21 Feb 2007 07:42:34
determined
stride length?

A girlfriend and I met in Sedona for some hiking over the weekend, but spent
some time in the gym while there. We ran side beside on treadmills, and she
pointed out that at the same speed, I was taking about twice as many steps,
so I guess I am taking really short steps. I had never even paid attention
to that. By lengthening my steps, I wonder how it will affect my run? I'm
going to try it today.




21 Feb 2007 08:09:01
Charlie Pendejo
Re: stride length?

determined wrote:
> A girlfriend and I met in Sedona for some hiking over the weekend, but spent
> some time in the gym while there. We ran side beside on treadmills, and she
> pointed out that at the same speed, I was taking about twice as many steps,
> so I guess I am taking really short steps. I had never even paid attention
> to that. By lengthening my steps, I wonder how it will affect my run?

Badly. It'll probably make you slower and, if adhered to over time,
predispose you to injury.

Unless your cadence is freakishly high, like well over 200 strides per
minute, it's a near lock that you're the one running at a "good"
cadence.

180 strides per minute (90 with each foot... 3 per second e.g. left-
right-left) is often cited as a more or less "optimal" stride rate.
google something like "180 strides minute daniels" and you'll find
plenty of reading.

At most, some folks believe that whatever stride rate you naturally
adopt is what's optimal for you - I've *never* read anyone suggest
that decreasing cadence is a good idea. And I'm one who, early on,
took note of my rate for a while and worked it up to 180 on easy runs;
and I think it's been beneficial. As good as the body is at finding
its own equilibrium, its optimum, in many regards, I'm dubious about
many runners' - especially relative novices - slow cadences being a
good thing. I suspect the equilibriums our bodies tend to find are
sometimes thrown off a little by modern lifestyles and equipment (e.g.
really cushy shoes with radically raised heels).



21 Feb 2007 09:09:28
runsrealfast
Re: stride length?

On Feb 21, 9:42 am, "determined" <[email protected] > wrote:
> A girlfriend and I met in Sedona for some hiking over the weekend, but spent
> some time in the gym while there. We ran side beside on treadmills, and she
> pointed out that at the same speed, I was taking about twice as many steps,
> so I guess I am taking really short steps. I had never even paid attention
> to that. By lengthening my steps, I wonder how it will affect my run? I'm
> going to try it today.


When I was first starting out I had a really short stride (this was in
High School). My coaches just figured that it was partly natural and
partly because I played alot of basketball and just gained the habit
because I spent so much time on the court. I really started to work on
my running form through drills. From my freshman year to my senior
year, somewhat naturally, my stride length increased. I wasn't making
a mental effort to increase my stride. Looking at the differences in
my stride during the time, I realized that my early running stride was
very inefficent. I still have a short stride, but its natural for me.

John



21 Feb 2007 09:17:53
tfactor
Re: stride length?

On Feb 21, 11:09 am, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> determined wrote:
> > A girlfriend and I met in Sedona for some hiking over the weekend, but spent
> > some time in the gym while there. We ran side beside on treadmills, and she
> > pointed out that at the same speed, I was taking about twice as many steps,
> > so I guess I am taking really short steps. I had never even paid attention
> > to that. By lengthening my steps, I wonder how it will affect my run?
>
> Badly. It'll probably make you slower and, if adhered to over time,
> predispose you to injury.
>

Oh yeah. In my earliest days of running, when I had even less of a
clue than I do now, I thought I needed to lengthen my stride to get
faster. I didn't get faster; I got a broken leg (tibial stress
fracture). Really, the cause and effect was that clear: lengthen
stride - > break leg.

> Unless your cadence is freakishly high, like well over 200 strides per
> minute, it's a near lock that you're the one running at a "good"
> cadence.
>
> 180 strides per minute (90 with each foot... 3 per second e.g. left-
> right-left) is often cited as a more or less "optimal" stride rate.
> google something like "180 strides minute daniels" and you'll find
> plenty of reading.
>
> At most, some folks believe that whatever stride rate you naturally
> adopt is what's optimal for you - I've *never* read anyone suggest
> that decreasing cadence is a good idea. And I'm one who, early on,
> took note of my rate for a while and worked it up to 180 on easy runs;

My cadence increased naturally as my speed increased and eventually
settled its current ~180 steps/minute. I have had to make an effort
since then to maintain that cadence when I run much slower than my
"automatic" pace, e.g. on recovery runs. If I don't make the effort
my cadence drifts down and I'm concerned that it won't come back up
when I resume a faster pace.

