07 Apr 2004 18:17:04
Sultan
Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?

Chris Adams
Andrew Flintoff
Ian Harvey
Gary Kirsten
Graeme Smith.

http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/APR/118214_COL-INTERVIEW_07APR2004.html

Least they got the cover right.


Sultan




07 Apr 2004 18:53:44
Ben Gussey
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

"Sultan" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?
>
> Chris Adams
> Andrew Flintoff
> Ian Harvey
> Gary Kirsten
> Graeme Smith.
>
>
http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/APR/118214_COL-INTERVIEW_07APR2004.html
>
> Least they got the cover right.
>
>
> Sultan

Cause they don't normally choose players twice and all the good players have
been taken?

I actually imagine he must have had a good county season, as wisden is an
English publication. But I have no idea if that's actually the reason - just
a guess.

Regards,
Ben.




07 Apr 2004 18:56:40
Sultan
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

"Ben Gussey" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Sultan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?
> >
> > Chris Adams
> > Andrew Flintoff
> > Ian Harvey
> > Gary Kirsten
> > Graeme Smith.
> >
> >
>
http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/APR/118214_COL-INTERVIEW_07APR2004.html
> >
> > Least they got the cover right.
> >
> >
> > Sultan
>
> Cause they don't normally choose players twice and all the good players
> have been taken?
>
> I actually imagine he must have had a good county season, as wisden is an
> English publication. But I have no idea if that's actually the reason -
> just a guess.

Guess so. What other reason is left?

Sultan




07 Apr 2004 09:59:38
Mike Holmans
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:17:04 +1000, "Sultan"
<[email protected] > tapped the keyboard and brought forth:

>What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?
>
>Chris Adams
>Andrew Flintoff
>Ian Harvey
>Gary Kirsten
>Graeme Smith.

As Engel apparently said, they have reverted to focusing on the
English season, and Harvey has been the best one-day player in English
cricket for several years now.

Cheers,

Mike



07 Apr 2004 09:16:35
Cicero
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?


"Mike Holmans" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:17:04 +1000, "Sultan"
> <[email protected]> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>
> >What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?
> >
> >Chris Adams
> >Andrew Flintoff
> >Ian Harvey
> >Gary Kirsten
> >Graeme Smith.
>
> As Engel apparently said, they have reverted to focusing on the
> English season, and Harvey has been the best one-day player in English
> cricket for several years now.

That is really frightening. Firstly that Wisden ignores the rest of the
world, secondly that they place emphasis on limited over cricket, and
thirdly that 'useful' cricketers are cricketers of the year.

But that aside, I thought Smith would have been selected for his Test
performances.

Also, I know Mike has said that Harvey has been a good player for several
years, but isn't this player of the 'year'?




07 Apr 2004 09:11:25
Des Small
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

"Sultan" <[email protected] > writes:

> What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?

He's brought an awful lot of silverware to Bristol over the last few
years.

Des
--
"[T]he structural trend in linguistics which took root with the
International Congresses of the twenties and early thirties [...] had
close and effective connections with phenomenology in its Husserlian
and Hegelian versions." -- Roman Jakobson


07 Apr 2004 10:29:43
Mike Holmans
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:16:35 GMT, "Cicero"
<moofie53HJU&^*(@bigpond.net.au > tapped the keyboard and brought
forth:


>Also, I know Mike has said that Harvey has been a good player for several
>years, but isn't this player of the 'year'?

As usual, the people who don't read Wisden come out of the woodwork at
this time of year to prove that they don't and then make a comment
from a position of complete ignorance.

It is Five Cricketers-Who-Have-Not-Previously-Been-Done-And-Whose-
Achievements-In-Their-Career-So-Far-Make-Them-Worthy-Of-A-Permanent
Portrait-In-Wisden-And-Did-Enough-In-The-English-Season-Just-Gone-To
Provide-A-Hook-For-This Of The Year, but they usually don't bother to
write it out in full.

