31 Jul 2005 00:24:30
Adam Helberg
Awaiting my new Bio fins.

Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my Force Fins
slipped into the water and disappeared in the current. I made a feeble attempt at
retrieving the lost fin but the low air, one fin and the current in 50-60ft water
quickly convinced me give up the fin to the Davey Jones locker. The boat threw out a
float to help me get back to the boat in the current.

So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to trying them
out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had and will make
packing for travelling a little more difficult.

Adam




31 Jul 2005 01:22:21
Grumman-581
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Adam Helberg" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to
trying them
> out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had
and will make
> packing for travelling a little more difficult.

So, you should have ordered the exact same model as you previously had...
That way, you wouldn't have to order another pair when you lose your next
fix...




31 Jul 2005 02:02:20
Grumman-581
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Grumman-581" wrote in message news:[email protected]_s22...
<snip >

s/fix/fin/g




31 Jul 2005 02:18:21
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Grumman-581" <grumman###@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s22...
> "Adam Helberg" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to
> trying them
>> out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had
> and will make
>> packing for travelling a little more difficult.
>
> So, you should have ordered the exact same model as you previously had...
> That way, you wouldn't have to order another pair when you lose your next
> fix...

It was a thought. But my Force Fins were over ten years old and their design had not
changed. I always had problems with the strap, even after changing to their
bungee--their strap system is not a good design. And I wanted to try the new
technology. I use split fins for swimming and they work quite well.

Adam




30 Jul 2005 19:30:11
Scott
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Adam Helberg" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> It was a thought. But my Force Fins were over ten years old and their
design had not
> changed. I always had problems with the strap, even after changing to
their
> bungee--their strap system is not a good design. And I wanted to try the
new
> technology. I use split fins for swimming and they work quite well.

Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post.




31 Jul 2005 02:38:16
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Scott" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Adam Helberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> It was a thought. But my Force Fins were over ten years old and their
> design had not
>> changed. I always had problems with the strap, even after changing to
> their
>> bungee--their strap system is not a good design. And I wanted to try the
> new
>> technology. I use split fins for swimming and they work quite well.
>
> Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post.

Do you mean ScubaPro Twin Jets split fins? They come in heavy-weight black and in
light-weight, flexible blue.

I considered the *blue* Twin Jets because my legs sink badly and I thought they may
help with my trim, (and they're also light) but I heard more positive reports on the
Bio Fins than the Twin Jets., and the "Jets" look even more bulky to pack.

Adam




30 Jul 2005 19:50:36
Scott
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Adam Helberg" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Do you mean ScubaPro Twin Jets split fins? They come in heavy-weight black
and in
> light-weight, flexible blue.
>
> I considered the *blue* Twin Jets because my legs sink badly and I thought
they may
> help with my trim, (and they're also light) but I heard more positive
reports on the
> Bio Fins than the Twin Jets., and the "Jets" look even more bulky to pack.

1) Are you packing, or diving?

2) Is your decision process dominated by packing, or diving?

3) If your decision process for diving is dominatated by packing, forget it
all and rent at your destination, the rest is bullshit.




30 Jul 2005 21:36:36
Greg Mossman
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Scott" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> 3) If your decision process for diving is dominatated by packing, forget
> it
> all and rent at your destination, the rest is bullshit.

A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your
once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's
only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb
max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a
major factor in one's purchases.

The last ScubaPro demo I attended, they showed off an ultralight travel reg
that was only sold in Europe. As we're now approaching the ridiculous
European weight limits, travel weight is increasingly becoming a concern.
Force Fins, titanium, all that light shit, it'll be practically mandatory.




31 Jul 2005 05:25:38
Grumman-581
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Greg Mossman" wrote in message news:[email protected]
> The last ScubaPro demo I attended, they showed off an ultralight travel
reg
> that was only sold in Europe. As we're now approaching the ridiculous
> European weight limits, travel weight is increasingly becoming a concern.
> Force Fins, titanium, all that light shit, it'll be practically mandatory.

Was up at Oshkosh Friday and saw a Kevlar O2 tank about the same size as an
AL80... Damn that thing was light... Not practical for divers, of course,
but if you had the money to spend, it sure saves some weight for aircraft...




