26 Feb 2007 08:44:07
CamelBak

Anyone with Marathon race experience use the Camelbak? My goal is to
run the Marine Corps Marathon in October, and qualify for Boston. So
to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a few
minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?



26 Feb 2007 08:55:12
Phil M.
Re: CamelBak

On Feb 26, 11:44 am, [email protected] wrote:

> Anyone with Marathon race experience use the Camelbak? My goal is to
> run the Marine Corps Marathon in October, and qualify for Boston. So
> to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a few
> minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?

I have a CamelBak, but have recently started using the Gregory
Stimulus
http://www.gregorypacks.com/prod.php?ID=63

I have never used a pack in a marathon, but I do use it in training.
I'd rather not have to carry the extra weight of the fluids. My
personal preference is to get used to whatever they are serving at the
race. Start training with that at least a month before the marathon.
Do some shorter events and practice drinking on the run. You should be
able to run right by the aid station, grabbing a cup and drink the
contents with minimal spillage.

--
Phil M.



26 Feb 2007 17:01:12
Elflord
Re: CamelBak

On 2007-02-26, [email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
> Anyone with Marathon race experience use the Camelbak?

The question you should be asking is, has anyone ever qualified for
Boston wearing a Camelbak ?

> My goal is to
> run the Marine Corps Marathon in October, and qualify for Boston. So
> to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a few
> minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?

Make sure you get a matching gorilla suit.

Or ditch the camelbak and learn to drink on the run.

Cheers,
--
Elflord


26 Feb 2007 09:11:44
Re: CamelBak

Has anyone ever qualified for Boston wearing a Camelbak?



26 Feb 2007 09:28:17
Phil M.
Re: CamelBak

On Feb 26, 12:11 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Has anyone ever qualified for Boston wearing a Camelbak?

Probably, but it was in spite of the CamelBak.

--
Phil M.



26 Feb 2007 09:47:43
Charlie Pendejo
Re: CamelBak

Donovan wrote:
> The question you should be asking is, has anyone ever qualified
> for Boston wearing a Camelbak ?

Tom B, do you wear one of those things for your marathons?



26 Feb 2007 19:23:02
Dot
Re: CamelBak

[email protected] wrote:
> Anyone with Marathon race experience use the Camelbak? My goal is to
> run the Marine Corps Marathon in October, and qualify for Boston. So
> to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a few
> minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?
>

I don't do marathons (and wouldn't consider a big city marathon), would
never be close to qualifying for Boston, but do run with a hydration
pack on all my races and training runs over 2 hrs since we don't have
aid stations in the races I do.

If you're that close to not being able to make the QT because of time to
hit aid station, I think you may find the weight of the cb would slow
you down even more. Figure out how much water that would be and its
weight. That said, I've heard that some (well, it's been mentioned in at
least one race report, but don't remember which) of the big city
marathons may have lots of slimy trash near aid stations where people
throw their trash, so there is a potential obstacle course.

You might consider a water bottle that you refill at just a few
stations, esp. if you have your own drink preference.

The flip side of the above argument is that if you drink better or more
frequently from a cb than a bottle or cup and it's a warm day, you may
be better with a cb. I'm not sure how well equipped they might be for
refilling one (hopefully not from 4 oz cups), which could take ages.
That would mean carrying all the water from the start.

If you don't like their sports drinks (some marathons provide a brand
that's more like a diet drink with minimal calories and negligible
electrolytes), you will need to carry something of your own, but could
use powder and add water to bottle.

I'm assuming you're asking early enough that you'd get used to carrying
the extra weight and do all your long runs with it, which is a good idea.

The one marathon I've watched had the leaders with minimal gear (some
had crews) and as runners were farther back they were carrying more and
more gear (which was needed), including lots of cb's. That race had aid
stations, but far enough apart that slower runners definitely needed to
carry food and fuel with them. Changing weather also made it nice for
them to carry layers.

FWIW, up to about 60 oz, it's not too bad, but I don't think I want to
carry 80oz or more, if I didn't have to. OTOH, that may be me getting
used to 100oz bladder vs 70 oz.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope



26 Feb 2007 13:48:27
Re: CamelBak

On 26 feb, 17:44, [email protected] wrote:
> Anyone with Marathon race experience use the Camelbak? My goal is to
> run the Marine Corps Marathon in October, and qualify for Boston. So
> to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a few
> minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?

