27 Feb 2005 23:56:30
Gary McGuinness
Insurance RAPA

There obviously has been a lot of debate about withdrawing BPA 3rd party
insurance cover at foreign DZ's (for individual BPA members and DZ's such as
RAPA), some discussions have also taken place on this subject in the
Questionnaire discussion below.

At the BPA AGM any member can propose anything and get the members to vote
on it (bypassing council), I think it would have to be lodged with the
office approx 30 or 40 days before the AGM (too late of course for the 2005
AGM).

So a lot of people (as below) have contacted the office with there 'views',
and had a good old (justified) moan about it.

Well in these circumstances it is better to take your grievances direct to
the membership, although you would not be able to ask for the impossible,
but I'm sure the current insurance cover for places like RAPA and BPA
Members abroad come within the realms of possibilities.

In summary, if you want to get something changed especially as crucial and
as important as this, then this is the method to action any proposal, I'm
sure the membership will look on any such proposal sympathetically.

This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
moaning, and sort it out.

Gary







#############################################
> Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
> council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.

At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
views.

If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
when will we be listened to?


> I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
> disgruntled BPA members.

Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
members?

#####################################################




28 Feb 2005 18:46:10
Paul
Re: Insurance RAPA

Gary,

I could talk for hours about BPA 3rd Party membership abroad, foreign
(european) jumpers and their insurance, and the differences between the
two.......!!. If the BPA are seriously thinking about stopping UK BPA
member 3rd party cover abroad, perhaps they should start to look more
towards Europe for the solution, actually I believe the answer is right
under their noses but nobody seems to want to look at it.

This discussion was well covered before Christmas on this NG and the
Chairman alluded to it in his speech at the AGM. However, I fully believe
it is now the time for the BPA to get together with the other european
skydiving associations and come up with a common top and bottom level of
cover for all european skydivers, that provides 3rd party coverage all over
europe. The USA and Canada is a very different ball game outside of the EU.

It will be a huge mistake for the BPA (and its insurer) to withdraw into
itself or within our shores and ignore the huge insurance market in the EU.
By comparison: To our one insurer providing cover for the BPA and its
members, the Germans have 13 insurance companies to choose from, the Swiss
have 7 insurance companies providing skydiving insurance (A tiny country
like Switzerland!!!!), Poland have 4 companies......I could go on.

But the big, big difference between the UK and the other EU nations is our
compensation culture and our attitude towards accepting responsibility for
our actions. In the UK the trend is to blame everyone else for an accident
including the manifester, the guy who made the WDI and the DZ owners
dog.........but in europe, if you have an accident caused by your actions
then you are at fault and if you injure someone by a negligent action then
you are to blame. It is very clear cut....if you do something you should
not have done.....tough shit. There is more to it than that but that is the
basics of it.

I started to canvass the EU associations before Christmas and some of the
responses I got were encouraging and only this week we have had information
from the DeutcheFallschirmsport Verband (German association) that they may
actually be the first EU association to make this move. Hopefully others
will follow allowing skydivers of all european nations to skydive at all
clubs and centres on their own national membership and insurance.

Paul

"Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1124npdbc1pc853@corp.supernews.com...
> There obviously has been a lot of debate about withdrawing BPA 3rd party
> insurance cover at foreign DZ's (for individual BPA members and DZ's such
> as RAPA), some discussions have also taken place on this subject in the
> Questionnaire discussion below.
>
> At the BPA AGM any member can propose anything and get the members to vote
> on it (bypassing council), I think it would have to be lodged with the
> office approx 30 or 40 days before the AGM (too late of course for the
> 2005 AGM).
>
> So a lot of people (as below) have contacted the office with there
> 'views', and had a good old (justified) moan about it.
>
> Well in these circumstances it is better to take your grievances direct to
> the membership, although you would not be able to ask for the impossible,
> but I'm sure the current insurance cover for places like RAPA and BPA
> Members abroad come within the realms of possibilities.
>
> In summary, if you want to get something changed especially as crucial and
> as important as this, then this is the method to action any proposal, I'm
> sure the membership will look on any such proposal sympathetically.
>
> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
> moaning, and sort it out.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> #############################################
>> Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>> council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>
> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
> views.
>
> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
> when will we be listened to?
>
>
>> I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>> disgruntled BPA members.
>
> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
> members?
>
> #####################################################
>




