29 Jul 2004 11:33:38
Steve Hague
All- rounders.

I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
Procter, but there must have been others.
Steve Hague.




29 Jul 2004 11:44:18
Tom Boltwood
Re: All- rounders.



> From: "Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:33:38 +0100
> Subject: All- rounders.
>
> I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> Procter, but there must have been others.
> Steve Hague.
>
>
Well Flintoff touches 90 which I would say is fairly quick.



29 Jul 2004 11:25:43
John McLoughlin
Re: All- rounders.

richard hadlee
alan davidson


"Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk > wrote in message
news:ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> Procter, but there must have been others.
> Steve Hague.
>
>




29 Jul 2004 12:34:13
Steve Hague
Re: All- rounders.


"John McLoughlin" <dwilllco@bigpond.net.au > wrote in message
news:X85Oc.21595$K53.97@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> richard hadlee
> alan davidson
>

Alan Davidson was fast medium. I didn't see him, but Don Bradman reckoned
Wasim Akram was a yard quicker than him when comparing the two left arm pace
bowlers. Hadlee was express in the early part of his career, but I would
consider him to be a bowler who could bat rather than a genuine all-
rounder, my criterion being that the individual could have been selected
purely as a batsman or purely as a bowler.
Steve Hague.




29 Jul 2004 12:33:24
Bev A. Kupf
Re: All- rounders.

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:33:38 +0100,
Steve Hague (steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk) wrote:
> I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> Procter, but there must have been others.

Richard Hadlee.
--
Bev A. Kupf
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to lerne" -- Chaucer


29 Jul 2004 15:11:07
David Lewis
Re: All- rounders.


"Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk > wrote in message
news:ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> Procter, but there must have been others.
> Steve Hague.
>
Was Keith Miller genuinely quick?

There was also an Australian from the 1920's whose name escapes me. Gregory
maybe?

Cheers

David




29 Jul 2004 07:45:28
Colin Reed
Re: All- rounders.

Tom Boltwood <tom@boltwood.nospam > wrote in message news:<BD2E9391.27DC0%tom@boltwood.nospam>...
> > From: "Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk>
> > Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
> > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:33:38 +0100
> > Subject: All- rounders.
> >
> > I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> > produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> > Procter, but there must have been others.
> > Steve Hague.
> >
> >
> Well Flintoff touches 90 which I would say is fairly quick.

Craig White was bowling over 90 at his quickest. At one point he was
regularly faster than Gough, although he was still only described as
fast-medium.

Colin


29 Jul 2004 15:57:41
David North
Re: All- rounders.

"Colin Reed" <colin-reed@lineone.net > wrote in message
news:b363509b.0407290645.4c523f29@posting.google.com...
> Tom Boltwood <tom@boltwood.nospam> wrote in message news:<BD2E9391.27DC0%tom@boltwood.nospam>...
> > > From: "Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > Newsgroups: uk.sport.cricket
> > > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:33:38 +0100
> > > Subject: All- rounders.
> > >
> > > I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> > > produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> > > Procter, but there must have been others.
> > > Steve Hague.
> > >
> > >
> > Well Flintoff touches 90 which I would say is fairly quick.
>
> Craig White was bowling over 90 at his quickest. At one point he was
> regularly faster than Gough, although he was still only described as
> fast-medium.

Gough himself was claimed to be an all-rounder (though not in the genuine category) early in his
Test career.

However, while Flintoff, Gough and White are/were fast, none of them were ever express IMO.
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




29 Jul 2004 15:57:15
Dr A. N. Walker
Re: All- rounders.

In article <ceb12c$m31$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net >,
David Lewis <lewis@rmplc.co.uk > wrote:
>Was Keith Miller genuinely quick?

Oh yes. When he wanted to be. When fully pumped up, he
was faster and more dangerous than Lindwall, but Lindwall was far
more consistent. If Miller didn't want to bowl, he would quite
happily just toss the ball back to his captain, or else just turn
and run in from wherever the fancy took him, mixing slow stuff with
vicious bouncers.