Cheers,

Mike





07 Apr 2004 19:56:56
Gene Mean
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?


"Mike Holmans" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:17:04 +1000, "Sultan"
> <[email protected]> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>
> >What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?
> >
> >Chris Adams
> >Andrew Flintoff
> >Ian Harvey
> >Gary Kirsten
> >Graeme Smith.
>
> As Engel apparently said, they have reverted to focusing on the
> English season, and Harvey has been the best one-day player in English
> cricket for several years now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>

Wisden lost the plot years ago when they rated W.G. Grace ahead of Bradman.
I don't think they watch much cricket outside of England.




07 Apr 2004 10:04:53
Cicero
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?


"Mike Holmans" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:16:35 GMT, "Cicero"
> <moofie53HJU&^*(@bigpond.net.au> tapped the keyboard and brought
> forth:
>
>
> >Also, I know Mike has said that Harvey has been a good player for several
> >years, but isn't this player of the 'year'?
>
> As usual, the people who don't read Wisden come out of the woodwork at
> this time of year to prove that they don't and then make a comment
> from a position of complete ignorance.
>
> It is Five Cricketers-Who-Have-Not-Previously-Been-Done-And-Whose-
> Achievements-In-Their-Career-So-Far-Make-Them-Worthy-Of-A-Permanent
> Portrait-In-Wisden-And-Did-Enough-In-The-English-Season-Just-Gone-To
> Provide-A-Hook-For-This Of The Year, but they usually don't bother to
> write it out in full.

Thanks for your gracious reply. You have proved what a pompous twit you can
be.




07 Apr 2004 11:27:19
John Hall
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

In article <[email protected] >,
Cicero <moofie53HJU&^*@?.?.invalid > writes:
>"Mike Holmans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:17:04 +1000, "Sultan"
>> <[email protected]> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>>
>> >What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?
>> >
>> >Chris Adams
>> >Andrew Flintoff
>> >Ian Harvey
>> >Gary Kirsten
>> >Graeme Smith.
>>
>> As Engel apparently said, they have reverted to focusing on the
>> English season, and Harvey has been the best one-day player in English
>> cricket for several years now.
>
>That is really frightening. Firstly that Wisden ignores the rest of the
>world, secondly that they place emphasis on limited over cricket, and
>thirdly that 'useful' cricketers are cricketers of the year.
>
>But that aside, I thought Smith would have been selected for his Test
>performances.

He was. Did you not see his name in the list quoted above? Or did you
become so fixated on Harvey that you overlooked the other four
selections?

<snip >
--
John Hall "George the Third
Ought never to have occurred.
One can only wonder
At so grotesque a blunder." E.C.Bentley (1875-1956)


07 Apr 2004 11:32:06
John Hall
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

In article <[email protected] >,
Gene Mean <[email protected] > writes:
>Wisden lost the plot years ago when they rated W.G. Grace ahead of Bradman.

Can you give a reference for that, as I don't recall it?

>I don't think they watch much cricket outside of England.

The selection of the Five Cricketers of the Year is the Editor's choice,
so it's not a question of "they". Wisden includes excellent coverage of
cricket outside of England, but the Cricketers of the Year has
traditionally always tended to concentrate on cricket played in England.
Since it's an English publication, there's a case to be made for such a
policy.
--
John Hall "George the Third
Ought never to have occurred.
One can only wonder
At so grotesque a blunder." E.C.Bentley (1875-1956)


07 Apr 2004 22:49:55
Andrew Dunford
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?


"John Hall" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Gene Mean <[email protected]> writes:
> >Wisden lost the plot years ago when they rated W.G. Grace ahead of
Bradman.
>
> Can you give a reference for that, as I don't recall it?
>
> >I don't think they watch much cricket outside of England.
>
> The selection of the Five Cricketers of the Year is the Editor's choice,
> so it's not a question of "they". Wisden includes excellent coverage of
> cricket outside of England, but the Cricketers of the Year has
> traditionally always tended to concentrate on cricket played in England.
> Since it's an English publication, there's a case to be made for such a
> policy.