> and I think it's been beneficial. As good as the body is at finding
> its own equilibrium, its optimum, in many regards, I'm dubious about
> many runners' - especially relative novices - slow cadences being a
> good thing. I suspect the equilibriums our bodies tend to find are
> sometimes thrown off a little by modern lifestyles and equipment (e.g.
> really cushy shoes with radically raised heels).

I can spot beginners immediately by their long bounding strides with
lots of vertical motion, like deer running through tall grass. I don't
think it's an accident that you never see top finishers in races with
that kind of gait, or really any finishers in longer races. Either
they adopt a more efficient gait (whether deliberately or naturally)
or they fall by the wayside.




21 Feb 2007 09:23:28
tfactor
Re: stride length?

On Feb 21, 12:09 pm, "runsrealfast" <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Feb 21, 9:42 am, "determined" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > A girlfriend and I met in Sedona for some hiking over the weekend, but spent
> > some time in the gym while there. We ran side beside on treadmills, and she
> > pointed out that at the same speed, I was taking about twice as many steps,
> > so I guess I am taking really short steps. I had never even paid attention
> > to that. By lengthening my steps, I wonder how it will affect my run? I'm
> > going to try it today.
>
> When I was first starting out I had a really short stride (this was in
> High School). My coaches just figured that it was partly natural and
> partly because I played alot of basketball and just gained the habit
> because I spent so much time on the court. I really started to work on
> my running form through drills. From my freshman year to my senior
> year, somewhat naturally, my stride length increased. I wasn't making

But did you increase your stride at the expense of cadence? I'm
guessing you didn't, that you maintained a high cadence and as you got
stronger and more fit you lengthened your stride to increase your
speed. Is that right?

> a mental effort to increase my stride. Looking at the differences in
> my stride during the time, I realized that my early running stride was
> very inefficent. I still have a short stride, but its natural for me.
>
> John




21 Feb 2007 09:34:33
runsrealfast
Re: stride length?

On Feb 21, 11:23 am, "tfactor" <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Feb 21, 12:09 pm, "runsrealfast" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21, 9:42 am, "determined" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > A girlfriend and I met in Sedona for some hiking over the weekend, but spent
> > > some time in the gym while there. We ran side beside on treadmills, and she
> > > pointed out that at the same speed, I was taking about twice as many steps,
> > > so I guess I am taking really short steps. I had never even paid attention
> > > to that. By lengthening my steps, I wonder how it will affect my run? I'm
> > > going to try it today.
>
> > When I was first starting out I had a really short stride (this was in
> > High School). My coaches just figured that it was partly natural and
> > partly because I played alot of basketball and just gained the habit
> > because I spent so much time on the court. I really started to work on
> > my running form through drills. From my freshman year to my senior
> > year, somewhat naturally, my stride length increased. I wasn't making
>
> But did you increase your stride at the expense of cadence? I'm
> guessing you didn't, that you maintained a high cadence and as you got
> stronger and more fit you lengthened your stride to increase your
> speed. Is that right?

Your right. My coach in college and I talked about this as well (she
thought my stride was a bit short). After talking about the changes I
had in HS she figured as you just did, same cadence and longer stride
and more speed. Another thing to consider in my situation. I was 14
when I started running. I grew (up, still fight to keep from growing
out) for about another year and a half (about 3 inches) so that must
be taken into consideration.

John




21 Feb 2007 09:36:55
D Stumpus
Re: stride length?


"determined" <[email protected] > wrote

> A girlfriend and I met in Sedona for some hiking over the weekend, but
> spent some time in the gym while there. We ran side beside on treadmills,
> and she pointed out that at the same speed, I was taking about twice as
> many steps, so I guess I am taking really short steps. I had never even
> paid attention to that. By lengthening my steps, I wonder how it will
> affect my run? I'm going to try it today.

