31 Jul 2004 14:18:39
Martin Basterfield
Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison), with
the promise of more to come.

Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back in
April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
30 test wickets for the summer.

This makes me wonder when the last time was an England spinner
achieved such a feat? Underwood would be an obvious candidate of
course, but not too many other names spring to mind?

Martin


01 Aug 2004 06:02:28
Robert Henderson
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

In article <13240889.0407311318.5a027062@posting.google.com >, Martin
Basterfield <mpb999@cheerful.com > writes
>Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
>than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
>average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
>second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison), with
>the promise of more to come.
>
>Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
>performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back in
>April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
>30 test wickets for the summer.
>
>This makes me wonder when the last time was an England spinner
>achieved such a feat? Underwood would be an obvious candidate of
>course, but not too many other names spring to mind?
>

A spinner taking more than twenty wickets in five Tests in a single
summer in England is a very rare thing. Even in the spin friendly 1950s
only Laker (46 wickets in 1956) Wardle and Lock managed it in home
series and I am pretty sure that only Underwood did it subsequently.

I think the last occasion before Giles must be Underwood in the
seventies . Nick Cook took 8 wickets on debut at Lords in the early
eighties. Might be worth looking at what he did in that year.

>Martin

--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 Aug 2004 08:45:31
David North
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:jDVCsUAklHDBFwyH@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <13240889.0407311318.5a027062@posting.google.com>, Martin
> Basterfield <mpb999@cheerful.com> writes
> >Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
> >than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
> >average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
> >second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison), with
> >the promise of more to come.
> >
> >Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
> >performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back in
> >April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
> >30 test wickets for the summer.
> >
> >This makes me wonder when the last time was an England spinner
> >achieved such a feat? Underwood would be an obvious candidate of
> >course, but not too many other names spring to mind?
> >
>
> A spinner taking more than twenty wickets in five Tests in a single
> summer in England is a very rare thing. Even in the spin friendly 1950s
> only Laker (46 wickets in 1956) Wardle and Lock managed it in home
> series and I am pretty sure that only Underwood did it subsequently.
>
> I think the last occasion before Giles must be Underwood in the
> seventies . Nick Cook took 8 wickets on debut at Lords in the early
> eighties. Might be worth looking at what he did in that year.

17

Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and Underwood in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




01 Aug 2004 15:05:53
Andrew Bull
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

David North wrote in message <2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de >...
>"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> I think the last occasion before Giles must be Underwood in the
>> seventies . Nick Cook took 8 wickets on debut at Lords in the early
>> eighties. Might be worth looking at what he did in that year.
>
>17


To be fair to Cook, that was in 2 tests (v NZ, 1983).




01 Aug 2004 09:59:27
Martin Basterfield
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

"David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk > wrote in message news:<2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and Underwood in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
> The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.

So my hunch about Underwood was correct then. I didn't realise that
Tufnell took as many as 21 in 1991, indeed I seem to recall him only
playing in the final two tests of the summer.

Martin


01 Aug 2004 10:06:16
Martin Basterfield
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

mpb999@cheerful.com (Martin Basterfield) wrote in message news:<13240889.0407311318.5a027062@posting.google.com >...
> Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
> than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
> average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
> second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison), with
> the promise of more to come.
>
> Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
> performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back in
> April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
> 30 test wickets for the summer.
>
> This makes me wonder when the last time was an England spinner
> achieved such a feat? Underwood would be an obvious candidate of
> course, but not too many other names spring to mind?
>
> Martin

Better make that 27 wickets now!! Well done to the King Of Spain!!

Giles certainly looks on course to break the 30 wickets barrier now,
especially with the next test at spin-friendly Old Trafford. I would
imagine he'll be bowling in tandem with a second spinner there,
presumably one of Batty, Dawson, or perhaps Graeme Swann.

Martin


01 Aug 2004 18:21:09
John Hall
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

In article <13240889.0408010906.234944d9@posting.google.com >,
Martin Basterfield <mpb999@cheerful.com > writes:
>Giles certainly looks on course to break the 30 wickets barrier now,
>especially with the next test at spin-friendly Old Trafford. I would
>imagine he'll be bowling in tandem with a second spinner there,
>presumably one of Batty, Dawson, or perhaps Graeme Swann.