In the decisive 4th Test in '54-55, England only needed
90-odd to win, but Miller was unplayable for a few overs, taking
three wickets and leading Hutton to say "T'b*****'s done for us",
or words to that effect [probably a Cardus apocryphal story, but
it was *very* tense to those of us listening through the crackles
of an ancient radio]. But the moment passed ....

--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
anw@maths.nott.ac.uk


29 Jul 2004 18:06:41
Matt
Re: All- rounders.


"Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk > wrote in message
news:ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> Procter, but there must have been others.
> Steve Hague.
>
>

Sir Learie Constantine




29 Jul 2004 18:08:28
Matt
Re: All- rounders.


"Matt" <nospam@nospam.net > wrote in message news:41092d5f$1_2@127.0.0.1...
>
> "Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> > produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> > Procter, but there must have been others.
> > Steve Hague.
> >
> >
>
> Sir Learie Constantine
>
>

Shaun Pollock was quick in his earlier days




29 Jul 2004 10:23:20
Redgary
Re: All- rounders.

"Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk > wrote in message news:<ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> Procter, but there must have been others.
> Steve Hague.

Jacques Kallis was bowling "faster than Devon Malcolm" around 1999,
and Mark Boucher reckons the spell he bowled against Sri Lanka in the
99 World Cup was the fastest bowling he's ever kept to (than includes
Allan Donald). Although Mark and Jacques are best buddies/roomies so I
wouldn't be surprised if that was worth a beer or two.

Keith Miller could also crank it up, and Clive Rice in his prime as
well (?)


29 Jul 2004 18:22:25
John Hall
Re: All- rounders.

In article <ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk >,
Steve Hague <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk > writes:
>I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
>produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
>Procter, but there must have been others.

Jack Gregory, Keith Miller, Wasim Akram.
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)


29 Jul 2004 18:28:51
Steve Hague
Re: All- rounders.


"Matt" <nospam@nospam.net > wrote in message news:41092dca_2@127.0.0.1...
>
> "Matt" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:41092d5f$1_2@127.0.0.1...
> >
> > "Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able
to
> > > produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and
Mike
> > > Procter, but there must have been others.
> > > Steve Hague.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Sir Learie Constantine
> >
> >
>
> Shaun Pollock was quick in his earlier days
>
I thought of Constantine, but do we know just how quick he was? I don't
think Shaun Pollock was ever express, and he has said so himself. I also
doubt whether he would ever have been selected just for his batting.
Steve Hague.




29 Jul 2004 19:36:45
David North
Re: All- rounders.

"Steve Hague" <steve.hague@ntlworld.com > wrote in message news:2msqemFqg4odU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Matt" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:41092dca_2@127.0.0.1...
> >
> > "Matt" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:41092d5f$1_2@127.0.0.1...
> > >
> > > "Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > > I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able
> to
> > > > produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and
> Mike
> > > > Procter, but there must have been others.
> > > > Steve Hague.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sir Learie Constantine
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Shaun Pollock was quick in his earlier days
> >
> I thought of Constantine, but do we know just how quick he was? I don't
> think Shaun Pollock was ever express, and he has said so himself. I also
> doubt whether he would ever have been selected just for his batting.

Would Procter, whose FC batting average wasn't much higher?

Heath Streak, on the other hand, probably would be good enough to make the Zimbabwe side as a
batsman, based on his form in the last few years, although again he was probably never more than
fast.
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




29 Jul 2004 19:32:46
David Lewis
Re: All- rounders.


"Dr A. N. Walker" <anw@maths.nott.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:ceb6or$c6o$1@oyez.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk...
> In article <ceb12c$m31$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net>,
> David Lewis <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:
> >Was Keith Miller genuinely quick?
>
> Oh yes. When he wanted to be. When fully pumped up, he
> was faster and more dangerous than Lindwall, but Lindwall was far
> more consistent. If Miller didn't want to bowl, he would quite
> happily just toss the ball back to his captain, or else just turn
> and run in from wherever the fancy took him, mixing slow stuff with
> vicious bouncers.
>
> In the decisive 4th Test in '54-55, England only needed
> 90-odd to win, but Miller was unplayable for a few overs, taking
> three wickets and leading Hutton to say "T'b*****'s done for us",
> or words to that effect [probably a Cardus apocryphal story, but
> it was *very* tense to those of us listening through the crackles
> of an ancient radio]. But the moment passed ....
>
Thanks Andy. Do you know about the Aus allrounder in the 1920's?