Not a good idea. If your stride is shorter than hers at the same speed,
then you are bouncing less than she is. Means you are more efficient, and
get less pounding.

Elite runners I have run with almost always have shorter strides at a given
pace than I do. I think that's why they're elite and I'm not. If you have
a short, quick stride, more power to you. Charlie P has a very quick short
stride, and I predicted his rapid improvement from a year ago. We expect
another breakthrough soon...

I have observed this in elites many times, most recently with a young 30:30
10k runner who dragged me around my favorite route a couple of months ago.

The only exception I've experienced was with the #3 in the world marathoner
Ben Maiyo. He and I were stride for stride at a 6:45 pace. But his 2:11
marathoner buddy had much shorter, quicker strides. (And yes, I was running
for all I was worth, and they were jogging...)




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



21 Feb 2007 11:10:48
Charlie Pendejo
Re: stride length?

Dan wrote:
> Charlie P has a very quick short stride, and I predicted his rapid
> improvement from a year ago. We expect another breakthrough soon...

Thanks for the kind words and thoughts.

I'm about to see my endo, a Russian woman; the way I've been running
this month my best shot at a near-future breakthrough is to beg her
for some of whatever her masters countrywomen are on... must be the
prune yogurt.



22 Feb 2007 16:13:10
D Stumpus
Re: stride length?


"Charlie Pendejo" <[email protected] > wrote

> I'm about to see my endo, a Russian woman; the way I've been running
> this month my best shot at a near-future breakthrough is to beg her
> for some of whatever her masters countrywomen are on... must be the
> prune yogurt.

Did you read the cite here about how thin guys often have low Testosterone
and that replacement therapy is the best therapy to promote healthy bone
mass? That'll give you a performance boost, as long as they don't do
testing at local races....

-- Dan (who just realized that his asthma inhaler was empty, and got a nice
boost in performance after replacing it)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



22 Feb 2007 17:44:22
Charlie Pendejo
Re: stride length?

Dan wrote:
> Pendejo wrote
>> I'm about to see my endo, a Russian woman

First of all, I want to make sure you're picturing the right woman
here. She's no short and lumpy potato-picking proletarian babushka.
No sir! Dr. L. is in fact a willowy, fair-haired (which I won't hold
against her, even if I ain't a gentleman and don't normally prefer
blondes), thirtysomething of regal bearing who favors a skirt and
boots under her lab coat - a real delight to spend time with.


> Did you read the cite here about how thin guys often have low
> Testosterone and that replacement therapy is the best therapy
> to promote healthy bone mass? That'll give you a performance
> boost...

As you know, I'm not whippet-thin like you or your buddy Larry; and as
Dr. L. knows, my testosterone numbers are in a VERY healthy range,
thank you very much. Not that, ahem, there was any specific reason to
suspect otherwise - all part of routine testing.

Though I'm deeply bummed to report, I think I blew my best chance so
far with her yesterday. She was asking about my running - where do I
train? Am I gonna run Boston? I told her no, I'm focused on shorter
races this spring and will run a fall marathon, probably in France or
Italy.

Rather than impress her with my sophisticated European aspirations, it
seemed pretty clear that I had just conveyed "no Boston - must be
slow." I tried for a quick save, interjecting (not without some
plausibility) that maybe in 2008 I'd consider the White Nights
Marathon in St. Petersburg; but alas, I think I was just digging
myself deeper here. Pretty sure she's written me off as just another
jogging clown with good testosterone but a lousy thyroid.

Ah well, maybe I'll scan my insurance listings for more Russian or
Ukrainian women dentists. I'm due for a checkup. Found one in my
neighborhood last time, and lo and behold she turned out to be around
my age. But not my type. Unless I want to get as serious about my
drinking as I've been about the running.



23 Feb 2007 06:46:53
Doug Freese
Re: stride length?


"D Stumpus" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Charlie Pendejo" <[email protected]> wrote
> -- Dan (who just realized that his asthma inhaler was empty, and got a
> nice boost in performance after replacing it)


So that's your secret. All this time I thought it was all the hills.
Never did I think the cocktail was lifting you up and over. :)

Are there any specific conditions such as air quality, elevation,
humidity, speed, etc that have the biggest effect?