31 Jul 2005 00:53:04
nj_diver
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

Scott wrote:

> Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post.

Talk about a wasted post.....isn't that like the pot calling the kettle
black?

As for the Bio-Fins: they are excellent! I bought the first pair in NJ
and that was before any dealer was selling them. Bought them direct
from Apollo.

As for the weight or the ease of packing them: I have no experience
packing them for airline flights since all of the diving that I do is
20 miles from my front door....offshore NJ.



31 Jul 2005 09:30:17
JOF
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:50:36 -0700, "Scott"
<[email protected] > wrote:

>"Adam Helberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>> Do you mean ScubaPro Twin Jets split fins? They come in heavy-weight black
>and in
>> light-weight, flexible blue.
>>
>> I considered the *blue* Twin Jets because my legs sink badly and I thought
>they may
>> help with my trim, (and they're also light) but I heard more positive
>reports on the
>> Bio Fins than the Twin Jets., and the "Jets" look even more bulky to pack.
>
>1) Are you packing, or diving?

The problem for some of us is that good diving means travel (and
packing) to get to the dives. Some of you have great diving at your
doors. The rest of us get on a plane.

>2) Is your decision process dominated by packing, or diving?

Finding the balance. Jets are great, probably even the best for
drysuit diving, but I find mine a tad heavy for warm water in a 3/2 or
a skin. They also add perhaps a pound or more to the weight of my
baggage which might be problematic as far as the airline rules are
concerned. It's the same with some freediving fins being too long for
easy packing.

>3) If your decision process for diving is dominatated by packing, forget it
>all and rent at your destination, the rest is bullshit.
>
I'd rather find all the kit that works best for me while accommodating
the weight and dimensional restrictions of travel rather than spoiling
great dive trips with inferior rental gear. Isn't that why you came up
with your dogbone ss plate?

JF

"What embitters the world is not excess of criticism,
but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton


31 Jul 2005 07:33:08
Scott
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"nj_diver" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Scott wrote:
>
> > Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post.
>
> Talk about a wasted post.....isn't that like the pot calling the kettle
> black?

No, actually, Bio-fins are a joke that isnt funny.







31 Jul 2005 16:30:39
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Greg Mossman" wrote

> A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your
> once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's
> only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb
> max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a
> major factor in one's purchases.

Still, dictating gear with travel needs must really suck.

Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your
belt. Jets are one reason I don't need a weight belt, they are part of the
total dive system. For example, when I'n at Boynton, my scouts aren't just
emergency devices, they are part of my "ballast".

Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to see
someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting problem.

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 16:50:25
Al Wells
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

In article <[email protected] >, [email protected]
says...
> A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your
> once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's
> only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb
> max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a
> major factor in one's purchases.

I can't imagine it being a problem for a savvy recreational diver. We
just went to Bonaire, and I took my XL Jets with stainless steel spring
straps, a stainless steel backplate, a non weighted STA, my OW reg
setup, a small tool box with tools and spare parts, a backup first and
second stage, lights, a 3mm wetsuit, a skin, booties, bottom timer,
compass, plus some clothing and shaving stuff, and I wasn't even close
to the weight limit. cindy took all of that, a small canister light and
several pounds of stuff that women seem to need and was under the limit.

A few months ago we went cave diving in Mexico, with all of the gear we
needed including canister lights, and did not go over the weight limit.
All that we had to rent in Mexico was tanks. A friend down there loaned
me an emergency O2 bottle to keep to keep in the truck.

The domestic airlines allow 2 bags each, 50 lbs max each bag. They allow
70 lbs each bag on international flights. The island airlines that I
have used allow only 30 kg for each person if you are carrying dive
gear, otherwise it is 20 kg. We have not had any problem at all with
this.


31 Jul 2005 10:00:17
Greg Mossman
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]ws.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your
> belt. Jets are one reason I don't need a weight belt, they are part of
> the total dive system. For example, when I'n at Boynton, my scouts aren't
> just emergency devices, they are part of my "ballast".

Whatever. Try diving without a weight belt around here sometime. Most of
us get used to diving with weights, so an added one or two isn't a big deal.
We wouldn't be concerned with an extra one or two in our luggage either,
except that the airlines do care.

> Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to see
> someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting
> problem.

