09 Jul 2006 20:46:38
Question re: BCD, regulator, weights



I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.

The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?

I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
"dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
octopus?

Any advice will be appreciated.

Sy

--
Please post and reply to [email protected]


09 Jul 2006 20:21:08
Dennis (Icarus)
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
>
>
> I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
> near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
>
> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
> location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?
>
> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
> into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
> "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
> octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
> octopus?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.

Do a google groups advanced search on "air2" in the groups rec.scuba.*

Dennis




09 Jul 2006 21:55:06
Dan Bracuk
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

<[email protected] > pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:

:The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
:with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
:though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
:location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?

You don't need weighted bags with weight integrated BCs. You just use
normal weights. Most dive ops that cater to tourists will have these
available at no extra charge.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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10 Jul 2006 09:15:38
Popeye
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights



<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
>
>
> I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
> near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
>
> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
> location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?

I found that hard weights fit in my BCD just as well, if you have one
single weight.

Most places, in my experience, do -not- have soft weight, they aren't very
durable.

> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
> into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
> "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
> octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
> octopus?

First off, any "dangling" octopus is a sign of poor skillset- it should be
secured.

Secondly, if you're talking about a "Mares HUB", have yourself slapped
until the notion passes.

As far as a downside, an "integrated octo", commonly called an "Air II"
(although that -is- a particular brand), requires different training and
tactics to employ.

I.e., how easily can you breath it, and use it to control your depth, in a
panicked diver/rescue situation?

Because you'll be breathing it during air sharing, not the other guy.

It's too short to pass away, and you -must not- give him control of your
power inflator.

They do come with 2 different sizes of fittings, but adapters are
available, and, in a worst case scenario, one would have to switch a low
pressure hose.

But if you own and travel with both BCD and regs, it's not an issue.

It's something that brooks lively argument here, many of us having used
and discarded them, you might try the archives.

I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.

That's after 600+ dives with a long hose, and bungied secondary.



--
Popeye
"Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com





10 Jul 2006 10:51:21
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

"Popeye" wrote

> Most places, in my experience, do -not- have soft weight, they aren't very
> durable.

And they are more expensive.

> Secondly, if you're talking about a "Mares HUB", have yourself slapped
> until the notion passes.

I certainly agree with that.

> They do come with 2 different sizes of fittings, but adapters are
> available, and, in a worst case scenario, one would have to switch a low
> pressure hose.
>
> But if you own and travel with both BCD and regs, it's not an issue.

Actually, it is an issue, just not a big one. Some places that have a
supply of standard inflator hoses, do not have an adequate supply of
proprietary ones for inflator/alternate units. The solution is easy, carry
a spare.

Lee




10 Jul 2006 07:59:53
Star
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


Popeye wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
> >
> >
> > I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
> > near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
> >
> > The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
> > with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
> > though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
> > location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?
>
> I found that hard weights fit in my BCD just as well, if you have one
> single weight.
>
> Most places, in my experience, do -not- have soft weight, they aren't very
> durable.
>
> > I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
> > into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
> > "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
> > you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
> > octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
> > octopus?
>
> First off, any "dangling" octopus is a sign of poor skillset- it should be
> secured.
>
> Secondly, if you're talking about a "Mares HUB", have yourself slapped
> until the notion passes.
>
> As far as a downside, an "integrated octo", commonly called an "Air II"
> (although that -is- a particular brand), requires different training and
> tactics to employ.
>
> I.e., how easily can you breath it, and use it to control your depth, in a
> panicked diver/rescue situation?
>
> Because you'll be breathing it during air sharing, not the other guy.
>
> It's too short to pass away, and you -must not- give him control of your
> power inflator.
>
> They do come with 2 different sizes of fittings, but adapters are
> available, and, in a worst case scenario, one would have to switch a low
> pressure hose.
>
> But if you own and travel with both BCD and regs, it's not an issue.
>
> It's something that brooks lively argument here, many of us having used
> and discarded them, you might try the archives.
>
> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>
> That's after 600+ dives with a long hose, and bungied secondary.
>
>
>
> --
> Popeye
> "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
> going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
>
> www.finalprotectivefire.com



10 Jul 2006 08:02:34
Star
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


Popeye wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
> >
> >
> > I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
> > near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
> >
> > The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
> > with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
> > though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
> > location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?
>
> I found that hard weights fit in my BCD just as well, if you have one
> single weight.
>
> Most places, in my experience, do -not- have soft weight, they aren't very
> durable.
>
> > I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
> > into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
> > "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
> > you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
> > octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
> > octopus?
>
> First off, any "dangling" octopus is a sign of poor skillset- it should be
> secured.
>
> Secondly, if you're talking about a "Mares HUB", have yourself slapped
> until the notion passes.
>
> As far as a downside, an "integrated octo", commonly called an "Air II"
> (although that -is- a particular brand), requires different training and
> tactics to employ.
>
> I.e., how easily can you breath it, and use it to control your depth, in a
> panicked diver/rescue situation?
>
> Because you'll be breathing it during air sharing, not the other guy.
>
> It's too short to pass away, and you -must not- give him control of your
> power inflator.