-Doug




23 Feb 2007 07:05:11
Doug Freese
Re: stride length?


"Charlie Pendejo" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> As you know, I'm not whippet-thin like you or your buddy Larry; and as
> Dr. L. knows, my testosterone numbers are in a VERY healthy range,
> thank you very much. Not that, ahem, there was any specific reason to
> suspect otherwise - all part of routine testing.
>
> Though I'm deeply bummed to report, I think I blew my best chance so
> far with her yesterday. She was asking about my running - where do I
> train? Am I gonna run Boston? I told her no, I'm focused on shorter
> races this spring and will run a fall marathon, probably in France or
> Italy.

Take it from and old snake, going to Beantown is definite aphrodisiac.

>
> Rather than impress her with my sophisticated European aspirations, it
> seemed pretty clear that I had just conveyed "no Boston - must be
> slow."

If you had followed it with an offer form her to come along you may have
"turned" her head. See what I mean about all those miles.....relegated
to self abuse cuz ya can't think fast enough. ;)

>
> Ah well, maybe I'll scan my insurance listings for more Russian or
> Ukrainian women dentists.

That's a good path. When they go to fill cavity and they say in their
best accent, "you don't need no stinkin' Novocain," a date is just
around the corner.

Take a small hint from Uncle Doug, the chances of getting lucky are
times ten in trail races. You may actually may get dragged off into the
bushes after a race for a consult.

-Doug




23 Feb 2007 09:50:41
Charlie Pendejo
Re: stride length?

Doug wrote:
> See what I mean about all those miles.....relegated
> to self abuse cuz ya can't think fast enough. ;)

Aha, so *that's* your real critique of high mileage.

Well why didn't you just say so earlier? That's a lot more compelling
than anything else you've said over the years.

Although, I'm finding this week - with six consecutive runs in shorts
in 40-45F temps, and three weeks of some workouts and races in my
legs, and just a tad less volume - that high volume slow base running
winter fog can give way to spring feistiness in a hurry, even at my
advanced age.

And anyway, is it really self *abuse*? Abuse it or lose it...


> Take a small hint from Uncle Doug, the chances of getting lucky are
> times ten in trail races. You may actually may get dragged off into
> the bushes after a race for a consult.

Another reason to look forward to retiring to the trails once I'm
old(er) and slow(er) and no longer roadworthy. :-)



23 Feb 2007 17:50:24
MarkH
Re: stride length?

"Doug Freese" <[email protected] > wrote

> Take a small hint from Uncle Doug, the chances of getting lucky
> are times ten in trail races.

Yeah, these cult guys are always promising easy sex to get you to
join.

> You may actually may get dragged
> off into the bushes after a race for a consult.

So start practicing your pig-squealing right now. :-)



23 Feb 2007 11:14:43
D Stumpus
Re: stride length?

"Doug Freese" <[email protected] > wrote

....

>> -- Dan (who just realized that his asthma inhaler was empty, and got a
>> nice boost in performance after replacing it)

> So that's your secret. All this time I thought it was all the hills. Never
> did I think the cocktail was lifting you up and over. :)

The stuff I use is for Exercise Induced Asthma (EIA) and is IAAF legal --
has no stimulants, and is slow-acting.

> Are there any specific conditions such as air quality, elevation,
> humidity, speed, etc that have the biggest effect?

Smoggy days definitely, as well as cold days to a lesser extent. I read
that about 20% of olympian endurance athletes have some form of EIA.

In my case it is very subtle, no big time wheezing, etc, but a definite drop
in performance, up to a minute/mile. When running, I can't really open up
my lungs and take a deep, satisfying breath without it. Andy Hass (the 2:29
guy who used to show up here) also has to take a couple of hits before he
runs, so I'm in good company.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



24 Feb 2007 00:00:50
MarkH
Re: stride length?

"D Stumpus" <[email protected] > wrote

> The stuff I use is for Exercise Induced Asthma (EIA) and is IAAF
> legal -- has no stimulants, and is slow-acting.