Most of us don't travel to places to dive silt. Truk Lagoon is a notable
exception.




31 Jul 2005 17:07:07
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Greg Mossman" wrote

>> Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to see
>> someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting
>> problem.

> Most of us don't travel to places to dive silt. Truk Lagoon is a notable
> exception.

I've been "silted out" at West Palm by a hoard of cattle wearing splits.

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 17:10:47
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Greg Mossman" wrote

> Whatever. Try diving without a weight belt around here sometime.

Is it something I couldn't do in my 3 mil, in summer anyway?

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 17:13:37
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Greg Mossman" wrote
>
>> A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your once-a-year
>> divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's only so much you can
>> take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb max bags. Choosing lighter
>> gear because it packs lighter now becomes a major factor in one's purchases.
>
> Still, dictating gear with travel needs must really suck.
>
> Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your belt. Jets
> are one reason I don't need a weight belt, they are part of the total dive system.
> For example, when I'n at Boynton, my scouts aren't just emergency devices, they are
> part of my "ballast".
>
> Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to see someone
> use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting problem.
>
> Curtis

Just did a Google search on Jets, seems they're the old Scubapro black solid fins
with some slots and old-style rubber strap. Ironically when I lost my fin someone on
the boat lent me a pair of these for the final dive and I found them very stiff and
uncomfortable. They hurt my feet and my lower legs. I'm used to soft, pliable fins
that sit solid on the upper part of my feet after using Force Fins for over ten
years.

A heavy negatively buoyant fin will add a small amount weight (my guess a pound or
so) but that pound will affect trim because it's sitting at the end of a lever. So
you may end up having to move more weight higher on the torso to counteract the pound
on the feet if your legs tend to sink.

Adam




31 Jul 2005 10:21:06
Greg Mossman
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Al Wells" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> The domestic airlines allow 2 bags each, 50 lbs max each bag. They allow
> 70 lbs each bag on international flights. The island airlines that I
> have used allow only 30 kg for each person if you are carrying dive
> gear, otherwise it is 20 kg. We have not had any problem at all with
> this.

I take it that you have no camera?




31 Jul 2005 10:22:05
Greg Mossman
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:%[email protected]
>
> "Greg Mossman" wrote
>
>>> Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to
>>> see someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting
>>> problem.
>
>> Most of us don't travel to places to dive silt. Truk Lagoon is a notable
>> exception.
>
> I've been "silted out" at West Palm by a hoard of cattle wearing
> splits.

That's what you get for diving with cattle. Do you really believe they
wouldn't have silted had they been wearing real fins?




31 Jul 2005 17:35:16
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Adam Helberg" wrote

> Just did a Google search on Jets, seems they're the old Scubapro black
> solid fins with some slots and old-style rubber strap. Ironically when I
> lost my fin someone on the boat lent me a pair of these for the final dive
> and I found them very stiff and uncomfortable. They hurt my feet and my
> lower legs. I'm used to soft, pliable fins that sit solid on the upper
> part of my feet after using Force Fins for over ten years.

Yep, that's what thet are, except I use SS spring traps. As far as
feet, that's what the bootie (& sock) are for. For the lower leg, don't
have fitness issues there, and can usually propell myself along with a
minimal kick anyway, tending to favor the modified flutter.

> A heavy negatively buoyant fin will add a small amount weight (my guess a
> pound or so) but that pound will affect trim because it's sitting at the
> end of a lever. So you may end up having to move more weight higher on the
> torso to counteract the pound on the feet if your legs tend to sink.

Funny, don't have that problem, but then again, rarely have my legs
fully extended. :-)

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 10:39:15
Greg Mossman
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Is it something I couldn't do in my 3 mil, in summer anyway?

Not if you're happy floundering around on the surface. At depth, the water
gets cold quickly any time of the year, rarely above 60 degrees at 60'. I'm
cold in a 5mm FJ in 60 degrees at 60'. A 3mm would be downright frigid.




31 Jul 2005 10:50:09
Greg Mossman
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Yep, that's what thet are, except I use SS spring traps. As far as
> feet, that's what the bootie (& sock) are for. For the lower leg, don't
> have fitness issues there, and can usually propell myself along with a
> minimal kick anyway, tending to favor the modified flutter.