Yes, yes yes. What Pops said. And get a BP/wing; give up the BC idea.


>
> They do come with 2 different sizes of fittings, but adapters are
> available, and, in a worst case scenario, one would have to switch a low
> pressure hose.
>
> But if you own and travel with both BCD and regs, it's not an issue.
>
> It's something that brooks lively argument here, many of us having used
> and discarded them, you might try the archives.
>
> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.

You are WHAT???? Do tell your reasoning here!

*



10 Jul 2006 11:50:14
Popeye
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights



"Star" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

>> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>
> You are WHAT???? Do tell your reasoning here!

I set out to assemble the most minimal rig possible.

With the retrospect of 400 dives in a tech BC and 600 dives in a BP/W, in
all conditions, I decided that on some (or -most-) dives, I don't need a
full secondary necklaced regulator.

The truest essence of DIR -or- Hogarthianism, is true minimalism.

Let's not take what we don't need... Right?

I've used a lift bag scores of times on a warm water drift dive- I kept
it.

I've used the octo, in this situation, once, in 1000 dives.

So we can minimalize that.

Since 99% of the divers in the water only have a 30-33" reg to donate, as
will I, and since we're going to call the dive on the spot, I just need a
reg, for myself, to get me up.

No problem. :-)

The sport rig I have mostly done now has two hoses, no SPG.

Anything else is arguably unnecessary for a warm water, hi-viz dive.

Other dives (tech or training) would have other requirements.

Off the top of my head, the only other two times I had to donate a reg was
with (and to) studii.



--
Popeye
"Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com




10 Jul 2006 16:26:11
mike gray
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

[email protected] wrote:
>
> I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
> near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
>
> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
> location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?

I find weight pockets - and the BCs that take them - bulky,
draggy, and complicated, but others love them. Suggest you try
both before you make an expensive commitment.
>
> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
> into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
> "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
> octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
> octopus?

An octo does not have to dangle, in fact it should not. It
should be clipped off in the front or at the right waist (as
should the console/spg).

As a practical matter, you'll never use the octo except to take
a rescue or dm course, and the integrated ones do make for a
cleaner rig. They can be retrofitted to any rig, as they are in
series with the low pressure inflator hose.

m



10 Jul 2006 09:36:28
bullshark
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

[email protected] wrote:
> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal

They aren't. Some are good. BOB is SP KnightHawk. The *new* DiveRites
are also good. DiveRite used to have horrible I-weight. The New system
is as good as or better than the SP.

> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression

Weight belts don't cost much to dump. They don't have expensive parts
that need replacement. They don't make your gear heavy while you change
tanks.

> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving

No. All good WI systems accomodate hard weights.

Avoid anything that has a ripcord like it's coughing blood and bleeding
from the eyes.

| > I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus
integrated

BOB is Atomic SSI, with SP Air II (Now in 3rd/4th generation). The Tusa
Duo Air is a licensed clone of the the SP, but no the latest
generation, but very reliable.

> Is there any downside to this type of octo and do

Minor. The detractors will all cite some stuff about difficulty
managing buoyancy on ascent. They might lack experience with the
product or have far too much experience with OOA .

They could just abbreviate their position and say "I don't like them".

First, a correctly weighted warm water diver can dump all air at the
bottom before ascent begins and fin to the surface. This will maximize
control over all-important ascent speed.

Second, virtually all good BCs have shoulder dumps. You don't need to
use your inflator hose to dump air.

Last, but not least, this is technically a rescue situation. If any
buoyancy needs managing, you manage your victims inflator, and your BC
is empty. Two people managing buoyancy on ascent (one or both of which
is panicked) is a recipe for trouble. Dump yours, manage theirs. Keep
their inflator button out of their hands. It looks just like an "Up"
button to them and they're out of air.

Another minor issue is that they generally use a non-std QDC. Because
they breathe, they want larger diameter air passages, thus the larger
QDC. It's not that big a deal really. It turns out that even the small
bores are not standard, and pretty much everybody has adapters.

> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated

Generally no. The SSI will fit anything. The SP AirII and Tusa will fit
almost anything.

The original SP AirII (20+ years ago) was finicky, hard to breathe,
hard to tune, and had a reputation (deserved but caused by bad tuning))
for free-flowing. All of that left a bad impression for some. Japanese
cars used to be the same way. Progress, you know?

Modern designs like the SSI are as easy to breathe as a primary, and
are more rugged and reliable than classic 2nd stage designs. They
simplify your rig and eliminate an LP Hose along with a dangler. Less
maintenance, less fuss *and* your inflator gets serviced when your
regulator does.

Some people like it, some people don't. If you like it, there's no
reason not to get one. It's not for technical/overhead use and its
probably not a great idea for those that dive in frigid water. The
technical issue is irrelevant to a recreational diver. Should you ever
acquire technical training, you will get a dedicated special purpose
rig for it. Buying all your stuff today as though you'll be one
tomorrow, bestows you with the most dreaded of monickers:

"Techie-wannabe".

bullshark



10 Jul 2006 14:56:43
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Popeye wrote

> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.