I doubt it. The sad thing is that there isn't a second spinner worth
picking. Even so, if Flintoff could be relied on to be fit enough to
bowl a full quota of overs as third seamer, they might feel able to omit
Anderson in favour of a spinner. It would be nice to think that Vaughan
could benefit from Gayle's example and bowl himself more, though. He's
potentially a very respectable off-spinner.
--
John Hall
"One half of the world cannot understand
the pleasures of the other."
From "Emma" by Jane Austen (1775-1817)


01 Aug 2004 20:07:58
David Lewis
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"Martin Basterfield" <mpb999@cheerful.com > wrote in message
news:13240889.0408010859.3499327c@posting.google.com...
> "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de >...
> > Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and
Underwood in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
> > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
>
> So my hunch about Underwood was correct then. I didn't realise that
> Tufnell took as many as 21 in 1991, indeed I seem to recall him only
> playing in the final two tests of the summer.
>
> Martin

I think you're right, but it's easily forgotten he did well against SL after
his more famous exploits against WI at the Oval. Still, 21 wickets
surprises me too. From memory, he didn't do much in the WI second innings,
so he really must have gone to town against Sri Lanka.

Cheers

David




01 Aug 2004 20:35:15
Mark Banfield
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:07:58 +0100, "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk > wrote:

>
>"Martin Basterfield" <mpb999@cheerful.com> wrote in message
>news:13240889.0408010859.3499327c@posting.google.com...
>> "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:<2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de>...
>> > Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and
>Underwood in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
>> > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
>>
>> So my hunch about Underwood was correct then. I didn't realise that
>> Tufnell took as many as 21 in 1991, indeed I seem to recall him only
>> playing in the final two tests of the summer.
>>
>> Martin
>
>I think you're right, but it's easily forgotten he did well against SL after
>his more famous exploits against WI at the Oval. Still, 21 wickets
>surprises me too. From memory, he didn't do much in the WI second innings,
>so he really must have gone to town against Sri Lanka.
>

In fact, David (North) seems to be including 9 wickets in the last 3 Tests of
the 1990-91 Ashes series in Tufnell's total for 1991. Technically correct I
suppose, but not really part of the English summer ?


01 Aug 2004 20:55:52
David Lewis
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"Mark Banfield" <aocg00@xtreme.pipex.net > wrote in message
news:55hqg0l67vdem5ibkn79jbhfu109pillm8@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:07:58 +0100, "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> >
> >"Martin Basterfield" <mpb999@cheerful.com> wrote in message
> >news:13240889.0408010859.3499327c@posting.google.com...
> >> "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:<2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> >> > Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and
> >Underwood in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
> >> > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> >>
> >> So my hunch about Underwood was correct then. I didn't realise that
> >> Tufnell took as many as 21 in 1991, indeed I seem to recall him only
> >> playing in the final two tests of the summer.
> >>
> >> Martin
> >
> >I think you're right, but it's easily forgotten he did well against SL
after
> >his more famous exploits against WI at the Oval. Still, 21 wickets
> >surprises me too. From memory, he didn't do much in the WI second
innings,
> >so he really must have gone to town against Sri Lanka.
> >
>
> In fact, David (North) seems to be including 9 wickets in the last 3 Tests
of
> the 1990-91 Ashes series in Tufnell's total for 1991. Technically correct
I
> suppose, but not really part of the English summer ?

That would explain it. And you're right, the thread was originally about
wickets taken in an English summer.

David




02 Aug 2004 10:27:00
Andrew Dunford
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"Mark Banfield" <aocg00@xtreme.pipex.net > wrote in message
news:55hqg0l67vdem5ibkn79jbhfu109pillm8@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:07:58 +0100, "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> >
> >"Martin Basterfield" <mpb999@cheerful.com> wrote in message
> >news:13240889.0408010859.3499327c@posting.google.com...
> >> "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:<2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> >> > Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and
> >Underwood in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
> >> > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> >>
> >> So my hunch about Underwood was correct then. I didn't realise that
> >> Tufnell took as many as 21 in 1991, indeed I seem to recall him only
> >> playing in the final two tests of the summer.
> >>
> >> Martin
> >
> >I think you're right, but it's easily forgotten he did well against SL
after
> >his more famous exploits against WI at the Oval. Still, 21 wickets
> >surprises me too. From memory, he didn't do much in the WI second
innings,
> >so he really must have gone to town against Sri Lanka.
> >
>
> In fact, David (North) seems to be including 9 wickets in the last 3 Tests
of
> the 1990-91 Ashes series in Tufnell's total for 1991. Technically correct
I
> suppose, but not really part of the English summer ?

Put it down to global warming.