Stopping at a drinking area will not take more than a few secconds per
time. I do not know how often you have run a marathon but finishing
was for me more important than saving one minute in time. The
disadvantage of the use of a camelbag is that you carry as of the
start with half a kilo.



26 Feb 2007 14:45:40
Mrs. Tberry
Re: CamelBak

I think you would chafe horribly from wearing it. I would not suggest
it. If a cotton t-shirt can rub nipples off, I can only imagine the
damage that would do, maybe even saw your arms off, ouch!



26 Feb 2007 23:46:35
steve common
Re: CamelBak

[email protected] wrote:

>The
>disadvantage of the use of a camelbag is that you carry as of the
>start with half a kilo.

It's a small Camelbak if it's only half a kilo, cos mine's a 2 litre beast
and weighs not far off 2.5kg when full = > I wouldn't dream of running a
"fast" race with it on (like, up to a 100k road race) or indeed any
raunning event where drink stations are available at <= half-hour
intervals.


26 Feb 2007 23:55:14
steve common
Re: CamelBak

[email protected] wrote:

>So
>to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a few
>minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?

It may save you like 2+ minutes over the race, if you waste 20 secs at
each of 8 stops. Fine. But it will unfortunately lose you something like

camelbak full weight / 2 / your weight %

due to the extra weight you're having to carry. Not to mention the change
of form you'll need to make so as to compensate for having the thing on
your back.

So if you're doing 4 hours, weigh 80 kilos and the full camelbak weight 2
kilos, you'll lose

2 / 2 / 80 = 1.25% * 240 mins = 3 minutes

Unless you're really bad at picking up drink, or worried about them
running out of fluids, or like to feel totally autonomous, forget the
camelbak (and if you haven't trained with it on most of your long runs and
some pace runs, forgot it even quicker)


26 Feb 2007 16:32:35
h squared
Re: CamelBak

Dot wrote:


>
> You might consider a water bottle that you refill at just a few
> stations, esp. if you have your own drink preference.

> If you don't like their sports drinks (some marathons provide a brand
> that's more like a diet drink with minimal calories and negligible
> electrolytes), you will need to carry something of your own, but could
> use powder and add water to bottle.


just to add a similar thought (and disclaimer, i am no kind of expert on
this subject)- i am kinda a control freak, so would carry one of these
(bottle in a holder) for a longer race-
http://media.rei.com/media/41146.jpg

it would still require stopping sometimes to refill (but hopefully less
often and i could use my own drink mix powder). cheap enough that if i
was feeling good and "topped off" enough i would just throw it away in
the last few miles.

maybe the op could experiment with using a camelbak in a (pre target
race) race and using the aid stations for drinks in another race of
similar distance to see which works better for him? i am just thinking
that running with a full camelbak would feel kinda heavy (i do own 3 of
various sizes and the 100oz one was too heavy for me to use more than
once, and that was *skating* not running)

not very helpful,
hh


27 Feb 2007 03:21:20
Tony S.
Re: CamelBak

"h squared" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Dot wrote:
>>
>> You might consider a water bottle that you refill at just a few stations,
>> esp. if you have your own drink preference.
>
>> If you don't like their sports drinks (some marathons provide a brand
>> that's more like a diet drink with minimal calories and negligible
>> electrolytes), you will need to carry something of your own, but could
>> use powder and add water to bottle.
>
> just to add a similar thought (and disclaimer, i am no kind of expert on
> this subject)- i am kinda a control freak, so would carry one of these
> (bottle in a holder) for a longer race-
> http://media.rei.com/media/41146.jpg

That's the UD kind with the nipple, which don't work very well. If you have
older UD bottles, you can replace the top. They ruined a good design IMO.

What I use for runs of about 1 to 2 about hours, or for races is:
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,82907_.html
but with a zefal 1 liter bike bottle, which is more leakproof, fits more
snugly, and thus stays put better in the pack. This pack has the perfect
amount of space for wallet, keys, cellphone, and a few jells; or in a race,
lots of jells and stuff. I liked it so much I bought a 2nd one for when the
first one wears out ;)

On longer runs I have worn the above waistpack along with a 70oz hydration
backpack, which I like because I can save the liter bottle for when the pack
goes dry, and know that I have exactly one liter left.