But do you have to have a medical diagnosis of asthma to be able to
use it? The reason I'm asking is that I read in a biking article
somewhere that after a (recent?) ruling allowing asthma inhalers,
something like 80% of the riders suddenly developed asthma. :-)

The other question would be what effect would the inhalers have on
healthy, non-asthmatic lungs? Wouldn't there also be some
beneficial (although reduced) effect due to the increased openings
of the lung passages?

>> Are there any specific conditions such as air quality,
>> elevation, humidity, speed, etc that have the biggest effect?
>
> Smoggy days definitely,

In that case, I make a motion that our "duel in the sun" race be in
Shanghai. That's the only place I've ever visited where you can
actually smell the pollution as soon as airplane lands. Amazingly,
you can also see a bluish/purplish haze forming *inside* the dome
of the airport terminal. The 30 vanity miles I racked up in
downtown Shanghai have to be the equivalent of smoking at least a
couple of cartons of Marlboros. You should do very well there. ;-)








as well as cold days to a lesser extent.
> I read that about 20% of olympian endurance athletes have
> some form of EIA.
>
> In my case it is very subtle, no big time wheezing, etc, but a
> definite drop in performance, up to a minute/mile. When
> running, I can't really open up my lungs and take a deep,
> satisfying breath without it. Andy Hass (the 2:29 guy who used
> to show up here) also has to take a couple of hits before he
> runs, so I'm in good company.
>
>
>
>



23 Feb 2007 21:16:23
Doug Freese
Re: stride length?


"Charlie Pendejo" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Another reason to look forward to retiring to the trails once I'm
> old(er) and slow(er) and no longer roadworthy. :-)

Maybe you should tell that to guys like Rich Hanna and Scott Jurek and
some of the other old and slow that finish in the top ten. By the way in
the past couple of years there is an influx of young fast runners that
feel secure enough to forego the road hubris. I guess for some the
audience is most important. :)

-Doug




23 Feb 2007 21:43:16
Doug Freese
Re: stride length?


"D Stumpus" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> The stuff I use is for Exercise Induced Asthma (EIA) and is IAAF
> legal -- has no stimulants, and is slow-acting.

I was onlu kidding about the lift.

> Andy Hass (the 2:29 guy who used to show up here) also has to take a
> couple of hits before he runs, so I'm in good company.

What ever happened to Andy? I remember he tried to squeeze two years
worth of improvements into one year to try to qualify for the Olympics
and then slid off into the sunset, or at least away from r.r.

A quick google...check out the interview with Andy
http://michiganrunner.tv/2006churchills/ He ran the race in 1:09:54 -
not to shabby for a 1/2 thon.
http://toledoroadrunners.org/results/results2006/2006_Churchills_half_marathon.htm
Fom the interview he is getting over some anemia.

-Doug




23 Feb 2007 21:27:39
Charlie Pendejo
Re: stride length?

Doug wrote:
> What ever happened to Andy?

He got old and slow and retired to the trails. ;-)

I don't spend any time at Cool Running, but someone's link or google
or something brought me there for a moment months ago and it looked
like he'd become a regular on their forum. Maybe he'd had enough of
the trolls or something.



24 Feb 2007 05:48:49
Dot
Re: stride length?

Charlie Pendejo wrote:
> Doug wrote:
>
>>What ever happened to Andy?
>
>
> He got old and slow and retired to the trails. ;-)
>
> I don't spend any time at Cool Running, but someone's link or google
> or something brought me there for a moment months ago and it looked
> like he'd become a regular on their forum. Maybe he'd had enough of
> the trolls or something.
>
I've seen him in the Basic Training forum on CR a few times, more this
winter than in the past, but not particularly regularly (maybe a couple
times a month on average). He might be more regular in one of the more
advanced fora where I don't go.;) I think he's still fast but from his
few posts I couldn't tell for sure if he was edging toward another OT
attempt.

Troy is one I've wondered what happened to.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope



24 Feb 2007 05:31:32
Doug Freese
Re: stride length?


"Charlie Pendejo" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Doug wrote:
>> What ever happened to Andy?
>
> He got old and slow and retired to the trails. ;-)
>
> I don't spend any time at Cool Running, but someone's link or google
> or something brought me there for a moment months ago and it looked
> like he'd become a regular on their forum. Maybe he'd had enough of
> the trolls or something.