28 Feb 2005 19:03:59
Craig Bassindale
Re: Insurance RAPA

So does Gary think that his membership pays me to jump abroad?

My thoughts on the third party insurance is not much as I have lots of my
own as travel well and living in Germany you need third party for
everything.

Next he will be saying we should not get the use of Royal Mail? as he buys
stamps.

I think that taking away insurance cover for jumpers would not be a great
deal as jumpers would be better of with there own a bit like making sure you
have an E111 in your pocket.

Us Brits spend most of our time in the US and like me I am sure are members
of USPA anyway so I am not worried.

Only my 1 Euros worth (tax free)

"Paul" <PaulMoore@t-online.de > wrote in message
news:cvvld7$qb$04$1@news.t-online.com...
> Gary,
>
> I could talk for hours about BPA 3rd Party membership abroad, foreign
> (european) jumpers and their insurance, and the differences between the
> two.......!!. If the BPA are seriously thinking about stopping UK BPA
> member 3rd party cover abroad, perhaps they should start to look more
> towards Europe for the solution, actually I believe the answer is right
> under their noses but nobody seems to want to look at it.
>
> This discussion was well covered before Christmas on this NG and the
> Chairman alluded to it in his speech at the AGM. However, I fully believe
> it is now the time for the BPA to get together with the other european
> skydiving associations and come up with a common top and bottom level of
> cover for all european skydivers, that provides 3rd party coverage all
> over europe. The USA and Canada is a very different ball game outside of
> the EU.
>
> It will be a huge mistake for the BPA (and its insurer) to withdraw into
> itself or within our shores and ignore the huge insurance market in the
> EU. By comparison: To our one insurer providing cover for the BPA and its
> members, the Germans have 13 insurance companies to choose from, the Swiss
> have 7 insurance companies providing skydiving insurance (A tiny country
> like Switzerland!!!!), Poland have 4 companies......I could go on.
>
> But the big, big difference between the UK and the other EU nations is our
> compensation culture and our attitude towards accepting responsibility for
> our actions. In the UK the trend is to blame everyone else for an
> accident including the manifester, the guy who made the WDI and the DZ
> owners dog.........but in europe, if you have an accident caused by your
> actions then you are at fault and if you injure someone by a negligent
> action then you are to blame. It is very clear cut....if you do something
> you should not have done.....tough shit. There is more to it than that but
> that is the basics of it.
>
> I started to canvass the EU associations before Christmas and some of the
> responses I got were encouraging and only this week we have had
> information from the DeutcheFallschirmsport Verband (German association)
> that they may actually be the first EU association to make this move.
> Hopefully others will follow allowing skydivers of all european nations to
> skydive at all clubs and centres on their own national membership and
> insurance.
>
> Paul
>
> "Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:1124npdbc1pc853@corp.supernews.com...
>> There obviously has been a lot of debate about withdrawing BPA 3rd party
>> insurance cover at foreign DZ's (for individual BPA members and DZ's such
>> as RAPA), some discussions have also taken place on this subject in the
>> Questionnaire discussion below.
>>
>> At the BPA AGM any member can propose anything and get the members to
>> vote on it (bypassing council), I think it would have to be lodged with
>> the office approx 30 or 40 days before the AGM (too late of course for
>> the 2005 AGM).
>>
>> So a lot of people (as below) have contacted the office with there
>> 'views', and had a good old (justified) moan about it.
>>
>> Well in these circumstances it is better to take your grievances direct
>> to the membership, although you would not be able to ask for the
>> impossible, but I'm sure the current insurance cover for places like RAPA
>> and BPA Members abroad come within the realms of possibilities.
>>
>> In summary, if you want to get something changed especially as crucial
>> and as important as this, then this is the method to action any proposal,
>> I'm sure the membership will look on any such proposal sympathetically.
>>
>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> #############################################
>>> Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>>> council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>
>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>> views.
>>
>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>> when will we be listened to?
>>
>>
>>> I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>>> disgruntled BPA members.
>>
>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>> members?
>>
>> #####################################################
>>
>
>