For road races that have many aid stations, I would probably go with a
smaller widemouth handheld bottle. Since I have a UD 20oz handheld I'd use
that, but not with the new nipple. Handhelds are good when it's hot since
you tend to remember to drink more often.

-Tony




26 Feb 2007 19:40:42
PiledHIgher
Re: CamelBak

>From here:

http://www.marathonandbeyond.com/choices/williams.htm

"Optimizing your body weight may be a very effective means to improve
your marathon performance. V.O2max may be expressed in several ways,
including total V.O2max in liters per minute (L O2 /min), or based on
body mass (ml O2/kg/min). If your total V.O2max is 4.0 liters/min
(4,000 ml/min) and if you weigh 80 kg, then your V.O2max is 50 ml O2/
kg/min (4,000 ml O2 /80 kg). If you lose 5 kg (11 pounds; 1 kg = 2.2
lbs) to 75 kg and maintain your V.O2max at 4,000 ml/min, then your
V.O2max increases to 53.3 ml O2/kg/min, a 6.6 percent increase.

Let's apply this body-weight change to marathon running. To run a
marathon in four hours, you would need to maintain a pace
approximating 176 meters per minute (42,200 m/240 min). Again,
disregarding the resting O2 in the ACSM formula, the oxygen cost to
run a four-hour marathon approximates 35.2 ml O2/kg/min (0.2 ml O2 3
176 m/min). For an 80-kg runner, this totals about 2,816 ml O2/min
(which is running at about 70 percent of V.O2max). If this runner
would lose 5 kg of body fat (about a 6 percent loss), the oxygen cost
would drop to 2,640 ml O2/min, a savings of about 176 ml O2/min (over
6 percent). Since the cost of running each meter for our 75-kg runner
is 15 ml O2 (0.2 ml O2 3 75 kg), the speed of running would increase
approximately 11.7 m/min (176 ml O2/15 ml O2) to a speed of 187.7 m/
min. This would improve the marathon running time to 3:44:50, or an
improvement of about 15 minutes (about 6 percent faster).

In general, for every 1 percent loss of body mass, primarily as body
fat, there will be an approximate 1 percent increase in running
speed."

So assuming a current body weight of 70kg as an example you are
carrying on average an extra 2% weight (2.5kg full to 0.5kg empty
camelback average 1.5kg). So add to 2% to your predicted time, will
you still qualify?



27 Feb 2007 05:22:44
Elflord
Re: CamelBak

On 2007-02-27, h squared <[email protected] > wrote:

> just to add a similar thought (and disclaimer, i am no kind of expert on
> this subject)- i am kinda a control freak, so would carry one of these
> (bottle in a holder) for a longer race-
> http://media.rei.com/media/41146.jpg
>
> it would still require stopping sometimes to refill (but hopefully less
> often and i could use my own drink mix powder). cheap enough that if i

Or one could just use gels + water


--
Elflord


27 Feb 2007 17:46:45
D Stumpus
Re: CamelBak


<[email protected] > wrote in message

> Anyone with Marathon race experience use the Camelbak? My goal is to
> run the Marine Corps Marathon in October, and qualify for Boston. So
> to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a few
> minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?

Here's my analysis of the problem:

0. You need to know how much you need to drink in the marathon so that you
haven't lost more than 2-3% of your body weight by the end. My experience
is that more weight loss than that impairs performance, and 5% causes
debilating leg cramps. You saw this happening to some of the olympic
marathoners in Athens.

In my case, I need about 4 oz/mile in mild 68F weather at race pace. Less
if cooler, a lot more if warm. You learn this by weighing yourself before
and after runs of various lengths, intensities, and at races in various
conditions.

Going by thirst alone can lead to disaster in a long race. For 5 and 10k's
I don't drink at all -- I only loose a few lbs of sweat, so the cost/benefit
doesn't work out.

So then you look at how the aid stations are spaced out, and do a bit of
math.

1. If you can drink out of a cup while running fast and get it all down,
then that is the best strategy. Charlie P can do this at sub 7:00 pace. If
they have aid stations every 2 miles, then you get 8oz at each aid station
if that's your optimal replacement rate. I can't even come close to
drinking out of a cup while running fast (my stride is too bouncy), so I
carry.

2. If you carry, waterpacks of various types are too slow to refill. I
have worn the Camelbak in many races of 30 to 50 miles, but abandoned it in
favor of bottles. For marathons and half marathons, I carry a single 24 oz
bottle in a waist pack. This is good for 6 miles of fluid.