Andrew




02 Aug 2004 06:09:36
Robert Henderson
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

In article <2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de >, David North <dnorth@abbeymano
r.fsbusiness.co.uk > writes
>> only Laker (46 wickets in 1956) Wardle and Lock managed it in home
>> series and I am pretty sure that only Underwood did it subsequently.
>>
>> I think the last occasion before Giles must be Underwood in the
>> seventies . Nick Cook took 8 wickets on debut at Lords in the early
>> eighties. Might be worth looking at what he did in that year.
>
>17
>
>Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and Underwood in
>1974, both in 6 Tests.
>The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.

Managed to find two other post war examples, Tattersall took 21 in a
five match series against SA in 1951 and Ray Illingworth 20 in a three
match series against India in 1967 plus a couple more against Pak the
same summer.

Between the wars, Tich Freeman twice (in successive summers) and Verity
are the only examples. Freeman was the only right arm slow bowler to do
it for England until Tattersall. RH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


02 Aug 2004 07:42:59
David North
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

"Mark Banfield" <aocg00@xtreme.pipex.net > wrote in message
news:55hqg0l67vdem5ibkn79jbhfu109pillm8@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 20:07:58 +0100, "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Martin Basterfield" <mpb999@cheerful.com> wrote in message
> >news:13240889.0408010859.3499327c@posting.google.com...
> >> "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:<2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> >> > Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and
> >Underwood in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
> >> > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> >>
> >> So my hunch about Underwood was correct then. I didn't realise that
> >> Tufnell took as many as 21 in 1991, indeed I seem to recall him only
> >> playing in the final two tests of the summer.
> >>
> >> Martin
> >
> >I think you're right, but it's easily forgotten he did well against SL after
> >his more famous exploits against WI at the Oval. Still, 21 wickets
> >surprises me too. From memory, he didn't do much in the WI second innings,
> >so he really must have gone to town against Sri Lanka.
> >
>
> In fact, David (North) seems to be including 9 wickets in the last 3 Tests of
> the 1990-91 Ashes series in Tufnell's total for 1991. Technically correct I
> suppose, but not really part of the English summer ?

Oops, sorry. I must have read the wrong line on Stats Guru. He took 12 in 2 Tests. The most he took
in an English season was 14 in 1999, in 4 Tests.

I've rechecked the stats for Hemmings and Underwood, and they were correct.

--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




02 Aug 2004 08:24:43
David North
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:zYY26LAQycDBFwhS@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de>, David North <dnorth@abbeymano
> r.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
> >> only Laker (46 wickets in 1956) Wardle and Lock managed it in home
> >> series and I am pretty sure that only Underwood did it subsequently.
> >>
> >> I think the last occasion before Giles must be Underwood in the
> >> seventies . Nick Cook took 8 wickets on debut at Lords in the early
> >> eighties. Might be worth looking at what he did in that year.
> >
> >17
> >
> >Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and Underwood in
> >1974, both in 6 Tests.
> >The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
>
> Managed to find two other post war examples, Tattersall took 21 in a
> five match series against SA in 1951 and Ray Illingworth 20 in a three
> match series against India in 1967 plus a couple more

3 actually

> against Pak the
> same summer.

Titmus took 23 in 6 Tests in 1965 - 15 v SA, 8 v NZ.


--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




02 Aug 2004 10:15:04
Martin Basterfield
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

John Hall <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk > wrote in message news:<EIRAg7DFaSDBFwGG@jhall.demon.co.uk>...
> I doubt it. The sad thing is that there isn't a second spinner worth
> picking.

Oh I don't know, I haven't entirely given up hope with Batty. He seems
to be having a pretty decent summer again for Worcs. Duncan Fletcher
has on more than one occasion said the Batty impressed him with his
competitive attitude during the winter.

The leading contender ought to be Keedy, especially since the next
test is on his home ground. But the fact that he shares a similiar
bowling style (SLA) to Giles undoubtedly counts against him, plus the
fact that he can't really bat.

Martin


02 Aug 2004 18:40:38
John Hall
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

In article <13240889.0408020915.125f1905@posting.google.com >,
Martin Basterfield <mpb999@cheerful.com > writes:
>The leading contender ought to be Keedy, especially since the next
>test is on his home ground. But the fact that he shares a similiar
>bowling style (SLA) to Giles undoubtedly counts against him, plus the
>fact that he can't really bat.