You're probably not going to like the results. I used to be a big fan of
inflator/alternates. I used the old style SeaQuest Air Source. I liked it
a lot better than the Air II. The problem using it with my current
configuration is that, to be comfortable in use, the inflator hose has to be
a bit longer than normal so that you can turn your head enough to see an OOA
diver that may be on your right. There's a problem keeping even the
standard length hose under control, let alone a longer one. I found no
practical way to secure it. The necklaced alternate was the best choice I
could come up with for my diving. I gave away the combination unit. YMMV.

If you really want to have a minimal configuration, why not expect to buddy
breathe and eliminate the alternte entirely, just like I did back in the
days before I had an alternate, you know, way back in 1991.

> The sport rig I have mostly done now has two hoses, no SPG.

To do this safely, I think you need a regulator with an unbalanced first
stage. That way, you'll have roughly 500 psi in reserve when the regulator
gets noticably harder to breathe. That's also how I handled things way back
in 1991.

Lee




10 Jul 2006 15:08:41
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

bullshark wrote

> Last, but not least, this is technically a rescue situation. If any
> buoyancy needs managing, you manage your victims inflator, and your BC
> is empty. Two people managing buoyancy on ascent (one or both of which
> is panicked) is a recipe for trouble. Dump yours, manage theirs. Keep
> their inflator button out of their hands. It looks just like an "Up"
> button to them and they're out of air.

As you note, they're out of air. It's a bit difficult to add gas to their
BCD if necessary. In such a situation, manual inflation or their BCD would
not be my first choice.

In truth, you had it right before this point. Those that think it makes it
hard to manage inflation probably do not have enough experience with the
product to do it easily. When I had one, I did not find it to be a problem.

The only problem I found with the combination units came with my change to a
plate, wing and harness configuration. A slightly longer than standard
inflator hose, the one that's part of the BCD, is not easily controlled when
wearing a harness like mine. Someone who can overcome this problem might
well find they like the unit as much as other options. That was not the
case for me. I prefer the necklaced, shorter hose alternate option. YMMV.

> Some people like it, some people don't. If you like it, there's no
> reason not to get one.

Yep.

> It's not for technical/overhead use . . .

Why not? If it can be secured adequately, it's just as easy to locate and
use as the one I currently wear under my chin. Either way, I'm going to use
the alternate and hand off the primary. I'm not sure I see a safety
difference.

Lee




10 Jul 2006 15:10:08
Dillon Pyron
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Thus spake "Popeye" <[email protected] > :

>
>
>"Star" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>>> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>>
>> You are WHAT???? Do tell your reasoning here!
>
> I set out to assemble the most minimal rig possible.
>
> With the retrospect of 400 dives in a tech BC and 600 dives in a BP/W, in
>all conditions, I decided that on some (or -most-) dives, I don't need a
>full secondary necklaced regulator.
>
> The truest essence of DIR -or- Hogarthianism, is true minimalism.
>
> Let's not take what we don't need... Right?
>
> I've used a lift bag scores of times on a warm water drift dive- I kept
>it.
>
> I've used the octo, in this situation, once, in 1000 dives.
>
> So we can minimalize that.
>
> Since 99% of the divers in the water only have a 30-33" reg to donate, as
>will I, and since we're going to call the dive on the spot, I just need a
>reg, for myself, to get me up.

I used to have a 32" octo hose. After doing an OOA ascent with Carol
I bought a 6 foot hose. A short hose basically tries to twist the reg
out of the recipeiint's mouth.

>
> No problem. :-)
>
> The sport rig I have mostly done now has two hoses, no SPG.
>
> Anything else is arguably unnecessary for a warm water, hi-viz dive.
>
> Other dives (tech or training) would have other requirements.
>
> Off the top of my head, the only other two times I had to donate a reg was
>with (and to) studii.
--
dillon

JAFO


10 Jul 2006 17:32:57
Dan Bracuk
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

"bullshark" <[email protected] > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:First, a correctly weighted warm water diver can dump all air at the
:bottom before ascent begins and fin to the surface. This will maximize
:control over all-important ascent speed.

Way too much work for those of us who dive for fun. Plus, being
neutral gives me more control than being negative.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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10 Jul 2006 15:13:35
bullshark
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "bullshark" <[email protected]> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :First, a correctly weighted warm water diver can dump all air at the
> :bottom before ascent begins and fin to the surface. This will maximize
> :control over all-important ascent speed.
>
> Way too much work for those of us who dive for fun.
> Plus, being
> neutral gives me more control than being negative.

What a Canadian response.

Gee, ascending neutral. Why the fuck didn't I think of that?
How do you do that? Do you have to dump air as you ascend?
How do you do that if your inflator/regulator is in your mouth?