28 Feb 2005 19:32:56
Gary McGuinness
Re: Insurance RAPA

> My thoughts on the third party insurance is not much as I have lots of my
> own as travel well and living in Germany you need third party for
> everything.

If it doesn't concern you much, why comment ?


> Next he will be saying we should not get the use of Royal Mail? as he buys
> stamps.

Who said that, not me !


> I think that taking away insurance cover for jumpers would not be a great
> deal as jumpers would be better of with there own a bit like making sure
> you have an E111 in your pocket.

E111 forms are coming to an end this year, do not give 3rd party cover, and
are for travellers, not foreign nationals residing in another EU state.

>
> Us Brits spend most of our time in the US and like me I am sure are
> members of USPA anyway so I am not worried.

USPA insurance, does not give insurance cover outside US for non US
nationals, and non green card holders.

> Only my 1 Euros worth (tax free)

By all means comment, but please add some valid points to the debate.

Gary



> "Paul" <PaulMoore@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:cvvld7$qb$04$1@news.t-online.com...
>> Gary,
>>
>> I could talk for hours about BPA 3rd Party membership abroad, foreign
>> (european) jumpers and their insurance, and the differences between the
>> two.......!!. If the BPA are seriously thinking about stopping UK BPA
>> member 3rd party cover abroad, perhaps they should start to look more
>> towards Europe for the solution, actually I believe the answer is right
>> under their noses but nobody seems to want to look at it.
>>
>> This discussion was well covered before Christmas on this NG and the
>> Chairman alluded to it in his speech at the AGM. However, I fully
>> believe it is now the time for the BPA to get together with the other
>> european skydiving associations and come up with a common top and bottom
>> level of cover for all european skydivers, that provides 3rd party
>> coverage all over europe. The USA and Canada is a very different ball
>> game outside of the EU.
>>
>> It will be a huge mistake for the BPA (and its insurer) to withdraw into
>> itself or within our shores and ignore the huge insurance market in the
>> EU. By comparison: To our one insurer providing cover for the BPA and its
>> members, the Germans have 13 insurance companies to choose from, the
>> Swiss have 7 insurance companies providing skydiving insurance (A tiny
>> country like Switzerland!!!!), Poland have 4 companies......I could go
>> on.
>>
>> But the big, big difference between the UK and the other EU nations is
>> our compensation culture and our attitude towards accepting
>> responsibility for our actions. In the UK the trend is to blame everyone
>> else for an accident including the manifester, the guy who made the WDI
>> and the DZ owners dog.........but in europe, if you have an accident
>> caused by your actions then you are at fault and if you injure someone by
>> a negligent action then you are to blame. It is very clear cut....if you
>> do something you should not have done.....tough shit. There is more to it
>> than that but that is the basics of it.
>>
>> I started to canvass the EU associations before Christmas and some of the
>> responses I got were encouraging and only this week we have had
>> information from the DeutcheFallschirmsport Verband (German association)
>> that they may actually be the first EU association to make this move.
>> Hopefully others will follow allowing skydivers of all european nations
>> to skydive at all clubs and centres on their own national membership and
>> insurance.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> "Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk> wrote in
>> message news:1124npdbc1pc853@corp.supernews.com...
>>> There obviously has been a lot of debate about withdrawing BPA 3rd party
>>> insurance cover at foreign DZ's (for individual BPA members and DZ's
>>> such as RAPA), some discussions have also taken place on this subject in
>>> the Questionnaire discussion below.
>>>
>>> At the BPA AGM any member can propose anything and get the members to
>>> vote on it (bypassing council), I think it would have to be lodged with
>>> the office approx 30 or 40 days before the AGM (too late of course for
>>> the 2005 AGM).
>>>
>>> So a lot of people (as below) have contacted the office with there
>>> 'views', and had a good old (justified) moan about it.
>>>
>>> Well in these circumstances it is better to take your grievances direct
>>> to the membership, although you would not be able to ask for the
>>> impossible, but I'm sure the current insurance cover for places like
>>> RAPA and BPA Members abroad come within the realms of possibilities.
>>>
>>> In summary, if you want to get something changed especially as crucial
>>> and as important as this, then this is the method to action any
>>> proposal, I'm sure the membership will look on any such proposal
>>> sympathetically.
>>>
>>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> #############################################
>>>> Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>>>> council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>>
>>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>>> views.
>>>
>>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>>> when will we be listened to?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>>>> disgruntled BPA members.
>>>
>>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>>> members?
>>>
>>> #####################################################
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