Cheers

David




29 Jul 2004 19:48:56
David North
Re: All- rounders.

"John Hall" <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk > wrote in message news:lIFIgyERJTCBFw6x@jhall.demon.co.uk...
> In article <ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Steve Hague <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> >produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> >Procter, but there must have been others.
>
> Jack Gregory, Keith Miller, Wasim Akram.

I think Steve's definition of a genuine all-rounder would exclude Wasim, although if we're being
realistic, the list of such all-rounder would be very short. For instance, how many Tests would
Kapil Dev have played if he couldn't bowl?
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




29 Jul 2004 19:55:45
John Hall
Re: All- rounders.

In article <2msuctFr64erU1@uni-berlin.de >,
David North <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk > writes:
>"Steve Hague" <steve.hague@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:2msqemFqg4odU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> >
>> I thought of Constantine, but do we know just how quick he was? I don't
>> think Shaun Pollock was ever express, and he has said so himself. I also
>> doubt whether he would ever have been selected just for his batting.
>
>Would Procter, whose FC batting average wasn't much higher?

Yes. It's a mistake to look at his career average, as in his early years
he was a bowler who batted a bit. But the mature Procter was certainly
good enough to be picked purely as a batsman.
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)


30 Jul 2004 05:44:21
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.


Depends what you mean by express. If just fast then you have Flintoff,
Jack Gregory, Keith Miller (the best of the lot in my book), Alan
Davidson, Mike Proctor, Richard Hadlee, Chris Cairns and Imran Khan.
The only ones worth a place as either batsman or bowler are Miller,
Gregory and Proctor. Flintoff may fall into that category in a year or
so. RH



30 Jul 2004 06:36:15
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.

In article <2ms5lnFq8prpU1@uni-berlin.de >, Steve Hague
<steve.hague@ntlworld.com > writes
>Alan Davidson was fast medium.

Definitely fast when he wanted to be. The greatest left arm quick in
history. Took 184 Test wickets at 20 apiece. Beautiful action. Also
bowled medium paced leg cutters. Exceptionally dangerous hitter (left
handed) when he got in. Genuine athlete and one of the safest catchers
you could ever see. One of my favourite cricketers. Definitely in my all
time Oz eleven which is:

Trumper
Lawry
Bradman
MacCartney
Chappell G
Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Lindwall
Warne
O'Reilly
RH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


30 Jul 2004 08:18:22
Steve Hague
Re: All- rounders.


"David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk > wrote in message
news:2msv3pFqvepiU1@uni-berlin.de...
> "John Hall" <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote in message
news:lIFIgyERJTCBFw6x@jhall.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > Steve Hague <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> > >I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> > >produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> > >Procter, but there must have been others.
> >
> > Jack Gregory, Keith Miller, Wasim Akram.
>
> I think Steve's definition of a genuine all-rounder would exclude Wasim,
although if we're being
> realistic, the list of such all-rounder would be very short. For instance,
how many Tests would
> Kapil Dev have played if he couldn't bowl?
> --
> David North
> Email to this address will be deleted as spam
> Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk

That's my point. The list would be very short, and Wasim certainly wouldn't
make it on two counts; although a great bowler he was not express, and there
is no way he would have been selected purely as a batsman.
Steve Hague.
>
>




30 Jul 2004 08:26:00
Steve Hague
Re: All- rounders.


"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:FJ0r+4AlIdCBFw$G@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
>
> Depends what you mean by express. If just fast then you have Flintoff,
> Jack Gregory, Keith Miller (the best of the lot in my book), Alan
> Davidson, Mike Proctor, Richard Hadlee, Chris Cairns and Imran Khan.
> The only ones worth a place as either batsman or bowler are Miller,
> Gregory and Proctor. Flintoff may fall into that category in a year or
> so. RH

I mean consistently 90mph+. Imran Khan played purely as a batsman for over a
year when stress fractures prevented him from bowling. Incidentally, I
wonder why both Sky and channel 4 designate Freddy as RFM although he is
quicker than Jones who they call RF.
Steve Hague.
>