Maybe you didn't read the post or I may not have been clear enough.
I was referring to managing ascent when there is a diver sharing air
with you.

bullshark



10 Jul 2006 15:33:47
bullshark
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


Lee Bell wrote:
> bullshark wrote
>
> > Last, but not least, this is technically a rescue situation. If any
> > buoyancy needs managing, you manage your victims inflator, and your BC
> > is empty. Two people managing buoyancy on ascent (one or both of which
> > is panicked) is a recipe for trouble. Dump yours, manage theirs. Keep
> > their inflator button out of their hands. It looks just like an "Up"
> > button to them and they're out of air.
>
> As you note, they're out of air. It's a bit difficult to add gas to their
> BCD if necessary. In such a situation, manual inflation or their BCD would
> not be my first choice.

See folks? Here is a diver who is not even out of air, or panicked, and
he thinks the inflator button is a fucking elevator. Bad Lee. Bad Lee.
Stop that.

As ambient declines, a reserve supply appears in even the most empty
tank.

bullshark



10 Jul 2006 21:48:00
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

bullshark wrote

>> > Last, but not least, this is technically a rescue situation. If any
>> > buoyancy needs managing, you manage your victims inflator, and your BC
>> > is empty. Two people managing buoyancy on ascent (one or both of which
>> > is panicked) is a recipe for trouble. Dump yours, manage theirs. Keep
>> > their inflator button out of their hands. It looks just like an "Up"
>> > button to them and they're out of air.

>> As you note, they're out of air. It's a bit difficult to add gas to
>> their
>> BCD if necessary. In such a situation, manual inflation or their BCD
>> would
>> not be my first choice.

> See folks? Here is a diver who is not even out of air, or panicked, and
> he thinks the inflator button is a fucking elevator. Bad Lee. Bad Lee.
> Stop that.

If that were true, it would, indeed be bad. That's not what I said. Most
divers who dump the gas from their BCD become negative. Going negative
myself and having no gas to put into the OOA diver's BCD still would not be
my first choice.

> As ambient declines, a reserve supply appears in even the most empty
> tank.

Yep, 14.7 psi for every 33 feet. That's better than nothing if you're
sucking on a nearly empty tank. Been there and done that. It's not much
for buoyancy control.

Regardless, I still agree that a combination unit is quite workable even in
an emergency situation. I believe it enough to have used one for about 8
years.

Lee




10 Jul 2006 21:48:39
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

"Dan Bracuk" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "bullshark" <[email protected]> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :First, a correctly weighted warm water diver can dump all air at the
> :bottom before ascent begins and fin to the surface. This will maximize
> :control over all-important ascent speed.
>
> Way too much work for those of us who dive for fun. Plus, being
> neutral gives me more control than being negative.

Depends on how negative you are.

Lee




10 Jul 2006 21:52:15
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

bullshark wrote

> Gee, ascending neutral. Why the fuck didn't I think of that?
> How do you do that? Do you have to dump air as you ascend?
> How do you do that if your inflator/regulator is in your mouth?

Push the button? When vertical, as I would be when assisting an OOA diver
to the surface, my mouth is above my wing.

Failing that, there's always the shoulder dump which is pretty easy to pull
even with the regulator in your mouth.

I don't know why you're getting excited about his response. I'm quite sure
you'd find a way to ascend neutral or near neutral in the situation you
described. It's probably not so easy for those that dive with a lot of
weight, but it's pretty simple for those of us that stick to warm water.

Lee




10 Jul 2006 23:38:34
Popeye
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights



"Lee Bell" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Popeye wrote
>
>> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>
> You're probably not going to like the results. I used to be a big fan of
> inflator/alternates. I used the old style SeaQuest Air Source. I liked
> it a lot better than the Air II. The problem using it with my current
> configuration is that, to be comfortable in use, the inflator hose has to
> be a bit longer than normal so that you can turn your head enough to see
> an OOA diver that may be on your right. There's a problem keeping even
> the standard length hose under control, let alone a longer one. I found
> no practical way to secure it. The necklaced alternate was the best
> choice I could come up with for my diving. I gave away the combination
> unit. YMMV.

I kept the uber-short Halcyon hose, and bungied it down tight to my
shoulder strap, like my LPI has always been..

If I ever use the thing, it'll be for a 90 ft ascent to the surface, with
the other diver in my right hand.

> If you really want to have a minimal configuration, why not expect to
> buddy breathe and eliminate the alternte entirely, just like I did back in
> the days before I had an alternate, you know, way back in 1991.

I would consider it if I had the same buddy all the time.

Limey Dave, IIRC, has no octo of any kind, and it didn't bother me, as his
buddy, in the slightest.

>> The sport rig I have mostly done now has two hoses, no SPG.
>
> To do this safely, I think you need a regulator with an unbalanced first
> stage. That way, you'll have roughly 500 psi in reserve when the
> regulator gets noticably harder to breathe. That's also how I handled
> things way back in 1991.

I was considering a J valve.