Booties and flutters? Curtis, you're really scaring me. Maybe I will need
that red suit after all: ". . . form-fitting design . . . minimizes gap
exposure."





31 Jul 2005 18:33:56
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Greg Mossman" wrote

>> I've been "silted out" at West Palm by a hoard of cattle wearing
>> splits.
>
> That's what you get for diving with cattle.

Hey, I dove with Greg.....

> Do you really believe they wouldn't have silted had they been wearing real
> fins?

Possibly not as much, not all were in typical newbie position. Have
seen a very experienced OW / learning cave diver, who normally left zero
trail, leave a cloud with a set of splitties.

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 18:34:02
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Greg Mossman" wrote

>> Is it something I couldn't do in my 3 mil, in summer anyway?
>
> Not if you're happy floundering around on the surface. At depth, the
> water gets cold quickly any time of the year, rarely above 60 degrees at
> 60'. I'm cold in a 5mm FJ in 60 degrees at 60'. A 3mm would be downright
> frigid.

I comfortably do 2 hours in 69 deg water in a tee-shirt, used a half mil
skin in 60 deg water quite comfortably.....

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 18:34:38
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Greg Mossman" wrote

> Booties and flutters? Curtis, you're really scaring me. Maybe I will
> need that red suit after all: ". . . form-fitting design . . . minimizes
> gap exposure."

Yeah, booties, or whatever they're called. The damn rubber shoes you
wear with open heeled fins.

As far as modified flutter, I should have realized you weren'e advaced
enough a diver to know what that is. :-)

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 18:41:39
Whistler
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Magilla" wrote:
>
> I comfortably do 2 hours in 69 deg water in a tee-shirt, used a half mil
> skin in 60 deg water quite comfortably.....

Then you might actually get by with a 3mil in late summer. You could
certainly do the kelp and shallow reefs here in La Jolla. The canyon
has been hovering between 50 and 55 recently though and that gets a
little nippy. But the cold water is usually clearer, so we put up with it.


31 Jul 2005 18:48:36
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Whistler" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Magilla" wrote:
>>
>> I comfortably do 2 hours in 69 deg water in a tee-shirt, used a half mil skin
>> in 60 deg water quite comfortably.....
>
> Then you might actually get by with a 3mil in late summer. You could certainly do
> the kelp and shallow reefs here in La Jolla. The canyon has been hovering between
> 50 and 55 recently though and that gets a little nippy. But the cold water is
> usually clearer, so we put up with it.

I used to dive the canyon with the UCSD dive club in a 3mm with hooded vest. It
required a strenuous swim out to the canyon first which really heated me up and the
thin suit made the swim easier. Then down at 90 ft things got chilly but we did not
spend much time down there anyway.

Adam




31 Jul 2005 18:51:18
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Whistler" wrote

>> I comfortably do 2 hours in 69 deg water in a tee-shirt, used a half
>> mil skin in 60 deg water quite comfortably.....
>
> Then you might actually get by with a 3mil in late summer. You could
> certainly do the kelp and shallow reefs here in La Jolla. The canyon has
> been hovering between 50 and 55 recently though and that gets a little
> nippy. But the cold water is usually clearer, so we put up with it.

Figured that's possible, have one of the "good" 3 mils that's supposed
to be equivalent to a normal 5 mil.

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 19:00:27
Whistler
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Magilla" wrote:
> Figured that's possible, have one of the "good" 3 mils that's supposed
> to be equivalent to a normal 5 mil.

Stop by any time and we'll help you test your theory. We know what a
modified flutter is. ;-)


31 Jul 2005 19:19:16
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Whistler" wrote

>> Figured that's possible, have one of the "good" 3 mils that's
>> supposed to be equivalent to a normal 5 mil.
>
> Stop by any time and we'll help you test your theory.

As long as it's not just done to "prove" it can be done. I just have a
fairly good tolerance to cooler water, can be comfortable where others get
cold. I'm not immune to the laws of physics. :-)

> We know what a modified flutter is. ;-)

Anyone who's done at least a "Cavern" course should. :-)

Curtis






31 Jul 2005 19:28:56
Whistler
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Magilla" wrote:

> As long as it's not just done to "prove" it can be done. I just have a
> fairly good tolerance to cooler water, can be comfortable where others get
> cold. I'm not immune to the laws of physics. :-)

There's always stuff to see in the shallows. It's just that the octopus
come out in force a little deeper. And the dinner table sized halibut
like it down there as well.