28 Feb 2005 19:43:44
Gary McGuinness
Re: Insurance RAPA

Paul,
you have obviously looked into this in detail, and of course your
ideas are good, but there is a lot of 'if's' and 'but's', and 'maybe's'.

If you want to send a very clear message to council on this issue, then
propose it at the next AGM, and get the membership to vote on it direct, if
you feel (which you obviously do) very strongly on the subject, you will
then have a definitive decision Mid January 2006, rather than, 'well we may
look at it in a couple of years'.

Laters...............

Gary






"Paul" <PaulMoore@t-online.de > wrote in message
news:cvvld7$qb$04$1@news.t-online.com...
> Gary,
>
> I could talk for hours about BPA 3rd Party membership abroad, foreign
> (european) jumpers and their insurance, and the differences between the
> two.......!!. If the BPA are seriously ###thinking### about stopping UK
> BPA member 3rd party cover abroad, ###perhaps### they should ###start###
> to ##look### more towards Europe for the solution, actually I believe the
> answer is right under their noses but nobody seems to want to ###look###
> at it.
>
> This discussion was well covered before Christmas on this NG and the
> Chairman alluded to it in his speech at the AGM. However, I fully believe
> it is now the time for the BPA to get together with the other european
> skydiving associations and ###come up### with a common top and bottom
> level of cover for all european skydivers, that provides 3rd party
> coverage all over europe. The USA and Canada is a very different ball
> game outside of the EU.
>
> It will be a huge mistake for the BPA (and its insurer) to withdraw into
> itself or within our shores and ignore the huge insurance market in the
> EU. By comparison: To our one insurer providing cover for the BPA and its
> members, the Germans have 13 insurance companies to choose from, the Swiss
> have 7 insurance companies providing skydiving insurance (A tiny country
> like Switzerland!!!!), Poland have 4 companies......I could go on.
>
> But the big, big difference between the UK and the other EU nations is our
> compensation culture and our attitude towards accepting responsibility for
> our actions. In the UK the trend is to blame everyone else for an
> accident including the manifester, the guy who made the WDI and the DZ
> owners dog.........but in europe, if you have an accident caused by your
> actions then you are at fault and if you injure someone by a negligent
> action then you are to blame. It is very clear cut....if you do something
> you should not have done.....tough shit. There is more to it than that but
> that is the basics of it.
>
> I started to canvass the EU associations before Christmas and some of the
> responses I got were encouraging and only this week we have had
> information from the DeutcheFallschirmsport Verband (German association)
> that they may actually be the first EU association to make this move.
> Hopefully others will follow allowing skydivers of all european nations to
> skydive at all clubs and centres on their own national membership and
> insurance.
>
> Paul
>
> "Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:1124npdbc1pc853@corp.supernews.com...
>> There obviously has been a lot of debate about withdrawing BPA 3rd party
>> insurance cover at foreign DZ's (for individual BPA members and DZ's such
>> as RAPA), some discussions have also taken place on this subject in the
>> Questionnaire discussion below.
>>
>> At the BPA AGM any member can propose anything and get the members to
>> vote on it (bypassing council), I think it would have to be lodged with
>> the office approx 30 or 40 days before the AGM (too late of course for
>> the 2005 AGM).
>>
>> So a lot of people (as below) have contacted the office with there
>> 'views', and had a good old (justified) moan about it.
>>
>> Well in these circumstances it is better to take your grievances direct
>> to the membership, although you would not be able to ask for the
>> impossible, but I'm sure the current insurance cover for places like RAPA
>> and BPA Members abroad come within the realms of possibilities.
>>
>> In summary, if you want to get something changed especially as crucial
>> and as important as this, then this is the method to action any proposal,
>> I'm sure the membership will look on any such proposal sympathetically.
>>
>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> #############################################
>>> Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>>> council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>
>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>> views.
>>
>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>> when will we be listened to?
>>
>>
>>> I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>>> disgruntled BPA members.
>>
>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>> members?
>>
>> #####################################################
>>
>
>