--
Popeye
"Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com




10 Jul 2006 23:14:06
Danlw
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


"Popeye" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
>>
>>
>> I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
>> near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
>>
>> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
>> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
>> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
>> location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?
>
> I found that hard weights fit in my BCD just as well, if you have one
> single weight.
>
> Most places, in my experience, do -not- have soft weight, they aren't very
> durable.
>
>> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
>> into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
>> "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
>> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
>> octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
>> octopus?
>
> First off, any "dangling" octopus is a sign of poor skillset- it should
> be
> secured.
>
> Secondly, if you're talking about a "Mares HUB", have yourself slapped
> until the notion passes.
>
> As far as a downside, an "integrated octo", commonly called an "Air II"
> (although that -is- a particular brand), requires different training and
> tactics to employ.
>
> I.e., how easily can you breath it, and use it to control your depth, in
> a
> panicked diver/rescue situation?
>
> Because you'll be breathing it during air sharing, not the other guy.
>
> It's too short to pass away, and you -must not- give him control of your
> power inflator.
>
> They do come with 2 different sizes of fittings, but adapters are
> available, and, in a worst case scenario, one would have to switch a low
> pressure hose.
>
> But if you own and travel with both BCD and regs, it's not an issue.
>
> It's something that brooks lively argument here, many of us having used
> and discarded them, you might try the archives.
>
> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>
> That's after 600+ dives with a long hose, and bungied

A "dangler" seems more of a problem than the "integrated alt air" (and long
hose :) ) that I use. It does cut down one hose, and I carry a spare alt
air plus an extra LP hose.

A decent quality octo will breath "OK" but you really do need
to use it so you KNOW how it responds.

Good diving, Dan




10 Jul 2006 23:25:18
Danlw
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


"Popeye" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]news.supernews.com...
>
>
> "Lee Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Popeye wrote
>>
>>> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>>
>> You're probably not going to like the results. I used to be a big fan of
>> inflator/alternates. I used the old style SeaQuest Air Source. I liked
>> it a lot better than the Air II. The problem using it with my current
>> configuration is that, to be comfortable in use, the inflator hose has to
>> be a bit longer than normal so that you can turn your head enough to see
>> an OOA diver that may be on your right. There's a problem keeping even
>> the standard length hose under control, let alone a longer one. I found
>> no practical way to secure it. The necklaced alternate was the best
>> choice I could come up with for my diving. I gave away the combination
>> unit. YMMV.
>
> I kept the uber-short Halcyon hose, and bungied it down tight to my
> shoulder strap, like my LPI has always been..
>
> If I ever use the thing, it'll be for a 90 ft ascent to the surface, with
> the other diver in my right hand.
>
>> If you really want to have a minimal configuration, why not expect to
>> buddy breathe and eliminate the alternte entirely, just like I did back
>> in the days before I had an alternate, you know, way back in 1991.
>
> I would consider it if I had the same buddy all the time.
>
> Limey Dave, IIRC, has no octo of any kind, and it didn't bother me, as
> his buddy, in the slightest.
>
>>> The sport rig I have mostly done now has two hoses, no SPG.
>>
>> To do this safely, I think you need a regulator with an unbalanced first
>> stage. That way, you'll have roughly 500 psi in reserve when the
>> regulator gets noticably harder to breathe. That's also how I handled
>> things way back in 1991.
>
> I was considering a J valve.
Popeye,
I have one on that old steel 72 in my garage that you saw.
Bit old, but works. The 72 is a bit small though :) Dan

> Popeye
> "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
> going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
>
> www.finalprotectivefire.com
>




11 Jul 2006 09:50:23
Zen Diver
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Star wrote:
> Popeye wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
>>>
>>> I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
>>> near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
>>>
>>> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
>>> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
>>> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
>>> location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?
>> I found that hard weights fit in my BCD just as well, if you have one
>> single weight.
>>
>> Most places, in my experience, do -not- have soft weight, they aren't very
>> durable.
>>
>>> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
>>> into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
>>> "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
>>> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
>>> octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
>>> octopus?
>> First off, any "dangling" octopus is a sign of poor skillset- it should be
>> secured.
>>
>> Secondly, if you're talking about a "Mares HUB", have yourself slapped
>> until the notion passes.
>>
>> As far as a downside, an "integrated octo", commonly called an "Air II"
>> (although that -is- a particular brand), requires different training and
>> tactics to employ.
>>
>> I.e., how easily can you breath it, and use it to control your depth, in a
>> panicked diver/rescue situation?
>>
>> Because you'll be breathing it during air sharing, not the other guy.
>>
>> It's too short to pass away, and you -must not- give him control of your
>> power inflator.
>
> Yes, yes yes. What Pops said. And get a BP/wing; give up the BC idea.
>
>
>> They do come with 2 different sizes of fittings, but adapters are
>> available, and, in a worst case scenario, one would have to switch a low
>> pressure hose.
>>
>> But if you own and travel with both BCD and regs, it's not an issue.
>>
>> It's something that brooks lively argument here, many of us having used
>> and discarded them, you might try the archives.
>>
>> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>
> You are WHAT???? Do tell your reasoning here!
>
> *
>

The only time I can think of where I have seen an AirII as an advantage
was when one of my instructor colleagues used one to demonstrate dumping
air from the BC. It didn't matter whether he had any air in his BC to
dump all he needed to do was raise the inflator hose and push the purge
button. This would release a healthy load of air and students would see
this as air being released from his BC.

jon


11 Jul 2006 05:50:23
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Popeye wrote

> I kept the uber-short Halcyon hose, and bungied it down tight to my
> shoulder strap, like my LPI has always been..
> If I ever use the thing, it'll be for a 90 ft ascent to the surface, with
> the other diver in my right hand.

