05 Sep 2006 16:03:00
Rick Hughes
Dive Master Training ?

Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view on
the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water > ADV
> Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.

One girl was coming to end of her course, and was moaning that she only had
just under 40 logged dives ... and although completed, could not get the
rating until she clocked up 60 dives.
There was some discussion on techniques and equipment over lunch one day,
and she really had no knowledge of kit or diving other than what took place
off that boat ... does somewhat question what the DiveMaster rating
actually means ?




05 Sep 2006 16:13:29
Nigel Hewitt
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Rick Hughes <rick_hughes@btconnect.com > wrote:

> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view on
> the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water > ADV
>> Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.

That's enough for Dive Master.

The problem is that people have an over inflated view of what
Dive Master means. DM means Rescue Diver with a demonstration
quality mask clear and 60 dives. There are DMs with thousands
of dives and extensive knowledge but that's not because they
are a DM but because of what they are like as people.

The people I feel sorry for are the poor fast-tracked students
who do, as you said, end up wondering where they missed on the
'Dive God' injections. They have seen enough of life doing a
short internship to know how little they know and yet here they
are getting the badge, the big handshake and are being sent out
into the big wide world.

Those that are worried are the good ones. It's the ones that
believe the hype that frighten me.

nigelH



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



05 Sep 2006 17:43:43
Sharky
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Nigel Hewitt wrote:
> Rick Hughes <rick_hughes@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
>> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
>> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view on
>> the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water > ADV
>>> Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
>> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.
>
> That's enough for Dive Master.
>
> The problem is that people have an over inflated view of what
> Dive Master means. DM means Rescue Diver with a demonstration
> quality mask clear and 60 dives. There are DMs with thousands
> of dives and extensive knowledge but that's not because they
> are a DM but because of what they are like as people.

Thats not what DM *SHOULD* only be, if thats all they are being taught
then QA the dive center!

What about the following:
8 exams:
1. Physics,
2. Physiology and First Aid,
3. Equipment,
4. Decompression Theory and the RDP,
5. Dive Skills and the Environment,
6. Supervising Activities for Certified Divers,
7. Supervising Student Divers in Training,
8. PADI Divemaster Conducted Pro-grams.

none of which are a 'gimmee'

20 key skills to demo standard, not just mask clear!

4 endurance tasks - 400m swim, 800m snorker swim, 100m tired diver tow,
15min tred water,

Rescue assesment
Mapping project


If you are doing it as an internship you need to do 5 (high) marked
assesments for assisting in each of confined and open water


>
> The people I feel sorry for are the poor fast-tracked students
> who do, as you said, end up wondering where they missed on the
> 'Dive God' injections. They have seen enough of life doing a
> short internship to know how little they know and yet here they
> are getting the badge, the big handshake and are being sent out
> into the big wide world.

Yes, I don't agree with the fast-track - this one (which might be very
good for all I know) http://home.hetnet.nl/~jelout/divemaster.html
will fast track you in 7-14 days.

How the hell can you do the study for the exams alone in a week let
alone the entire course.
Its a joke.




>
> Those that are worried are the good ones. It's the ones that
> believe the hype that frighten me.
>
> nigelH
>
>
>


05 Sep 2006 13:00:48
Osprey
Re: Dive Master Training ?


Sharky wrote:
> Nigel Hewitt wrote:
...... >
> Yes, I don't agree with the fast-track - this one (which might be very
> good for all I know) http://home.hetnet.nl/~jelout/divemaster.html
> will fast track you in 7-14 days.
>
> How the hell can you do the study for the exams alone in a week let
> alone the entire course.
> Its a joke.
>

I did ask the instructor what the pass rate was ....... wait for it
....
100%, you can't fail.
If they get any part wrong they just retake it until they pass ...
he advised knowledge reviews don't even have a pass mark, you could get
it all wrong, as long as somebody goes through it with you.

By the way I am not, and have no intention of being a Dive Master, it
was just an observation.



05 Sep 2006 22:19:34
Rudy Lacchin
Re: Dive Master Training ?


"Rick Hughes" <rick_hughes@btconnect.com > wrote in message
news:dNOdnRYDdoovDGDZnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com...
> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view on
> the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water >
> ADV
> > Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.

With two years experience and about 150 dives under my belt before starting,
I took five months over my DM course and I thought that was about right. I
sat through several complete OW courses - classroom, pool and open water -
and a few AOW and RD courses, and found the experience very useful.

On the other hand, I once found myself kitting up next to a DM-in-training
who told me that she just needed one or two dives to complete the
qualification, and admitted that she was slightly nervous because this was
to be her first sea dive.

It depends whether you just want to collect a badge or actually want to be a
useful, functioning DM.

R.




06 Sep 2006 00:17:41
Jason
Re: Dive Master Training ?

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:43:43 +0100, Sharky wrote:


> Thats not what DM *SHOULD* only be, if thats all they are being taught
> then QA the dive center!
>
> What about the following:
> 8 exams:
> 1. Physics,
> 2. Physiology and First Aid,
> 3. Equipment,
> 4. Decompression Theory and the RDP,
> 5. Dive Skills and the Environment,
> 6. Supervising Activities for Certified Divers, 7. Supervising Student
> Divers in Training, 8. PADI Divemaster Conducted Pro-grams.
>
> none of which are a 'gimmee'

Oh come, they're a piece of piss multiple guess questions. I read the book
for the first 2, but while we were there, decided to do all of them.
Passed the lot. If you've not done much diving and have no common sense,
they might be difficult.

Jason

--
See http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/for UK diving reports and the UK
Underwater Visibility Database. View the database or add your own report



06 Sep 2006 00:48:40
Sharky
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Jason wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 17:43:43 +0100, Sharky wrote:
>
>
>> Thats not what DM *SHOULD* only be, if thats all they are being taught
>> then QA the dive center!
>>
>> What about the following:
>> 8 exams:
>> 1. Physics,
>> 2. Physiology and First Aid,
>> 3. Equipment,
>> 4. Decompression Theory and the RDP,
>> 5. Dive Skills and the Environment,
>> 6. Supervising Activities for Certified Divers, 7. Supervising Student
>> Divers in Training, 8. PADI Divemaster Conducted Pro-grams.
>>
>> none of which are a 'gimmee'
>
> Oh come, they're a piece of piss multiple guess questions. I read the book
> for the first 2, but while we were there, decided to do all of them.
> Passed the lot. If you've not done much diving and have no common sense,
> they might be difficult.
>
> Jason
>
I suppose so, but some of the questions are just unguessable -
which position *IS* a j valve supposed to be in for filling the tank?
(still not sure having never seen a j valve!)


06 Sep 2006 07:40:54
Nick Eden
Re: Dive Master Training ?

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:13:29 +0100, "Nigel Hewitt"
<nigelhewitt@hotmail.co.uk > wrote:

>Rick Hughes <rick_hughes@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
>> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
>> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view on
>> the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water > ADV
>>> Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
>> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.
>
>That's enough for Dive Master.
>
>The problem is that people have an over inflated view of what
>Dive Master means. DM means Rescue Diver with a demonstration
>quality mask clear and 60 dives. There are DMs with thousands
>of dives and extensive knowledge but that's not because they
>are a DM but because of what they are like as people.
>
>The people I feel sorry for are the poor fast-tracked students
>who do, as you said, end up wondering where they missed on the
>'Dive God' injections. They have seen enough of life doing a
>short internship to know how little they know and yet here they
>are getting the badge, the big handshake and are being sent out
>into the big wide world.
>
>Those that are worried are the good ones. It's the ones that
>believe the hype that frighten me.

I met a couple in Sharm once who were both signed off as Dive masters.
They were really excited because they were there, in Egypt, ready to
do their first ever sea dives. Apparently they've done every previous
dive in Wraysbury, near Heathrow.
-------------------------------------
York BSAC Web Page:
http://www.york-diving.co.uk


06 Sep 2006 10:02:17
Barry
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Rick Hughes wrote:
> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view on
> the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water > ADV
> > Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.

No.

> One girl was coming to end of her course, and was moaning that she only had
> just under 40 logged dives ... and although completed, could not get the
> rating until she clocked up 60 dives.
> There was some discussion on techniques and equipment over lunch one day,
> and she really had no knowledge of kit or diving other than what took place
> off that boat ... does somewhat question what the DiveMaster rating
> actually means ?

It's ridiculous - even at 60 dives most people are only starting to get
their buoyancy properly under control. That's the stage when you ought
to be thinking about getting Rescue training.

Still, this is an old story - most people outside the training agencies
would probably agree that people are being allowed up the ladder way too
fast - hell, I've even been buddied up with instructors before who
couldn't control their own buoyancy.

What is really needed is a proper assessment of dive skills as a
precondition to more advanced training. So far, I've only ever seen this
happen on tec dive courses.



06 Sep 2006 10:07:27
Barry
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Sharky wrote:
> Jason wrote:
>> Oh come, they're a piece of piss multiple guess questions. I read the
>> book
>> for the first 2, but while we were there, decided to do all of them.
>> Passed the lot. If you've not done much diving and have no common sense,
>> they might be difficult.
>>
>> Jason
>>
> I suppose so, but some of the questions are just unguessable -
> which position *IS* a j valve supposed to be in for filling the tank?
> (still not sure having never seen a j valve!)

The correct answer is: it should be placed in the bin.


06 Sep 2006 08:38:53
Usenet Poster
Re: Dive Master Training ?


"Osprey" <rick_hughes@btconnect.com > wrote in message
news:1157486448.356075.62890@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sharky wrote:
>> Nigel Hewitt wrote:
> ......>
>> Yes, I don't agree with the fast-track - this one (which might be very
>> good for all I know) http://home.hetnet.nl/~jelout/divemaster.html
>> will fast track you in 7-14 days.
>>
>> How the hell can you do the study for the exams alone in a week let
>> alone the entire course.
>> Its a joke.
>>
>
> I did ask the instructor what the pass rate was ....... wait for it
> ....
> 100%, you can't fail.
> If they get any part wrong they just retake it until they pass ...
> he advised knowledge reviews don't even have a pass mark, you could get
> it all wrong, as long as somebody goes through it with you.

Er... that's the whole point of knowledge reviews - to ensure you've
understood what you've read in the manual and to highlight to the instructor
anything you didn't understand. If you get any of the questions wrong, the
instructor will go through them with you. I suspect you're getting the
knowledge reviews mixed up with the 8 exams - they're a totally different
kettle of fish!




06 Sep 2006 09:00:18
Bardo
Re: Dive Master Training ?


"Rudy Lacchin" <rulaREMOVETHIS@blueyonder.co.uk > wrote in message
news:WJmLg.3234$H03.4@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> With two years experience and about 150 dives under my belt before
> starting, I took five months over my DM course and I thought that was
> about right. I sat through several complete OW courses - classroom, pool
> and open water - and a few AOW and RD courses, and found the experience
> very useful.
>
> On the other hand, I once found myself kitting up next to a DM-in-training
> who told me that she just needed one or two dives to complete the
> qualification, and admitted that she was slightly nervous because this was
> to be her first sea dive.
>
> It depends whether you just want to collect a badge or actually want to be
> a useful, functioning DM.

Absolutely. I think it's far too easy to write the Divemaster course off
based purely upon the experiences of a few individuals. Like any course -
and regardless of what PADI say - the Divemaster course is only as good as
the instructor who delivers it and the individual who take it. Both must be
prepared to put in the time and effort to produce a Divemaster who does, at
least, have a reasonable grasp of diving theory and practice. We all know
that PADI standards aren't policed as well as they should be - especially
abroad - so it's the dive centres at fault as they try to squeeze money out
of holiday makers in the short time they're there.

Tech training is no different. Whilst there are some extremely good tech
instructors out there - I did most of my training through Phil Short, one of
the best in the business - I've met a number of tech instructors who sign
off people who clearly haven't made the grade. A mate of mine, for example,
did a NACD full cave course out in Mexico having only been diving for about
6 months. Now you'd think that someone with a full cave ticket would be
pretty sorted - especially for bouyancy - but this guy was all over the
shop! He struggled with shut downs and as soon as he became task loaded, he
fell apart. Not good. In my opinion, he should never have been signed off.

I did the Divemaster course myself back when I first started diving. Looking
back, I definately wasn't an experienced diver (I didn't have the 60 dives
at the start of the course) but the instructor I did the course with (here
in the UK) ensured that we jumped through all the right hoops to do the
course properly. I think my Divemaster course lasted about 9 months and I
helped out on countless OW, AOW and Rescue courses. Ultimately, it's all
down to inwater time and exposure to trainee divers (they're the people you
learn most from!) - that's what made the difference with the Divemaster
course I did!

That said, the Divemaster course doesn't make anyone a master of diving -
all it does is to produce a diver who is capable of assisting with training
in the very limited depth range of your average PADI recreational course.
The problem is that a lot of them start to believe the hype - I remember
being on a boat one day when a Divemaster turned up to do a 48m dive. "But
you're not certified to dive this deep" said the leader of his group. "But
I'm a Divemaster!" he replied. Oh dear, we all thought...




06 Sep 2006 07:04:28
Lee Bell
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Rudy Lacchin wrote

> It depends whether you just want to collect a badge or actually want to be
> a useful, functioning DM.

I respectfully disagree. All scuba cards are supposed to certify a certain
level of knowledge, skills and ability to others. The holder doesn't need a
card to prove he or she knows the material contained in the course. The DM
card is one of the first levels that certify that the holder is qualified to
provide in water services to others and the first level that certifies that
the holder is qualified to provide professional and training services for
pay.

Those that are not qualified, whether it's skills, knowledge, ability or
experience that is lacking, should not have one.

Lee





06 Sep 2006 07:06:22
Lee Bell
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Sharky wrote

>> Oh come, they're a piece of piss multiple guess questions. I read the
>> book
>> for the first 2, but while we were there, decided to do all of them.
>> Passed the lot. If you've not done much diving and have no common sense,
>> they might be difficult.

> I suppose so, but some of the questions are just unguessable -
> which position *IS* a j valve supposed to be in for filling the tank?
> (still not sure having never seen a j valve!)

How many are you allowed to miss and still be a DM?

How many are you allowed to miss when you're providing professional services
to others?

Lee




06 Sep 2006 07:36:17
Popeye
Re: Dive Master Training ?


"Sharky" <bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4m5npuF4lm0fU1@individual.net...

> Yes, I don't agree with the fast-track - this one (which might be very
> good for all I know) http://home.hetnet.nl/~jelout/divemaster.html
> will fast track you in 7-14 days.
>
> How the hell can you do the study for the exams alone in a week let alone
> the entire course.
> Its a joke.

Just food for thought-

I live 8 hours from the nearest salt water, 10-12 hours from the nearest
"great" diving, and and 20 hours from hi-viz warm year round diving.

Plus I live in the mounains, 2 hours from almost -any- diving.

If I can study at home to skip class room time, what does it matter, if I
can pass the test?

Some people need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.




06 Sep 2006 07:55:03
Lee Bell
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Popeye wrote

> Just food for thought- I live 8 hours from the nearest salt water, 10-12
> hours from the nearest "great" diving, and and 20 hours
> from hi-viz warm year round diving. Plus I live in the mounains, 2 hours
> from almost -any- diving. If I can study at home to skip
> class room time, what does it matter, if I can pass the test? Some people
> need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.

If all you are interested in is the knowledge, you don't need anything but
the knowledge. If you want the professional certification, which the DM
card is, you have to pass the test. If others are to accept the
certification as evidence of knowledge, skills and experience sufficient to
provide professional services to others, the test has to adequately address
the knowledge, skills and experience commensurate with the certification.

You may argue, as you have, that the training PADI provides before
certifying OWI divers is sufficient for all that are given a card, but
you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a week or two of
training, novice to DM, and 60 dives is sufficient time to gain the
knowledge, skills and experience required for performance of the
professional skills the DM card certifies.

Lee




06 Sep 2006 17:34:52
Rick Hughes
Re: Dive Master Training ?


"Rudy Lacchin" <rulaREMOVETHIS@blueyonder.co.uk > wrote in message
news:WJmLg.3234$H03.4@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "Rick Hughes" <rick_hughes@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:dNOdnRYDdoovDGDZnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com...
>> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
>> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view
>> on the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water
>> > ADV
>> > Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
>> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.
>
> With two years experience and about 150 dives under my belt before
> starting, I took five months over my DM course and I thought that was
> about right. I sat through several complete OW courses - classroom, pool
> and open water - and a few AOW and RD courses, and found the experience
> very useful.


To me that sounds sensible ........ to allow someone to commence a DM course
with 0 logged dives seems crazy ...




06 Sep 2006 17:59:51
Deep Reset
Re: Dive Master Training ?

"Nick Eden" <null@localhost.com > wrote in message
news:88rsf210h3fanh8oeh2dnqm46ohqtnurpl@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 16:13:29 +0100, "Nigel Hewitt"
> <nigelhewitt@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Rick Hughes <rick_hughes@btconnect.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
>>> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view
>>> on
>>> the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open water >
>>> ADV
>>>> Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
>>> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.
>>
>>That's enough for Dive Master.
>>
>>The problem is that people have an over inflated view of what
>>Dive Master means. DM means Rescue Diver with a demonstration
>>quality mask clear and 60 dives. There are DMs with thousands
>>of dives and extensive knowledge but that's not because they
>>are a DM but because of what they are like as people.
>>
>>The people I feel sorry for are the poor fast-tracked students
>>who do, as you said, end up wondering where they missed on the
>>'Dive God' injections. They have seen enough of life doing a
>>short internship to know how little they know and yet here they
>>are getting the badge, the big handshake and are being sent out
>>into the big wide world.
>>
>>Those that are worried are the good ones. It's the ones that
>>believe the hype that frighten me.
>
> I met a couple in Sharm once who were both signed off as Dive masters.
> They were really excited because they were there, in Egypt, ready to
> do their first ever sea dives. Apparently they've done every previous
> dive in Wraysbury, near Heathrow.

I doubt it - Wraysbuy isn't deep enough to get even Advanced Open Water.
My tuppence

Deep.




06 Sep 2006 18:01:13
Deep Reset
Re: Dive Master Training ?

"Rick Hughes" <rick_hughes@btconnect.com > wrote in message
news:qMKdndTur84nZWPZnZ2dnUVZ8qCdnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "Rudy Lacchin" <rulaREMOVETHIS@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:WJmLg.3234$H03.4@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>
>> "Rick Hughes" <rick_hughes@btconnect.com> wrote in message
>> news:dNOdnRYDdoovDGDZnZ2dnUVZ8tGdnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> Just completed a dive package at a PADI CDC place in Turkey, quite a few
>>> people on DiveMaster Internships, be interested in this newsgroups view
>>> on the 'Zero to Hero' scheme, takes them from nothing, through Open
>>> water > ADV
>>> > Rescue to Divemaster in 6 weeks ....
>>> But is this enough experience ? and all in one place.
>>
>> With two years experience and about 150 dives under my belt before
>> starting, I took five months over my DM course and I thought that was
>> about right. I sat through several complete OW courses - classroom, pool
>> and open water - and a few AOW and RD courses, and found the experience
>> very useful.
>
>
> To me that sounds sensible ........ to allow someone to commence a DM
> course with 0 logged dives seems crazy ...

And unlikely - prerequisite for starting the course is 20 dives and AOW

Deep.




06 Sep 2006 18:32:39
Joe Hotchkiss
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Deep Reset wrote:
> "Nick Eden" wrote:
>>I met a couple in Sharm once who were both signed off as Dive masters.
>>They were really excited because they were there, in Egypt, ready to
>>do their first ever sea dives. Apparently they've done every previous
>>dive in Wraysbury, near Heathrow.
>
> I doubt it - Wraysbuy isn't deep enough to get even Advanced Open Water.

I've heard similar (possibly apocryphal) stories about Stoney Cove,
which is 36m deep.

--
Joe

http://joe.hotchkiss.com
http://harrowsubaqua.org.uk


06 Sep 2006 16:06:45
Popeye
Re: Dive Master Training ?


"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:KFALg.47938$e9.10766@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Popeye wrote
>
>> Just food for thought- I live 8 hours from the nearest salt water,
>> 10-12 hours from the nearest "great" diving, and 20 hours
>> from hi-viz warm year round diving. Plus I live in the mountains, 2
>> hours from almost -any- diving. If I can study at home to skip
>> class room time, what does it matter, if I can pass the test? Some
>> people need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.
>
> If all you are interested in is the knowledge, you don't need anything but
> the knowledge. If you want the professional certification, which the DM
> card is, you have to pass the test.

That's what I said.

My point was about where you study the bookwork.

> If others are to accept the certification as evidence of knowledge, skills
> and experience sufficient to provide professional services to others, the
> test has to adequately address the knowledge, skills and experience
> commensurate with the certification.

I would note that point, but, for me particularly, I'm never too concerned
about what others accept.

It only matters if -I- accept it.

> You may argue, as you have, that the training PADI provides before
> certifying OWI divers is sufficient for all that are given a card,

That's not -quite- what I argue. :-)

>but you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a week or two
>of training, novice to DM, and 60 dives is sufficient time to gain the
>knowledge, skills and experience required for performance of the
>professional skills the DM card certifies.

And that's not remotely what I said.

-All- I said (here) was, it should be okay to study the bookwork at home,
if you're smart enough to do it, and skip classroom time.

But it raises an interesting point.

Say, for instance, I've been diving tri-mix without a cert (for about 5
years now).

If I can pass any pertinent written test, and perform any relevant "test"
skills, such as I would if I attended a complete class, without any training
whatsoever, should I not be issued the card?



>
> Lee
>




06 Sep 2006 14:24:26
Osprey
Re: Dive Master Training ?


Deep Reset wrote:

>
> And unlikely - prerequisite for starting the course is 20 dives and AOW



but these people were doing the 'zero to hero course' (see start of
thread)


nothing > open water > AOW > Rescue > DM



07 Sep 2006 00:07:49
Sharky
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Lee Bell wrote:
> Sharky wrote
>
>>> Oh come, they're a piece of piss multiple guess questions. I read the
>>> book
>>> for the first 2, but while we were there, decided to do all of them.
>>> Passed the lot. If you've not done much diving and have no common sense,
>>> they might be difficult.
>
>> I suppose so, but some of the questions are just unguessable -
>> which position *IS* a j valve supposed to be in for filling the tank?
>> (still not sure having never seen a j valve!)
>
> How many are you allowed to miss and still be a DM?
>
> How many are you allowed to miss when you're providing professional services
> to others?
>
> Lee
>
>
75% is the pass rate for each exam.
But you're bound to experience stuff common to your area and type of
clients - so I've never seen a J valve, seen very few DIN valves - but
know a shitload about drysuits that Med DM's woulnd't have a clue about.


07 Sep 2006 00:13:03
Sharky
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Popeye wrote:
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:KFALg.47938$e9.10766@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>> Popeye wrote
>>
>>> Just food for thought- I live 8 hours from the nearest salt water,
>>> 10-12 hours from the nearest "great" diving, and 20 hours
>>> from hi-viz warm year round diving. Plus I live in the mountains, 2
>>> hours from almost -any- diving. If I can study at home to skip
>>> class room time, what does it matter, if I can pass the test? Some
>>> people need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.
>> If all you are interested in is the knowledge, you don't need anything but
>> the knowledge. If you want the professional certification, which the DM
>> card is, you have to pass the test.
>
> That's what I said.
>
> My point was about where you study the bookwork.
>
>> If others are to accept the certification as evidence of knowledge, skills
>> and experience sufficient to provide professional services to others, the
>> test has to adequately address the knowledge, skills and experience
>> commensurate with the certification.
>
> I would note that point, but, for me particularly, I'm never too concerned
> about what others accept.
>
> It only matters if -I- accept it.
>
>> You may argue, as you have, that the training PADI provides before
>> certifying OWI divers is sufficient for all that are given a card,
>
> That's not -quite- what I argue. :-)
>
>> but you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a week or two
>> of training, novice to DM, and 60 dives is sufficient time to gain the
>> knowledge, skills and experience required for performance of the
>> professional skills the DM card certifies.
>
> And that's not remotely what I said.
>
> -All- I said (here) was, it should be okay to study the bookwork at home,
> if you're smart enough to do it, and skip classroom time.
>
> But it raises an interesting point.
>
> Say, for instance, I've been diving tri-mix without a cert (for about 5
> years now).
>
> If I can pass any pertinent written test, and perform any relevant "test"
> skills, such as I would if I attended a complete class, without any training
> whatsoever, should I not be issued the card?
>
>
I see where your comping from Popeye, and fair enough, do all the theory
and bookwork at home works for me.
But the context of the original post was zero to hero in X weeks, so you
would need to do ALL of the bookwork for OW, AOW, RESCUE, DM in some
location in X weeks, rather than boning up at home THEN going to the course.









06 Sep 2006 21:16:31
Lee Bell
Re: Dive Master Training ?

>>> Just food for thought- I live 8 hours from the nearest salt water,
>>> 10-12 hours from the nearest "great" diving, and 20 hours
>>> from hi-viz warm year round diving. Plus I live in the mountains, 2
>>> hours from almost -any- diving. If I can study at home to skip
>>> class room time, what does it matter, if I can pass the test? Some
>>> people need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.

>> If all you are interested in is the knowledge, you don't need anything
>> but the knowledge. If you want the professional certification, which the
>> DM card is, you have to pass the test.

> That's what I said.

Not particularly clearly. The topic is dive master training. While what
you describe, without obtaining the card, technically, is DM training, most
would assume that DM training results in a DM certiciation.

> I would note that point, but, for me particularly, I'm never too
> concerned about what others accept.

Since DM is a professional level certification, the whole point of taking
the training tends to be what it means to others. In fact, most of what
differentiates DM training from other training is the elements specifically
designed for acting as a DM, such things as teaching and providing on boat
and in water services. Your point is more valid for a non professional
certification. If the discussion were, about Master Divers rather than Dive
Masters, we'd probably be closer to agreement.

> Say, for instance, I've been diving tri-mix without a cert (for about 5
> years now). If I can pass any pertinent written test, and
> perform any relevant "test" skills, such as I would if I attended a
> complete class, without any training whatsoever, should I not be
> issued the card?

As far as I'm concerned, if you pass a comprehensive written test, you
should be issued the certification. Since the requirement for any
specialized gas training is mostly to satisfy the insurance industry, you'll
have to ask them what their standards are. Regardless, there's a
significant difference between trimix training and DM training. One
certifies your ability to look after your own needs. The other certifies
your ability to look after someone else's.

Lee











07 Sep 2006 09:54:49
Barry
Re: Dive Master Training ?

Popeye wrote:
> "Sharky" <bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4m5npuF4lm0fU1@individual.net...
>
>> Yes, I don't agree with the fast-track - this one (which might be very
>> good for all I know) http://home.hetnet.nl/~jelout/divemaster.html
>> will fast track you in 7-14 days.
>>
>> How the hell can you do the study for the exams alone in a week let alone
>> the entire course.
>> Its a joke.
>
> Just food for thought-
>
> I live 8 hours from the nearest salt water, 10-12 hours from the nearest
> "great" diving, and and 20 hours from hi-viz warm year round diving.
>
> Plus I live in the mounains, 2 hours from almost -any- diving.
>
> If I can study at home to skip class room time, what does it matter, if I
> can pass the test?
>
> Some people need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.

Well, I'd agree in principal - I've been doing a distance learning BSc
degree for the last three years. However, I have to submit six to eight
pieces of work each around 2,000 words every year and sit a three hour
written exam - which checks whether I've really learnt the material or
not. The question is whether the Divemaster exam is sufficient to test
that the material has been properly learnt.


07 Sep 2006 13:21:36
Popeye
Re: Dive Master Training ?

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:FpKLg.38363$y7.28340@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>> Just food for thought- I live 8 hours from the nearest salt water,
>>>> 10-12 hours from the nearest "great" diving, and 20 hours
>>>> from hi-viz warm year round diving. Plus I live in the mountains, 2
>>>> hours from almost -any- diving. If I can study at home to skip
>>>> class room time, what does it matter, if I can pass the test? Some
>>>> people need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.
>
>>> If all you are interested in is the knowledge, you don't need anything
>>> but the knowledge. If you want the professional certification, which
>>> the DM card is, you have to pass the test.
>
>> That's what I said.
>
> Not particularly clearly. The topic is dive master training. While what
> you describe, without obtaining the card, technically, is DM training,
> most would assume that DM training results in a DM certiciation.

"If I can study at home to skip --- >class room time<---, what does it
matter, if I can pass the test? Some people need a class room and an
instructor, and some don't."

"If you want the professional certification, which the DM card is, you
have to pass the test."

>> I would note that point, but, for me particularly, I'm never too
>> concerned about what others accept.
>
> Since DM is a professional level certification, the whole point of taking
> the training tends to be what it means to others.

Not necessarily, either the whole point, -or- what it means to others.

I've been a DM for 8 years, and I've never used the card for anything.

> In fact, most of what differentiates DM training from other training is
> the elements specifically designed for acting as a DM, such things as
> teaching and providing on boat and in water services. Your point is more
> valid for a non professional certification. If the discussion were, about
> Master Divers rather than Dive Masters, we'd probably be closer to
> agreement.
>
>> Say, for instance, I've been diving tri-mix without a cert (for about 5
>> years now). If I can pass any pertinent written test, and
>> perform any relevant "test" skills, such as I would if I attended a
>> complete class, without any training whatsoever, should I not be
>> issued the card?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, if you pass a comprehensive written test, you
> should be issued the certification. Since the requirement for any
> specialized gas training is mostly to satisfy the insurance industry,
> you'll have to ask them what their standards are. Regardless, there's a
> significant difference between trimix training and DM training. One
> certifies your ability to look after your own needs. The other certifies
> your ability to look after someone else's.
>
> Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




07 Sep 2006 13:48:47
Popeye
Re: Dive Master Training ?


"Sharky" <bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4m9301F4rb7pU1@individual.net...
> Popeye wrote:
>> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:KFALg.47938$e9.10766@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>> Popeye wrote
>> If I can pass any pertinent written test, and perform any relevant
>> "test" skills, such as I would if I attended a complete class, without
>> any training whatsoever, should I not be issued the card?
>>
>>
> I see where your comping from Popeye, and fair enough, do all the theory
> and bookwork at home works for me.
> But the context of the original post was zero to hero in X weeks, so you
> would need to do ALL of the bookwork for OW, AOW, RESCUE, DM in some
> location in X weeks, rather than boning up at home THEN going to the
> course.

I wasn't clear, I suppose.

I responded to this:

> Yes, I don't agree with the fast-track - this one (which might be very
> good for all I know) http://home.hetnet.nl/~jelout/divemaster.html
> will fast track you in 7-14 days.
>
> How the hell can you do the study for the exams alone in a week let alone
> the entire course.
> Its a joke.

With this:

If I can study at home to skip class room time, what does it matter, if I
can pass the test?
Some people need a class room and an instructor, and some don't.

But at any rate, a careful review of the URL shows:

The 7-14 plan requires OW, AOW and Medic First Aid, among other things, so
it's really just Rescue and Divemaster in two weeks, not outrageous at -all-
as a full day curriculum (at a dive location), as opposed to (in America,
anyway) 4 hours a night, two nights a week.

From the URL:

Practical Application / Internship(option 1) 6 to 8 weeks
The Internship portion of the Practical Application Module meets both
instructional and experience goals for the PADI Divemaster course by having
candidates supervise and assist divers during training situations. The
philosophy of the internship is for candidates to learn by applying
principles and skills to actual supervision and teaching situations.
Candidate duties may range from assisting with equipment handling and
logistics to assisting a student diver with a problem (under instructor
supervision). If you want to know more just send us an email
dreamdivingmalta@Yahoo.com .

Practical Training Exercises (Option 2) 7 to 14 days
The Practical Training Exercises offer an alternative to an Intern-ship
Ideal when you don't have the time to do an Internship. Practical Training
Exercises afford comparable training and experience because we will simulate
the situations you would encounter. Although the exercises don't provide the
same hands-on experience as an Internship, we can present you with a wide
variety of specific challenges that you may expect in your role as a PADI
Divemaster. ------------- > Since study time will be limited during this
training we strongly recommend to go true the books and make the homework
before participating in the course. If you want to know more, feel free to
send us an email dreamdivingmalta@Yahoo.com .





08 Sep 2006 16:12:40
Pete Young
Re: Dive Master Training ?

On 2006-09-05, Nigel Hewitt <nigelhewitt@hotmail.co.uk > wrote:
>
> That's enough for Dive Master.

More than enough. How many dives do you need to know how to assemble
a bcd and make coffee?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Young pete@antipope.dot.org Remove dot. to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"

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15 Sep 2006 23:04:51
Dan L
Re: Dive Master Training ?

On 2006-09-09 03:12:40 +1200, Pete Young <pete@server30001.uk2net.com > said:

> On 2006-09-05, Nigel Hewitt <nigelhewitt@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> That's enough for Dive Master.
>
> More than enough. How many dives do you need to know how to assemble
> a bcd and make coffee?

more that you need to carry cylinders and buy drinks for the instructor ;- >