31 Jul 2005 19:38:23
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Whistler" wrote

> There's always stuff to see in the shallows. It's just that the octopus
> come out in force a little deeper. And the dinner table sized halibut
> like it down there as well.

Be something to try.

Never worn anything past a 3 mil, just "graduated" to that to allow for
some longer exposures. I'd probably try it in a situation where it didn't
put myself or others at risk, and could easily bail if I was no longer
enjoying the dive. What Adam described as a brief exposure to the cooler
water would probably not bother me at all.

And, I agree, always something to see in the shallows about anywhere.

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 20:17:48
Whistler
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Magilla" wrote:
> I'd probably try it in a situation where it didn't
> put myself or others at risk, and could easily bail if I was no longer
> enjoying the dive.

The canyon lends itself to this. The bottom makes a perfect deco curve,
running very gradually to 30' over 400 yards,then dropping relatively
quickly down to 100' and more. Typical dive on the canyon is to surface
swim out, drop to 80', stay until cold or low on gas, then swim back to
shore along the bottom.

The canyon often has more to see than the shallows, but not always. To
the south you come up on shallow rock reefs that are full of lobsters
and schools of fish. To the north you get shrimp, squid, rays and
leopard sharks, though it easier to see the sharks while snorkeling.


31 Jul 2005 23:31:11
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

> "bullshark" wrote

>> Pick a fucking group and post to it.

Sorry. Nailed again.

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 20:20:33
Dan Bracuk
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
: Still, dictating gear with travel needs must really suck.

Not to those who actually travel.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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31 Jul 2005 20:22:33
Dan Bracuk
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
: Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your
:belt.

Lighter fins mean it is less likely that you will settle in the head
up, feet down position, meaning less effort while diving.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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01 Aug 2005 02:53:48
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Dan Bracuk" wrote

> : Still, dictating gear with travel needs must really suck.
>
> Not to those who actually travel.

You should read Al Wells reply.

Besides, some of us have no need to travel beyond where we can easily
drive, we already live in dive paradise.

Curtis







01 Aug 2005 02:54:09
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Dan Bracuk" wrote

> : Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your
> :belt.
>
> Lighter fins mean it is less likely that you will settle in the head
> up, feet down position, meaning less effort while diving.

Not once you actually learn how to dive.

Curtis




01 Aug 2005 03:27:41
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

Sorry, cross posting again. Will correct.

Curtis




31 Jul 2005 23:38:01
Dan Bracuk
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
: Not once you actually learn how to dive.

Explain it hotshot. Explain how heavier fins make it diving easier
once you actually know how to dive. Be sure to emphasize the part
where what works best for you mus automatically work for every other
dive in every conceivable situation.

As a bonus, please explain how those who prefer lighter fins don't
really know how to dive.

Go ahead hotshot, explain it.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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31 Jul 2005 23:43:42
Dan Bracuk
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
: Besides, some of us have no need to travel beyond where we can easily
:drive, we already live in dive paradise.

To all those who enjoy local diving, wherever you live, good for you,
absolutely fantastic. Enjoy your circumstances, not everyone shares
them

Just remember though, just because what is important to us travelling
divers is not important to y'all, does not mean it is not important to
those of us that do travel to dive.

Right Scott?

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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01 Aug 2005 00:00:50
Dan Bracuk
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
: You should read Al Wells reply.

This one?

***********
> A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your
> once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's
> only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb
> max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a
> major factor in one's purchases.

I can't imagine it being a problem for a savvy recreational diver. We
just went to Bonaire, and I took my XL Jets with stainless steel
spring
straps, a stainless steel backplate, a non weighted STA, my OW reg
setup, a small tool box with tools and spare parts, a backup first and
second stage, lights, a 3mm wetsuit, a skin, booties, bottom timer,
compass, plus some clothing and shaving stuff, and I wasn't even close
to the weight limit. cindy took all of that, a small canister light
and
several pounds of stuff that women seem to need and was under the
limit.

A few months ago we went cave diving in Mexico, with all of the gear
we
needed including canister lights, and did not go over the weight
limit.
All that we had to rent in Mexico was tanks. A friend down there
loaned
me an emergency O2 bottle to keep to keep in the truck.


The domestic airlines allow 2 bags each, 50 lbs max each bag. They
allow
70 lbs each bag on international flights. The island airlines that I
have used allow only 30 kg for each person if you are carrying dive
gear, otherwise it is 20 kg. We have not had any problem at all with
this.
***********

No offence to Al Wells, but I was invited to read his post. In a
nutshell, what is true for Al is true for Al, but not necessarily
anyone else. In fact, the spirit of his post is also true for me.

In my dive travels, I have never failed to meet the 20 kg limit for
checked luggage. In fact, when I went to Cayman Brac, I also met the
55 lb limit for all luggage and expect to meet it again later this
year.

But, I know how much you have to pay attention to every item of
luggage in order to make weight.

So to all you people who preach that jet fins are the best fins for
absolutely everybody, justify it.

By the way, to Adam, who started this thread, keep thinking for
yourself, you'll do well.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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01 Aug 2005 04:10:28
Whistler
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

Dan Bracuk wrote:

> ***********
>
> No offence to Al Wells, but I was invited to read his post. In a
> nutshell, what is true for Al is true for Al, but not necessarily
> anyone else. In fact, the spirit of his post is also true for me.

Ah yes, I forgot that Al was exempt from gravity. My bad.


01 Aug 2005 04:31:38
Lee Bell
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Dan Bracuk" wrote

A bunch of stuff while he was mad. Interesting, I don't see Dan mad often.

Dan has at least a few points right. While there are certainly some that
manage to travel with stainless plates, jetfins and all their gear, there's
no way in the world that they are easy to pack, carry and get past the
airlines, as a back inflation BC with no plate, like the ones Dive Rite
makes. Curtis can probably comfortably walk away with a hundred pounds in
each hand. Most would rather not.

Dan is also correct about trim. Curtis chose how he would arrange to have
good trim. He did it with relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, which, when
moved up and down, change trim considerably. I dive with Curtis and I can
testify that he is correctly trimmed. I do it with a stainless plate and a
single Compact 80 or HP 100 plus much lighter Mares full foot fins. I
didn't have much trouble finding correct trim either. There's more than one
way to skin this particular cat and, while Curtis's preferences work fine
for him, that does not mean that choices by others won't work as well for
them.

The only fins I hate worst than Jet Fins are Force Fins. I tried Jet Fins
when they first came out and I've tried them since. They just don't work
for me. Everything about them feels and acts wrong for me. They're 40 year
old technology which, while they work as well as they ever did, do not work
nearly as well for me as my full foot Mares Power Quatros or my full foot
Mares TRE fins. Both are noticeably lighter than the Jet Fins and the TREs
pack smaller as well.

This is a silly argument. I don't think Curtis intended to tell everybody
that the way he dives is the only way to dive. That's not his style. Like
most of us, he does share his preferences and, like most of us, sometimes
his bias creeps in. Big deal. He's human, even if Jayna did nickname him
Magilla.

Lee




01 Aug 2005 04:32:29
Lee Bell
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Whistler" wrote

>> No offence to Al Wells, but I was invited to read his post. In a
>> nutshell, what is true for Al is true for Al, but not necessarily
>> anyone else. In fact, the spirit of his post is also true for me.

> Ah yes, I forgot that Al was exempt from gravity. My bad.

Properly weighted and trimmed, all of us are when underwater.




01 Aug 2005 04:43:19
Lee Bell
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

Aw shit, me too. Sorry.

Lee

""Magilla"" <[email protected]$$ yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Sorry, cross posting again. Will correct.
>
> Curtis
>




01 Aug 2005 04:56:48
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Lee Bell" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Dan Bracuk" wrote
>
> A bunch of stuff while he was mad. Interesting, I don't see Dan mad often.
>
> Dan has at least a few points right. While there are certainly some that manage to
> travel with stainless plates, jetfins and all their gear, there's no way in the
> world that they are easy to pack, carry and get past the airlines, as a back
> inflation BC with no plate, like the ones Dive Rite makes. Curtis can probably
> comfortably walk away with a hundred pounds in each hand. Most would rather not.
>
> Dan is also correct about trim. Curtis chose how he would arrange to have good
> trim. He did it with relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, which, when moved up and
> down, change trim considerably. I dive with Curtis and I can testify that he is
> correctly trimmed. I do it with a stainless plate and a single Compact 80 or HP
> 100 plus much lighter Mares full foot fins. I didn't have much trouble finding
> correct trim either. There's more than one way to skin this particular cat and,
> while Curtis's preferences work fine for him, that does not mean that choices by
> others won't work as well for them.
>
> The only fins I hate worst than Jet Fins are Force Fins. I tried Jet Fins when
> they first came out and I've tried them since. They just don't work for me.
> Everything about them feels and acts wrong for me. They're 40 year old technology
> which, while they work as well as they ever did, do not work nearly as well for me
> as my full foot Mares Power Quatros or my full foot Mares TRE fins. Both are
> noticeably lighter than the Jet Fins and the TREs pack smaller as well.
>
> This is a silly argument. I don't think Curtis intended to tell everybody that the
> way he dives is the only way to dive. That's not his style. Like most of us, he
> does share his preferences and, like most of us, sometimes his bias creeps in. Big
> deal. He's human, even if Jayna did nickname him Magilla.
>
> Lee

The packing and weight issue becomes even more important if you go on a hybrid
vacation with lots of land activity. If I go for a pure dive destination I accept
lugging around lots of gear, but if two thirds of the time I'm traveling on land the
packing of dive gear becomes more of an issue. And it's nice to have deal with rental
gear.

Adam




01 Aug 2005 07:04:04
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Grumman-581" <grumman###@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s21...
> "Adam Helberg" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> The packing and weight issue becomes even more important if you go on a
> hybrid
>> vacation with lots of land activity.
>
> <crossposting-snipped>

from
http://tgos.org/newbie/rules.html

If a post is of interest for more than one group or fits into more than one group,
you can crosspost it to more than one group. While crossposting got a bad reputation
through crossposted spam, it saves disc space and bandwidth compared to sending the
same message multiple times to different Newsgroups.




01 Aug 2005 14:48:11
Chris Guynn
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Grumman-581" <grumman###@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s22...
> "Adam Helberg" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to
> trying them
> > out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had
> and will make
> > packing for travelling a little more difficult.
>
> So, you should have ordered the exact same model as you previously had...
> That way, you wouldn't have to order another pair when you lose your next
> fix...
>
>

But what if he lsot both left fins? ;-)




01 Aug 2005 10:08:04
Al Wells
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


Greg Mossman wrote:
> I take it that you have no camera?

I forgot about the camera - Cindy carries an Olympus camera and
housing, but no external strobes and such. This is probably much
lighter than your video equipment.



01 Aug 2005 11:20:09
-hh
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.

"Magilla" wrote:
> Never worn anything past a 3 mil, just "graduated" to that to allow for
> some longer exposures.

YMMV applies when it comes to degrees of thermal protection. For me,
if the water's 80F, I'll put on a full 3mm (like I wore when we dived
together last month) if I plan on being in for more than a half
hour...otherwise, I'll get chills at around 45 minutes due to
relatively low exertion levels, and I find that it helps me to lower
air consumption.


> ...I'd probably try it in a situation where it didn't
> put myself or others at risk, and could easily bail if I was no longer
> enjoying the dive. What Adam described as a brief exposure to the cooler
> water would probably not bother me at all.

Once you head north, the waters will get chilly enough such that you'll
want quite a bit of 'rubber blubber'. For example, I got this NJ dive
report from some yesterday's dive:

"...scallop dive in 115-120'. Surface vis was beautiful with
the reports of vis on the bottom a dark 15-20'. Bottom temp 46=BA.

Second stop was the 120 wreck where it was a bit warmer at 52=BA
and vis a brighter 20'+. A few bugs brought up as well as
a beast of a monkfish..."


YMMV, but for 52F at 120fsw, I'd definitely want a full 7mm Farmer
John, hood and gloves. And for the 46F for the first dive at the same
depth, it probably would have been bordering on most people's comfort
tolerance limits for diving wet.


-hh



01 Aug 2005 22:42:18
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Dan Bracuk" wrote

> Go ahead hotshot, explain it.