30 Jul 2004 09:05:02
David Lewis
Re: All- rounders.


"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:9p+lWeAP5dCBFwaM@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <2ms5lnFq8prpU1@uni-berlin.de>, Steve Hague
> <steve.hague@ntlworld.com> writes
> >Alan Davidson was fast medium.
>
> Definitely fast when he wanted to be. The greatest left arm quick in
> history. Took 184 Test wickets at 20 apiece. Beautiful action. Also
> bowled medium paced leg cutters. Exceptionally dangerous hitter (left
> handed) when he got in. Genuine athlete and one of the safest catchers
> you could ever see. One of my favourite cricketers. Definitely in my all
> time Oz eleven which is:
>
> Trumper
> Lawry
> Bradman
> MacCartney
> Chappell G
> Miller
> Gilchrist
> Davidson
> Lindwall
> Warne
> O'Reilly
> RH

Interesting that you picked Gilchrist, given his quality or otherwise as a
keeper.

David




30 Jul 2004 08:17:16
Dean Jarratt
Re: All- rounders.

"Steve Hague" <steve@hague2687.freeserve.co.uk > wrote in news:ceajq7$73g$1
@news6.svr.pol.co.uk:

> I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> Procter, but there must have been others.
> Steve Hague.

I heard that Devon Malcolm scored a century the other day...in some form of
cricket. He was express pace.

Seriously though I remember Ian Botham bowling very quick in the 85 Ashes
series...I can remember Australian stumps flying, in the good old days when
cameras were at the back of the batsmen.


30 Jul 2004 12:06:05
David North
Re: All- rounders.

"Steve Hague" <steve.hague@ntlworld.com > wrote in message news:2mub21FqegpcU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2msv3pFqvepiU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > I think Steve's definition of a genuine all-rounder would exclude Wasim,
> although if we're being
> > realistic, the list of such all-rounder would be very short. For instance,
> how many Tests would
> > Kapil Dev have played if he couldn't bowl?
>
> That's my point. The list would be very short, and Wasim certainly wouldn't
> make it on two counts; although a great bowler he was not express, and there
> is no way he would have been selected purely as a batsman.

I meant that the list of genuine Test all-rounders, by your definition, would be very short,
regardless of bowling pace.

Given that the list of express bowlers is also short, regardless of batting ability, there are bound
to be very few indeed who make it onto both lists.
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




30 Jul 2004 23:14:46
Andrew Dunford
Re: All- rounders.


"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:9p+lWeAP5dCBFwaM@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <2ms5lnFq8prpU1@uni-berlin.de>, Steve Hague
> <steve.hague@ntlworld.com> writes
> >Alan Davidson was fast medium.
>
> Definitely fast when he wanted to be. The greatest left arm quick in
> history. Took 184 Test wickets at 20 apiece. Beautiful action. Also
> bowled medium paced leg cutters. Exceptionally dangerous hitter (left
> handed) when he got in. Genuine athlete and one of the safest catchers
> you could ever see. One of my favourite cricketers. Definitely in my all
> time Oz eleven which is:
>
> Trumper
> Lawry
> Bradman
> MacCartney
> Chappell G
> Miller
> Gilchrist
> Davidson
> Lindwall
> Warne
> O'Reilly
> RH

For such a patriotic Englishman, I'm a bit surprised to see you sneak
yourself into an Australian team as twelfth man.

Andrew




30 Jul 2004 11:20:40
Dr A. N. Walker
Re: All- rounders.

In article <cebgd4$vpv$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net >,
David Lewis <lewis@rmplc.co.uk > wrote:
>Thanks Andy. Do you know about the Aus allrounder in the 1920's?

No, I'm not *that* old. RH will no doubt give you his
memories of Gregory ....