He seems to be able to keep an end up, having featured in several big
last wicket partnerships. I recall he helped Hooper put on over a
hundred against Surrey last year, turning the match.
--
John Hall

"Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes."
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)


02 Aug 2004 21:00:38
David Lewis
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"John Hall" <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk > wrote in message
news:zNldhGCWynDBFwRi@jhall.demon.co.uk...
> In article <13240889.0408020915.125f1905@posting.google.com>,
> Martin Basterfield <mpb999@cheerful.com> writes:
> >The leading contender ought to be Keedy, especially since the next
> >test is on his home ground. But the fact that he shares a similiar
> >bowling style (SLA) to Giles undoubtedly counts against him, plus the
> >fact that he can't really bat.
>
> He seems to be able to keep an end up, having featured in several big
> last wicket partnerships. I recall he helped Hooper put on over a
> hundred against Surrey last year, turning the match.
> --
> John Hall
>
I suppose if Keedy were to play as well as Giles and insetad of one of the
quicks his batting wouldn't be such as issue. But I'd prefer an offie, if
we were to play two spinners

Cheers

David




03 Aug 2004 12:01:14
Martin Basterfield
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

"David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk > wrote in message news:<cem6gv$c6g$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net>...
> I suppose if Keedy were to play as well as Giles and insetad of one of the
> quicks his batting wouldn't be such as issue. But I'd prefer an offie, if
> we were to play two spinners
>
> Cheers
>
> David

I still say it's a shame that Robert Croft elected to retire from
international cricket, he would have been a good pick for the next
one. Mind you, I seem to recall his performance in the equivalent
fixture four years ago as being pretty ordinary.

Martin


03 Aug 2004 20:17:45
David Lewis
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"Martin Basterfield" <mpb999@cheerful.com > wrote in message
news:13240889.0408031101.5863ef2@posting.google.com...
> "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<cem6gv$c6g$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net >...
> > I suppose if Keedy were to play as well as Giles and insetad of one of
the
> > quicks his batting wouldn't be such as issue. But I'd prefer an offie,
if
> > we were to play two spinners
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > David
>
> I still say it's a shame that Robert Croft elected to retire from
> international cricket, he would have been a good pick for the next
> one. Mind you, I seem to recall his performance in the equivalent
> fixture four years ago as being pretty ordinary.
>
> Martin

Yes it was. IIRC, Croft's performances on tour have been much better than
those in home tests. If Old Trafford really is the spinfest we're led to
believe, I wouldn't be unhappy to see Batty play, even if the WI batsmen
probably feel the same way. That being said, is it really so heavily
weighted towards the slow stuff there this season?

Cheers

David




04 Aug 2004 22:09:42
David Lewis
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk > wrote in message
news:2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de...
> "Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:jDVCsUAklHDBFwyH@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <13240889.0407311318.5a027062@posting.google.com>, Martin
> > Basterfield <mpb999@cheerful.com> writes
> > >Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
> > >than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
> > >average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
> > >second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison), with
> > >the promise of more to come.
> > >
> > >Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
> > >performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back in
> > >April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
> > >30 test wickets for the summer.
> > >
> > >This makes me wonder when the last time was an England spinner
> > >achieved such a feat? Underwood would be an obvious candidate of
> > >course, but not too many other names spring to mind?
> > >
> >
> > A spinner taking more than twenty wickets in five Tests in a single
> > summer in England is a very rare thing. Even in the spin friendly 1950s
> > only Laker (46 wickets in 1956) Wardle and Lock managed it in home
> > series and I am pretty sure that only Underwood did it subsequently.
> >
> > I think the last occasion before Giles must be Underwood in the
> > seventies . Nick Cook took 8 wickets on debut at Lords in the early
> > eighties. Might be worth looking at what he did in that year.
>
> 17
>
> Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and Underwood
in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
> The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> --
And in case anyone suggests that Underwood had it tougher than Giles, 24 of
his 30 were against NZ (sorry Andrew) and I'd be surprised if conditions
weren't substantially in his favour, although I must confess it was a little
before my time.

Cheers

David




05 Aug 2004 11:41:27
Andrew Dunford
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk > wrote in message
news:cerjah$3pk$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
>
> "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2n3lbqFs124oU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > "Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:jDVCsUAklHDBFwyH@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> > > In article <13240889.0407311318.5a027062@posting.google.com>, Martin
> > > Basterfield <mpb999@cheerful.com> writes
> > > >Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
> > > >than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
> > > >average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
> > > >second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison),
with
> > > >the promise of more to come.
> > > >
> > > >Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
> > > >performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back
in
> > > >April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
> > > >30 test wickets for the summer.
> > > >
> > > >This makes me wonder when the last time was an England spinner
> > > >achieved such a feat? Underwood would be an obvious candidate of
> > > >course, but not too many other names spring to mind?
> > > >
> > >
> > > A spinner taking more than twenty wickets in five Tests in a single
> > > summer in England is a very rare thing. Even in the spin friendly
1950s
> > > only Laker (46 wickets in 1956) Wardle and Lock managed it in home
> > > series and I am pretty sure that only Underwood did it subsequently.
> > >
> > > I think the last occasion before Giles must be Underwood in the
> > > seventies . Nick Cook took 8 wickets on debut at Lords in the early
> > > eighties. Might be worth looking at what he did in that year.
> >
> > 17
> >
> > Tufnell took 21 in 1991 in 5 Tests, as did Hemmings in 1990 and
Underwood
> in 1974, both in 6 Tests.
> > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> > --
> And in case anyone suggests that Underwood had it tougher than Giles, 24
of
> his 30 were against NZ (sorry Andrew) and I'd be surprised if conditions
> weren't substantially in his favour, although I must confess it was a
little
> before my time.

Underwood had two dominating performances against NZ in 1969, both in London
(11 wickets at Lord's and 12 at The Oval). Judging by the amount of bowling
done by Underwood, Illingworth and Hedley Howarth in both matches, one might
guess that indeed conditions were conducive to spin bowling.

Andrew




05 Aug 2004 10:08:44
David Lewis
Underwood, NZ and other random thoughts


"Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net > wrote in message
news:XueQc.1802$zS6.214121@news02.tsnz.net...
>
> "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cerjah$3pk$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
> >
> > "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message

> > > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> > > --


> > And in case anyone suggests that Underwood had it tougher than Giles, 24
> of
> > his 30 were against NZ (sorry Andrew) and I'd be surprised if conditions
> > weren't substantially in his favour, although I must confess it was a
> little
> > before my time.
>
> David


> Underwood had two dominating performances against NZ in 1969, both in
London
> (11 wickets at Lord's and 12 at The Oval). Judging by the amount of
bowling
> done by Underwood, Illingworth and Hedley Howarth in both matches, one
might
> guess that indeed conditions were conducive to spin bowling.
>
> Andrew
>

What struck me looking at the scorecards on Cricinfo was how similar the NZ
lineup in 1969 was to the one I remember from 1973 as most of the top 6 plus
the keeper featured in both tours. They look a very inexperienced side in
1969: quite the opposite to their English counterparts, so it's not
surprising they struggled.

I was also surprised when I first learnt that Underwood had been so
successful in 1969, as he rarely featured in the early 1970's when I first
watched the game. Obviously they unleashed him when conditions suited, but
in 1971 & 1972 he only played a couple of tests each year, which looks
surprising now.

Cheers

David




06 Aug 2004 12:07:24
Andrew Dunford
Re: Underwood, NZ and other random thoughts


"David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk > wrote in message
news:cester$k5m$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
>
> "Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net> wrote in message
> news:XueQc.1802$zS6.214121@news02.tsnz.net...
> >
> > "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:cerjah$3pk$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
> > >
> > > "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> > > > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> > > > --
>
>
> > > And in case anyone suggests that Underwood had it tougher than Giles,
24
> > of
> > > his 30 were against NZ (sorry Andrew) and I'd be surprised if
conditions
> > > weren't substantially in his favour, although I must confess it was a
> > little
> > > before my time.
> >
> > David
>
>
> > Underwood had two dominating performances against NZ in 1969, both in
> London
> > (11 wickets at Lord's and 12 at The Oval). Judging by the amount of
> bowling
> > done by Underwood, Illingworth and Hedley Howarth in both matches, one
> might
> > guess that indeed conditions were conducive to spin bowling.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
>
> What struck me looking at the scorecards on Cricinfo was how similar the
NZ
> lineup in 1969 was to the one I remember from 1973 as most of the top 6
plus
> the keeper featured in both tours. They look a very inexperienced side in
> 1969: quite the opposite to their English counterparts, so it's not
> surprising they struggled.

Yes, although interesting the 1969 NZ side, having struggled so badly
against Underwood, then went straight on to Pakistan and India, where they
were the most successful NZ side ever to visit the sub-continent, winning
the series against Pakistan and being robbed of a series victory against
India when denied almost certain victory on the final day at Hyderabad when
the groundstaff were curiously reluctant to make the ground playable after a
downpour.

There followed a period of great stability in NZ selection, which was
reflected in the 1973 touring party to England containing no fewer than ten
players who had appeared in 1969, and of course they acquitted themselves
well overall (I'd love to have seen that pursuit of 479 at Trent Bridge).
The downside was that selection was also very conservative, which was
manifested in the Worcestershire batsman John Parker being preferred as
opener in the Test series (and failing miserably), when the party also
contained the dashing Rodney Redmond, scorer of a century and a fifty on his
only Test appearance immediately prior to the 1973 tour.

That team carried its good efforts over into 1973/74, when finally deemed
worthy of an official Test series against Australia, but gradually
unravelled with the premature retirement of Vic Pollard (who didn't play on
Sundays anyway - Sunday play was becoming increasingly prevalent), Bev
Congdon reaching the end of the line, the untimely death of Ken Wadsworth
and the self-imposed exile of Glenn Turner.

<snip >

Andrew




06 Aug 2004 07:58:51
David Lewis
Re: Underwood, NZ and other random thoughts


"Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net > wrote in message
news:lZzQc.1966$zS6.230980@news02.tsnz.net...
>
> "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cester$k5m$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
> >
> > "Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net> wrote in message
> > news:XueQc.1802$zS6.214121@news02.tsnz.net...
> > >
> > > "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:cerjah$3pk$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
> > > >
> > > > "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
> >
> > > > > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> > > > > --
> >
> >
> > > > And in case anyone suggests that Underwood had it tougher than
Giles,
> 24
> > > of
> > > > his 30 were against NZ (sorry Andrew) and I'd be surprised if
> conditions
> > > > weren't substantially in his favour, although I must confess it was
a
> > > little
> > > > before my time.
> > >
> > > David
> >
> >
> > > Underwood had two dominating performances against NZ in 1969, both in
> > London
> > > (11 wickets at Lord's and 12 at The Oval). Judging by the amount of
> > bowling
> > > done by Underwood, Illingworth and Hedley Howarth in both matches, one
> > might
> > > guess that indeed conditions were conducive to spin bowling.
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> >
> > What struck me looking at the scorecards on Cricinfo was how similar the
> NZ
> > lineup in 1969 was to the one I remember from 1973 as most of the top 6
> plus
> > the keeper featured in both tours. They look a very inexperienced side
in
> > 1969: quite the opposite to their English counterparts, so it's not
> > surprising they struggled.
>
> Yes, although interesting the 1969 NZ side, having struggled so badly
> against Underwood, then went straight on to Pakistan and India, where they
> were the most successful NZ side ever to visit the sub-continent, winning
> the series against Pakistan and being robbed of a series victory against
> India when denied almost certain victory on the final day at Hyderabad
when
> the groundstaff were curiously reluctant to make the ground playable after
a
> downpour.
>
> There followed a period of great stability in NZ selection, which was
> reflected in the 1973 touring party to England containing no fewer than
ten
> players who had appeared in 1969, and of course they acquitted themselves
> well overall (I'd love to have seen that pursuit of 479 at Trent Bridge).
> The downside was that selection was also very conservative, which was
> manifested in the Worcestershire batsman John Parker being preferred as
> opener in the Test series (and failing miserably), when the party also
> contained the dashing Rodney Redmond, scorer of a century and a fifty on
his
> only Test appearance immediately prior to the 1973 tour.
>

I remember the Trent Bridge Test quit well, especially the great partnership
between Amiss & Greig and how close NZ got to successfully chasing 479.
Didn't Wadsworth get a duff decision which proved crucial? With hindsight,
I realise that Notts were using a drop-in pitch, although I was unaware of
that at the time. Parker was the guy who didn't feature in 1969, and I
remember him doing not very much in 1973. Mind you, I don't think Turner
did either. Of course, you could have won at Lord's, but I vaguely remember
your fielders letting us off the hook


> That team carried its good efforts over into 1973/74, when finally deemed
> worthy of an official Test series against Australia, but gradually
> unravelled with the premature retirement of Vic Pollard (who didn't play
on
> Sundays anyway - Sunday play was becoming increasingly prevalent), Bev
> Congdon reaching the end of the line, the untimely death of Ken Wadsworth
> and the self-imposed exile of Glenn Turner.
>
I didn't know about Wadsworth's death. And why did Turner opt out?

Cheers

David




06 Aug 2004 23:26:06
Andrew Dunford
Re: Underwood, NZ and other random thoughts


"David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk > wrote in message
news:ceva7a$mq3$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
>
> "Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net> wrote in message
> news:lZzQc.1966$zS6.230980@news02.tsnz.net...
> >
> > "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:cester$k5m$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
> > >
> > > "Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net> wrote in message
> > > news:XueQc.1802$zS6.214121@news02.tsnz.net...
> > > >
> > > > "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > news:cerjah$3pk$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in
message
> > >
> > > > > > The last to take 30 was Underwood in 1969, in 5 Tests.
> > > > > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > > > And in case anyone suggests that Underwood had it tougher than
> Giles,
> > 24
> > > > of
> > > > > his 30 were against NZ (sorry Andrew) and I'd be surprised if
> > conditions
> > > > > weren't substantially in his favour, although I must confess it
was
> a
> > > > little
> > > > > before my time.
> > > >
> > > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > > Underwood had two dominating performances against NZ in 1969, both
in
> > > London
> > > > (11 wickets at Lord's and 12 at The Oval). Judging by the amount of
> > > bowling
> > > > done by Underwood, Illingworth and Hedley Howarth in both matches,
one
> > > might
> > > > guess that indeed conditions were conducive to spin bowling.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > >
> > > What struck me looking at the scorecards on Cricinfo was how similar
the
> > NZ
> > > lineup in 1969 was to the one I remember from 1973 as most of the top
6
> > plus
> > > the keeper featured in both tours. They look a very inexperienced side
> in
> > > 1969: quite the opposite to their English counterparts, so it's not
> > > surprising they struggled.
> >
> > Yes, although interesting the 1969 NZ side, having struggled so badly
> > against Underwood, then went straight on to Pakistan and India, where
they
> > were the most successful NZ side ever to visit the sub-continent,
winning
> > the series against Pakistan and being robbed of a series victory against
> > India when denied almost certain victory on the final day at Hyderabad
> when
> > the groundstaff were curiously reluctant to make the ground playable
after
> a
> > downpour.
> >
> > There followed a period of great stability in NZ selection, which was
> > reflected in the 1973 touring party to England containing no fewer than
> ten
> > players who had appeared in 1969, and of course they acquitted
themselves
> > well overall (I'd love to have seen that pursuit of 479 at Trent
Bridge).
> > The downside was that selection was also very conservative, which was
> > manifested in the Worcestershire batsman John Parker being preferred as
> > opener in the Test series (and failing miserably), when the party also
> > contained the dashing Rodney Redmond, scorer of a century and a fifty on
> his
> > only Test appearance immediately prior to the 1973 tour.
> >
>
> I remember the Trent Bridge Test quit well, especially the great
partnership
> between Amiss & Greig and how close NZ got to successfully chasing 479.
> Didn't Wadsworth get a duff decision which proved crucial?

I'm not aware of a duff decision, but at 402/5 chasing 479 they were in with
a decent chance, remarkably so given they were skittled for 97 in the first
dig. The batting after Wadsworth was capable enough, especially Bruce
Taylor, but it didn't happen, and Dayle Hadlee hitting his own wicket didn't
help matters much.

Referring back to a thread from a couple of weeks ago about Boycott running
out his partners, England's disastrous start in the innings featured Boycott
being run out by Amiss.

> With hindsight,
> I realise that Notts were using a drop-in pitch, although I was unaware of
> that at the time. Parker was the guy who didn't feature in 1969, and I
> remember him doing not very much in 1973.

Parker's career at Test level never amounted to much - he simply wasn't very
good.

> Mind you, I don't think Turner
> did either.

1969 was Turner Mk I, who had very few shots and was a limited, albeit
tenacious player, as he showed by carrying his bat at Lord's. By 1973
Turner Mk II had evolved under the tutelage of Billy Ibadulla. It was the
year he reached a thousand first-class runs before the end of May, but his
supply then dried up in the Test series.

> Of course, you could have won at Lord's, but I vaguely remember
> your fielders letting us off the hook

That's also true. On the final afternoon, England was 70 runs ahead with
only two wickets left and two hours remaining when Arnold arrived to join
Fletcher. Arnold was dropped third ball by Wadsworth before going on to
defy NZ for 90 minutes and save that match. One might say that the pay-back
finally arrived in 1996/97, when Astle and Morrison defied England at Eden
Park with that remarkable last-wicket partnership to deny England what
seemed a certain victory.

> > That team carried its good efforts over into 1973/74, when finally
deemed
> > worthy of an official Test series against Australia, but gradually
> > unravelled with the premature retirement of Vic Pollard (who didn't play
> on
> > Sundays anyway - Sunday play was becoming increasingly prevalent), Bev
> > Congdon reaching the end of the line, the untimely death of Ken
Wadsworth
> > and the self-imposed exile of Glenn Turner.
> >
> I didn't know about Wadsworth's death.

I had the pleasure of witnessing Wadsworth's final first-class innings, a
buccaneering 117 scored in the Shell Trophy Final in March 1976 (which
happened to be the first first-class match I attended). Five months later
he died of cancer at the age of 29.

> And why did Turner opt out?

Continual disagreement with the national board over money matters such as
who paid his airfares back to New Zealand each year after the English
season. He was plowing a lone furrow, being a professional amongst a team
of amateurs and an administration which was very 'old school'. Turner opted
out of international cricket in 1977 and didn't return until 1983, by which
time he was past his best.

Andrew




06 Aug 2004 17:20:41
David Lewis
Re: Underwood, NZ and other random thoughts


"Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net > wrote in message
news:FVJQc.2065$zS6.240858@news02.tsnz.net...
>
> "David Lewis" <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ceva7a$mq3$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net...
> >

> > I remember the Trent Bridge Test quit well, especially the great
> partnership
> > between Amiss & Greig and how close NZ got to successfully chasing 479.
> > Didn't Wadsworth get a duff decision which proved crucial?
>
> I'm not aware of a duff decision, but at 402/5 chasing 479 they were in
with
> a decent chance, remarkably so given they were skittled for 97 in the
first
> dig. The batting after Wadsworth was capable enough, especially Bruce
> Taylor, but it didn't happen, and Dayle Hadlee hitting his own wicket
didn't
> help matters much.
>
> Referring back to a thread from a couple of weeks ago about Boycott
running
> out his partners, England's disastrous start in the innings featured
Boycott
> being run out by Amiss.
>

I'd forgotten that. I do remember us being 23 for 4 in the 2nd innings, and
your 97ao first dig. For some reasons, the scores stuck in my mind, which I
suppose happens with the first few tests you follow, if they're remotely
memorable.

The other thing I remember from the 1973 series was Bev Congdon batting
pretty much forever - I think he made 2 scores of 170+ in the three tests.
I remember worrying that he'd do the same when he toured in 1978, but I
suspect he was past his best by then.

> > > That team carried its good efforts over into 1973/74, when finally
> deemed
> > > worthy of an official Test series against Australia, but gradually
> > > unravelled with the premature retirement of Vic Pollard (who didn't
play
> > on
> > > Sundays anyway - Sunday play was becoming increasingly prevalent), Bev
> > > Congdon reaching the end of the line, the untimely death of Ken
> Wadsworth
> > > and the self-imposed exile of Glenn Turner.
> > >
> > I didn't know about Wadsworth's death.
>
> I had the pleasure of witnessing Wadsworth's final first-class innings, a
> buccaneering 117 scored in the Shell Trophy Final in March 1976 (which
> happened to be the first first-class match I attended). Five months later
> he died of cancer at the age of 29.
>

That's awful. I had no idea.


Cheers

David




16 Aug 2004 10:19:53
Martin Basterfield
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting

mpb999@cheerful.com (Martin Basterfield) wrote in message news:<13240889.0407311318.5a027062@posting.google.com >...
> Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
> than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
> average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
> second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison), with
> the promise of more to come.
>
> Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
> performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back in
> April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
> 30 test wickets for the summer.
>
> Martin

Mission accomplished!

Ashley Giles test bowling stats for summer 2004 - 30 wickets @ 24.90 apiece.

Martin


16 Aug 2004 19:30:56
David Lewis
Re: Ashley Giles - 22 wickets and counting


"Martin Basterfield" <mpb999@cheerful.com > wrote in message
news:13240889.0408160919.78506bc3@posting.google.com...
> mpb999@cheerful.com (Martin Basterfield) wrote in message
news:<13240889.0407311318.5a027062@posting.google.com >...
> > Today's haul of 4/65 means that Ashley Giles has now snared no less
> > than 22 test wickets so far this summer, at a highly respectable
> > average of around 26 runs apiece. This makes him England's
> > second-leading wicket taker of the season (just behind Harmison), with
> > the promise of more to come.
> >
> > Not necessarily the stuff of legend, but nonetheless a fine
> > performance from a guy who many people were ready to write off back in
> > April. Indeed, at this rate he stands an excellent chance of breaking
> > 30 test wickets for the summer.
> >
> > Martin
>
> Mission accomplished!
>
> Ashley Giles test bowling stats for summer 2004 - 30 wickets @ 24.90
apiece.
>

Not bad, as he was averaging 60 in home tests before 2004.

Cheers

David