For those who want an alternative viewopint there's always Wisden Australia
(the one with the green cover).

Andrew




07 Apr 2004 10:49:47
Cicero
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?


"John Hall" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Cicero <moofie53HJU&^*@?.?.invalid> writes:
> >"Mike Holmans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]
> >> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:17:04 +1000, "Sultan"
> >> <[email protected]> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
> >>
> >> >What in the 'eck is 'arvey doing in there?
> >> >
> >> >Chris Adams
> >> >Andrew Flintoff
> >> >Ian Harvey
> >> >Gary Kirsten
> >> >Graeme Smith.
> >>
> >> As Engel apparently said, they have reverted to focusing on the
> >> English season, and Harvey has been the best one-day player in English
> >> cricket for several years now.
> >
> >That is really frightening. Firstly that Wisden ignores the rest of the
> >world, secondly that they place emphasis on limited over cricket, and
> >thirdly that 'useful' cricketers are cricketers of the year.
> >
> >But that aside, I thought Smith would have been selected for his Test
> >performances.
>
> He was. Did you not see his name in the list quoted above? Or did you
> become so fixated on Harvey that you overlooked the other four
> selections?

I have no fixation with Harvey. I was asking in the context of others
suggesting that a lot of the selection criteria was based around English
cricket. As he was selected outside that (seemingly) it seemed
contradictory.




07 Apr 2004 11:41:35
Colin Kynoch
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 10:29:43 +0100, Mike Holmans
<[email protected] > parted their butt cheeks and let rip with
this:

>On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:16:35 GMT, "Cicero"
><moofie53HJU&^*(@bigpond.net.au> tapped the keyboard and brought
>forth:
>
>
>>Also, I know Mike has said that Harvey has been a good player for several
>>years, but isn't this player of the 'year'?
>
>As usual, the people who don't read Wisden come out of the woodwork at
>this time of year to prove that they don't and then make a comment
>from a position of complete ignorance.
>
>It is Five Cricketers-Who-Have-Not-Previously-Been-Done-And-Whose-
>Achievements-In-Their-Career-So-Far-Make-Them-Worthy-Of-A-Permanent
>Portrait-In-Wisden-And-Did-Enough-In-The-English-Season-Just-Gone-To
>Provide-A-Hook-For-This Of The Year, but they usually don't bother to
>write it out in full.

But we know that there has been at least one cricketer to get two
WCOTY Gongs don't we Mike?

Colin Kynoch


07 Apr 2004 06:43:09
Pervez P Masud
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

"Andrew Dunford" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<t1Rcc.7389$u%[email protected]>...
> "John Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Gene Mean <[email protected]> writes:
> > >Wisden lost the plot years ago when they rated W.G. Grace ahead of
> Bradman.
> >
> > Can you give a reference for that, as I don't recall it?
> >
> > >I don't think they watch much cricket outside of England.
> >
> > The selection of the Five Cricketers of the Year is the Editor's choice,
> > so it's not a question of "they". Wisden includes excellent coverage of
> > cricket outside of England, but the Cricketers of the Year has
> > traditionally always tended to concentrate on cricket played in England.
> > Since it's an English publication, there's a case to be made for such a
> > policy.
>
> For those who want an alternative viewopint there's always Wisden Australia
> (the one with the green cover).
>
LOL. Andrew, this has to be one of your best line, You made my day
(the one with the green cover)LMAO.