What I do is: Start the race with a full bottle. Then every 6 miles, as I
approach the aid station, I unscrew the bottle, hold the top in my teeth,
stop and quickly pour 4-5 cups into it. Then I take off and put the top
back on the run. Now I can sip a few ounces every mile with minimal
disruption while running.

The time lost is only about 10-15 secs every 6 miles, which is pretty
minimal compared to most people who have to walk through the aid stations to
drink.

3. The weight penalty for carrying 12oz (.75 lbs) on average is .5% or 54
seconds for a 150# 3:00 marathoner. In my experience of running alongside
non-full-speed-cup-drinkers, this ends up being much faster. It's fun, in
an evil way, hearing them straining to catch up to me after I've blown
through 2/3 of the aid stations while they have to walk for a few seconds
and drink. I can refill in the time it takes most people to drink a cup.

4. If you want the water or sports drink to go down, you need salt tablets,
about 1 succeed salt capsule per 24 oz bottle. As you run you lose salt,
and as you get low in salt, your stomach sloshes around and doesn't drain,
and you get queasy, and don't want to drink. This is a vicious cycle which
leads to dehydration and impared performance. With salt, your stomach
drains nicely and all is well.

Experiment with this hydration/salt regimen on long runs first, until it's
second nature.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



28 Feb 2007 10:47:59
tfactor
Re: CamelBak

D Stumpus wrote:
>
> 2. If you carry, waterpacks of various types are too slow to refill. I
> have worn the Camelbak in many races of 30 to 50 miles, but abandoned it in
> favor of bottles. For marathons and half marathons, I carry a single 24 oz
> bottle in a waist pack. This is good for 6 miles of fluid.

Dan, is there a particular brand/model of bottle-carrier waist pack you
recommend?


28 Feb 2007 09:48:10
D Stumpus
Re: CamelBak


"tfactor" <[email protected] > wrote

> Dan, is there a particular brand/model of bottle-carrier waist pack you
> recommend?

http://www.rei.com/product/48111618.htm

I use this 'cause it's very light. I added a small packet-add-on which fits
on the belt in front. That way I can snag my gels or a salt capsules
without reaching around.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



28 Feb 2007 13:14:57
tfactor
Re: CamelBak

D Stumpus wrote:
> "tfactor" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Dan, is there a particular brand/model of bottle-carrier waist pack you
>> recommend?
>
> http://www.rei.com/product/48111618.htm
>
> I use this 'cause it's very light. I added a small packet-add-on which fits
> on the belt in front. That way I can snag my gels or a salt capsules
> without reaching around.

Perfect. Thanks!


28 Feb 2007 16:22:57
Daniel
Re: CamelBak

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:48:10 -0800, "D Stumpus"
<[email protected] > wrote:

>
>"tfactor" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Dan, is there a particular brand/model of bottle-carrier waist pack you
>> recommend?
>
>http://www.rei.com/product/48111618.htm
>
>I use this 'cause it's very light. I added a small packet-add-on which fits
>on the belt in front. That way I can snag my gels or a salt capsules
>without reaching around.

I really like the REI fabric -- dries very quickly, doesn't get heavy
when wet with sweat. Since I am often on trails in summer, after
carefully watching the gear worn by participants in the Western States
video (KVIE TV's "A Race for the Soul") I opted for the REI double
bottle pack:

http://www.rei.com/product/48111621.htm

It has room for phone, camera, baggies of beverage powder, food, etc.
I use the 750ml bottles from Performance Bicycle:

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/Profile.cfm?SKU=22663&item=20-4449&slitrk=search&slisearch=true

These fit in the REI packs and also the UD packs or hand-helds. These
go on sale every couple of months. One thing I like about this bottle
is that the cap (nipple closed) functions as a cup so I can re-fill a
capful at a time from the low-flow drinking fountains at some of the
municipal parks.

