31 Jul 2004 21:45:48
C.G.
Ultra training.

Most marathon training schedules I've seen have the longest slow run at around 20 miles. Longer
distance isn't recommended because of the length of time the body takes to recover, or so I'm lead
to believe. But if I'm training for a 40 mile race, I must have to include runs much longer than
20. Has anyone here got any advice on how long those runs should be and how to factor them into an
overall training plan?

--
Colm





31 Jul 2004 21:10:42
Sam
Re: Ultra training.


"C.G." <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Most marathon training schedules I've seen have the longest slow run at
around 20 miles. Longer
> distance isn't recommended because of the length of time the body takes to
recover, or so I'm lead
> to believe. But if I'm training for a 40 mile race, I must have to include
runs much longer than
> 20. Has anyone here got any advice on how long those runs should be and
how to factor them into an
> overall training plan?
>
> --
> Colm
>


I hope Doug will respond since this is his preferred racing distances.

I bet that if you Google ultra running, you would find several sites with
training programs.

I would think that getting in longer runs would still be important, but the
pace would need to be cut back even more. That said, I know a fellow who
runs (and runs it pretty fast) 100 mile races and I do not think he has ever
done a training run over 30 miles.

I think people who run farther than the marathon distance are a bit off, but
I also have a certain admiration for them.




31 Jul 2004 21:36:34
Robert Grumbine
Re: Ultra training.

In article <[email protected] >,
C.G. <[email protected] > wrote:
>Most marathon training schedules I've seen have the longest slow run at
>around 20 miles. Longer
>distance isn't recommended because of the length of time the body takes
>to recover, or so I'm lead
>to believe. But if I'm training for a 40 mile race, I must have to
>include runs much longer than
>20. Has anyone here got any advice on how long those runs should be and
>how to factor them into an
>overall training plan?

Lots of things you haven't mentioned here. One important one is
whether you've already run a few marathons and have figured out what
works for you at that distance and duration. If not, probably the
best thing for you to do is solve that problem (those problems).

As Sam mentioned, ultra running resources are probably best. I'm
blanking on full cites, but I think ultrarunr.com (or org, and it
might be fred.ultrarunr.com instead) is one of the best. (Have to check
a source that isn't at hand; but it is missing the 'ne' from runner.)

Rather than distance, though, think time. If this is 40 miles on
road of a sort you've done some good marathons on, that's one thing.
In that case, there's a fair amount of just doing a bit more of the same
thing that will get you through. If you're a track miler, and are
looking at 40 miles of single track trail up and down rocky mountainsides
at 3000m (10,000 feet) elevation, well, that's a very different matter.

I did go from 10 mile road races being my longest to doing a
50 km ultra on relatively 'easy' trails. I'd guessed 5.5 hours as
the general realm for me on that course (turned out to be 6), and
trained my longest run up to about 4 hours. That was probably enough,
though I made some other training mistakes, most of which I would
not have made if I'd had some half marathon to marathon races done
well.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences


31 Jul 2004 23:32:15
Dan Stumpus
Re: Ultra training.

Ultra training is marathon training with an occasional longer run thrown in.
I do repeats, tempo runs and long runs, just like a typical marathoner.

I do shorter ultras (up to 50 miles), and my rule of thumb is to get one or
two runs in on the same type of terrain (ideally on the course!), of about
3/4 of the time you think you can do in the race. If you think it's going
to take you 6 hours, do a run or two of 4 1/2 hours duration. This will
teach you alot about pacing. If you finish this run being able to jog up
hills without leg burn, you have succeeded.

I'll do a 28-30 miler in the mountains (about 6 hours) a few weeks before a
50 miler. Other than that, my long runs are between 3 and 4 hours. You
don't need to run a 40 mile training run to finish your race well.

Ultras are mainly about execution: proper tapering, pacing, hydration, and
nutrition. I can't stress this enough. Hang out and train with ultra guys
(not the speed demons who can run the thing at 7 minute miles). Listen to
their wisdom, and do as they do.

The ultra list has some good information. I think this link will enable you
to subscribe (and possibly search the archives)
http://listserv.dartmouth.edu/archives/ultra.html some of the traffic is
instructive. I visit there daily.

Good Luck,

Dan


"C.G." <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Most marathon training schedules I've seen have the longest slow run at
around 20 miles. Longer
> distance isn't recommended because of the length of time the body takes to
recover, or so I'm lead
> to believe. But if I'm training for a 40 mile race, I must have to include
runs much longer than
> 20. Has anyone here got any advice on how long those runs should be and
how to factor them into an
> overall training plan?
>
> --
> Colm
>
>
>




01 Aug 2004 00:35:16
Doug Freese
Re: Ultra training.


"Sam" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I think people who run farther than the marathon distance are a bit
off,

Only a little but not so far that turn republican. :)

> I also have a certain admiration for them.

See my chest rise....

-DougF




01 Aug 2004 01:15:04
Doug Freese
Re: Ultra training.


"Dan Stumpus" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Ultra training is marathon training with an occasional longer run
thrown in.
> I do repeats, tempo runs and long runs, just like a typical
marathoner.
>
> I do shorter ultras (up to 50 miles), and my rule of thumb is to get
one or
> two runs in on the same type of terrain (ideally on the course!), of
about
> 3/4 of the time you think you can do in the race.

