight and ultra-sturdy. I found the back
heelcup part of the high back to stick out too much and would dig into
the snow if I laid down a really hard heelside. (For those of you
wondering if my setup - I was riding 18/6 angles with size 26cm feet on
a 24cm waisted board, the bindings were centered so that I got a little
bit of drag on both sides once I tipped the board past 55 degrees.
Cranking up the anges to 36/30 would almost fix it. As would getting
Palmer Lift plates).

I really like the Nidecker 800s I have as well, they have a riser pad
built in to avoid boot drag and the eva foam in it absorbs shock. The
straps are big and beefy and the highback is pretty stiff. They only
have 4-hole disks as far as I can tell and you can't use generics
because the built-in riser pad raises it a bit.

I personally don't like the harsher ride of metal baseplates like Ride
or Catek - although both are very well made and super tough. If you are
riding in powder that won't be a problem... but again the icy stuff at
the lower elevations... Oh and don't worry about Neil, he's the
resident hardbooter zealot - he makes a fool of himself promoting
hardboots so moderates hardbooters like Mike T and I don't have to :)



21 Sep 2006 19:49:24
Mike T
Re: Snow Board Bindings

> Oh and don't worry about Neil, he's the
> resident hardbooter zealot - he makes a fool of himself promoting
> hardboots so moderates hardbooters like Mike T and I don't have to :)

LOL!

Regarding soft bindings, it's been a while since I've tried anything but the
Salomons, mine are SP6's from 01/02 I think. I like Salomons because the
straps and highback are IMHO very ergonomically shaped. What I don't like,
is that the heelcup position cannot be adjusted closer to the center disks
or farther away. Unless the S, M or L size happens to center you across
the board, you'll need to deal with being toeside or heelside heavy or turn
your disks 90* and lose a lot of stance width adjustment.

Perhaps they've fixed that this year.

My wife has some 05-06 Ride Diva bindings that she likes - very adjustable,
quite light, and they have some dampening to take the edge from the metal
off. I suspect there is a "men's" version with similar features.


Mike T






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22 Sep 2006 02:57:52
Christopher Cox
Re: Snow Board Bindings


> I'm not sure that's actually bending the board, more that the board is
> being bent hard in the turn allowing them to get their knees together.
> In hardbooting it's not considered especially good technique - knees
> apart is better.

Oh, he's bending it alright. I have tried it myself and it works rather
well. I am not a great boarder, but some of the best recommended it to
me. You can feel the difference (and awkwardness).

>
>
> I'm not convinced that would actually let him go faster. Longer running
> surface is generally better for glide, which is one reason why DH and
> speed skis are so long. Plus I'm trying to imagine keeping any kind of
> aerodynamic position while doing that, and failing...

He is rated 240 something in the world standings at this point. I am
with you as to the technique allowing for the board glide easier, or
more likely, since he is so low at that point he has very little wind
drag. My guess is the latter. The more you stand up, the more frontal
area you present, the more drag you create.

Chris


22 Sep 2006 06:26:30
56fish
Re: Snow Board Bindings


Jeremy Holt wrote:
> Hey guys..
>
> i was wondering if anyone had some intel on what were the best bindings
> to buy overall and also what were the best coming out this year.
>
> i am heading to whistler for the season, so would like to get some good
> all round bindings. I generally like to stick with the powder as much
> as possible.
>
> Some that look good are the Burton p1's...
>
> anyway, any comments appreciated..
>
> Cheers
> J



22 Sep 2006 06:30:42
56fish
Re: Snow Board Bindings


Jeremy Holt wrote:
> Hey guys..
>
> i was wondering if anyone had some intel on what were the best bindings
> to buy overall and also what were the best coming out this year.
>
> i am heading to whistler for the season, so would like to get some good
> all round bindings. I generally like to stick with the powder as much
> as possible.
>
> Some that look good are the Burton p1's...
>
> anyway, any comments appreciated..
>
> Cheers
> J

J,

P1's rule! I ride woods & deeper snow at Jay. Medium flex and super
comfy - don't know the bindings are there. Which is how Gary Fisher
thinks makes the best bike - works so well you don't even think about
it.



22 Sep 2006 08:45:19
David Peacock
Re: Snow Board Bindings

Neil Gendzwill <[email protected] > wrote:
> Many recreational riders don't do a lot of jumping, but everyone has to
> turn. That's why I advocate hard boots for all-mountain riding, as I
> think they're an option most people aren't even aware of.

I am a pretty new rider, I have never tried hard boots. With this in
mind, my opinions may be way off.

For general purpose recreational riding, I thought the main reason the
soft boots were so popular is simply because they are comfortable. I can
be in them all day, walk around, hike up the hill, even drive my pickup
to and from the hill - all with comfort.

Watching people in hard boots waddle around pretty much tells me that I
don't want to try them until (if ever) I reach that level of competitive
riding.

$0.02

--
David Peacock - [email protected]
http://quasicanuck.blogspot.com/


22 Sep 2006 11:02:27
tg
Re: Snow Board Bindings

snipped
> For general purpose recreational riding, I thought the main reason the
> soft boots were so popular is simply because they are comfortable. I can
> be in them all day, walk around, hike up the hill, even drive my pickup
> to and from the hill - all with comfort.
>
> Watching people in hard boots waddle around pretty much tells me that I
> don't want to try them until (if ever) I reach that level of competitive
> riding.
>
snipped

That is the great thing about snowboarding - you can pick pretty much any
type of equipment (from most any manufacturer) without being forced into a
single solution for board, boots, or bindings. It appears as if skis are
getting more limiting for that option with the integration of bindings with
the ski. Look at all of the options we have with regular step ins, Flow and
Cinch style step ins, standard straps, and hard boot setups.

Personally, I have Flows, Burton P1 Carbons, Burton P1s with Burton Ion and
Salomon Malmute boots and Burton Triumph and Fish boards with a Nitro Storm
thrown in. Pick a snow condition and what you want to do, pick a setup,
have fun, end of story! However, now that my oldest son is almost as tall as
me, I think I will end up an option short of what I am used to!

Really want to try the new Burton CO2 asymmetric bindings to see if the
canted ergonomic highbacks make a difference.
And its snowing out West! Check out the webcams!

http://breckenridge.snow.com/mtn.cams.asp

http://www.snowbird.com/ski_board/mtncams.html




22 Sep 2006 10:11:03
Neil Gendzwill
Re: Snow Board Bindings

David Peacock wrote:
>
> For general purpose recreational riding, I thought the main reason the
> soft boots were so popular is simply because they are comfortable. I can
> be in them all day, walk around, hike up the hill, even drive my pickup
> to and from the hill - all with comfort.

That's certainly part of the "sell" of them. There's also a great deal
of the attitude that snowboarding is not skiing, and so people reject
equipment that looks too much like ski equipment. Also the equipment is
so hard to find that 99% of people don't even know what it is, never
mind consider that it might be an option.

I agree that as a beginner, soft boots are probably the way to go.
People have learned on hard boots but most of the hardbooters I know
would suggest starting on softies - they are just more forgiving.

When you start pushing yourself past the intermediate plateau, that's
where I feel plates become a viable option. As Chris pointed out,
there's a lot of riders that carve hard on softies too. It might be
eventually that the soft equipment gets so good that hard boots are no
longer an advantage - some people feel that point is already here,
obviously I disagree.

Hard boots still give you much more leverage over the board and let you
pressure the edge more easily. If you like to ride a forward stance as
I do, hard boots work much better. As soon as you push softies much
past 40 degrees or so, the lack of lateral stiffness really affects how
functional they are. From a convenience point of view, step-in bindings
for hard boots work absolutely great, but they have yet to come up with
one for softies that beats a good strap system. I love my step-ins!

There are also issues of comfort and safety. A lot of high performance
riders don't find softies comfortable as the bindings create pressure
points when tightened for performance. I switched because of that pain
and because at the speeds I travel I felt my ankles just weren't
supported enough. I admit that I haven't been in softies for years and
years so I don't have personal experience to back up whether this would
still be the case for me. I have heard from quite a few people who have
switched recently for those reasons, so clearly there are still comfort
issues for performance riders.

Neil

Neil