20 Mar 2006 17:21:55
Terje Henriksen
Steira forced to stop.

In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced Steira to
reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world cup. In my opinion,
it would have been better if she had continued on full speed, giving herself
a chance to win and a possibility that Scott would hit the wall.

I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that is bad
sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in such cases, and
chose another trainer.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




20 Mar 2006 18:37:37
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Well, if the action pays for next season's training and travelling...
For me it would depend on the race, and my own carreer. A certain first WC
win in the last race for a arting sponsor, I'd not easy "sell". New sponsor,
good pay...it's not sportive, but there will be other races. Knowing I can
win was always as good as the winning itself. I look at my level, not just
my results. I sport for myself, not the audience.

Did the trainer discuss it in advance, or did he come up with the idea
during the race itself, when Steira was doing better than anticipated,
perhaps?


"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]
> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced Steira to
> reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world cup. In my
opinion,
> it would have been better if she had continued on full speed, giving
herself
> a chance to win and a possibility that Scott would hit the wall.
>
> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that is
bad
> sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in such cases, and
> chose another trainer.
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>
>




20 Mar 2006 12:30:55
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Team strategies are not unheard of in cross country skiing and they
are, of course, an essential part of cycling.



20 Mar 2006 14:36:17
Gene Goldenfeld
Re: Steira forced to stop.

What newspaper?

"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote:

> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced
> Steira to reduce the speed in order to help Bj=F8rgen win the world
> cup. In my opinion, it would have been better if she had continued on
> full speed, giving herself a chance to win and a possibility that
> Scott would hit the wall.
>=20
> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that
> is bad sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in
> such cases, and chose another trainer.
>=20
> --=20
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes=20
>=20
>=20


20 Mar 2006 22:07:30
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced Steira to
> reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world cup. In my
opinion,
> it would have been better if she had continued on full speed, giving
herself
> a chance to win and a possibility that Scott would hit the wall.
>
> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that is
bad
> sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in such cases, and
> chose another trainer.
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>
>

I read Bjorgen came in at 5th. Would 6th place finish knock Bjorgen off
overall Worldcup title? Did Steira have a real chance at overtaking Scott?




20 Mar 2006 23:27:40
Terje Mathisen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

ellis wrote:
> "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced Steira to
>> reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world cup. In my
> opinion,
>> it would have been better if she had continued on full speed, giving
> herself
>> a chance to win and a possibility that Scott would hit the wall.
>>
>> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that is
> bad
>> sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in such cases, and
>> chose another trainer.
>>
>
> I read Bjorgen came in at 5th. Would 6th place finish knock Bjorgen off
> overall Worldcup title? Did Steira have a real chance at overtaking Scott?

Bjørgen was 4th, I think she must have been outside the top 10 to drop
the title.

On NRK the coach said that they had discussed tactics before the race,
making sureBjørgen retained the cup which she had lead the entire season
was priority 1.

Steira was welcome to try to win, but not to do all the work for Scott,
trying to pull ahead.

Terje
--
- <[email protected] >
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"


21 Mar 2006 00:30:48
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
> Well, if the action pays for next season's training and travelling...
> For me it would depend on the race, and my own carreer. A certain
> first WC win in the last race for a arting sponsor, I'd not easy
> "sell". New sponsor, good pay...it's not sportive, but there will be
> other races. Knowing I can win was always as good as the winning
> itself. I look at my level, not just my results. I sport for myself,
> not the audience.
>
> Did the trainer discuss it in advance, or did he come up with the idea
> during the race itself, when Steira was doing better than anticipated,
> perhaps?

It was discussed the evening before, and the trainer had said that the most
importent thing was for Bjørgen to win the world cup.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes

>
>
> "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]
>> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced
>> Steira to reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world
>> cup. In my opinion, it would have been better if she had continued
>> on full speed, giving herself a chance to win and a possibility that
>> Scott would hit the wall.
>>
>> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that
>> is bad sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in
>> such cases, and chose another trainer.
>>
>> --
>> Terje Henriksen
>> Kirkenes




21 Mar 2006 00:33:11
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

[email protected] wrote:
> Team strategies are not unheard of in cross country skiing and they
> are, of course, an essential part of cycling.

This type is unheard of in cross country skiing, and it takes the glow off
Scotts victory. One trains to be best, not to help others win.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




21 Mar 2006 00:35:30
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

>
> "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced
>> Steira to reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world
>> cup. In my opinion, it would have been better if she had continued on
>> full speed, giving herself a chance to win and a possibility that
>> Scott would hit the wall.
>>
>> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that
>> is bad sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in
>> such cases, and chose another trainer.

> What newspaper?

Finnmarken, local area newspaper form the area where Steira has grown up.
Maybe you can find it on the internet.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




21 Mar 2006 00:38:04
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
> Well, if the action pays for next season's training and travelling...
> For me it would depend on the race, and my own carreer. A certain
> first WC win in the last race for a arting sponsor, I'd not easy
> "sell". New sponsor, good pay...it's not sportive, but there will be
> other races. Knowing I can win was always as good as the winning
> itself. I look at my level, not just my results. I sport for myself,
> not the audience.

It is not good for anyone to know that one competitor was not allowed to do
her best.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes






20 Mar 2006 23:52:11
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Mathisen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> ellis wrote:
> > "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> >> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced Steira
to
> >> reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world cup. In my
> > opinion,
> >> it would have been better if she had continued on full speed, giving
> > herself
> >> a chance to win and a possibility that Scott would hit the wall.
> >>
> >> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that is
> > bad
> >> sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in such cases,
and
> >> chose another trainer.
> >>
> >
> > I read Bjorgen came in at 5th. Would 6th place finish knock Bjorgen off
> > overall Worldcup title? Did Steira have a real chance at overtaking
Scott?
>
> Bjørgen was 4th, I think she must have been outside the top 10 to drop
> the title.
>
> On NRK the coach said that they had discussed tactics before the race,
> making sureBjørgen retained the cup which she had lead the entire season
> was priority 1.
>



> Steira was welcome to try to win, but not to do all the work for Scott,
> trying to pull ahead.


Well, that makes sense from Norwegian team's point of view. If the coach
had told Steira outright during a leg of the race, Don't win the race, that
is outrageous, but it doesn't sound like that is the case. Steira came in
just 1.80sec behind Scott, so it does look like Steira gave it her best at
the finish line.






20 Mar 2006 18:38:43
Gene Goldenfeld
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Two places down, 9.3 seconds on the finish list would have changed the
final results (-20 points).