First off if you ask this question among 100 ultra runners you would get
99 different replies. I agree completely with Dan that you should
immitate the race terrian as best you can. Training flat and racing
hills do work well.

I also agree with running 3/4 of the time you anticipate racing. The
catch is you probably have no idea how long it will take since you are
new. I will not agree with the 3/4 suggestion for races greater than
50 miles. No way people doing a 100 in 24 hours will ever do a training
run of 18 hours. Since you may not be able to anticipate time I would
say a few long runs in the 25 mile range with the terrain equal to or
harder than the race.

> to take you 6 hours, do a run or two of 4 1/2 hours duration. This
will
> teach you alot about pacing. If you finish this run being able to jog
up
> hills without leg burn, you have succeeded.
>
> I'll do a 28-30 miler in the mountains (about 6 hours) a few weeks
before a
> 50 miler.

Dan finishes in the top 10 percent doing a 6 hour run for a 50 I do 5
hour runs and hang in the top 20 percent. It's not a proportion but goal
setting.

>
> Ultras are mainly about execution: proper tapering, pacing, hydration,
and
> nutrition. I can't stress this enough. Hang out and train with ultra
guys
> (not the speed demons who can run the thing at 7 minute miles).
Listen to
> their wisdom, and do as they do.

Right on!!


>
> The ultra list has some good information. I think this link will
enable you
> to subscribe (and possibly search the archives)
> http://listserv.dartmouth.edu/archives/ultra.html some of the traffic
is
> instructive. I visit there daily.
I'd also look at:
http://www.ultrunr.com/ AND http://www.run100s.com/

What race are you doing?

-DougF




31 Jul 2004 21:13:46
Jim
Re: Ultra training.


"Doug Freese" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I think people who run farther than the marathon distance are a bit
> off,
>
> Only a little but not so far that turn republican. :)

You're good Freese, but not that good.




01 Aug 2004 04:07:21
gentolm
Re: Ultra training.

CG
i have done 1 35 mile run / it was a bit o fun
also you might want to look in to i think they are called succeed caps
doug has the site
plodizlla

"C.G." wrote:
>
> Most marathon training schedules I've seen have the longest slow run at around 20 miles. Longer
> distance isn't recommended because of the length of time the body takes to recover, or so I'm lead
> to believe. But if I'm training for a 40 mile race, I must have to include runs much longer than
> 20. Has anyone here got any advice on how long those runs should be and how to factor them into an
> overall training plan?
>
> --
> Colm


01 Aug 2004 09:05:48
C.G.
Re: Ultra training.

Thanks Robert,

I've 2 marathons and 2 halves done so far. I plan to have 2 more halves and a full done by the time
this 40 miler comes up in March.
Is this the site you're talkng about http://www.ultrunr.com? It looks very useful.
Thanks for the tip on running for time rather than distance. I figure that's probably what I'll do.

--
Colm


"Robert Grumbine" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]

: Lots of things you haven't mentioned here. One important one is
: whether you've already run a few marathons and have figured out what
: works for you at that distance and duration. If not, probably the
: best thing for you to do is solve that problem (those problems).
:
: As Sam mentioned, ultra running resources are probably best. I'm
: blanking on full cites, but I think ultrarunr.com (or org, and it
: might be fred.ultrarunr.com instead) is one of the best. (Have to check
: a source that isn't at hand; but it is missing the 'ne' from runner.)
:
: Rather than distance, though, think time. If this is 40 miles on
: road of a sort you've done some good marathons on, that's one thing.
: In that case, there's a fair amount of just doing a bit more of the same
: thing that will get you through. If you're a track miler, and are
: looking at 40 miles of single track trail up and down rocky mountainsides
: at 3000m (10,000 feet) elevation, well, that's a very different matter.
:
: I did go from 10 mile road races being my longest to doing a
: 50 km ultra on relatively 'easy' trails. I'd guessed 5.5 hours as
: the general realm for me on that course (turned out to be 6), and
: trained my longest run up to about 4 hours. That was probably enough,
: though I made some other training mistakes, most of which I would
: not have made if I'd had some half marathon to marathon races done
: well.




01 Aug 2004 09:06:55
C.G.
Re: Ultra training.

Thanks to all who responded. The ultra I'm looking at is in Connemara
(http://www.connemarathon.com/)next March. I did the full marathon there (my 2nd) last march. I
plan to have one more under my belt this October.
As far as training goes, I'm useless at following schedules. The only thing I tend to keep
consistent about is my long run at the weekend during my buildup to a race. I would expect to
finish the ultra in the 6:30 - 7:00 region. The 26 miles of the course I did in March took me 3:56
so 6:30 would be a very good result over the same terrain.

--
Colm





01 Aug 2004 09:44:50
Doug Freese
Re: Ultra training.


"C.G." <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Thanks to all who responded. The ultra I'm looking at is in Connemara
> (http://www.connemarathon.com/)next March. I did the full marathon
there (my 2nd) last march. I
> plan to have one more under my belt this October.