Good luck!
--
Daniel ( [email protected] )

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



28 Feb 2007 16:43:34
Charlie Pendejo
Re: CamelBak

Daniel wrote:
> I use the 750ml bottles from Performance Bicycle

750ml, eh? Would something like these work?

http://www.coste-du-rhone.com/vins/buisson_renard_2002_psp.jpg
http://www.gangofpour.com/offlines/cleve_03/images/pur_sang.jpg



01 Mar 2007 07:51:17
Daniel
Re: CamelBak

On 28 Feb 2007 16:43:34 -0800, "Charlie Pendejo"
<[email protected] > wrote:

>Daniel wrote:
>> I use the 750ml bottles from Performance Bicycle
>
>750ml, eh? Would something like these work?
>
>http://www.coste-du-rhone.com/vins/buisson_renard_2002_psp.jpg
>http://www.gangofpour.com/offlines/cleve_03/images/pur_sang.jpg

[ ... images of wine bottles...]

Yer might be onta sumpthin! :-)

Really, CP, the way that mind of yours "works"!
--
Daniel ( [email protected] )

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



01 Mar 2007 19:02:18
MarkH
Re: CamelBak

Daniel <[email protected] > wrote

> On 28 Feb 2007 16:43:34 -0800, "Charlie Pendejo"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Daniel wrote:
>>> I use the 750ml bottles from Performance Bicycle
>>
>>750ml, eh? Would something like these work?
>>
>>http://www.coste-du-rhone.com/vins/buisson_renard_2002_psp.jpg
>>http://www.gangofpour.com/offlines/cleve_03/images/pur_sang.jpg
>
> [ ... images of wine bottles...]
>
> Yer might be onta sumpthin! :-)
>
> Really, CP, the way that mind of yours "works"!

Apparently, the guiding principle is "I'd rather have a bottle in
front of me than a frontal lobotomy.".


01 Mar 2007 13:35:22
Charlie Pendejo
Re: CamelBak

Hutch wrote:
> Daniel wrote:
>> Really, CP, the way that mind of yours "works"!
>
> Apparently, the guiding principle is "I'd rather have a bottle in
> front of me than a frontal lobotomy.".

Well, if I *only* get to choose *one*...



02 Mar 2007 07:00:29
Doug Freese
Re: CamelBak


<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Has anyone ever qualified for Boston wearing a Camelbak?

Probably. Now what do you plan to do with the fact that John/Jane Doe
did. As people are trying to suggest, the alleged time you save passing
the aid stations vs. the hauling the H2O is not a winning proposition
unless your race is in the heat of the Mohave desert with aid stations
every 10 miles.

It's right up there with those that have qualified while juggling the
entire time.

Now that I think if it, I may have done it with a waist pack and a
large water bottle. FWIW I had already qualified for Boston at Boston
and I was running for the hell of it. Also note I still took some fluids
in the later stages to augment my bottle.

-DF




02 Mar 2007 07:08:21
Doug Freese
Re: CamelBak


"Mrs. Tberry" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>I think you would chafe horribly from wearing it. I would not suggest
> it. If a cotton t-shirt can rub nipples off, I can only imagine the
> damage that would do, maybe even saw your arms off, ouch!

If the CB is adjusted properly you can eliminate chaffing. CB's are worn
in ultra races for 5-30+ hours.

-Doug




17 Mar 2007 06:39:15
Phil M.
Re: CamelBak

[email protected] wrote:

>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Anyone with Marathon race experience use the Camelbak? My goal is to
>> run the Marine Corps Marathon in October, and qualify for Boston. So
>> to minimize my time, I thought getting the Camelback may save me a
>> few minutes from stopping at the drinking areas. Any recommendations?
>
> Here's my analysis of the problem:

Great post Dan! I pretty much have been following your advice.
However,
I've never run a marathon with a bottle pack. I've used a 2-bottle
pack for
the 3 ultras that I've done, but have always counted on aid stations
for
marathons.

I've purchased this http://tinyurl.com/38xr5d.I've tried it on a few
long
runs. A very comfortable pack. For me, it doesn't work well for self-
aided
long runs, unless I can stash fluids or loop back, but seems like it
would
be perfect for a marathon, as you described.

> In my case, I need about 4 oz/mile in mild 68F weather at race pace.
> Less if cooler, a lot more if warm.

Very similar for me. In mild weather about 12 oz every 2.5 to 3 miles.
In
hot weather about 12 oz every 2 miles.

> It's fun, in an evil way, hearing them straining to catch up to me
> after I've blown through 2/3 of the aid stations while they have to
> walk for a few seconds and drink. I can refill in the time it takes
> most people to drink a cup.

Evil fun. Sounds good to me. ;-)

--
Phil M.