Cheers,
Peter


07 Apr 2004 13:24:39
Michael Seth
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?



Colin Kynoch wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 10:29:43 +0100, Mike Holmans
><[email protected]> parted their butt cheeks and let rip with
>this:
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:16:35 GMT, "Cicero"
>><moofie53HJU&^*(@bigpond.net.au> tapped the keyboard and brought
>>forth:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Also, I know Mike has said that Harvey has been a good player for several
>>>years, but isn't this player of the 'year'?
>>>
>>>
>>As usual, the people who don't read Wisden come out of the woodwork at
>>this time of year to prove that they don't and then make a comment
>>
>>
>>from a position of complete ignorance.
>
>
>>It is Five Cricketers-Who-Have-Not-Previously-Been-Done-And-Whose-
>>Achievements-In-Their-Career-So-Far-Make-Them-Worthy-Of-A-Permanent
>>Portrait-In-Wisden-And-Did-Enough-In-The-English-Season-Just-Gone-To
>>Provide-A-Hook-For-This Of The Year, but they usually don't bother to
>>write it out in full.
>>
>>
>
>But we know that there has been at least one cricketer to get two
>WCOTY Gongs don't we Mike?
>
IIRC, the current form (5 players, only get picked once) has only been
in place for 60 or 70
years so I would imagine that those who were interested would have had
time to check it
out. I believe that Jack Hobbs won it a couple of times and may have
been one of the
last recipients before the format was changed. Was it one or two players
before?

Michael



07 Apr 2004 13:29:07
Michael Seth
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?



Cicero wrote:

>"John Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>> Cicero <moofie53HJU&^*@?.?.invalid> writes:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>But that aside, I thought Smith would have been selected for his Test
>>>performances.
>>>
>>>
>>He was. Did you not see his name in the list quoted above? Or did you
>>become so fixated on Harvey that you overlooked the other four
>>selections?
>>
>>
>
>I have no fixation with Harvey. I was asking in the context of others
>suggesting that a lot of the selection criteria was based around English
>cricket. As he was selected outside that (seemingly) it seemed
>contradictory
>
Last time I looked, Smith played in England in 2003, scored quite a few runs
and was captain of the touring team. Strikes me as having had some
influence on English
cricket. Touring players are not excluded. The 1948 Australians provided
all 5 of
the POTY. It's actually rather charitable of Wisden to do so. The
equivalent NZ
publication only allows kiwis to be POTY. I'll check my Australian and
South African
books at home to see what they do.

Michael



07 Apr 2004 21:01:10
John Hall
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

In article <[email protected] >,
Michael Seth <[email protected] > writes:
>
>
>Colin Kynoch wrote:
>>
>>But we know that there has been at least one cricketer to get two
>>WCOTY Gongs don't we Mike?
>>
>IIRC, the current form (5 players, only get picked once) has only been
>in place for 60 or 70
>years so I would imagine that those who were interested would have had
>time to check it
>out.

Rather longer than that. In fact it's been the normal rule ever since
the feature started, somewhere round about 1889. But they made an
exception for Hobbs. IIRC, this was in the 1926 edition, to mark his
completion of 100 centuries in 1925. The regular CotY feature was
dropped, in favour of just having a piece about Hobbs.
--
John Hall
"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come
sit next to me."
Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)


07 Apr 2004 21:40:59
Mike Holmans
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:01:10 +0100, John Hall
<[email protected] > tapped the keyboard and brought forth:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Michael Seth <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>
>>Colin Kynoch wrote:
>>>
>>>But we know that there has been at least one cricketer to get two
>>>WCOTY Gongs don't we Mike?
>>>
>>IIRC, the current form (5 players, only get picked once) has only been
>>in place for 60 or 70
>>years so I would imagine that those who were interested would have had
>>time to check it
>>out.
>
>Rather longer than that. In fact it's been the normal rule ever since
>the feature started, somewhere round about 1889. But they made an
>exception for Hobbs. IIRC, this was in the 1926 edition, to mark his
>completion of 100 centuries in 1925. The regular CotY feature was
>dropped, in favour of just having a piece about Hobbs.

Correct.

They didn't make APF Chapman a CY even though he captained England to
a 4-1 Ashes win in Australia because he had already been one in 1919
when they did portraits of school cricketers, there being no grown-up
cricket happening in 1918 on account of some disturbances in Belgium.

Cheers,

Mike



08 Apr 2004 11:10:20
Andrew Dunford
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?


"Pervez P Masud" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Andrew Dunford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<t1Rcc.7389$u%[email protected] >...
> > "John Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > Gene Mean <[email protected]> writes:
> > > >Wisden lost the plot years ago when they rated W.G. Grace ahead of
> > Bradman.
> > >
> > > Can you give a reference for that, as I don't recall it?
> > >
> > > >I don't think they watch much cricket outside of England.
> > >
> > > The selection of the Five Cricketers of the Year is the Editor's
choice,
> > > so it's not a question of "they". Wisden includes excellent coverage
of
> > > cricket outside of England, but the Cricketers of the Year has
> > > traditionally always tended to concentrate on cricket played in
England.
> > > Since it's an English publication, there's a case to be made for such
a
> > > policy.
> >
> > For those who want an alternative viewopint there's always Wisden
Australia
> > (the one with the green cover).
> >
> LOL. Andrew, this has to be one of your best line, You made my day
> (the one with the green cover)LMAO.

Each to their own, I suppose. Here is a link to a photograph of said dust
jacket:

http://shop.cricinfo.com/exec/cricshop/000553.html?mv_pc=159

I'm more interested in finding out about this "alternative viewopint". I'm
all for having a drink whilst watching the cricket, but hope it is served in
the sort of glass which looks half-full rather than half-empty.

Andrew [looking through a glass darkly]




07 Apr 2004 23:04:52
Bob Dubery
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

"Cicero" <moofie53HJU&^*(@bigpond.net.au > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I have no fixation with Harvey. I was asking in the context of others
> suggesting that a lot of the selection criteria was based around English
> cricket. As he was selected outside that (seemingly) it seemed
> contradictory.
Given the runs he got in England and particularly at Lord's it's not
contradictory at all.

I was surprised he didn't get it earlier - grassing on the Aussies
should have put him on the short list.


08 Apr 2004 21:28:55
alvey
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

Sultan wrote:


Wisden has been an anachronism to world cricket for at least the last
20 years. Don't worry about it. Few do.



08 Apr 2004 12:48:38
Paul Robson
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

alvey wrote:
> Sultan wrote:
>
>
> Wisden has been an anachronism to world cricket for at least the last
> 20 years. Don't worry about it. Few do.

According to this morning's paper it is specifically judged on performances
in England.




08 Apr 2004 07:41:02
Moby
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

"Cicero" <moofie53HJU&^*(@bigpond.net.au > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Mike Holmans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:16:35 GMT, "Cicero"
> > <moofie53HJU&^*(@bigpond.net.au> tapped the keyboard and brought
> > forth:
> >
> >
> > >Also, I know Mike has said that Harvey has been a good player for several
> > >years, but isn't this player of the 'year'?
> >
> > As usual, the people who don't read Wisden come out of the woodwork at
> > this time of year to prove that they don't and then make a comment
> > from a position of complete ignorance.
> >
> > It is Five Cricketers-Who-Have-Not-Previously-Been-Done-And-Whose-
> > Achievements-In-Their-Career-So-Far-Make-Them-Worthy-Of-A-Permanent
> > Portrait-In-Wisden-And-Did-Enough-In-The-English-Season-Just-Gone-To
> > Provide-A-Hook-For-This Of The Year, but they usually don't bother to
> > write it out in full.
>
> Thanks for your gracious reply. You have proved what a pompous twit you can
> be.

It's a fair enough comment though, Terry. Anyone who's actually read
it knows that it was cricketers who had the most effect on the Egnlish
season.'

Moby


09 Apr 2004 07:26:08
alvey
Re: Wisden Cricketers of the Year - surely they jest?

Paul Robson wrote:
> alvey wrote:
>
>>Sultan wrote:
>>
>>
>>Wisden has been an anachronism to world cricket for at least the last
>>20 years. Don't worry about it. Few do.
>
>
> According to this morning's paper it is specifically judged on performances
> in England.
>

No problems with that. The problem is when it's referred to as
"Cricket's Bible". "Cricket's Book of the Dead" more like it.



alvey
in brisbane, tired after a big night of sacrificing animals and
cavorting naked with witches. (QCC AGM last night)