The winning time for last year was 4:10 which suggests it's reletively
flat and from a picture or two it is a raod race. It doesn't mean it's
easy just less hard than many 40 mile races.


> As far as training goes, I'm useless at following schedules. The only
thing I tend to keep
> consistent about is my long run at the weekend during my buildup to a
race.

It is the bread a butter for the race but some mid week tempo work will
really help with the clock.

I would expect to
> finish the ultra in the 6:30 - 7:00 region. The 26 miles of the course
I did in March took me 3:56
> so 6:30 would be a very good result over the same terrain.

The web page was very poor at describing the elevation so I'm shooting
from the hip on degree of dificulty. Anywho, good luck!!

-DougF




02 Aug 2004 02:10:03
Sam
Re: Ultra training.


"Doug Freese" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I think people who run farther than the marathon distance are a bit
> off,
>
> Only a little but not so far that turn republican. :)

I would be happier with you being a Libertarian :)



>
> > I also have a certain admiration for them.
>
> See my chest rise....
>
> -DougF
>
>




02 Aug 2004 12:15:56
dieshooter
Re: Ultra training.

You will have to get comfortable going more than 20 miles, but you
don't have to do that distance as fast, nor do you have to run it all
... take your time, slow down. Most runners in races longer than a 50k
use a run/walk, with a lot of "walk" .. walk the uphills, get used to
drinking and eating along the way and you'll do fine. A nice way to be
fully prepared is to do a long run on Saturday (24-30 miles) then
follow up on Sunday with a "longish" run .. say 15 miles ... it gets
you used to running on dead legs, and you'll gain confidence to keep
going in the race when you just feel wiped out.

Things you'll deal with in ultras are the need to consume AND digest
calories, that means take care of your stomach, experiment with foods
you can eat on your training runs. Drink plenty of fluids. Take care
of your feet ... in a marathon, if you have a little sore spot or a
pebble in your shoe, you tend to ignore it and keep going, in an
ultra, that can kill your race, you must stop and address sore spots,
ripples in your socks, etc, because as the miles pile up, even small
irritations can create disasterous blisters.

40 miles is very doable to someone who has run at least one marathon.
Just remember to conserve energy, walk regularly (many experiment with
a version of walking a minute for every 5 minutes running ....) and
practice walking fast.

good luck!






"C.G." <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Most marathon training schedules I've seen have the longest slow run at around 20 miles. Longer
> distance isn't recommended because of the length of time the body takes to recover, or so I'm lead
> to believe. But if I'm training for a 40 mile race, I must have to include runs much longer than
> 20. Has anyone here got any advice on how long those runs should be and how to factor them into an
> overall training plan?


02 Aug 2004 20:38:39
Tony
Re: Ultra training.

dieshooter wrote in message ...
>You will have to get comfortable going more than 20 miles, but you
>don't have to do that distance as fast, nor do you have to run it all
>... take your time, slow down. Most runners in races longer than a 50k
>use a run/walk, with a lot of "walk" .. walk the uphills, get used to
>drinking and eating along the way and you'll do fine. A nice way to be
>fully prepared is to do a long run on Saturday (24-30 miles) then
>follow up on Sunday with a "longish" run .. say 15 miles ... it gets
>you used to running on dead legs, and you'll gain confidence to keep
>going in the race when you just feel wiped out.

I've heard this before but I've always been too wiped out the next day to
try it, though I usually try to do an easy bike ride the day after a long
run.

>
>Things you'll deal with in ultras are the need to consume AND digest
>calories, that means take care of your stomach, experiment with foods
>you can eat on your training runs. Drink plenty of fluids. Take care
>of your feet ... in a marathon, if you have a little sore spot or a
>pebble in your shoe, you tend to ignore it and keep going, in an
>ultra, that can kill your race, you must stop and address sore spots,
>ripples in your socks, etc, because as the miles pile up, even small
>irritations can create disasterous blisters.

This is very true. But I'm still at a loss for how to handle rain - and wet
feet - during an ultra type event. Any advice?

>
>40 miles is very doable to someone who has run at least one marathon.
>Just remember to conserve energy, walk regularly (many experiment with
>a version of walking a minute for every 5 minutes running ....) and
>practice walking fast.

This is also great advice, even for long training runs. When it's
dangerously hot outside (like yesterday) or when you feel empty, it pays
great dividends to walk some every few mins to let the body settle. I
prefer to walk a min or 2 after every 10 mins. Every time the stopwatch
goes to 10 or 20 or 30, I will walk a couple of minutes when I'm adopting
that strategy, or when trail running I will walk the hills and also when the
HR goes too high.

- Tony
>
>good luck!
>





03 Aug 2004 07:41:34
rick++
Re: Ultra training.

At this time the Colorado hills "are alive with sound of runner footsteps"
training for arguably the most famous ultra: 100-mile Leadville in August.
People seem to have different strategies. Some do long runs more frequently,
such a 20-30 miler every third day. Others follow a more traditional schedule
of 5-7 hour run. The goal is to break 24 hours in this race that run at a two
mile altitude and has 16,000 feet of altitude change.