--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
anw@maths.nott.ac.uk


30 Jul 2004 12:32:03
David North
Re: All- rounders.

"Steve Hague" <steve.hague@ntlworld.com > wrote in message news:2mubgaFq7prvU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:FJ0r+4AlIdCBFw$G@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> >
> > Depends what you mean by express. If just fast then you have Flintoff,
> > Jack Gregory, Keith Miller (the best of the lot in my book), Alan
> > Davidson, Mike Proctor, Richard Hadlee, Chris Cairns and Imran Khan.
> > The only ones worth a place as either batsman or bowler are Miller,
> > Gregory and Proctor. Flintoff may fall into that category in a year or
> > so. RH
>
> I mean consistently 90mph+. Imran Khan played purely as a batsman for over a
> year when stress fractures prevented him from bowling.

If you mean 1983 and 1983/4, it was about 8 months actually, and mainly in ODIs - he only played 2
Tests out of 8 in that period, and I don't think he toured India at all. He was also captain, of
course.

I don't dispute that he was good enough to be picked as a specialist batsman for most of the latter
half of his Test career, though.

> Incidentally, I
> wonder why both Sky and channel 4 designate Freddy as RFM although he is
> quicker than Jones who they call RF.

The designations don't tend to get updated if a bowler increases or decreases in pace.
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk





30 Jul 2004 12:35:40
David North
Re: All- rounders.

"Andrew Dunford" <adunford@artifax.net > wrote in message
news:V4qOc.1102$zS6.134779@news02.tsnz.net...
>
> "Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9p+lWeAP5dCBFwaM@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> > In article <2ms5lnFq8prpU1@uni-berlin.de>, Steve Hague
> > <steve.hague@ntlworld.com> writes
> > >Alan Davidson was fast medium.
> >
> > Definitely fast when he wanted to be. The greatest left arm quick in
> > history. Took 184 Test wickets at 20 apiece. Beautiful action. Also
> > bowled medium paced leg cutters. Exceptionally dangerous hitter (left
> > handed) when he got in. Genuine athlete and one of the safest catchers
> > you could ever see. One of my favourite cricketers. Definitely in my all
> > time Oz eleven which is:
> >
> > Trumper
> > Lawry
> > Bradman
> > MacCartney
> > Chappell G
> > Miller
> > Gilchrist
> > Davidson
> > Lindwall
> > Warne
> > O'Reilly
> > RH
>
> For such a patriotic Englishman, I'm a bit surprised to see you sneak
> yourself into an Australian team as twelfth man.

Not if you consider what he might put in the drinks. ;o)
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




30 Jul 2004 14:49:06
John Charnock
Re: All- rounders.


"Dean Jarratt" wrote...
> "Steve Hague" wrote
>
> > I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> > produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> > Procter, but there must have been others.
> > Steve Hague.
>
> I heard that Devon Malcolm scored a century the other day...in some form
of
> cricket. He was express pace.
>

On that basis I reckon that Harmison has been deprived of the chance
of a quick ton by Vaughan declaring England's innings just as he was
getting going.

John Charnock




30 Jul 2004 15:20:44
David Lewis
Re: All- rounders.


"John Charnock" <j.m.charnock@dl.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:cedjkj$8m3$1@mserv2.dl.ac.uk...
>
> "Dean Jarratt" wrote...
> > "Steve Hague" wrote
> >
> > > I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able
to
> > > produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and
Mike
> > > Procter, but there must have been others.
> > > Steve Hague.
> >
> > I heard that Devon Malcolm scored a century the other day...in some form
> of
> > cricket. He was express pace.
> >
>
> On that basis I reckon that Harmison has been deprived of the chance
> of a quick ton by Vaughan declaring England's innings just as he was
> getting going.
>
> John Charnock
>
He was looking good, wasn't he. Can't say I remember him successfully
playing the reverse sweep previously. Or hitting a six over mid-on.
Confidence begats confidence, I suppose.