You really shouldn't do the name calling, I suspect I'm a "tad" more
experienced than you are overall in my lesser number of years diving. This
ain't a bigger dick contest, I also recognize & respect you've been around
the block a few times too, and have done things I have not.

Curtis




01 Aug 2005 22:42:56
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"-hh" wrote

YMMV, but for 52F at 120fsw, I'd definitely want a full 7mm Farmer
John, hood and gloves. And for the 46F for the first dive at the same
depth, it probably would have been bordering on most people's comfort
tolerance limits for diving wet.

Probably would some, but as for trying high 50's briefly at depth with
warmer shallow waters, I suspect I'd be OK.

Low 50's would probably entice me to do drysuit.

Fortunately, My home waters are usually much warmer.

Curtis




02 Aug 2005 00:34:09
Magilla
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Lee Bell" wrote

Curtis chose how he would arrange to have
> good trim. He did it with relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, which,
> when moved up and down, change trim considerably.

Not quite Lee, just picked up this detail. The doubles, unlike singles,
don't get shifted all that much, pretty much get set top of top band at the
point of the top of the "flat". My yellow set is down 1/4" lower than the
white set only because the whites have 2 1/2" bands, and the yellows 2"
bands, so set the tanks the same (bolts are in same position on both sets).
Wing is the same size as the tanks, so minor shifts affect valve position &
streamlining, but not that much trim.

Curtis






12 Aug 2005 08:43:51
Douglas W. Popeye Frederick
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Adam Helberg" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my
Force Fins
> slipped into the water and disappeared in the current. I made a feeble
attempt at
> retrieving the lost fin but the low air, one fin and the current in
50-60ft water
> quickly convinced me give up the fin to the Davey Jones locker. The boat
threw out a
> float to help me get back to the boat in the current.
>
> So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to
trying them
> out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had
and will make
> packing for travelling a little more difficult.
>
> Adam

I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking
won't cure.


--
An American friend of mine - living in Canada - says that in the US, greed
is acceptable but envy is a sin. In Canada it is just the opposite. I would
suggest that envy is our national sport. And no one inspires more envy in us
than our southern neighbor. It is a shame, because any legitimate gripes we
may have about America get lost in a sea of childish wolf-crying.




12 Aug 2005 14:04:28
Limey
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Adam Helberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my
> Force Fins
>> slipped into the water and disappeared in the current. I made a feeble
> attempt at
>> retrieving the lost fin but the low air, one fin and the current in
> 50-60ft water
>> quickly convinced me give up the fin to the Davey Jones locker. The boat
> threw out a
>> float to help me get back to the boat in the current.
>>
>> So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to
> trying them
>> out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had
> and will make
>> packing for travelling a little more difficult.
>>
>> Adam
>
> I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking
> won't cure.
>
>
Keyboard, dammit!
Please give warning in the future.

LD.




12 Aug 2005 16:51:02
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Adam Helberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my
> Force Fins
>> slipped into the water and disappeared in the current. I made a feeble
> attempt at
>> retrieving the lost fin but the low air, one fin and the current in
> 50-60ft water
>> quickly convinced me give up the fin to the Davey Jones locker. The boat
> threw out a
>> float to help me get back to the boat in the current.
>>
>> So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to
> trying them
>> out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had
> and will make
>> packing for travelling a little more difficult.
>>
>> Adam
>
> I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking
> won't cure.

I tried the haircut and kick myself all the time, and nothing works.

Adam




12 Aug 2005 17:52:33
Adam Helberg
Re: Awaiting my new Bio fins.


"Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Adam Helberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my
> Force Fins
>> slipped into the water and disappeared in the current. I made a feeble
> attempt at
>> retrieving the lost fin but the low air, one fin and the current in
> 50-60ft water
>> quickly convinced me give up the fin to the Davey Jones locker. The boat
> threw out a
>> float to help me get back to the boat in the current.
>>
>> So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to
> trying them
>> out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had
> and will make
>> packing for travelling a little more difficult.
>>
>> Adam
>
> I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking
> won't cure.
>

By the way I sent the Bio-fins back and am going back to my Force Fin Pro, which is
what I'm used to. The Bio-Fin was pinching my toes.

Adam