Using the short hose is the only way I know of to effectively control the
inflator hose using the harness system. I had a couple of problems with
that configuration. One has already been mentioned, the inability to turn
my head to the right, where, as you indicate, the other diver is likely to
be. The other is the increased complexity of getting the second stage out
of the bungie when you need it. That can be more or less of a problem
depending on the design of the second stage/inflator you use. Some are, or
at least were, larger than others.

> Limey Dave, IIRC, has no octo of any kind, and it didn't bother me, as his
> buddy, in the slightest.

If you're right about Dave, you're more observant than I have been. I'm
surprised some operator has not denied him passage, Captain PADI, for
example. That is exactly why I bought my first octo and BCD in 1991. The
local dive boats would not let me aboard without what they considered to be
minimum safe equipment.

>> To do this safely, I think you need a regulator with an unbalanced first
>> stage. That way, you'll have roughly 500 psi in reserve when the
>> regulator gets noticably harder to breathe. That's also how I handled
>> things way back in 1991.

> I was considering a J valve.

Not as minimalist as an unbalanced first stage, but the effect is much the
same.

I could do most of my diving with my pre-1991 configuration. An 80 cubic
foot tank, harness and solid rubber plate and an unbalanced single hose
regulator, but I won't. I like my 100 cubic foot tanks, which I can't
comfortably use to effect without some kind of buoyancy compensation; I like
the multi level, multi dive, flexibility I get with my computer and I like
the reaassurance I get from knowing my dive time, depth and no deco time.

I like the minimalist approach you've chosen and would not hesitate to dive
with you, or anyone else I felt had the knowledge and experience to use such
a configuration safely, but I'm not at all likely to return to something
like that myself.

Lee




11 Jul 2006 06:08:37
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Danlw wrote

> I have one on that old steel 72 in my garage that you saw.
> Bit old, but works. The 72 is a bit small though :) Dan

In the old, pre 80 days, we did dives of "about an hour" on 72s. These
days, with our 80 cubic foot tanks, we are now do dives of "about an hour."

With an 80 cubic foot, 3,000 psi tank (assumes the tank really is 80 cubic
feet), returning to the surface with 500 psi reserve (a common requirement
by dive operators) gives you about 67 cubic feet of gas for the dive, the
same as you get from a 72 at 2650 if you return to the surface with 185 psi.
185 psi, roughly 5 cubic feet of gas, is enough for the average diver (.5
cf/min SAC) to do a 7 minute safety stop at 15 feet. If a safety stop of 7
extra minutes won't get you to the surface safely, you've got dive planning
problems you can't solve with a slightly larger tank.

For the most part, the difference between an 80 and a 72 is the comfort of
the diver operator and his insurance company. They get to impose a larger
safety margin. 8^)

Lee




11 Jul 2006 04:29:18
-hh
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


bullshark wrote:
>
> They aren't. Some are good. BOB is SP KnightHawk. The *new* DiveRites
> are also good. DiveRite used to have horrible I-weight. The New system
> is as good as or better than the SP.

But they still can be pretty bulky. I find that with my Knighthawk is
so, plus its back inflation combined with the mass of my UW Camera held
in front of me is fine on a dive, but on the surface, it rocks me
forward (face down) much more than I like. Next time I'll be diving,
I'll have a new weight pouch on my tank strap to try to move my CG even
further back. Since I'm already not using the weight pouches and its
pockets suck, I'm debating if there's an easy and non-destructive way
to make an insert to convert the weight pouch pockets into regular
pockets.


> Weight belts don't cost much to dump. They don't have expensive parts
> that need replacement. They don't make your gear heavy while you change
> tanks.

And you can also position a few pounds in the small of your back, which
puts them further rearward than the typical integrated BC pocket's
location.


> Last, but not least, this is technically a rescue situation. If any
> buoyancy needs managing, you manage your victims inflator, and your BC
> is empty. Two people managing buoyancy on ascent (one or both of which
> is panicked) is a recipe for trouble. Dump yours, manage theirs. Keep
> their inflator button out of their hands. It looks just like an "Up"
> button to them and they're out of air.

Historically, this is more likely due to too many attempted rescuers
getting themselves to the surface without their victim, where they then
have to live with (and try to explain) how the negatively buoyant
victim "slipped away from them".

By making the victim buoyant, if there's rescuer/victim separation, the
victim floats up due to physics alone. This might result in a bad
rapid ascent and additional health problems, but it is the lesser evil
in comparison to the alternative of sinking and thus being lost to the
depths where death is a virtual certainty.


-hh



11 Jul 2006 22:13:08
Okidiver
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

I've been using one since around 6-700 dives also. Breathes fabulous and
dry down to 145 (needs 2B serviced by the best, if not, it is only
"decent"). Got one of those sea cure mouthpieces for extra security (yup,
hose is a bit short). Yup, primary gets donated (or ripped out of my mouth
by) the panicked, OOA diver with the big eyes. Air2 is real easy to find,
never have to look for it. I ONLY dump air via the pull hose. Nice and
compact, no worries, no regrets.

Oh, it's a bailout reg for a couple of rebreathers also, and them boys play
for keeps.

--
Rapid Rick
"Just Dive, Baby"

"Popeye" <[email protected] > wrote in message
...
> As far as a downside, an "integrated octo", commonly called an "Air II"
> (although that -is- a particular brand), requires different training and
> tactics to employ.
> ...
> Because you'll be breathing it during air sharing, not the other guy.
>
> It's too short to pass away, and you -must not- give him control of your
> power inflator.
> ...
> It's something that brooks lively argument here, many of us having used
> and discarded them, you might try the archives.
>
> I, however, am looking to employ one myself, for convenience.
>
> That's after 600+ dives with a long hose, and bungied secondary.
>
>
>
> --
> Popeye
> "Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
> going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
>
> www.finalprotectivefire.com
>
>
>




12 Jul 2006 00:20:51
Popeye
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


"Okidiver" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I've been using one since around 6-700 dives also. Breathes fabulous and
> dry down to 145 (needs 2B serviced by the best, if not, it is only
> "decent"). Got one of those sea cure mouthpieces for extra security (yup,
> hose is a bit short). Yup, primary gets donated (or ripped out of my
> mouth by) the panicked, OOA diver with the big eyes. Air2 is real easy to
> find, never have to look for it. I ONLY dump air via the pull hose. Nice
> and compact, no worries, no regrets.
>
> Oh, it's a bailout reg for a couple of rebreathers also, and them boys
> play for keeps.


That jives with my research, and how I pictured it.

I took Scubapro training on the rebuild.

The Seacure is a good idea.

I love this place.




18 Jul 2006 10:57:42
D
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

I have both. My BCD is an older type with velcro. Very easy to remove and
put the weights in. Never used soft pouch weights, but I imagine they would
be able to be used. I also have a spare air and not an octopus. Works
extreamly well and would probably never fo back to an octopus wetup (no
desire to do cave or wreck diving). Just make sure that you explain to who
ever your buddy is how the system works in case of an emergency.

Dave
<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
>
>
> I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
> near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
>
> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
> location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?
>
> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
> into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
> "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
> octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
> octopus?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Sy
>
> --
> Please post and reply to [email protected]




18 Jul 2006 15:43:51
Dillon Pyron
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Thus spake "D" <[email protected] > :

>I have both. My BCD is an older type with velcro. Very easy to remove and
>put the weights in. Never used soft pouch weights, but I imagine they would
>be able to be used. I also have a spare air and not an octopus. Works
>extreamly well and would probably never fo back to an octopus wetup (no
>desire to do cave or wreck diving). Just make sure that you explain to who
>ever your buddy is how the system works in case of an emergency.

Can you make an ascent from 60 feet and safely make a 5 minute stop at
15 feet on a Spare Air? Thought not. Either get a pony or put the
octo on. Spare Air doesn't get you much. The Navy uses them for the
helicopter pilots, but that's about the only valid use I see for them.

>
>Dave
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:090720062046385307%[email protected]
>>
>>
>> I need some recommendations for equipment that I hope to buy in the
>> near future for warm water diving. Excuse my newbie terminology.
>>
>> The BCD's with the pockets for weights "appear" to be easier to deal
>> with than weight belts which I find to be a pain. I get the impression
>> though, that you'd have to transport the weights to your diving
>> location or do many places have weighted bags you can use?
>>
>> I am also interested in having the BCD include the octopus integrated
>> into the BCD (on one's left side) instead of the typical right-side
>> "dangling" octopus. Is there any downside to this type of octo and do
>> you need to buy a specific type of BCD to include the integrated
>> octopus or can you retrofit any BCD to become integrated with an
>> octopus?
>>
>> Any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Sy
>>
>> --
>> Please post and reply to [email protected]
>
--
dillon

JAFO


18 Jul 2006 18:44:50
Popeye
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights



"Dillon Pyron" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Thus spake "D" <[email protected]> :
>
>>I have both. My BCD is an older type with velcro. Very easy to remove
>>and
>>put the weights in. Never used soft pouch weights, but I imagine they
>>would
>>be able to be used. I also have a spare air and not an octopus. Works
>>extreamly well and would probably never fo back to an octopus wetup (no
>>desire to do cave or wreck diving). Just make sure that you explain to
>>who
>>ever your buddy is how the system works in case of an emergency.
>
> Can you make an ascent from 60 feet and safely make a 5 minute stop at
> 15 feet on a Spare Air? Thought not. Either get a pony or put the
> octo on. Spare Air doesn't get you much. The Navy uses them for the
> helicopter pilots, but that's about the only valid use I see for them.

I was thinking about getting one for the truck.




19 Jul 2006 01:29:28
mike gray
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Popeye wrote:


>>Can you make an ascent from 60 feet and safely make a 5 minute stop at
>>15 feet on a Spare Air? Thought not. Either get a pony or put the
>>octo on. Spare Air doesn't get you much. The Navy uses them for the
>>helicopter pilots, but that's about the only valid use I see for them.
>
>
> I was thinking about getting one for the truck.

Filled with starting fluid, might make sense. Useless for
topping up tires.



18 Jul 2006 22:30:01
Popeye
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights




"mike gray" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Popeye wrote:
>
>
>>>Can you make an ascent from 60 feet and safely make a 5 minute stop at
>>>15 feet on a Spare Air? Thought not. Either get a pony or put the
>>>octo on. Spare Air doesn't get you much. The Navy uses them for the
>>>helicopter pilots, but that's about the only valid use I see for them.
>>
>>
>> I was thinking about getting one for the truck.
>
> Filled with starting fluid, might make sense. Useless for topping up
> tires.


I wasn't gonna huff the thing, fer christsake, I meant for subaquatic
egress...

--
Popeye
"Best thing for him, really, his therapy was
going nowhere." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com




18 Jul 2006 19:46:14
Scott
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

"Popeye" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> > Filled with starting fluid, might make sense. Useless for topping up
> > tires.
>
>
> I wasn't gonna huff the thing, fer christsake, I meant for subaquatic
> egress...

They use ether out here in the dunes all the time.

It's one of the only ways you can seat a bead.




18 Jul 2006 22:57:03
Lee Bell
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

D wrote

> I have both. My BCD is an older type with velcro. Very easy to remove
> and put the weights in. Never used soft pouch weights, but I imagine they
> would be able to be used. I also have a spare air and not an octopus.
> Works extreamly well and would probably never fo back to an octopus wetup
> (no desire to do cave or wreck diving).

Or anyplace, depth or time where a direct ascent to the surface might kill
you or your buddy.

I have no problem with a Spare Air. I have not problem with no octopus. I
have a big problem with anyone that thinks a Spare Air is a substitute for
an octopus.

> Just make sure that you explain to who ever your buddy is how the system
> works in case of an emergency.

So that your buddy has a chance to find a new buddy before somebody actually
needs to depend on you for help.

Lee




19 Jul 2006 13:26:34
-hh
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Dillon Pyron wrote:
>
> ...Spare Air doesn't get you much. The Navy uses them for the
> helicopter pilots, but that's about the only valid use I see for them.


Actually, the US Navy *used* to use them as their HEED (Helicopter
Emergency Egress Device).

If memory serves, it was around a -- > decade <-- ago that they put the
HEED up for competition. The result was that Submersible Systems's
Spare Air lost the contract to US Divers.


-hh



26 Jul 2006 11:24:09
Dillon Pyron
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Thus spake "-hh" <[email protected] > :

>Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>
>> ...Spare Air doesn't get you much. The Navy uses them for the
>> helicopter pilots, but that's about the only valid use I see for them.
>
>
>Actually, the US Navy *used* to use them as their HEED (Helicopter
>Emergency Egress Device).
>
>If memory serves, it was around a --> decade <-- ago that they put the
>HEED up for competition. The result was that Submersible Systems's
>Spare Air lost the contract to US Divers.

Thanks for the correction. So, there are NO valid uses for Spare Air.

>
>
>-hh
--
dillon

JAFO


26 Jul 2006 17:23:59
Scott
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


"Dillon Pyron" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> >If memory serves, it was around a --> decade <-- ago that they put the
> >HEED up for competition. The result was that Submersible Systems's
> >Spare Air lost the contract to US Divers.
>
> Thanks for the correction. So, there are NO valid uses for Spare Air.

My kids loved playing in the bathtub with them.




27 Jul 2006 10:16:21
Star
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights


Scott wrote:
> "Dillon Pyron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
> > >If memory serves, it was around a --> decade <-- ago that they put the
> > >HEED up for competition. The result was that Submersible Systems's
> > >Spare Air lost the contract to US Divers.
> >
> > Thanks for the correction. So, there are NO valid uses for Spare Air.
>
> My kids loved playing in the bathtub with them.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

Did you ever let them see Baywatch?

*



31 Jul 2006 13:52:41
Dillon Pyron
Re: Question re: BCD, regulator, weights

Thus spake "Scott" <[email protected] > :

>
>"Dillon Pyron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>> >If memory serves, it was around a --> decade <-- ago that they put the
>> >HEED up for competition. The result was that Submersible Systems's
>> >Spare Air lost the contract to US Divers.
>>
>> Thanks for the correction. So, there are NO valid uses for Spare Air.
>
>My kids loved playing in the bathtub with them.
>

When I was a kid, I had to supply my own bubbles.
--
dillon

JAFO