Cheers

David




30 Jul 2004 16:08:24
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.

In article <cecvf7$fil$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net >, David Lewis
<lewis@rmplc.co.uk > writes
>
>"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:9p+lWeAP5dCBFwaM@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <2ms5lnFq8prpU1@uni-berlin.de>, Steve Hague
>> <steve.hague@ntlworld.com> writes
>> >Alan Davidson was fast medium.
>>
>> Definitely fast when he wanted to be. The greatest left arm quick in
>> history. Took 184 Test wickets at 20 apiece. Beautiful action. Also
>> bowled medium paced leg cutters. Exceptionally dangerous hitter (left
>> handed) when he got in. Genuine athlete and one of the safest catchers
>> you could ever see. One of my favourite cricketers. Definitely in my all
>> time Oz eleven which is:
>>
>> Trumper
>> Lawry
>> Bradman
>> MacCartney
>> Chappell G
>> Miller
>> Gilchrist
>> Davidson
>> Lindwall
>> Warne
>> O'Reilly
>> RH
>
>Interesting that you picked Gilchrist, given his quality or otherwise as a
>keeper.
>
He is such a batting force that it outweighs his ordinary keeping. The
best Oz keeper I ever saw was Wally Grout. RH

>David
>
>

--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


30 Jul 2004 16:16:53
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.

In article <cedau8$tm$1@oyez.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk >, Dr A. N. Walker
<anw@maths.nott.ac.uk > writes
>In article <cebgd4$vpv$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net>,
>David Lewis <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:
>>Thanks Andy. Do you know about the Aus allrounder in the 1920's?
>
> No, I'm not *that* old. RH will no doubt give you his
>memories of Gregory ....
>
Being a year or two younger than you I must defer to your greater
length of watching.

Gregory and MacDonald were responsible at least in part for bodyline.
They bowled consistently short in 1920/21 and 1921. Gregory hit 15
batsmen on the head on the 1921 tour. Their bowling was resented and
removed any moral objection to bodyline in the mind of Jardine and many
Englishmen.

Hypocritically, Oz whined incessantly about Larwood and Voce throughout
the 30s and then bowled what was effectively bodyline after WW2 using
Miller and Lindwall. RH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


30 Jul 2004 18:30:26
John Hall
Re: All- rounders.

In article <dy0dwcAlZmCBFwvA@anywhere.demon.co.uk >,
Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > writes:
>In article <cedau8$tm$1@oyez.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>, Dr A. N. Walker
><anw@maths.nott.ac.uk> writes
>>In article <cebgd4$vpv$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net>,
>>David Lewis <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Thanks Andy. Do you know about the Aus allrounder in the 1920's?
>>
>> No, I'm not *that* old. RH will no doubt give you his
>>memories of Gregory ....
>>
>Being a year or two younger than you I must defer to your greater
>length of watching.
>
>Gregory and MacDonald were responsible at least in part for bodyline.
>They bowled consistently short in 1920/21 and 1921. Gregory hit 15
>batsmen on the head on the 1921 tour. Their bowling was resented and
>removed any moral objection to bodyline in the mind of Jardine and many
>Englishmen.

(For the benefit of others - I know both RH and AW know all this.)

A year or two after that 1921 tour, Gregory incurred a serious injury.
Though he came back from it, it seems that he was no longer truly fast
and nothing like as effective. Meanwhile Macdonald threw in his lot with
Lancashire, and seems to have no longer been considered for Australia.

I believe Gregory still holds the fastest century in Tests in terms of
time - 70 minutes IIRC. He was a good enough batsman to get 442 runs at
73.66 in the 1920-1 series, along with 23 wickets at 24.17. One of the
finest all-round performances in an Ashes series.
--
John Hall
"I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly,
will hardly mind anything else."
Dr Samuel Johnson (1709-84)