We always have/had our share of trolls. Some people leave because the
signal to noise ratio grows but most, IMO, leave when they can't run be
it injury or health. When you're down for the count the last thing you
want to do is read about what you can't do. If Andy was battling anemia,
and this can be very debilitating, he may have retired from r.r. while
he recovered. OTOH, I wonder if Ozzie didn't grow weary of the dorks.

Anyway, Andy was always very even tempered and never resorted to any
egotistical, in your face, dialog while clearly he had the best
credentials on the list.

-Doug




24 Feb 2007 13:08:15
I2Run
Re: stride length?


"Doug Freese" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
|
|
| We always have/had our share of trolls. Some people leave because the
| signal to noise ratio grows but most, IMO, leave when they can't run be
| it injury or health.

UDF (uncle DF), I need a technical clarification here:
SNR grows means better signal and less noise.
Did you mean they leave when there is more useful information? :-)




24 Feb 2007 10:18:46
Charlie Pendejo
Re: stride length?

Doug wrote:
> Andy was always very even tempered and never resorted to any
> egotistical, in your face, dialog while clearly he had the best
> credentials on the list.

Yeah, definitely. Many of us, myself most certainly included, have
horrific accomplishment:horseshit ratios compared to Andy.

Fortunately, I can live with that. :-)



24 Feb 2007 11:02:57
D Stumpus
Re: stride length?


"MarkH" <[email protected] > wrote

> But do you have to have a medical diagnosis of asthma to be able to
> use it? The reason I'm asking is that I read in a biking article
> somewhere that after a (recent?) ruling allowing asthma inhalers,
> something like 80% of the riders suddenly developed asthma. :-)

There are two main kinds of inhalers I'm aware of: Albuterol, and Atrovent.
I use the latter, because I've had a history of SVT.

Albuterol is a stimulant, note the side effects:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/albut2_ad.htm

It's also a banned Beta 2 Agonist:
http://www.runnersweb.com/running/news/rw_news_20041221_PRP_Ergogenics.html

Atrovent is not a stumulant, nor is it controlled:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/ipratrop_ad.htm

> The other question would be what effect would the inhalers have on
> healthy, non-asthmatic lungs? Wouldn't there also be some
> beneficial (although reduced) effect due to the increased openings
> of the lung passages?

A friend of mine tried that out after hearing me rave about how much better
I ran with Atrovent. He tried if off and on for a couple of weeks (doc gave
him an RX), and it had no effect whatever.

His doc said that one test for asthma is to measure your lung capacity, then
use the inhaler, and measure it again 20 minutes later. If no difference,
no asthma. It seems to be one of those "if it works, you've got it" things.
I mean, if your lungs can fully open up, what's the point?

>>> Are there any specific conditions such as air quality,
>>> elevation, humidity, speed, etc that have the biggest effect?
>>
>> Smoggy days definitely,

> In that case, I make a motion that our "duel in the sun" race be in
> Shanghai. That's the only place I've ever visited where you can
> actually smell the pollution as soon as airplane lands. Amazingly,
> you can also see a bluish/purplish haze forming *inside* the dome
> of the airport terminal.

I wonder if Jimi Hendrix got his inspiration there?

> The 30 vanity miles I racked up in
> downtown Shanghai have to be the equivalent of smoking at least a
> couple of cartons of Marlboros. You should do very well there. ;-)

Thanks for the invite, but I'll pass on that one. Arizona (parts of which
get some haze from the plants powering L.A.) is more lung-friendly.

I've read that Bejing (site of '08 Summer Olympics) has such poor air
quality that lots of "normal" athletes become asthamatic. Various coaches
and trainers are experimenting with various potions and regimens as we
speak.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



24 Feb 2007 11:20:35
Charlie Pendejo
Re: stride length?

Dan wrote:
> Hutch wrote:
>> Shanghai [...] you can also see a bluish/purplish haze forming
>
> I wonder if Jimi Hendrix got his inspiration there?

Aha, so that line is actually "'scuse me, while I sniff Shanghai!"