Gene


Terje Mathisen <[email protected] > wrote:

> Bj=F8rgen was 4th, I think she must have been outside the top 10 to
> drop the title.
>=20
> On NRK the coach said that they had discussed tactics before the
> race, making sureBj=F8rgen retained the cup which she had lead the
> entire season was priority 1.
>=20
> Steira was welcome to try to win, but not to do all the work for
> Scott, trying to pull ahead.
>=20
> Terje


20 Mar 2006 19:25:55
Gene Goldenfeld
Re: Steira forced to stop.

They seem to have taken it down, assuming it was up. A search for
articles about Steira starts with Holmenkollen.

Gene

"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
>=20
> >
> > "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced
> >> Steira to reduce the speed in order to help Bj=F8rgen win the world
> >> cup. In my opinion, it would have been better if she had continued
> >> on full speed, giving herself a chance to win and a possibility
> >> that Scott would hit the wall.
> >>
> >> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win;
> >> that is bad sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the
> >> trainers in such cases, and chose another trainer.
>=20
> > What newspaper?
>=20
> Finnmarken, local area newspaper form the area where Steira has grown
> up. Maybe you can find it on the internet.
>=20
> --=20
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes=20
>=20
>=20


21 Mar 2006 04:58:17
Scott Elliot
Re: Steira forced to stop.

I don't understand the strategy at all. For Scott to have won the WC she
would have had to win the race and Bjorgen would have had to finish worse
than 8th.

If Steira had won, she would have taken 20 points away from Scott meaning
all Bjorgen had to do was finish in the top 20 skiers to retain the WC. The
only other way Steira could have had any effect on the final results would
have been to finish behind Bjorgen, but she did not do that.

This is the points schedule:

4.1.1 Women and men for individual distances:

1st place = 100 points 16th place = 15 points

2nd place = 80 points 17th place = 14 points

3rd place = 60 points 18th place = 13 points

4th place = 50 points 19th place = 12 points

5th place = 45 points 20th place = 11 points

6th place = 40 points 21st place = 10 points

7th place = 36 points 22nd place = 9 points

8th place = 32 points 23rd place = 8 points

9th place = 29 points 24th place = 7 points

10th place = 26 points 25th place = 6 points

11th place = 24 points 26th place = 5 points

12th place = 22 points 27th place = 4 points

13th place = 20 points 28th place = 3 points

14th place = 18 points 29th place = 2 points

15th place = 16 points 30th place = 1 point

Scott finished 20 points behind Bjorgen with Scott's win and Bjorgen's 4th
place finish.

Scott Elliot



"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced Steira to
> reduce the speed in order to help Bjørgen win the world cup. In my
> opinion, it would have been better if she had continued on full speed,
> giving herself a chance to win and a possibility that Scott would hit the
> wall.
>
> I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win; that is
> bad sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers in such cases,
> and chose another trainer.
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>




21 Mar 2006 08:10:15
Re: Steira forced to stop.

I don't want to be feisty, but it is not unheard of - I've head of it.



21 Mar 2006 08:25:05
Re: Steira forced to stop.

You might want to read this: fasterskier.com/training449.html



21 Mar 2006 23:14:43
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"ellis" <[email protected] > skrev i melding
news:LeHTf.20133$4%[email protected]

>
> Well, that makes sense from Norwegian team's point of view. If the coach
> had told Steira outright during a leg of the race, Don't win the race,
> that
> is outrageous, but it doesn't sound like that is the case. Steira came in
> just 1.80sec behind Scott, so it does look like Steira gave it her best at
> the finish line.

When Steira was told to slow down, it was the same as to tell her not to
win, because she would be second in every finish against Scott.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes





21 Mar 2006 23:18:17
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Mathisen" <[email protected] > skrev i melding
news:[email protected]

>
> Bjørgen was 4th, I think she must have been outside the top 10 to drop the
> title.

About 7, I think.
>
> On NRK the coach said that they had discussed tactics before the race,
> making sureBjørgen retained the cup which she had lead the entire season
> was priority 1.
>
> Steira was welcome to try to win, but not to do all the work for Scott,
> trying to pull ahead.

It's more logical to think that she was helping Bjørgen by trying to win so
that Scott got second place instead of first. Bjørgen was without a chance
to win anyway. I believe the trainers have som logical malfunctions.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




21 Mar 2006 23:23:31
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Scott Elliot" <[email protected] > skrev i melding
news:[email protected]
>I don't understand the strategy at all. For Scott to have won the WC she
>would have had to win the race and Bjorgen would have had to finish worse
>than 8th.
>
> If Steira had won, she would have taken 20 points away from Scott meaning
> all Bjorgen had to do was finish in the top 20 skiers to retain the WC.
> The only other way Steira could have had any effect on the final results
> would have been to finish behind Bjorgen, but she did not do that.

That's correct; strange trainers. Maybe they use the logic of psychologists?

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




22 Mar 2006 00:14:06
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Steira forced to stop.

"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]

> That's correct; strange trainers. Maybe they use the logic of
psychologists?


Imagine the trainers had not only gotten it wrong, but the final standings
would actually have helped Scott in the overall win. Wouldn't they have
looked bad then? Calling back Steira at the wrong moment, where she not only
could have won for herself, but also help Bjorgen win the big one...
Trainers got lucky. The winner's trainer is always right.




21 Mar 2006 16:44:31
Peter H.
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Scott wrote:

"I don't understand the strategy at all. For Scott to have
won the WC she would have had to win the race
and Bjorgen would have had to finish worse than 8th.
If Steira had won, she would have taken 20 points away
from Scott meaning all Bjorgen had to do was finish
in the top 20 skiers to retain the WC. The
only other way Steira could have had any effect
on the final results would have been to finish behind Bjorgen,
but she did not do that. "

I didn't see any of the race, but noticed that Becky had a very
small gap after the classic half. Was Steira actually told
to stay back and not even draft? I was assuming that the
strategy was just to 'suck wheel', so to speak, and refuse to
lead, which would either slow things down for Bjorgen and
others to catch up, or else hopefully allow Steira to save
energy and win the sprint. Either way it seems to make sense,
but not if Steira was too far back for the whole second leg to
get any draft advantage.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that sort of team tactic,
and certainly was hoping to see Becky win and Bjorgen back
in 8th or lower. I think she was after the classic leg, but fought
back and got that 4th place, so good for her. She almost made
my "Scott 1st, Bjorgen 3rd prediction" come out right!

Best, Peter



22 Mar 2006 00:52:55
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "ellis" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
> news:LeHTf.20133$4%[email protected]
>
> >
> > Well, that makes sense from Norwegian team's point of view. If the
coach
> > had told Steira outright during a leg of the race, Don't win the race,
> > that
> > is outrageous, but it doesn't sound like that is the case. Steira came
in
> > just 1.80sec behind Scott, so it does look like Steira gave it her best
at
> > the finish line.
>
> When Steira was told to slow down, it was the same as to tell her not to
> win, because she would be second in every finish against Scott.
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>
>
>

Well, which one is it? You said they told to her win if she could, but not
help Scott by pulling ahead of her and drafting her. It's hard to judge
what really happened without having the newspaper copy. And unfortunately I
don't speak Norwegian even if I had it. Whatever the case, I really like
Steira and feel bad for her that she is always coming in at 4th and missing
the podium (except for that one WC win in Pregelato Italy before the
Olympics, and 2nd in this race). She's young and got some real talent. If
she had a real chance to win this race, and logically not damage Bjorgen's
chance of overall World Cup (math tells that was not the case), then I
really can't believe the Norwegian national team coaches stopped her from
winning. I'd really like to know what the newspaper article actually said,
and what the context of "slow down the pace" was. Was it "slow down so you
don't overtake Scott and help her by drafting her" or "slow down and forget
about winning the race to help Bjorgen." The latter doesn't make any sense.




22 Mar 2006 01:11:13
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "ellis" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
> news:LeHTf.20133$4%[email protected]
>
> >
> > Well, that makes sense from Norwegian team's point of view. If the
coach
> > had told Steira outright during a leg of the race, Don't win the race,
> > that
> > is outrageous, but it doesn't sound like that is the case. Steira came
in
> > just 1.80sec behind Scott, so it does look like Steira gave it her best
at
> > the finish line.
>
> When Steira was told to slow down, it was the same as to tell her not to
> win, because she would be second in every finish against Scott.
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>
>
>

This is what I found on:
http://www.skiracing.com/news/news_display.php/3707/NORDIC

From this article it sounds like Steira gave all she got. I just can't
believe a coach would tell her to back off on the last lap.


" Scott overtook Bjoergen midway through the first half of the 15-kilometer
race then held off a determined Steira Stoermer over the last three
kilometers. Steira Stoermer passed Scott on the last lap, but Scott made up
ground on the final downhill and came into the stadium neck and neck with
the Norwegian.

''I knew if I stayed close to Kristin that I would have a good chance,''
Scott said. ''We went into the stadium very close and fortunately I had
enough left for a final sprint.'' "




22 Mar 2006 17:37:18
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

ellis wrote:
> "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>>
>> "ellis" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
>> news:LeHTf.20133$4%[email protected]
>>
>>>
>>> Well, that makes sense from Norwegian team's point of view. If the
>>> coach had told Steira outright during a leg of the race, Don't win
>>> the race, that
>>> is outrageous, but it doesn't sound like that is the case. Steira
>>> came in just 1.80sec behind Scott, so it does look like Steira gave
>>> it her best at the finish line.
>>
>> When Steira was told to slow down, it was the same as to tell her
>> not to win, because she would be second in every finish against
>> Scott.
>>
>
> This is what I found on:
> http://www.skiracing.com/news/news_display.php/3707/NORDIC
>
> From this article it sounds like Steira gave all she got. I just
> can't believe a coach would tell her to back off on the last lap.

Not on the last; it was earier when Steira was the front runner just after
they changed skis.


--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




22 Mar 2006 17:45:42
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

ellis wrote:

>
> Well, which one is it? You said they told to her win if she could,
> but not help Scott by pulling ahead of her and drafting her.

No, I wrote that they told her to slow down; don't know the exactly words.

> It's
> hard to judge what really happened without having the newspaper copy.
> And unfortunately I don't speak Norwegian even if I had it. Whatever
> the case, I really like Steira and feel bad for her that she is
> always coming in at 4th and missing the podium (except for that one
> WC win in Pregelato Italy before the Olympics, and 2nd in this race).
> She's young and got some real talent. If she had a real chance to
> win this race, and logically not damage Bjorgen's chance of overall
> World Cup (math tells that was not the case), then I really can't
> believe the Norwegian national team coaches stopped her from winning.

We don't know if the could have won the race. If she could, she had not
damaged Bjørgens chances to win, on the contrary. And it does not count if
she had damaged her chances. I do not believe that Bjørgen like to win by
knowing that her team mate cheated for her by not doing her best. In other
sports, eg. boxing, boxers are punished if they take a dive. It shouild be
like that in skiing too.

> I'd really like to know what the newspaper article actually said, and
> what the context of "slow down the pace" was. Was it "slow down so
> you don't overtake Scott and help her by drafting her" or "slow down
> and forget about winning the race to help Bjorgen." The latter
> doesn't make any sense.

The latter is the outcome of what she was told, even if she at the end was
told to try to win. But then it was to late because an eventually tired
Scott would have had time to recover.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




22 Mar 2006 17:54:59
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Peter H. wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
> "I don't understand the strategy at all. For Scott to have
> won the WC she would have had to win the race
> and Bjorgen would have had to finish worse than 8th.
> If Steira had won, she would have taken 20 points away
> from Scott meaning all Bjorgen had to do was finish
> in the top 20 skiers to retain the WC. The
> only other way Steira could have had any effect
> on the final results would have been to finish behind Bjorgen,
> but she did not do that. "
>
> I didn't see any of the race, but noticed that Becky had a very
> small gap after the classic half. Was Steira actually told
> to stay back and not even draft? I was assuming that the
> strategy was just to 'suck wheel', so to speak, and refuse to
> lead, which would either slow things down for Bjorgen and
> others to catch up, or else hopefully allow Steira to save
> energy and win the sprint. Either way it seems to make sense,
> but not if Steira was too far back for the whole second leg to
> get any draft advantage.
>
> I don't think there's anything wrong with that sort of team tactic,
> and certainly was hoping to see Becky win and Bjorgen back
> in 8th or lower. I think she was after the classic leg, but fought
> back and got that 4th place, so good for her. She almost made
> my "Scott 1st, Bjorgen 3rd prediction" come out right!

Steira went ahead in the lead just after the classic and Scott and Steira
pulled away from Bjørgen, Steira looking very eager, and then she was
stopped by her trainer.

That kind of team tactic will destroy the sport, I think, not letting the
best even try to win. "May the best person win". Allowed tactic is to be in
front and work together to keep others behind. It is in my opinion bad
sportmanship not even try to win or try to stop others from winning.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




22 Mar 2006 23:43:29
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Steira forced to stop.

In some sports there is a rule that if you don't TRY to finish at your best
possible, you're disqualified for bad sportsmanship. Some time ago there
were big riots around that in Formula 1, I seem to remember.




22 Mar 2006 23:27:53
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> ellis wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, which one is it? You said they told to her win if she could,
> > but not help Scott by pulling ahead of her and drafting her.
>
> No, I wrote that they told her to slow down; don't know the exactly words.
>
> > It's
> > hard to judge what really happened without having the newspaper copy.
> > And unfortunately I don't speak Norwegian even if I had it. Whatever
> > the case, I really like Steira and feel bad for her that she is
> > always coming in at 4th and missing the podium (except for that one
> > WC win in Pregelato Italy before the Olympics, and 2nd in this race).
> > She's young and got some real talent. If she had a real chance to
> > win this race, and logically not damage Bjorgen's chance of overall
> > World Cup (math tells that was not the case), then I really can't
> > believe the Norwegian national team coaches stopped her from winning.
>
> We don't know if the could have won the race. If she could, she had not
> damaged Bjørgens chances to win, on the contrary. And it does not count if
> she had damaged her chances. I do not believe that Bjørgen like to win by
> knowing that her team mate cheated for her by not doing her best. In other
> sports, eg. boxing, boxers are punished if they take a dive. It shouild be
> like that in skiing too.
>
> > I'd really like to know what the newspaper article actually said, and
> > what the context of "slow down the pace" was. Was it "slow down so
> > you don't overtake Scott and help her by drafting her" or "slow down
> > and forget about winning the race to help Bjorgen." The latter
> > doesn't make any sense.
>
> The latter is the outcome of what she was told, even if she at the end was
> told to try to win. But then it was to late because an eventually tired
> Scott would have had time to recover.
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>
>

Well, we don't know that. Maybe the coach told her to slow down and draft
behind Scott so Steira won't burn herself out going out in front and leading
the lead group when she had another 7.5k to go. Was she way out of in front
of Scott and pulling away, or was she maybe five seconds in front of Scott?
I haven't seen the race yet, so I cannot say, but there is no evidence to
suggest that coach told Steira slow down for the purpose of forgoing a win.
Bjorgen's overall WC doesn't even figure into this.

BTW, what happened to Samdal? He's not the head coach anymore?




22 Mar 2006 20:34:34
Gene Goldenfeld
Re: Steira forced to stop.

I think Scott was 16 points back. Without seeing the video I don't
know. I've been imagining that a call to hold back is so to not
blow up the race at a point where Bjoergen might suffer too much
relative to others.

Gene

"Scott Elliot" <[email protected] > wrote:

> I don't understand the strategy at all. For Scott to have won the WC
> she would have had to win the race and Bjorgen would have had to
> finish worse than 8th.
>=20
> If Steira had won, she would have taken 20 points away from Scott
> meaning all Bjorgen had to do was finish in the top 20 skiers to
> retain the WC. The only other way Steira could have had any effect
> on the final results would have been to finish behind Bjorgen, but
> she did not do that.
>=20
> This is the points schedule:
>=20
> 4.1.1 Women and men for individual distances:
>=20
> 1st place =3D 100 points 16th place =3D 15 points
>=20
> 2nd place =3D 80 points 17th place =3D 14 points
>=20
> 3rd place =3D 60 points 18th place =3D 13 points
>=20
> 4th place =3D 50 points 19th place =3D 12 points
>=20
> 5th place =3D 45 points 20th place =3D 11 points
>=20
> 6th place =3D 40 points 21st place =3D 10 points
>=20
> 7th place =3D 36 points 22nd place =3D 9 points
>=20
> 8th place =3D 32 points 23rd place =3D 8 points
>=20
> 9th place =3D 29 points 24th place =3D 7 points
>=20
> 10th place =3D 26 points 25th place =3D 6 points
>=20
> 11th place =3D 24 points 26th place =3D 5 points
>=20
> 12th place =3D 22 points 27th place =3D 4 points
>=20
> 13th place =3D 20 points 28th place =3D 3 points
>=20
> 14th place =3D 18 points 29th place =3D 2 points
>=20
> 15th place =3D 16 points 30th place =3D 1 point
>=20
> Scott finished 20 points behind Bjorgen with Scott's win and
> Bjorgen's 4th place finish.
>=20
> Scott Elliot
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:[email protected]
> > In the newspaper today: The norwegian womens new trainer forced
> > Steira to reduce the speed in order to help Bj=F8rgen win the world
> > cup. In my opinion, it would have been better if she had continued
> > on full speed, giving herself a chance to win and a possibility
> > that Scott would hit the wall.
> >
> > I didn't think that trainers could order the skiers not to win;
> > that is bad sportsmanship and unjust. Do not listen to the trainers
> > in such cases, and chose another trainer.
> >
> > --=20
> > Terje Henriksen
> > Kirkenes
> >=20
>=20
>=20


23 Mar 2006 04:56:16
Alex
Re: Steira forced to stop.

I saw the race on Eurosport.

My memory of it is this: Steira led for a long way, including out of
the transition, when a very tired Bj=F8rgen was dropped by the leading
pair. Steira did not seem to be holding back and increased her lead on
both Bj=F8rgen, and on the pack who were some distance back at the
change. Scott was drafting Steira and looked very fresh.

About half-way through the second leg, Steira did what looked to be the
sensible thing and invited Scott to pull for a bit. I don't know what
her coach said, but the commentators and I had been urging her to do
that for some time. I don't suppose she heard us though ;-) With
about a kilometer to go, Steira then overtook and went for home, which
again looked to be good tactics as Scott is known to be the better
sprinter. It was a close race to the line and Scott just pulled ahead.


If Steira had stayed in the lead, I think it likely that Scott would
have stuck to her until the last sprint and then overtaken. Scott was
showing no signs of problem in keeping up with Steira. =20

Alex



23 Mar 2006 19:52:55
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Alex" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I saw the race on Eurosport.

My memory of it is this: Steira led for a long way, including out of
the transition, when a very tired Bjørgen was dropped by the leading
pair. Steira did not seem to be holding back and increased her lead on
both Bjørgen, and on the pack who were some distance back at the
change. Scott was drafting Steira and looked very fresh.

About half-way through the second leg, Steira did what looked to be the
sensible thing and invited Scott to pull for a bit. I don't know what
her coach said, but the commentators and I had been urging her to do
that for some time. I don't suppose she heard us though ;-) With
about a kilometer to go, Steira then overtook and went for home, which
again looked to be good tactics as Scott is known to be the better
sprinter. It was a close race to the line and Scott just pulled ahead.


If Steira had stayed in the lead, I think it likely that Scott would
have stuck to her until the last sprint and then overtaken. Scott was
showing no signs of problem in keeping up with Steira.

Alex



That makes complete sense to me. I really doubt that the Norwegian coach
sabotaged Steira's chance of winning this race for the sake of
mathematically irrelevant reverence to Bjorgen, who was going to win the
overall WC if she finished no lower than 8th anyway. I think OP is somewhat
mistaken. Or that the newspaper article in Finnmark OP referred to is
inaccurate.




24 Mar 2006 23:39:34
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"ellis" <[email protected] > skrev i melding
news:Z3lUf.29349$4%[email protected]
>
> "Terje Henriksen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> ellis wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Well, which one is it? You said they told to her win if she could,
>> > but not help Scott by pulling ahead of her and drafting her.
>>
>> No, I wrote that they told her to slow down; don't know the exactly
>> words.
>>
>> > It's
>> > hard to judge what really happened without having the newspaper copy.
>> > And unfortunately I don't speak Norwegian even if I had it. Whatever
>> > the case, I really like Steira and feel bad for her that she is
>> > always coming in at 4th and missing the podium (except for that one
>> > WC win in Pregelato Italy before the Olympics, and 2nd in this race).
>> > She's young and got some real talent. If she had a real chance to
>> > win this race, and logically not damage Bjorgen's chance of overall
>> > World Cup (math tells that was not the case), then I really can't
>> > believe the Norwegian national team coaches stopped her from winning.
>>
>> We don't know if the could have won the race. If she could, she had not
>> damaged Bjørgens chances to win, on the contrary. And it does not count
>> if
>> she had damaged her chances. I do not believe that Bjørgen like to win by
>> knowing that her team mate cheated for her by not doing her best. In
>> other
>> sports, eg. boxing, boxers are punished if they take a dive. It shouild
>> be
>> like that in skiing too.
>>
>> > I'd really like to know what the newspaper article actually said, and
>> > what the context of "slow down the pace" was. Was it "slow down so
>> > you don't overtake Scott and help her by drafting her" or "slow down
>> > and forget about winning the race to help Bjorgen." The latter
>> > doesn't make any sense.
>>
>> The latter is the outcome of what she was told, even if she at the end
>> was
>> told to try to win. But then it was to late because an eventually tired
>> Scott would have had time to recover.
>>
>> --
>> Terje Henriksen
>> Kirkenes
>>
>>
>
> Well, we don't know that. Maybe the coach told her to slow down and draft
> behind Scott so Steira won't burn herself out going out in front and
> leading
> the lead group when she had another 7.5k to go.

No.

Was she way out of in front
> of Scott and pulling away, or was she maybe five seconds in front of
> Scott?

She was riht in front of Scott and they were puling away from Bjørgen.

> I haven't seen the race yet, so I cannot say, but there is no evidence to
> suggest that coach told Steira slow down for the purpose of forgoing a
> win.

His intensions are not looked upon here, but if you tell a person to slow
down, in this case Steira, it is obvious that you take away their chance to
win, knowng who the best finisher is.

> Bjorgen's overall WC doesn't even figure into this.

It was the reason why the coach said "stop".
>
> BTW, what happened to Samdal? He's not the head coach anymore?

No, a new one has taken over.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes





24 Mar 2006 23:53:34
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"ellis" <[email protected] > skrev i melding
news:r0DUf.29393$4%[email protected]
>
> "Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> I saw the race on Eurosport.
>
> My memory of it is this: Steira led for a long way, including out of
> the transition, when a very tired Bjørgen was dropped by the leading
> pair. Steira did not seem to be holding back and increased her lead on
> both Bjørgen, and on the pack who were some distance back at the
> change. Scott was drafting Steira and looked very fresh.
>
> About half-way through the second leg, Steira did what looked to be the
> sensible thing and invited Scott to pull for a bit. I don't know what
> her coach said, but the commentators and I had been urging her to do
> that for some time.

Rather stupid, if she was not tired. It was her coach who made her slow down
and she probably did that a long time before she let Scott take the lead.

> I don't suppose she heard us though ;-) With
> about a kilometer to go, Steira then overtook and went for home, which
> again looked to be good tactics as Scott is known to be the better
> sprinter. It was a close race to the line and Scott just pulled ahead.

That's obvously why Steira should have pushed on hard all the time to make
Scott tired. At the end of the race, her trainer told her to go for a
victory, but then it was to late.
>
>
> If Steira had stayed in the lead, I think it likely that Scott would
> have stuck to her until the last sprint and then overtaken. Scott was
> showing no signs of problem in keeping up with Steira.

Of course not since she slowed down.

>
> That makes complete sense to me. I really doubt that the Norwegian coach
> sabotaged Steira's chance of winning this race for the sake of
> mathematically irrelevant reverence to Bjorgen, who was going to win the
> overall WC if she finished no lower than 8th anyway.

That's what he did. He sabotaged her chance to win for nothing.

> I think OP is somewhat
> mistaken. Or that the newspaper article in Finnmark OP referred to is
> inaccurate.

I don't think so. The newspaper article says that the coach got angry when
he saw Steira pulling away. Most people know that fast skiing over a long
period may shake off most of the tail of skiers, while slow skiing for a
long time followed by a hard finish will cause the best finisher to win.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes





25 Mar 2006 13:07:03
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "ellis" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
> news:r0DUf.29393$4%[email protected]
> >
> > "Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> > I saw the race on Eurosport.
> >
> > My memory of it is this: Steira led for a long way, including out of
> > the transition, when a very tired Bjørgen was dropped by the leading
> > pair. Steira did not seem to be holding back and increased her lead on
> > both Bjørgen, and on the pack who were some distance back at the
> > change. Scott was drafting Steira and looked very fresh.
> >
> > About half-way through the second leg, Steira did what looked to be the
> > sensible thing and invited Scott to pull for a bit. I don't know what
> > her coach said, but the commentators and I had been urging her to do
> > that for some time.
>
> Rather stupid, if she was not tired. It was her coach who made her slow
down
> and she probably did that a long time before she let Scott take the lead.
>
> > I don't suppose she heard us though ;-) With
> > about a kilometer to go, Steira then overtook and went for home, which
> > again looked to be good tactics as Scott is known to be the better
> > sprinter. It was a close race to the line and Scott just pulled ahead.
>
> That's obvously why Steira should have pushed on hard all the time to make
> Scott tired. At the end of the race, her trainer told her to go for a
> victory, but then it was to late.
> >
> >
> > If Steira had stayed in the lead, I think it likely that Scott would
> > have stuck to her until the last sprint and then overtaken. Scott was
> > showing no signs of problem in keeping up with Steira.
>
> Of course not since she slowed down.
>
> >
> > That makes complete sense to me. I really doubt that the Norwegian
coach
> > sabotaged Steira's chance of winning this race for the sake of
> > mathematically irrelevant reverence to Bjorgen, who was going to win the
> > overall WC if she finished no lower than 8th anyway.
>
> That's what he did. He sabotaged her chance to win for nothing.
>
> > I think OP is somewhat
> > mistaken. Or that the newspaper article in Finnmark OP referred to is
> > inaccurate.
>
> I don't think so. The newspaper article says that the coach got angry when
> he saw Steira pulling away. Most people know that fast skiing over a long
> period may shake off most of the tail of skiers, while slow skiing for a
> long time followed by a hard finish will cause the best finisher to win.
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>
>
>

I finally saw the race on tape, twice. You are assuming that had Steira not
slowed down right after the ski exchange, she could have dropped Scott. I
don't think so. Scott and Steira were both neck and neck, both looking
strong, and sharing the breakaway move. It was a better tactical move to
ski second behind Scott. They exchanged lead several times. There was never
a moment when I thought Steira could have pulled away from Scott enough to
matter had the coach not interfered. Scott looked very strong and
determined to win, and would have chased Steira down. We'll never know.

I do agree with you that a coach playing chess games with his athletes is
wrong, treating them like means to an end; I just didn't see that in this
race, is all. Maybe Steira's hometown newspaper was looking for a bit of
scapegoat.

Steira will be a force to be reckoned with next season.




25 Mar 2006 14:22:17
Terje Mathisen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

ellis wrote:
> I finally saw the race on tape, twice. You are assuming that had Steira not
> slowed down right after the ski exchange, she could have dropped Scott. I
> don't think so. Scott and Steira were both neck and neck, both looking
> strong, and sharing the breakaway move. It was a better tactical move to
> ski second behind Scott. They exchanged lead several times. There was never
> a moment when I thought Steira could have pulled away from Scott enough to
> matter had the coach not interfered. Scott looked very strong and
> determined to win, and would have chased Steira down. We'll never know.
>
> I do agree with you that a coach playing chess games with his athletes is
> wrong, treating them like means to an end; I just didn't see that in this
> race, is all. Maybe Steira's hometown newspaper was looking for a bit of
> scapegoat.

That's the crux of the matter, Terje H (and Finnmarken newspaper) must
have (quite naturally) watched the race with somewhat tinted glasses.
:-)
>
> Steira will be a force to be reckoned with next season.

Absolutely!

Terje

--
- <[email protected] >
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"


25 Mar 2006 06:45:24
[email protected]
Re: Steira forced to stop.

I wonder what Bj=F8rgen would have thought about winning the world cup
with small safety margins after Steira getting orders to slow down?
Now I'm not a world top athlete, but if I was in Bj=F8rgen's position
before the race I would certainly want to win the world cup more than
anything else, BUT I would hate it if I won because somebody else was
ordered to slow down and I would absolutely hate it if I won the world
cup and the questions from the media afterwards mainly was about
whether I thought that I was strong enough to win it witthout any help
or if I won it only because others were ordered to slow down.

No matter what the coach said, I would have told the others to do their
own race. But that's just me. =3D)

/ Niklas



26 Mar 2006 22:27:18
Nathan Schultz
Re: Steira forced to stop.

While XC is not exactly a team sport, when you race on a team, there is
a team dynamic that comes into play, especially in mass-start races.
You hand each other feeds, talk and take care of each other because
while it is still an individual sport, it helps to have the support of
your teammates on and off the racecourse.

If the overall World Cup was on the line, I think Steira would be
ecstatic to do whatever it took to help Bjoergen win it. Certainly the
team would have discussed different scenarios at the team meeting the
night before. The only possible ways Steira could help Bjoergen are:
1. Beat Beckie and take points away from her as Scott needed quite a
lot of points that could only be found on the top of the podium.
2. If Beckie beats Bjoergen, let Bjoergen finish ahead of Steira.

Given the circumstances of the race, it seems obvious that her coach
probably told her to slow the pace which would be advantageous to both
Steira and Bjoergen. The slowed pace could allow bjoergen to catch up
and it would make Scott take the lead, leaving Steira rested for the
finish. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I'm shocked that there was such a protest about the possibility of team
tactics. If I were Bjoergen's teammate, I would basically do anything
except cut my leg off to help her win. Go slower, go faster, wait at
the finish line for a minute until she went by...

Nathan
www.teamfsx.com
www.natronnordic.com



27 Mar 2006 10:45:09
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Great inside view in the situation, Nathan. And I applaud your team spirit!

Now what if you were on your way to perhaps your first-ever WC win, in of
course the last one of the season, perhaps even in a time where you really
need this result for yourself? And your WC leader teammate is not able to
follow your pace at all, so you can't slow Scott down enough to give your
teammate a chance in the final straight.
Bjoergen (haven't seen it too well) seemingly quite a bit slower, you'd have
to wait a lot to take your place in the standings behind her, might as well
not have started at all.
Unless Bjoergen has very serious WC win material teammates, she seems better
off without them, where they don't take points away from her. You have to
either win, or take your place behind her. "Helping" would be a deserved WC
win, or not taking part at all!
To in part try prevent prevent such situations, and maybe give more racers
chances, some sports leagues let the final race(s) count for double points.
Steira closer in the overall standings might have seen her battle Scott in
that final race, not just for the day win, but her 2nd place in the overall
standings, against her own teammate.

I love the idea of teamwork and helping each other do well, but with my
first-ever WC win in sight, fighting my biggest sports idols, I could really
do without a trainer telling me to slow down, even if I'm really good
friends. Especially if my talent is such that a single worldcup win would
really crown my career, sadly not really being Olympics material (not
referring to Steira).
It would perhaps be different with Bjoergen joining the lead, where she has
the chance to settle it with Scott all by herself, assuming the gap in
standings is really small. Then again, winning myself would give the race to
the others to decide the cup in 2nd place. Too bad for Steira that Bjoergen
wasn't up for that.

I still like the idea where if one member spills points by not trying it's
hardest to favor the other, both get their points pulled.
In an individual sport (it's not a notions league after all?), individuals
to me should perform at their personal best. In such a competitive sport
with even closer standing going into the final race, it could get really
ugly. Then better to settle the worldcup by letting the top-3 have their own
start, and let the others just fight for 4th. Best lady wins.

It's hard, and always will be, but it's fun to think about.

J

"Nathan Schultz" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]
> While XC is not exactly a team sport, when you race on a team, there is
> a team dynamic that comes into play, especially in mass-start races.
> You hand each other feeds, talk and take care of each other because
> while it is still an individual sport, it helps to have the support of
> your teammates on and off the racecourse.
>
> If the overall World Cup was on the line, I think Steira would be
> ecstatic to do whatever it took to help Bjoergen win it. Certainly the
> team would have discussed different scenarios at the team meeting the
> night before. The only possible ways Steira could help Bjoergen are:
> 1. Beat Beckie and take points away from her as Scott needed quite a
> lot of points that could only be found on the top of the podium.
> 2. If Beckie beats Bjoergen, let Bjoergen finish ahead of Steira.
>
> Given the circumstances of the race, it seems obvious that her coach
> probably told her to slow the pace which would be advantageous to both
> Steira and Bjoergen. The slowed pace could allow bjoergen to catch up
> and it would make Scott take the lead, leaving Steira rested for the
> finish. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
>
> I'm shocked that there was such a protest about the possibility of team
> tactics. If I were Bjoergen's teammate, I would basically do anything
> except cut my leg off to help her win. Go slower, go faster, wait at
> the finish line for a minute until she went by...
>
> Nathan
> www.teamfsx.com
> www.natronnordic.com
>




27 Mar 2006 09:48:49
joeconn4
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Nathan-Good analysis of the Bjoergen/Steira teammate relationship.
Regardless of any of our speculation Steira skied a good tactical race
which gave her a decent shot at the win. Could another tactic have
worked better, maybe. But it's not like Steira was head and shoulders a
better racer than Scott on that day and had to sacrifice a win for the
greater team good.

Team tactics in any "individual" sport is always a tough call. A few
years ago I had a related situation on the XC running team I coach. Our
top runner had a good shot to qualify for NCAA's, which would have been
the first time in our 35 year history that we qualified a runner for
NCAA's. Our region had 3 teams going to NCAA's that year, plus the top
2 individuals not on those teams. Teams "L" and "S1" were clearly the
top 2 teams in the region, but behind them it was close between teams
"B" and "S2". Our team was not really a contender for a team spot. Our
strategy was to know by 7k (10k race) whether "B" or "S2" was going to
get the 3rd team spot so that I could tell our top runner who he needed
to go after. Not that he wasn't going all out to begin with but if it
came down to a sprint I'd rather having him concentrate on just beating
guys from one school. As it turned out one of the guys from "B" ran in
the lead pack so clearly was either going with his team or would get 1
of the 2 individual spots. The problem came when at 7k our calculations
showed that teams "B" and "S2" were TIED and there was a runner from
school "C" just moving in front of my top runner. Our top guy ended up
9th with a runner from "B" and a runner from "C" ahead of him, so we
needed team "B" to finish 3rd or my runner wouldn't get the 2nd
individual spot. As I watched the rest of our team kick it in I almost
told them to not outkick anybody from "B" but I just couldn't bring
myself to tell an athlete competing in their last race of the season to
not go all out the whole way. As it turned out "B" ended up just 4
points ahead of "S2" even though a few of my guys outkicked some "B"
runners.

In our post-season team dinner I told the team the story. All 6 of the
other guys who raced that day said if they had known they would not
have outkicked any of the "B" runners, but they also respected my point
that racing (at our level) is about doing the best you can and letting
the points fall where they may.

The post-script is that my runner ended up having a great day at
NCAA's. Our region had never had an individual qualifier finish higher
than 99th, but my runner ended up in the top 70 (5th or 6th from our
region) and was less than 45 seconds out of All-American. It was a
great feeling to know that we did it the right way.



27 Mar 2006 13:30:35
Nathan Schultz
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Good story all around. I think the best solution is to present the
possibilities, what each athlete needs to know about the strategy, what
the options are (beat someone, go slower than someone) and then let
them make the decision. As a coach, it is hard to predict all the
possibilities, but if you are a good coach, you can teach the athletes
the tactics so they can figure it out themselves. Then all you need to
do is give them the info during the race, and they can make the
decision.

One thing I failed to mention in my original post is that perhaps the
coaches told Steira to slow down, but the question is did they ask her
to go behind Bjoergen? More likely they told her to "slow down and
don't do any work for Beckie" - the implication being that she would
have more energy at the finish and then could possibly beat her in a
sprint. Knowing how things go in the media, it seems likely that they
misinterpreted the whole thing and assumed that coaches told Steira
outright to lose the race.

But, I haven't read the article or seen the race, so I am completely
speculating. That is what the internet is about, isn't it?

-Nathan
www.teamfsx.com
www.natronnordic.com



28 Mar 2006 00:16:29
Jan Gerrit Klok
Re: Steira forced to stop.


> One thing I failed to mention in my original post is that perhaps the
> coaches told Steira to slow down, but the question is did they ask her
> to go behind Bjoergen? More likely they told her to "slow down and
> don't do any work for Beckie" - the implication being that she would
> have more energy at the finish and then could possibly beat her in a
> sprint. Knowing how things go in the media, it seems likely that they
> misinterpreted the whole thing and assumed that coaches told Steira
> outright to lose the race.
>
> But, I haven't read the article or seen the race, so I am completely
> speculating. That is what the internet is about, isn't it?
I'll speculate you probably nail it there. Coaches at that level can be
expected to understand point scoring. There best bet in 2 ways was to have
Steira win, and urging her to not do all the work, set too high a pace, is
just a way of giving her the best change to do just that.




27 Mar 2006 17:38:42
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Nathan's analysis sounds logical. Steira would not have been the
first, nor the last, XC skier to draft on her closest competitor and,
if a coach reminded Steira to do that during the race, I doubt that he
would have been the first coach to give that kind of tactical advice
during a race.

I've been under the impression that coaches were on the course to do
more than just say "Go faster!", but maybe I'm wrong.


BTW, if memory serves, I believe Steira already has one World Cup win,
defeating Katerina Neumanova in the '04-'05 season. Taxing my memory
further, I think she dogged Neumanova until they reached a steep climb
and then, sensing she had the stronger legs, took the lead and the win.


I'm pretty new to this site - is it common for a race to elicit such a
remarkably long train of speculation?


Russ



27 Mar 2006 23:33:53
Anders
Re: Steira forced to stop.


[email protected] wrote:


> BTW, if memory serves, I believe Steira already has one World Cup win,
> defeating Katerina Neumanova in the '04-'05 season. Taxing my memory
> further, I think she dogged Neumanova until they reached a steep climb
> and then, sensing she had the stronger legs, took the lead and the win.

Your memory is at least 50% right she won the pursuit in Pragelato last
year, but - if *my* memory is right on the remaining half, it was a
sprint finish on the straight.

Alas: http://www.fasterskier.com/racing1815.html

(Anyway, she obviously struck many observers then as the one to watch.
The FIS site tells us that there is another Steira, a four years
younger Nina, whose results so far aren't all that remarkable, but who
knows...)


> I'm pretty new to this site - is it common for a race to elicit such a
> remarkably long train of speculation?

Absolutely no! And it is especially becuse it is so very rare that
almost everyone who ever engages in such speculation in his mind wanted
to grab the occasion:-)


Anders



31 Mar 2006 20:47:45
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

ellis wrote:

>
> I finally saw the race on tape, twice. You are assuming that had
> Steira not slowed down right after the ski exchange, she could have
> dropped Scott. I don't think so. Scott and Steira were both neck
> and neck, both looking strong, and sharing the breakaway move.

It does't matter what you think; Steira was never given a chance to win in
her own way.

> It
> was a better tactical move to ski second behind Scott. They exchanged
> lead several times. There was never a moment when I thought Steira
> could have pulled away from Scott enough to matter had the coach not
> interfered.

You don't know what went on. The point was Steira and Scott pulling away
from Bjørgen, and an angry trainer told Steira to stop that.

> Scott looked very strong and determined to win, and
> would have chased Steira down. We'll never know.

No, we don't, because the trainer interfered.

>
> I do agree with you that a coach playing chess games with his
> athletes is wrong, treating them like means to an end; I just didn't
> see that in this race, is all. Maybe Steira's hometown newspaper was
> looking for a bit of scapegoat.

I don't know what you are used to, but here we are used to lying reporters.
So we don't think that the newspaper lied, observing the race.
>
> Steira will be a force to be reckoned with next season.

Yes, but a chance to win a world cup race was taken away from her.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




31 Mar 2006 21:03:04
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

[email protected] wrote:
> Nathan's analysis sounds logical. Steira would not have been the
> first, nor the last, XC skier to draft on her closest competitor and,
> if a coach reminded Steira to do that during the race, I doubt that he
> would have been the first coach to give that kind of tactical advice
> during a race.
>
> I've been under the impression that coaches were on the course to do
> more than just say "Go faster!", but maybe I'm wrong.

It is common that the competitor himself set up the tactic for the race, and
follows it according to his shape. I think it is unheard of that a trainer
inerferes in such a way at an adult and experienced level. That kind of
advices are only given at child level, I think.


--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




31 Mar 2006 20:39:26
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Terje Mathisen wrote:
> ellis wrote:
>> I finally saw the race on tape, twice. You are assuming that had
>> Steira not slowed down right after the ski exchange, she could have
>> dropped Scott. I don't think so. Scott and Steira were both neck
>> and neck, both looking strong, and sharing the breakaway move. It
>> was a better tactical move to ski second behind Scott. They
>> exchanged lead several times. There was never a moment when I
>> thought Steira could have pulled away from Scott enough to matter
>> had the coach not interfered. Scott looked very strong and
>> determined to win, and would have chased Steira down. We'll never
>> know. I do agree with you that a coach playing chess games with his
>> athletes is wrong, treating them like means to an end; I just didn't
>> see that in this race, is all. Maybe Steira's hometown newspaper
>> was looking for a bit of scapegoat.
>
> That's the crux of the matter, Terje H (and Finnmarken newspaper) must
> have (quite naturally) watched the race with somewhat tinted glasses.
> :-)

Not at all; even the TV commentators heard that Steira at the end of the
race were told to go for a victory.


--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




03 Apr 2006 00:01:44
Terje Henriksen
Re: Steira forced to stop.

Terje Henriksen wrote:

> I don't know what you are used to, but here we are used to lying
> reporters. So we don't think that the newspaper lied, observing the
> race.

It should of course read: "but here we are not used to lying reporters."


--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes




07 Apr 2006 02:14:32
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Anders" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> > BTW, if memory serves, I believe Steira already has one World Cup win,
> > defeating Katerina Neumanova in the '04-'05 season. Taxing my memory
> > further, I think she dogged Neumanova until they reached a steep climb
> > and then, sensing she had the stronger legs, took the lead and the win.
>
> Your memory is at least 50% right she won the pursuit in Pragelato last
> year, but - if *my* memory is right on the remaining half, it was a
> sprint finish on the straight.
>
> Alas: http://www.fasterskier.com/racing1815.html
>
> (Anyway, she obviously struck many observers then as the one to watch.
> The FIS site tells us that there is another Steira, a four years
> younger Nina, whose results so far aren't all that remarkable, but who
> knows...)
>
>
> > I'm pretty new to this site - is it common for a race to elicit such a
> > remarkably long train of speculation?
>
> Absolutely no! And it is especially becuse it is so very rare that
> almost everyone who ever engages in such speculation in his mind wanted
> to grab the occasion:-)
>
>
> Anders
>

The race that impressed me more was a team relay in Val DiFiemme before the
Olympics. For Norwegians, it was Skofterud - Bjorgen - Stemland - Steira.
Skofterud was the weak link and after the first exchange, Norway was down to
seventh. Bjorgen actually lost 10-20 secs on the second leg, but Norway was
still at 7th. Stemland moved it up to 6th by the third and final exchange.
Steira, as their anchor leg, hauled ass to pass Claudia Kunzel (GER), Brita
Nodgren (SWE), (Vina?) FRA and Steira came in at third for Norway.
Impressive.





07 Apr 2006 05:46:09
ellis
Re: Steira forced to stop.


"Terje Henriksen" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Terje Henriksen wrote:
>
> > I don't know what you are used to, but here we are used to lying
> > reporters. So we don't think that the newspaper lied, observing the
> > race.
>
> It should of course read: "but here we are not used to lying reporters."
>
>
> --
> Terje Henriksen
> Kirkenes
>
>

It's not about lying, but a reporter giving a subjective interpretation of
an event. I also read that Norwegian papers were pretty harsh on their
nordic skiers after the Olympics, so they are not above subjective and
personal jabbing or two. But I'll take your word for it that the trainer
told Steira to slow down. Steira is an elite skier in her own right, so I
am just surprised that she was treated like this. I suppose after the
disappointing Torino Olympics, Norwegian national team really wanted an
overall Worldcup victory. The problem is Bjorgen would have won it without
any help from either the trainer or Steira.