30 Jul 2004 19:36:41
David Lewis
Re: All- rounders.


"John Hall" <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk > wrote in message
news:6D9$iwEyWoCBFwo7@jhall.demon.co.uk...
> In article <dy0dwcAlZmCBFwvA@anywhere.demon.co.uk>,
> Robert Henderson <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >In article <cedau8$tm$1@oyez.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>, Dr A. N. Walker
> ><anw@maths.nott.ac.uk> writes
> >>In article <cebgd4$vpv$1@newsfeed.th.ifl.net>,
> >>David Lewis <lewis@rmplc.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>Thanks Andy. Do you know about the Aus allrounder in the 1920's?
> >>
> >> No, I'm not *that* old. RH will no doubt give you his
> >>memories of Gregory ....
> >>
> >Being a year or two younger than you I must defer to your greater
> >length of watching.
> >
> >Gregory and MacDonald were responsible at least in part for bodyline.
> >They bowled consistently short in 1920/21 and 1921. Gregory hit 15
> >batsmen on the head on the 1921 tour. Their bowling was resented and
> >removed any moral objection to bodyline in the mind of Jardine and many
> >Englishmen.
>
> (For the benefit of others - I know both RH and AW know all this.)
>
> A year or two after that 1921 tour, Gregory incurred a serious injury.
> Though he came back from it, it seems that he was no longer truly fast
> and nothing like as effective. Meanwhile Macdonald threw in his lot with
> Lancashire, and seems to have no longer been considered for Australia.
>
> I believe Gregory still holds the fastest century in Tests in terms of
> time - 70 minutes IIRC. He was a good enough batsman to get 442 runs at
> 73.66 in the 1920-1 series, along with 23 wickets at 24.17. One of the
> finest all-round performances in an Ashes series.
> --
> John Hall

Thank you both.

David




30 Jul 2004 21:22:47
Steve Hague
Re: All- rounders.


>
> > Incidentally, I
> > wonder why both Sky and channel 4 designate Freddy as RFM although he is
> > quicker than Jones who they call RF.
>
> The designations don't tend to get updated if a bowler increases or
decreases in pace.
> --
> David North

They were quick enough to update Gough to RFM.
Steve Hague.




30 Jul 2004 14:07:33
Tansen Varghese
Re: All- rounders.

"David North" <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk > wrote in message news:<2mupsjFq61o2U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> "Steve Hague" <steve.hague@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:2mubgaFq7prvU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:FJ0r+4AlIdCBFw$G@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> > >
> > > Depends what you mean by express. If just fast then you have Flintoff,
> > > Jack Gregory, Keith Miller (the best of the lot in my book), Alan
> > > Davidson, Mike Proctor, Richard Hadlee, Chris Cairns and Imran Khan.
> > > The only ones worth a place as either batsman or bowler are Miller,
> > > Gregory and Proctor. Flintoff may fall into that category in a year or
> > > so. RH
> >
> > I mean consistently 90mph+. Imran Khan played purely as a batsman for over a
> > year when stress fractures prevented him from bowling.
>
> If you mean 1983 and 1983/4, it was about 8 months actually, and mainly in ODIs - he only played 2
> Tests out of 8 in that period, and I don't think he toured India at all. He was also captain, of
> course.
>
> I don't dispute that he was good enough to be picked as a specialist batsman for most of the latter
> half of his Test career, though.
>
> > Incidentally, I
> > wonder why both Sky and channel 4 designate Freddy as RFM although he is
> > quicker than Jones who they call RF.
>
> The designations don't tend to get updated if a bowler increases or decreases in pace.

Imran's performance after he came back from his shin fracture, when he
wasn't as fast anymore, but played more responsibly as a batsman:

Filter: in matches that started after 1984-01-01.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w
unfiltered 88 3807 136 37.69 6 18 362 8/58 22.81 23
filtered 38 1799 136 47.34 4 11 130 7/40 22.63 7

From Stats Guru in cricinfo.

Tansen.


30 Jul 2004 18:24:31
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.

In article <Xns95365DDF0F71Edjarrattposts@158.152.254.254 >, Dean Jarratt
<d.jarratt@spamless.ukonline.co.uk > writes
>Seriously though I remember Ian Botham bowling very quick in the 85 Ashes
>series

His bowling at Lords was described as the fastest seen there from an
England bowler since Trueman's epic spell in 1956. RH

>...I can remember Australian stumps flying, in the good old days when
>cameras were at the back of the batsmen.

--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


31 Jul 2004 08:02:47
Steve Hague
Re: All- rounders.


"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:Qcu+bKAPRoCBFwMd@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <Xns95365DDF0F71Edjarrattposts@158.152.254.254>, Dean Jarratt
> <d.jarratt@spamless.ukonline.co.uk> writes
> >Seriously though I remember Ian Botham bowling very quick in the 85 Ashes
> >series
>
> His bowling at Lords was described as the fastest seen there from an
> England bowler since Trueman's epic spell in 1956. RH
>
> >...I can remember Australian stumps flying, in the good old days when
> >cameras were at the back of the batsmen.
>
I remember that. I wonder where his extra pace came from and where it went
to.
Steve Hague.