28 Feb 2005 21:05:54
Craig Bassindale
Re: Insurance RAPA

I only reply because I have a mind and my own thoughts.

What adverse effect would it have on me personally, not much.

But what about the membership, is that what it is all about! Lilo, Empuria
and yes RAPA.

Are We thinking BPA as in Skydiving as a whole or the sport as in Gary's
sport?
"Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1126tanop72uc16@corp.supernews.com...
> Paul,
> you have obviously looked into this in detail, and of course your
> ideas are good, but there is a lot of 'if's' and 'but's', and 'maybe's'.
>
> If you want to send a very clear message to council on this issue, then
> propose it at the next AGM, and get the membership to vote on it direct,
> if you feel (which you obviously do) very strongly on the subject, you
> will then have a definitive decision Mid January 2006, rather than, 'well
> we may look at it in a couple of years'.
>
> Laters...............
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Paul" <PaulMoore@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:cvvld7$qb$04$1@news.t-online.com...
>> Gary,
>>
>> I could talk for hours about BPA 3rd Party membership abroad, foreign
>> (european) jumpers and their insurance, and the differences between the
>> two.......!!. If the BPA are seriously ###thinking### about stopping UK
>> BPA member 3rd party cover abroad, ###perhaps### they should ###start###
>> to ##look### more towards Europe for the solution, actually I believe the
>> answer is right under their noses but nobody seems to want to ###look###
>> at it.
>>
>> This discussion was well covered before Christmas on this NG and the
>> Chairman alluded to it in his speech at the AGM. However, I fully
>> believe it is now the time for the BPA to get together with the other
>> european skydiving associations and ###come up### with a common top and
>> bottom level of cover for all european skydivers, that provides 3rd party
>> coverage all over europe. The USA and Canada is a very different ball
>> game outside of the EU.
>>
>> It will be a huge mistake for the BPA (and its insurer) to withdraw into
>> itself or within our shores and ignore the huge insurance market in the
>> EU. By comparison: To our one insurer providing cover for the BPA and its
>> members, the Germans have 13 insurance companies to choose from, the
>> Swiss have 7 insurance companies providing skydiving insurance (A tiny
>> country like Switzerland!!!!), Poland have 4 companies......I could go
>> on.
>>
>> But the big, big difference between the UK and the other EU nations is
>> our compensation culture and our attitude towards accepting
>> responsibility for our actions. In the UK the trend is to blame everyone
>> else for an accident including the manifester, the guy who made the WDI
>> and the DZ owners dog.........but in europe, if you have an accident
>> caused by your actions then you are at fault and if you injure someone by
>> a negligent action then you are to blame. It is very clear cut....if you
>> do something you should not have done.....tough shit. There is more to it
>> than that but that is the basics of it.
>>
>> I started to canvass the EU associations before Christmas and some of the
>> responses I got were encouraging and only this week we have had
>> information from the DeutcheFallschirmsport Verband (German association)
>> that they may actually be the first EU association to make this move.
>> Hopefully others will follow allowing skydivers of all european nations
>> to skydive at all clubs and centres on their own national membership and
>> insurance.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> "Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk> wrote in
>> message news:1124npdbc1pc853@corp.supernews.com...
>>> There obviously has been a lot of debate about withdrawing BPA 3rd party
>>> insurance cover at foreign DZ's (for individual BPA members and DZ's
>>> such as RAPA), some discussions have also taken place on this subject in
>>> the Questionnaire discussion below.
>>>
>>> At the BPA AGM any member can propose anything and get the members to
>>> vote on it (bypassing council), I think it would have to be lodged with
>>> the office approx 30 or 40 days before the AGM (too late of course for
>>> the 2005 AGM).
>>>
>>> So a lot of people (as below) have contacted the office with there
>>> 'views', and had a good old (justified) moan about it.
>>>
>>> Well in these circumstances it is better to take your grievances direct
>>> to the membership, although you would not be able to ask for the
>>> impossible, but I'm sure the current insurance cover for places like
>>> RAPA and BPA Members abroad come within the realms of possibilities.
>>>
>>> In summary, if you want to get something changed especially as crucial
>>> and as important as this, then this is the method to action any
>>> proposal, I'm sure the membership will look on any such proposal
>>> sympathetically.
>>>
>>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> #############################################
>>>> Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>>>> council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>>
>>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>>> views.
>>>
>>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>>> when will we be listened to?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>>>> disgruntled BPA members.
>>>
>>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>>> members?
>>>
>>> #####################################################
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




28 Feb 2005 21:15:00
Paul
Re: Insurance RAPA

No Gary, you got it wrong there. There were no 'if's' and 'but's', and
'maybe's' in my note and as for 'well we may
> look at it in a couple of years'. I never said that either.!!

This is happenning NOW. Everything I wrote there is fact and happenning now.
There have been a whole series of meetings and a mountain of paperwork
written over the last 5 months on this very subject and it moves on.
I believe Council already have the message but are either a. unable to do
something about it or b. unwilling. I really dont believe it is the latter.
As much as Council have some failings they are generally behind what the
membership want. They do need to be canvassed though. Remember that
Council (as good guys that they are)..........actually are all amateurs
doing their best when they can.
They dont have time to look into everything in as much detail as we would
want them to, and perhaps in a boring old subject like insurance they are
only too willing to accept whatever our broker says. No-one in Council
lives in mainland europe and for the reasons above perhaps dont have the
time, inclination or money to travel over here and investigate the market.
if the BPA REALLY want to get serious about the whole insurance issue they
should stop pissing about with amateur council working groups, invest some
money in getting some sound professional INDEPENDANT advice on the european
market and really find out what is out there on the european insurance
market for British skydivers.

Our membership and insurance will cost 111 this year, following another
annual rise. An experienced German skydiver pays 59 Euros, and his has'nt
gone up in 4 years. Think about it......................


"Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1126tanop72uc16@corp.supernews.com...
> Paul,
> you have obviously looked into this in detail, and of course your
> ideas are good, but there is a lot of 'if's' and 'but's', and 'maybe's'.
>
> If you want to send a very clear message to council on this issue, then
> propose it at the next AGM, and get the membership to vote on it direct,
> if you feel (which you obviously do) very strongly on the subject, you
> will then have a definitive decision Mid January 2006, rather than, 'well
> we may look at it in a couple of years'.
>
> Laters...............
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Paul" <PaulMoore@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:cvvld7$qb$04$1@news.t-online.com...
>> Gary,
>>
>> I could talk for hours about BPA 3rd Party membership abroad, foreign
>> (european) jumpers and their insurance, and the differences between the
>> two.......!!. If the BPA are seriously ###thinking### about stopping UK
>> BPA member 3rd party cover abroad, ###perhaps### they should ###start###
>> to ##look### more towards Europe for the solution, actually I believe the
>> answer is right under their noses but nobody seems to want to ###look###
>> at it.
>>
>> This discussion was well covered before Christmas on this NG and the
>> Chairman alluded to it in his speech at the AGM. However, I fully
>> believe it is now the time for the BPA to get together with the other
>> european skydiving associations and ###come up### with a common top and
>> bottom level of cover for all european skydivers, that provides 3rd party
>> coverage all over europe. The USA and Canada is a very different ball
>> game outside of the EU.
>>
>> It will be a huge mistake for the BPA (and its insurer) to withdraw into
>> itself or within our shores and ignore the huge insurance market in the
>> EU. By comparison: To our one insurer providing cover for the BPA and its
>> members, the Germans have 13 insurance companies to choose from, the
>> Swiss have 7 insurance companies providing skydiving insurance (A tiny
>> country like Switzerland!!!!), Poland have 4 companies......I could go
>> on.
>>
>> But the big, big difference between the UK and the other EU nations is
>> our compensation culture and our attitude towards accepting
>> responsibility for our actions. In the UK the trend is to blame everyone
>> else for an accident including the manifester, the guy who made the WDI
>> and the DZ owners dog.........but in europe, if you have an accident
>> caused by your actions then you are at fault and if you injure someone by
>> a negligent action then you are to blame. It is very clear cut....if you
>> do something you should not have done.....tough shit. There is more to it
>> than that but that is the basics of it.
>>
>> I started to canvass the EU associations before Christmas and some of the
>> responses I got were encouraging and only this week we have had
>> information from the DeutcheFallschirmsport Verband (German association)
>> that they may actually be the first EU association to make this move.
>> Hopefully others will follow allowing skydivers of all european nations
>> to skydive at all clubs and centres on their own national membership and
>> insurance.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> "Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk> wrote in
>> message news:1124npdbc1pc853@corp.supernews.com...
>>> There obviously has been a lot of debate about withdrawing BPA 3rd party
>>> insurance cover at foreign DZ's (for individual BPA members and DZ's
>>> such as RAPA), some discussions have also taken place on this subject in
>>> the Questionnaire discussion below.
>>>
>>> At the BPA AGM any member can propose anything and get the members to
>>> vote on it (bypassing council), I think it would have to be lodged with
>>> the office approx 30 or 40 days before the AGM (too late of course for
>>> the 2005 AGM).
>>>
>>> So a lot of people (as below) have contacted the office with there
>>> 'views', and had a good old (justified) moan about it.
>>>
>>> Well in these circumstances it is better to take your grievances direct
>>> to the membership, although you would not be able to ask for the
>>> impossible, but I'm sure the current insurance cover for places like
>>> RAPA and BPA Members abroad come within the realms of possibilities.
>>>
>>> In summary, if you want to get something changed especially as crucial
>>> and as important as this, then this is the method to action any
>>> proposal, I'm sure the membership will look on any such proposal
>>> sympathetically.
>>>
>>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> #############################################
>>>> Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>>>> council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>>
>>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>>> views.
>>>
>>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>>> when will we be listened to?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>>>> disgruntled BPA members.
>>>
>>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>>> members?
>>>
>>> #####################################################
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




28 Feb 2005 12:35:49
ADAM
Re: Insurance RAPA

How do I sort out the BPA not listening to members when the BPA
chairman invites our views? I know there are ways to bring items to
the attention of the BPA membership - but when that membership is
asked by BPA council for its views you would think that they would
bother to listen rather than moan that people don't want to get
involved.


> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
> moaning, and sort it out.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> #############################################
> > Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
> > council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>
> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
> views.
>
> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
> when will we be listened to?
>
>
> > I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
> > disgruntled BPA members.
>
> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
> members?
>
> #####################################################


28 Feb 2005 20:48:31
Gary McGuinness
Re: Insurance RAPA

and your point ?


"ADAM" <prisoner_nosix@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:8494ea0d.0502281235.ba8115c@posting.google.com...
> How do I sort out the BPA not listening to members when the BPA
> chairman invites our views? I know there are ways to bring items to
> the attention of the BPA membership - but when that membership is
> asked by BPA council for its views you would think that they would
> bother to listen rather than moan that people don't want to get
> involved.
>
>
>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> #############################################
>> > Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>> > council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>
>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>> views.
>>
>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>> when will we be listened to?
>>
>>
>> > I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>> > disgruntled BPA members.
>>
>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>> members?
>>
>> #####################################################




28 Feb 2005 22:16:22
Craig Bassindale
Re: Insurance RAPA

Gary,

Your point?

Rank or not three words? well TY go away
"Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk > wrote in message
news:11271s9mbcmfa4d@corp.supernews.com...
> and your point ?
>
>
> "ADAM" <prisoner_nosix@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8494ea0d.0502281235.ba8115c@posting.google.com...
>> How do I sort out the BPA not listening to members when the BPA
>> chairman invites our views? I know there are ways to bring items to
>> the attention of the BPA membership - but when that membership is
>> asked by BPA council for its views you would think that they would
>> bother to listen rather than moan that people don't want to get
>> involved.
>>
>>
>>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> #############################################
>>> > Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>>> > council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>>
>>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>>> views.
>>>
>>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>>> when will we be listened to?
>>>
>>>
>>> > I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>>> > disgruntled BPA members.
>>>
>>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>>> members?
>>>
>>> #####################################################
>
>




28 Feb 2005 22:17:07
Craig Bassindale
Re: Insurance RAPA

4
"Craig Bassindale" <craig@skydivebaz.com > wrote in message
news:d001n8$2ag$1@online.de...
> Gary,
>
> Your point?
>
> Rank or not three words? well TY go away
> "Gary McGuinness" <NOSPAMputmyfirstnamehere@surfteam.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:11271s9mbcmfa4d@corp.supernews.com...
>> and your point ?
>>
>>
>> "ADAM" <prisoner_nosix@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:8494ea0d.0502281235.ba8115c@posting.google.com...
>>> How do I sort out the BPA not listening to members when the BPA
>>> chairman invites our views? I know there are ways to bring items to
>>> the attention of the BPA membership - but when that membership is
>>> asked by BPA council for its views you would think that they would
>>> bother to listen rather than moan that people don't want to get
>>> involved.
>>>
>>>
>>>> This method of change has always been available to any member, so stop
>>>> moaning, and sort it out.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> #############################################
>>>> > Question for you all when did you last try to contact a member of
>>>> > council there is a link to each persons e-mail on the BPA website.
>>>>
>>>> At the AGM we were told by the BPA chairman that our views were being
>>>> sought on the abolition of 3rd party insurance abroad. I e-mailed the
>>>> BPA, along with others, setting out my view. I received a reply from
>>>> the office saying my letter had been forwarded to the committee who
>>>> would contact me. No one has contacted me or anyone who sent in their
>>>> views.
>>>>
>>>> If we are not listened to when the BPA chairman asks for our views
>>>> when will we be listened to?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I am not about to start making the newsgroup a problem page for
>>>> > disgruntled BPA members.
>>>>
>>>> Is it not concerning that the BPA seems to have so many disgruntled
>>>> members?
>>>>
>>>> #####################################################
>>
>>
>
>