31 Jul 2004 10:20:50
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.

In article <ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk >, Steve Hague <steve@hague2
687.freeserve.co.uk > writes
>I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
>produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
>Procter, but there must have been others.
>Steve Hague.
>
>
A few more names. George Ullyett was true Test quality as batsman and
bowler. There is also Billy Barnes who according to which description
you read was Fast of FM. If fast, he was also worth his place as batsman
or bowler. George Hirst is also calssed as fast by some.

Then there is the class of fast bowler who could bat but not as a true
allrounder: Bill Lockwood, Harold Larwood, Stan Nicholls, Learie
Constantine, Malcolm Marshall, Ray Lindwall, Gary Gilmour. RH
--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


31 Jul 2004 10:59:37
David North
Re: All- rounders.

"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk > wrote in message
news:QSheoJAyR2CBFwsT@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Steve Hague <steve@hague2
> 687.freeserve.co.uk> writes
> >I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
> >produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
> >Procter, but there must have been others.
> >Steve Hague.
> >
> >
> A few more names. George Ullyett was true Test quality as batsman and
> bowler. There is also Billy Barnes who according to which description
> you read was Fast of FM. If fast, he was also worth his place as batsman
> or bowler. George Hirst is also calssed as fast by some.
>
> Then there is the class of fast bowler who could bat but not as a true
> allrounder: Bill Lockwood, Harold Larwood, Stan Nicholls, Learie
> Constantine, Malcolm Marshall, Ray Lindwall, Gary Gilmour. RH

Peter Pollock is the other one that springs to mind.
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk




31 Jul 2004 11:03:53
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.

In article <2n0ugqFrbe9cU1@uni-berlin.de >, Steve Hague
<steve.hague@ntlworld.com > writes
>
>"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:Qcu+bKAPRoCBFwMd@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <Xns95365DDF0F71Edjarrattposts@158.152.254.254>, Dean Jarratt
>> <d.jarratt@spamless.ukonline.co.uk> writes
>> >Seriously though I remember Ian Botham bowling very quick in the 85 Ashes
>> >series
>>
>> His bowling at Lords was described as the fastest seen there from an
>> England bowler since Trueman's epic spell in 1956. RH
>>
>> >...I can remember Australian stumps flying, in the good old days when
>> >cameras were at the back of the batsmen.
>>
>I remember that. I wonder where his extra pace came from and where it went
>to.

He could bowl fast but only by pure strength which is a very tiring
activity. Also, Botham never looked after himself physically. After 1985
he became seriously overweight. He was also past 30 - in 1985 he was
29.

The 1985 Ashes series saw Botham's last serious contribution as a top
Test allrounder. RH

>Steve Hague.
>
>

--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk


01 Aug 2004 06:21:53
Robert Henderson
Re: All- rounders.

In article <2n18r8Fs4lq4U1@uni-berlin.de >, David North <dnorth@abbeymano
r.fsbusiness.co.uk > writes
>"Robert Henderson" <Philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:QSheoJAyR2CBFwsT@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <ceajq7$73g$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Steve Hague <steve@hague2
>> 687.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>> >I wonder how many genuine international all- rounders have been able to
>> >produce express pace? I can only recall seeing two, Imran Khan and Mike
>> >Procter, but there must have been others.
>> >Steve Hague.
>> >
>> >
>> A few more names. George Ullyett was true Test quality as batsman and
>> bowler. There is also Billy Barnes who according to which description
>> you read was Fast of FM. If fast, he was also worth his place as batsman
>> or bowler. George Hirst is also calssed as fast by some.
>>
>> Then there is the class of fast bowler who could bat but not as a true
>> allrounder: Bill Lockwood, Harold Larwood, Stan Nicholls, Learie
>> Constantine, Malcolm Marshall, Ray Lindwall, Gary Gilmour. RH
>
>Peter Pollock is the other one that springs to mind.

I also missed the very obvious Gubby Allen, who was not that far short
of being a genuine Test allrounder. RH

--
Robert Henderson
philip@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk