27 Oct 2003 23:55:47
David Walker
Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

Hi
Does anyone know the rough cost of getting a reg changed from a-clamp to
DIN? It'd be an Oceanic reg, can't find any prices for these sorts of
conversions anywhere - I assume it can be done, just wanted a vague price to
see if its going to be worth it or not.
Ta

David




28 Oct 2003 00:16:28
Bardo
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN


"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:bnkbem$lmo$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
> Hi
> Does anyone know the rough cost of getting a reg changed from a-clamp to
> DIN? It'd be an Oceanic reg, can't find any prices for these sorts of
> conversions anywhere - I assume it can be done, just wanted a vague price
to
> see if its going to be worth it or not.

About 6 months ago I had two sets of Oceanic DX4s converted to DIN - as I
remember, it cost about 45 per first stage. Note that this can only be
carried out by an Oceanic service agent...




28 Oct 2003 00:33:58
Adam Walker
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

Just changed my two sets of Apeks regs from a clamp to din.
I was lucky enough to be on a boat out of Brighton and meet someone
who had two ne Apeks DINs for 5 each. Excellent value I thought!!

The job of converting them only took 5 minutes, at home.

So now I have nice DIN regs no more mucking about with tempermental o
rings.


28 Oct 2003 08:39:26
David Walker
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> > Does anyone know the rough cost of getting a reg changed from a-clamp to
> > DIN? It'd be an Oceanic reg, can't find any prices for these sorts of
> > conversions anywhere - I assume it can be done, just wanted a vague
price
> to
> > see if its going to be worth it or not.
>
> About 6 months ago I had two sets of Oceanic DX4s converted to DIN - as I
> remember, it cost about 45 per first stage. Note that this can only be
> carried out by an Oceanic service agent...

Oh OK - thanks. I'll give up on that idea then! I was thinking of getting
a second hand new reg (the ebay type where they sell new stuff), but with
that cost to convert it I might as well get it from a shop.

David




01 Nov 2003 21:13:42
Tony
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN


Should have bought Apeks, as the conversion kit is about 30 retail and a
piece of pi*s to fit (needs one large ajustable spanner to remove A clamp
and a one metric allen key to fit DIN fitting).

Better still, only buy your regs with DIN as original fitting as most
manufactureres dont have a different price for A clamp or DIN.




"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:bnkbem$lmo$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
> Hi
> Does anyone know the rough cost of getting a reg changed from a-clamp to
> DIN? It'd be an Oceanic reg, can't find any prices for these sorts of
> conversions anywhere - I assume it can be done, just wanted a vague price
to
> see if its going to be worth it or not.
> Ta
>
> David
>
>




02 Nov 2003 12:33:12
David Walker
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> Should have bought Apeks, as the conversion kit is about 30 retail and a
> piece of pi*s to fit (needs one large ajustable spanner to remove A clamp
> and a one metric allen key to fit DIN fitting).

They're all that easy to fit from what I can tell.
Apparently the kit for Oceanic is 51.50!

> Better still, only buy your regs with DIN as original fitting as most
> manufactureres dont have a different price for A clamp or DIN.

The only reason I was looking was because there was a reg on ebay,
apparently brand new, for around 100 when they should be around 220. I
asked the bloke a question though, and he didn't seem to know anything about
regs, he wouldn't say where they came from, and they had no warranty, so I
decided they most likely fell off the back of a lorry - by the time i'd
converted it to DIN and done a service i'd be no better off than buying new
anyway.

Now i'm going to get a new Oceanic CDX5 / GT for 179, already in DIN
format.

David




03 Nov 2003 03:02:08
Vader
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

Can I manually change my Mares Abyss regulator from an A-clamp to a
DIN, or do I need to get ripped off by taking my regs to a dive shop
instead?

The Abyss is a really good reg, but bloody expensive to maintain. I
should have purchased an Apex instead!

TIA.
M.


03 Nov 2003 11:19:50
David Walker
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> Can I manually change my Mares Abyss regulator from an A-clamp to a
> DIN, or do I need to get ripped off by taking my regs to a dive shop
> instead?

Not sure about Mares, but from what I understood with my Oceanic reg was I
took it in, and thay'd do it for me. As it happens the dive shop I went to
said he'd fit it for free, so that wasn't an issue, but the cost of the part
itself was the 51.50, which is just stupid money really. You can buy Apeks
DS4 first stages for less than 20 more!
If you could get the part, it would be easy to convert yourself, but whether
they are allowed to sell it to you i'm not sure - it may be like some (or
all?) reg service kits where only authorised repair people can buy it and
they aren't allowed to sell it on.

David




03 Nov 2003 11:51:59
CAS
What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:bo5du7$aig$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
> > Can I manually change my Mares Abyss regulator from an A-clamp to a
> > DIN, or do I need to get ripped off by taking my regs to a dive shop
> > instead?
>
<snip >
> If you could get the part, it would be easy to convert yourself, but
whether
> they are allowed to sell it to you i'm not sure - it may be like some (or
> all?) reg service kits where only authorised repair people can buy it and
> they aren't allowed to sell it on.
>
> David
>
>

I know this has been done to death on the ranting about rip-off merchants
and the fact that the "rules" make no sense and have very little (if any)
legal standing, but...

...when I was looking for bits for a low pressure inflator I was asked on
numerous occasions (when trying to get just the parts) "Are you a service
technician?"

Now, I could happily have just said - "Well, yes! Of course I am" and hoped
they would send the bits or I could make myself a "service technician".

Does anyone know what courses this would involve?

Is it a case of each manufacturer has its own courses? This I seriously
doubt - can you imagine the cost for a LDS and all those courses!

Is something like TDI's "Service Technician" course good enough?

Just curious - I want to be able to service my own gear when it's due next
year...

CAS

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03 Nov 2003 12:14:13
Keith Lawrence
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com > wrote ...

> <snip>
> > If you could get the part, it would be easy to convert
> > yourself, but whether they are allowed to sell it to
> > you i'm not sure - it may be like some (or all?) reg
> > service kits where only authorised repair people can
> > buy it and they aren't allowed to sell it on.

> I know this has been done to death...

Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no backing or
requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops fault either. They
are cartel rules imposed by the importers/manufacturers to protect their
market and any shops breaking those rules see their supplies of stock and
parts cut off. Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything that
anybody can do about it.

> Now, I could happily have just said - "Well,
> yes! Of course I am" and hoped they would send the
> bits or I could make myself a "service technician".

> Does anyone know what courses this would involve?

It depends, but for "highly trained service technician" read somebody who
has sat through an day or an afternoon course with no formal assessment or
exam at the end. Just attending the course is enough.

BUT - you wont get on one as an individual! They only accept applicants
sponsored by commercial LDS's, they need to do that to perpetuate the
cartel.

> Is something like TDI's "Service Technician" course
> good enough?

Doubtful, you just need to get friendly with your LDS owner.

> Just curious - I want to be able to service my own
> gear when it's due next year...

Cue the usual suspects to tell you why you shouldn't...

Before anybody thinks otherwise I'm not having a go at the LDS's out there,
many of them provide a damn good service with properly trained and
experienced technicians who do a good job. I use them myself, there is no
way that I would ever consider ripping my first stages apart and trying DIY
on them. But that's my personal choice, what I take issue with is the denial
of that personal choice to people who HAVE got the skills and the knowledge
but are denied that choice by the manufacturers cartels.

Regards

Keith L




03 Nov 2003 13:39:29
David Walker
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no backing
or
> requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops fault either. They
> are cartel rules imposed by the importers/manufacturers to protect their
> market and any shops breaking those rules see their supplies of stock and
> parts cut off. Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything
that
> anybody can do about it.

I found the same when I bought my Vyper earlier in the year - every single
shop sold it for 228, not a penny more, not a penny less! After talking to
someone in one of the shops though, apparently that is the price they are
told they had to sell it at by Suunto. If they wanted to sell it for less,
for example under a price-matching policy, they had to report to Suunto that
they were selling it for less, and also had to report where else was doing
this lower price.

Thankfully, looking at prices recently it seems like the practice is
reducing, with regs and torches i've been looking at with quite varied
prices, and shops willing to make offers on them. Even Suunto seem to have
relaxed their rules now, with much more variable pricing than before.

David




03 Nov 2003 14:00:32
Keith Lawrence
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com > wrote...

in message news:bo5lqi$e5v$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk...
> > ...They are cartel rules imposed by the importers/manufacturers
> > to protect their market and any shops breaking those rules see
> > their supplies of stock and parts cut off...

> I found the same when I bought my Vyper earlier in the
> year - every single shop sold it for 228, not a penny
> more, not a penny less! After talking to someone in one
> of the shops though, apparently that is the price they are
> told they had to sell it at by Suunto...

It's known a price fixing, also illegal.

> Thankfully, looking at prices recently it seems like the
> practice is reducing, with regs and torches i've been
> looking at with quite varied prices, and shops willing
> to make offers on them. Even Suunto seem to have
> relaxed their rules now, with much more variable
> pricing than before.

You may well be seeing "grey" goods as well, stuff imported directly from
Europe and beyond bypassing the cartel of the UK importers and distributers.
They don't like that either, "not guaranteed" is the normal cry but I
believe that is also illegal under EU rules as well!

Welcome to the dive industry. Don't blame your LDS either, it's not their
fault and they are ordinary people trying to make a living just like the
rest of us. They are caught up in this just as much as we are. There are
some enlightened ones around who will ignore these illegal "rules" for
divers that they know and they deserve all of the support and business that
it puts their way.

But if you find one =DON'T= post it publicly to this or any other group!
Tell your close and trusted friends by all means but the importers make life
difficult if they find out.

K




03 Nov 2003 14:51:24
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Keith Lawrence" wrote

> > I found the same when I bought my Vyper earlier in the
> > year - every single shop sold it for 228, not a penny
> > more, not a penny less! After talking to someone in one
> > of the shops though, apparently that is the price they are
> > told they had to sell it at by Suunto...
>
> It's known a price fixing, also illegal.

Are you sure? I'm not familiar enough with UK law to know, but on this side
of the pond, I think price fixing involves two or more unrelated competitors
agreeing to a set price rather than an agreement between the manufacturer
and his retailers. Halcyon has been what they call a "Fair Trade Company"
for as long as I can remember and so has Scuba Pro. This kind of think
tends to depend on the product being in demand sufficietly for consumers to
but it even at a higher than normal price rather than purchase an
alternative product.

> Welcome to the dive industry. Don't blame your LDS either, it's not their
> fault and they are ordinary people trying to make a living just like the
> rest of us. They are caught up in this just as much as we are. There are
> some enlightened ones around who will ignore these illegal "rules" for
> divers that they know and they deserve all of the support and business
that
> it puts their way.

It's as much their fault as anybody's. They accept the fixing and pass the
unfair price on to their customers for the same profit motive the
manufacturer has.

Lee




03 Nov 2003 15:14:30
David Walker
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> > It's known a price fixing, also illegal.
>
> Are you sure? I'm not familiar enough with UK law to know, but on this
side
> of the pond, I think price fixing involves two or more unrelated
competitors
> agreeing to a set price rather than an agreement between the manufacturer
> and his retailers. Halcyon has been what they call a "Fair Trade Company"
> for as long as I can remember and so has Scuba Pro. This kind of think
> tends to depend on the product being in demand sufficietly for consumers
to
> but it even at a higher than normal price rather than purchase an
> alternative product.

You're right in that price fixing often refers to agreements between
manufacturers to keep their prices artificially high, above the competitive
market price. It can also apply to individual manufacturers though,
particularly with more specialist equipment such as diving kit. They can
tell the shops to sell it at whatever price the manufacturer wants - of
course that will include a margin for the shop, but the reason they do it is
because if one shop drops its price, others will want to as well. In theory
the shops shouldn't mind, because they have their profit margin protected.
In practice, shops compete on being able to supply cheaper than their
competitors, which means that the larger places which buy in bulk would be
making a bigger margin, but really they'd be better off reducing the price,
and selling more. Basically, this sort of price fixing means the
manufacturer maintains complete control over their products, giving them
that bit extra power to dictate what happens.


> > Welcome to the dive industry. Don't blame your LDS either, it's not
their
> > fault and they are ordinary people trying to make a living just like the
> > rest of us. They are caught up in this just as much as we are. There are
> > some enlightened ones around who will ignore these illegal "rules" for
> > divers that they know and they deserve all of the support and business
> that
> > it puts their way.
>
> It's as much their fault as anybody's. They accept the fixing and pass
the
> unfair price on to their customers for the same profit motive the
> manufacturer has.

The dive shops don't really have much of a choice - they can either accept
the terms, and sell at the fixed price, or reject all products from that
manufacturer. If that happens to be a company who'se products are popular,
like Suunto's are, then that would be a big disadvantage for the dive shop.
If it was a smaller company who aren't very well known anyway, then not
stocking their products makes little difference to the shop, and they can
say no.

Quite why the manufacturers are allowed to get away with it is beyond me,
but it just demonstrates that the bodies which are supposed to protect the
consumer from this sort of activity - Trading Standards, the EU Competition
Commission, etc - just don't have the necessary power or resources to deal
with it. Look at how long they have worked to get the hugely fixed car
market to open up to market forces, and that is still just beginning to take
effect. In fact, look at the most powerful and open cartel in the world -
Opec! Everyone knows about it, they work openly, and they fix prices across
almost every oil producer on the planet, yet nothing has been done to stop
it. For a small market like the diving industry there's little reason for
them to spend their time sorting it out, there's much bigger markets to fix
first - we'll be stuck with this for a long time yet!

David





03 Nov 2003 16:42:30
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"David Walker" wrote

> > It's as much their fault as anybody's. They accept the fixing and pass
> > the unfair price on to their customers for the same profit motive the
> > manufacturer has.
>
> The dive shops don't really have much of a choice - they can either accept
> the terms, and sell at the fixed price, or reject all products from that
> manufacturer. If that happens to be a company who'se products are
popular,
> like Suunto's are, then that would be a big disadvantage for the dive
shop.
> If it was a smaller company who aren't very well known anyway, then not
> stocking their products makes little difference to the shop, and they can
> say no.

They have the same choice everybody else does, chose somebody else's
product. Suunto's are popular and, worse, recommended by GUE/DIR. They've
got a guaranteed market which is being told that doing it right is the only
way, no matter what the price. They're a great bottom timer and depth
guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a notrox computer pretty
much stinks.

Lee




03 Nov 2003 17:00:50
Dave Appleby
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com > wrote in message
They're a great bottom timer and depth
> guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a notrox computer pretty
> much stinks.
>
> Lee

Typo or Freudian slip Lee?


DaveA



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03 Nov 2003 17:41:22
David Walker
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> They have the same choice everybody else does, chose somebody else's
> product. Suunto's are popular and, worse, recommended by GUE/DIR.
They've
> got a guaranteed market which is being told that doing it right is the
only
> way, no matter what the price. They're a great bottom timer and depth
> guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a notrox computer
pretty
> much stinks.

Point is, if a dive shop knows people want Suunto computers, then they will
want to stock Suunto computers, even if that means agreeing to restrictive
terms. If they don't stock them, the end user who wants a Suunto computer
goes to another dive shop for that, and most likely while they are there
will buy other things too.

David




03 Nov 2003 18:37:29
Pete Melbourne
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:51:24 GMT, "Lee Bell"
<leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com > wrote:

>> It's known a price fixing, also illegal.
>
>Are you sure? I'm not familiar enough with UK law to know, but on this side
>of the pond, I think price fixing involves two or more unrelated competitors
>agreeing to a set price rather than an agreement between the manufacturer
>and his retailers. Halcyon has been what they call a "Fair Trade Company"
>for as long as I can remember and so has Scuba Pro. This kind of think
>tends to depend on the product being in demand sufficietly for consumers to
>but it even at a higher than normal price rather than purchase an
>alternative product.

That's illegal in Europe as well - a major toy manufacturer and a
number of retailers were fined huge amounts recently for doing exactly
this. Bottom line is you can not do anything legally to stop
competition except for certain controlled markets such as pharmacies.

The problem is it is very difficult to prove....



Pete
diving 'at' melbourne 'dot' me 'dot' uk


03 Nov 2003 20:48:21
Keith S.
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of

Keith Lawrence wrote:

> Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no backing or
> requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops fault either. They
> are cartel rules imposed by the importers/manufacturers to protect their
> market and any shops breaking those rules see their supplies of stock and
> parts cut off. Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything that
> anybody can do about it.

It's not illegal at all. If you think it is I have several letters
from the Office of Fair Trading which describe why it isn't.

- Keith








03 Nov 2003 21:08:05
David Walker
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> > Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no backing
or
> > requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops fault either.
They
> > are cartel rules imposed by the importers/manufacturers to protect their
> > market and any shops breaking those rules see their supplies of stock
and
> > parts cut off. Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything
that
> > anybody can do about it.
>
> It's not illegal at all. If you think it is I have several letters
> from the Office of Fair Trading which describe why it isn't.

... which is why? It is against consumer interests, the sort of behaviour
which they are supposed to prevent. Makes the OFT and Competition
Commission even more pointless than I thought.

David




03 Nov 2003 21:59:35
Nigel Hewitt
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

David Walker <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com > wrote:
>>> Yup, many times. The facts are quite simple - this "rule" has no
>>> backing or requirement whatsoever in law. It's not the dive shops
>>> fault either. They are cartel rules imposed by the
>>> importers/manufacturers to protect their market and any shops
>>> breaking those rules see their supplies of stock and parts cut off.
>>> Yes it is illegal, no there doesn't seem to be anything that
>>> anybody can do about it.
>>
>> It's not illegal at all. If you think it is I have several letters
>> from the Office of Fair Trading which describe why it isn't.
>
> ... which is why? It is against consumer interests, the sort of
> behaviour which they are supposed to prevent. Makes the OFT and
> Competition Commission even more pointless than I thought.

That about sums it up. The OFT does not enforce fair trading
it enforces the laws on fair trading. If there isn't a specific
law there is nothing to enforce.

Pointless? Agreed. Moral? Dubious. Fair trade? Your kidding.
Illegal? Sorry, No.

nigelH




03 Nov 2003 22:17:44
David Walker
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> That about sums it up. The OFT does not enforce fair trading
> it enforces the laws on fair trading. If there isn't a specific
> law there is nothing to enforce.

Useful!
"Yes, we enforce all the laws on fair trading and consumer protection"...
"Ah good, so you'll do something about it then?"...
"Ermmm, no, sorry - there isn't a law for us to enforce, but if there was,
we would!"

> Pointless? Agreed. Moral? Dubious. Fair trade? Your kidding.
> Illegal? Sorry, No.

Life's not fair, but we'll survive! :o)

David


* By the way, sort of on the same point, if anyone has any plans /
measurements for making a pony clamp, they'd be much appreciated. I've
decided 40+ for two bits of bent steel seems a bit excessive, so i'm trying
to get my dad to make me one. Only problem is he's 200 miles away, and he
doesn't have any cylinders to work from, and the pictures of the available
ones don't give much help in the way of actually making something that
works. Thanks muchly!
* Also thought about getting a home-made torch done, but thought that was a
bit adventurous!




04 Nov 2003 09:29:51
Keith S.
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of

David Walker wrote:

> ... which is why? It is against consumer interests, the sort of behaviour
> which they are supposed to prevent. Makes the OFT and Competition
> Commission even more pointless than I thought.

Basically the law here is the Competition Act 1998 which introduced
two prohibitions. Chapter 1 prohibition covers agreements that have
the effect of distorting competition in the UK, Chapter 2 prohibition
covers conduct which amounts to an abuse of a dominant position in
the UK.

Chapter 1 does not apply unless the agreement has an appreciable
effect on competition in the UK, this is taken as the parties
involved having a market share of 25% or greater. As Apeks do
not have such a market share then this prohibition does not
apply.

Abuse of Chapter 2 can only be upheld if the firm is dominant
in the market, a firm is dominant if it can behave to an
appreciable extent independently of its competitors and ultimately
of its consumers. If its market share is less than 40% it is
unlikely to be considered dominant.

Refusal to supply even if the company was dominant may be found
not in breach of Chapter 2 if justification can be found, e.g if
there are significant safety issues involved. And this is the
reason Apeks give to not supply.

So, it may be against consumer interests but unless the law is
changed there is nothing the OFT can do. And I doubt the law
will be relaxed, if anything governments will introduce yet more
laws to prevent you from doing what you want.

- Keith



04 Nov 2003 09:39:14
CAS
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Keith S." <false@ntlworld.com > wrote in message
news:bo7rif$19sii1$1@ID-169434.news.uni-berlin.de...
> David Walker wrote:
>
> > ... which is why? It is against consumer interests, the sort of
behaviour
> > which they are supposed to prevent. Makes the OFT and Competition
> > Commission even more pointless than I thought.
>
> Basically the law here is the Competition Act 1998 which introduced
> two prohibitions. Chapter 1 prohibition covers agreements that have
> the effect of distorting competition in the UK, Chapter 2 prohibition
> covers conduct which amounts to an abuse of a dominant position in
> the UK.
>
> Chapter 1 does not apply unless the agreement has an appreciable
> effect on competition in the UK, this is taken as the parties
> involved having a market share of 25% or greater. As Apeks do
> not have such a market share then this prohibition does not
> apply.
>
> Abuse of Chapter 2 can only be upheld if the firm is dominant
> in the market, a firm is dominant if it can behave to an
> appreciable extent independently of its competitors and ultimately
> of its consumers. If its market share is less than 40% it is
> unlikely to be considered dominant.
>
> Refusal to supply even if the company was dominant may be found
> not in breach of Chapter 2 if justification can be found, e.g if
> there are significant safety issues involved. And this is the
> reason Apeks give to not supply.
>
> So, it may be against consumer interests but unless the law is
> changed there is nothing the OFT can do. And I doubt the law
> will be relaxed, if anything governments will introduce yet more
> laws to prevent you from doing what you want.
>
> - Keith
>

Very insightful... b'stards!

So really the only way to ensure that your regulator is serviced properly is
to pay for afore mentioned and heavily double-quoted "highly trained service
technician" to do it then get it home and strip it down again to make sure
he hasn't ballsed it up...

Tops...

CAS
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http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004
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http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/




04 Nov 2003 09:44:18
mattbin
Re: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"David Walker" <wbsdavenews@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:<bo5du7$aig$1@wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk>...
> > Can I manually change my Mares Abyss regulator from an A-clamp to a
> > DIN, or do I need to get ripped off by taking my regs to a dive shop
> > instead?
>
> Not sure about Mares, but from what I understood with my Oceanic reg was I
> took it in, and thay'd do it for me. As it happens the dive shop I went to
> said he'd fit it for free, so that wasn't an issue, but the cost of the part
> itself was the 51.50, which is just stupid money really. You can buy Apeks
> DS4 first stages for less than 20 more!
> If you could get the part, it would be easy to convert yourself, but whether
> they are allowed to sell it to you i'm not sure - it may be like some (or
> all?) reg service kits where only authorised repair people can buy it and
> they aren't allowed to sell it on.
>
> David

My oceanic was done by Deep Dive Luton for 35 parts and labour incl.
Matt


05 Nov 2003 13:05:58
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Dave Appleby" wrote

> > They're a great bottom timer and depth
> > guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a notrox computer
pretty
> > much stinks.

> Typo or Freudian slip Lee?

Hmmm, darned if I know. I'll check with my keepers.




05 Nov 2003 13:09:01
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"David Walker" wrote

> > They have the same choice everybody else does, chose somebody else's
> > product. Suunto's are popular and, worse, recommended by GUE/DIR.
> > They've got a guaranteed market which is being told that doing it right
is the
> > only way, no matter what the price. They're a great bottom timer and
depth
> > guage, but, personally, I think their operation as a nitrox computer
> > pretty
> > much stinks.

> Point is, if a dive shop knows people want Suunto computers, then they
will
> want to stock Suunto computers, even if that means agreeing to restrictive
> terms. If they don't stock them, the end user who wants a Suunto computer
> goes to another dive shop for that, and most likely while they are there
> will buy other things too.

That's true, but not the point. The comment was that shops should not be
blamed. The point is, that when they make a business decision to accept
conditions at the expense of their customers, they should be accountable for
it. They made the choice and any backlash they get as a result is their
just reward for that choice.

Lee





05 Nov 2003 13:12:04
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"David Walker" wrote

> Useful!
> "Yes, we enforce all the laws on fair trading and consumer protection"...
> "Ah good, so you'll do something about it then?"...
> "Ermmm, no, sorry - there isn't a law for us to enforce, but if there was,
> we would!"
>
> > Pointless? Agreed. Moral? Dubious. Fair trade? Your kidding.
> > Illegal? Sorry, No.
>
> Life's not fair, but we'll survive! :o)

Of course. On the other hand, if the diving community declines to accept
"fair trade price" products or purchase from shops that agree to such terms,
this particular kind of price fixing won't survive.

Lee




05 Nov 2003 13:22:10
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"CAS" wrote

> So really the only way to ensure that your regulator is serviced properly
is
> to pay for afore mentioned and heavily double-quoted "highly trained
service
> technician" to do it then get it home and strip it down again to make sure
> he hasn't ballsed it up...

I would think this one would be fairly easy to get around, particularly in a
club system. Somebody take the training and provide the service at cost.
Remove the safety issue and you remove the reason you can't get parts. It's
a win/win for everybody. The club gains an asset and a marketing tool. The
trainee gets the knowledge and skills. While the manufacturer may not
initially realize it, it's a win for them too. They got a whole club that
is predisposed to buying their products.

Lee




05 Nov 2003 13:21:24
Lazarus X
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 22:17:44 -0000, "David Walker"
<wbsdavenews@hotmail.com > wrote:

>> That about sums it up. The OFT does not enforce fair trading
>> it enforces the laws on fair trading. If there isn't a specific
>> law there is nothing to enforce.
>
>Useful!
>"Yes, we enforce all the laws on fair trading and consumer protection"...
>"Ah good, so you'll do something about it then?"...
>"Ermmm, no, sorry - there isn't a law for us to enforce, but if there was,
>we would!"

I wonder if they have any jobs going? It sounds like I would have
plenty of time to go diving ;-)

Laz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A foolproof method for sculpting an Elephant:
First, get a huge block of marble. Then, chip away
everything that doesn't look like an Elephant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Change "nospam" to "ntlworld" to reply.


05 Nov 2003 13:47:07
beanie
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN


"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:6Q6qb.10113$9M3.2270@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "CAS" wrote
>
> > So really the only way to ensure that your regulator is serviced
properly
> is
> > to pay for afore mentioned and heavily double-quoted "highly trained
> service
> > technician" to do it then get it home and strip it down again to make
sure
> > he hasn't ballsed it up...
>
> I would think this one would be fairly easy to get around, particularly in
a
> club system. Somebody take the training and provide the service at cost.
> Remove the safety issue and you remove the reason you can't get parts.
It's
> a win/win for everybody. The club gains an asset and a marketing tool.
The
> trainee gets the knowledge and skills. While the manufacturer may not
> initially realize it, it's a win for them too. They got a whole club that
> is predisposed to buying their products.
>
if only..
it was that easy
I don't believe that a member of the public can go on a manufactures course
I think they have to be 'sponsored by a dive shop




05 Nov 2003 13:56:57
Frank Bruce
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:6Q6qb.10113$9M3.2270@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> I would think this one would be fairly easy to get around, particularly in
a
> club system. Somebody take the training and provide the service at cost.
> Remove the safety issue and you remove the reason you can't get parts.
It's
> a win/win for everybody. The club gains an asset and a marketing tool.
The
> trainee gets the knowledge and skills. While the manufacturer may not
> initially realize it, it's a win for them too. They got a whole club that
> is predisposed to buying their products.
>
> Lee

{Thread Yawn}
Lee,

The issue is that clubs; The dive shops here are typically run by people
that were from clubs, as clubs and not businesses and as such you get the
usual bull and politics - lets just take the fantastic idea of selling stuff
at less than you buy it for... nobody wins with an unsustainable business
model. Hence a number of suppliers will and do refuse to sell to "shops"
that do this, as these "shops" cannot forfill the requirements of backup and
support required, nor the requirements for products liability, don't hold
stock etc etc - because they do not have the business model in their
charging policy to support this.

When clubs "market" themselves and "sell products" they cease to be "a
collection of like minded individuals" they have taken the first step
towards being a business, they need to behave and account for themselves in
that way - to present a balance - just so nobody believes I'm having a go at
"clubs" - "shops" need to behave like professional businesses.

What we have _typically_ is the worst of both, with a typical diver attitude
of "cheapest is best" which I've always found odd about life support
equipment. I didn't believe that Americans really had a sense of humour or
understood sarcasm, until I heard the PADI video statement "Divers are a
special group of social people" - a truism, that I'm confident was not
intended as I now interpret and regurgitate it.

/FAB
http://www.e-aquanauts.com
http://www.witteringdivers.co.uk
http://www.vobsterquay.co.uk




05 Nov 2003 14:35:56
Pete Young
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

Frank Bruce <fbruce@cruelmail.com > writes:

>usual bull and politics - lets just take the fantastic idea of selling stuff
>at less than you buy it for...

I don't think that anyone is advocating that: I'm not asking
manufacturers to sell stuff at less than they buy it.

I think Lee has a good point: why shouldn't a club be able to carry out
equipment servicing of the club's own equipment, provided that the
people doing the work have recieved (and paid for) the same training
as the people in the shops?

Why shouldn't that service be extended to members of the club who own
similar equipment? After all there are no onerous pre-requisites to
be trained in regulator maintenance - dive shops can take people off
the street, so why shouldn't, for example, a time-served mechanical
engineering apprentice with a degree in engineering and 20 years
experience be considered suitable with the right training?

>When clubs "market" themselves and "sell products" they cease to be "a
>collection of like minded individuals" they have taken the first step
>towards being a business, they need to behave and account for themselves in
>that way

Clubs are are already in competition with shops. Without members the
clubs will die, and what we are seeing is recent years is a growing
number of people who have their diving organised for them by a dive
shop rather than by a club. Unless the clubs are able to market
themselves they will not recruit and maintain members, and yes you're
right in order to do this properly there are many aspects of running a
modern dive club which do require the club to behave as a business.

>What we have _typically_ is the worst of both, with a typical diver attitude
>of "cheapest is best" which I've always found odd about life support
>equipment.

Me too. This for once has nothing to do with 'cheapest is best' and
everything to do with 'best quality is best'. Who has the higher
motivation to ensure that the servicing work on a piece of life
support equipment has been done to the highest possible standard: a
minimum wage employee with minimal experience and training who may not
even have met the user of the equipment, or the user himself?

Regards,

Pete

--
____________________________________________________________________
Pete Young pete@antipope.org Remove dot. to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"



05 Nov 2003 15:08:56
Frank Bruce
Re: Individuals or Clubs doing their own servicing.....

"Pete Young" <pete@antipope.dot.org > wrote in message
news:bob1sc$7qb$1@visp.bt.co.uk...

> I think Lee has a good point: why shouldn't a club be able to carry out
> equipment servicing of the club's own equipment, provided that the
> people doing the work have recieved (and paid for) the same training
> as the people in the shops?
>
> Why shouldn't that service be extended to members of the club who own
> similar equipment? After all there are no onerous pre-requisites to
> be trained in regulator maintenance - dive shops can take people off
> the street, so why shouldn't, for example, a time-served mechanical
> engineering apprentice with a degree in engineering and 20 years
> experience be considered suitable with the right training?

I can see no reason and I am aware that a couple of clubs local to me have
service/spares only accounts with manufacturers.

Their own purchasing decisions may be influenced by their ability to
maintain their own equipment.

I would hope that the individual(s) or club has all the correct tools,
processes and insurance(s) to cover themselves in the event of...... as a
business would/should, but as I finnished "Divers are a group of _special_
social people", the very same people have used drain cleaner to clean BCDs
and car grease to lube regs.....this weekend I opened a "just been serviced"
ebay bargin to find it full of 3in1 or similar.

Maybe the manufacturers are unwilling to accept this aspect/ allow to act as
agent / or believe that they can deal adequately / or have the
infrastructure too deal / with those time-served mechanical engineering
apprentice(s) with a degree in engineering and 20 years experience

Don't get me wrong - conversly I've seen some really vfery very dodgy
servicing from "professionals" but there is recourse for that.

/FAB




05 Nov 2003 15:19:32
Frank Bruce
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which

"Pete Young" <pete@antipope.dot.org > wrote in message
news:bob1sc$7qb$1@visp.bt.co.uk...

> Clubs are are already in competition with shops. Without members the
> clubs will die, and what we are seeing is recent years is a growing
> number of people who have their diving organised for them by a dive
> shop rather than by a club. Unless the clubs are able to market
> themselves they will not recruit and maintain members, and yes you're
> right in order to do this properly there are many aspects of running a
> modern dive club which do require the club to behave as a business.

I thought a club was this "collection of likeminded individuals" when there
are no more "likeminded individuals" surely the club should die. If it's a
business then lets level the playing field and remove the funding and grants
used to compete against busnesses.

There are many good reasons for a club that are not business competative -
personally I'd have said it was better to play on those strengths and not
try and compete on someones elses terms.

/FAB
former BSAC member and club chairman.




05 Nov 2003 15:51:02
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"beanie" wrote
> > I would think this one would be fairly easy to get around, particularly
in
> a
> > club system. Somebody take the training and provide the service at
cost.
> > Remove the safety issue and you remove the reason you can't get parts.
> It's
> > a win/win for everybody. The club gains an asset and a marketing tool.
> The
> > trainee gets the knowledge and skills. While the manufacturer may not
> > initially realize it, it's a win for them too. They got a whole club
that
> > is predisposed to buying their products.

> if only..
> it was that easy
> I don't believe that a member of the public can go on a manufactures
course
> I think they have to be 'sponsored by a dive shop

Now that sounds like restraint of trade to me. I presume that your dive
clubs have an official charter of some sort. If you were here, you would
certainly be encorporated and a non profit social organization. If you are,
why would you have to be a "shop" to be qualfied to service equipment?
What's the difference between a shop that provides services to divers in
exchange for payment and a club based corporation that does the same?

You never know what you can do until you try.

Lee




05 Nov 2003 15:58:34
Nick Bown
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

Lee Bell <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com > wrote:

> Of course. On the other hand, if the diving community declines to accept
> "fair trade price" products or purchase from shops that agree to such terms,
> this particular kind of price fixing won't survive.

And neither, probably, will that small LDS on your doorstep which services your
equipment but doesn't have enough financial clout to get the kind of discounts
the bulk-buyers get (so can't pass them on to you and looses revenue to them when
you buy your equipment cheaper from the big boys).

Nick


05 Nov 2003 16:00:04
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Frank Bruce" <fbruce@cruelmail.com > wrote in message
news:3fa9019f$0$2386$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:6Q6qb.10113$9M3.2270@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> > I would think this one would be fairly easy to get around, particularly
in
> a
> > club system. Somebody take the training and provide the service at
cost.
> > Remove the safety issue and you remove the reason you can't get parts.
> It's
> > a win/win for everybody. The club gains an asset and a marketing tool.
> The
> > trainee gets the knowledge and skills. While the manufacturer may not
> > initially realize it, it's a win for them too. They got a whole club
that
> > is predisposed to buying their products.
> >
> > Lee
>
> {Thread Yawn}
> Lee,
>
> The issue is that clubs; The dive shops here are typically run by people
> that were from clubs, as clubs and not businesses and as such you get the
> usual bull and politics - lets just take the fantastic idea of selling
stuff
> at less than you buy it for... nobody wins with an unsustainable business
> model. Hence a number of suppliers will and do refuse to sell to "shops"
> that do this, as these "shops" cannot forfill the requirements of backup
and
> support required, nor the requirements for products liability, don't hold
> stock etc etc - because they do not have the business model in their
> charging policy to support this.
>
> When clubs "market" themselves and "sell products" they cease to be "a
> collection of like minded individuals" they have taken the first step
> towards being a business, they need to behave and account for themselves
in
> that way - to present a balance - just so nobody believes I'm having a go
at
> "clubs" - "shops" need to behave like professional businesses.
>
> What we have _typically_ is the worst of both, with a typical diver
attitude
> of "cheapest is best" which I've always found odd about life support
> equipment. I didn't believe that Americans really had a sense of humour
or
> understood sarcasm, until I heard the PADI video statement "Divers are a
> special group of social people" - a truism, that I'm confident was not
> intended as I now interpret and regurgitate it.
>
> /FAB
> http://www.e-aquanauts.com
> http://www.witteringdivers.co.uk
> http://www.vobsterquay.co.uk

I was going to guess that you are one of the shops that profits from the
individual's inability to obtain parts to service his own equipment. Unless
I'm mistaken, you're signature line confirms my guess.

Nobody said anything about selling for less than cost. What I said was
selling for cost. In a club environment, that is not an unsutainable
business model, it's sustainable and highly desirable.

My boat club has been doing it for 55 years. We are a not for profit
corporation organized and chartered specifically as like minded individuals
interested in boating and boating safety. Within that organization, we
lease our own marina lands, built our own facilities, provide docks and
slips to members at less than half the cost anywhere else in the area, sell
gas at a cost adjusted to the actual cost of the fuel, usually about 2/3 of
the cost at retail outlets and purchased a travel lift and other equipment
to allow boaters to work on their own boats for a price so trivial that it's
not worth considering . . . and we still have to be careful not to make a
profit at year end.

Lee




05 Nov 2003 16:18:16
Lee Bell
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Pete Young" wrote

> Clubs are are already in competition with shops. Without members the
> clubs will die, and what we are seeing is recent years is a growing
> number of people who have their diving organised for them by a dive
> shop rather than by a club. Unless the clubs are able to market
> themselves they will not recruit and maintain members, and yes you're
> right in order to do this properly there are many aspects of running a
> modern dive club which do require the club to behave as a business.

If your club is not already behaving as a business, a not for profit
business, then it's about time it started anyway. Any organization of
people with a common purpose should operate similarly. This is not to say
that every event must be break even, but it does mean that the net of all
events must be. It also means that such things as future price increases
for equipment, facilities and services as well as repairs, deterioriation
over time and replacement have to be built into the pricing structure, as do
provisions for new equipment and services. Depending on location, some
clubs might like to own their own boats and you can take it from me, owning
a boat is expensive and, the more a boat is used, the lower the per use cost
is. The only thing that should be missing is the distribution of profits .
. . and maybe some of the taxes (depends on your laws).

You guys are faced with the biggest challange in the history of UK diving,
PADI. PADI is a very big, very successful, very profitable and very
competitive organization. If you want your BSAC system to survive, it's
past time to begin considering how you can most effectively compete.

Lee





05 Nov 2003 16:28:42
Lee Bell
Re: Individuals or Clubs doing their own servicing.....

"Frank Bruce" wrote

> > I think Lee has a good point: why shouldn't a club be able to carry out
> > equipment servicing of the club's own equipment, provided that the
> > people doing the work have recieved (and paid for) the same training
> > as the people in the shops?
> >
> > Why shouldn't that service be extended to members of the club who own
> > similar equipment? After all there are no onerous pre-requisites to
> > be trained in regulator maintenance - dive shops can take people off
> > the street, so why shouldn't, for example, a time-served mechanical
> > engineering apprentice with a degree in engineering and 20 years
> > experience be considered suitable with the right training?

> I would hope that the individual(s) or club has all the correct tools,
> processes and insurance(s) to cover themselves in the event of...... as a
> business would/should . . . , but as I finnished "Divers are a group of
_special_
> social people", the very same people have used drain cleaner to clean BCDs
> and car grease to lube regs.....this weekend I opened a "just been
serviced"
> ebay bargin to find it full of 3in1 or similar.

Sure. Why I can remember all kinds of reports of people who were trained as
equipment service tecnicians by equipment manufactureres and went right out
and used drain cleaner on their BCD and car grease on regulators they and
their friends will be doing deco dives on. Please, if you're going to use
this kind of scare tactic to protect your profits, come up with something a
bit more believable. The ebay comment does not even deserve mention.
Anybody that buys life support on ebay that does not ensure it's carefully
checked before being used the first time is just a little closer to proving
Darwin's theories than I hope any of us are.

> Don't get me wrong - conversly I've seen some really vfery very dodgy
> servicing from "professionals" but there is recourse for that.

There are, and will be abuses no matter how it's done, but I find it less
likely that somebody that has the right training and tools who is working
for a club of his friends is less likely to provide such service than
somebody that can make an extra buck for himself by cutting corners.

I'm sure the local dive shops are concerned about ideas like this, but they
really don't need to be. There will always be plenty of people who will
trust a commercial enterprise more than a club or who simply don't have the
time or the inclination to do their part to support their club, lots of
them. However, for those that do find clubs to their liking, it can
certainly be a great way to substantially reduce the cost of diving.

Lee




05 Nov 2003 16:35:04
Lee Bell
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which

"Frank Bruce" <fbruce@cruelmail.com > wrote in message
news:3fa914fa$0$2384$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> "Pete Young" <pete@antipope.dot.org> wrote in message
> news:bob1sc$7qb$1@visp.bt.co.uk...
>
> > Clubs are are already in competition with shops. Without members the
> > clubs will die, and what we are seeing is recent years is a growing
> > number of people who have their diving organised for them by a dive
> > shop rather than by a club. Unless the clubs are able to market
> > themselves they will not recruit and maintain members, and yes you're
> > right in order to do this properly there are many aspects of running a
> > modern dive club which do require the club to behave as a business.
>
> I thought a club was this "collection of likeminded individuals" when
there
> are no more "likeminded individuals" surely the club should die. If it's
a
> business then lets level the playing field and remove the funding and
grants
> used to compete against busnesses.

Funny you should say that since this discussion started with just such an
issue, fair trade pricing and the restriction of access to regulator parts
to businesses with contracts with the very same manufacturers who are fixing
prices in the first place. Until you're really ready to completely level
the playing field, I suggest you speak with caution. A club not only does
not need to make a profit, it is usually designed to making one due to tax
considerations. Are you so interested in leveling the playing field that
you're ready to give up your profit?

> There are many good reasons for a club that are not business competative -
> personally I'd have said it was better to play on those strengths and not
> try and compete on someones elses terms.

I'd say that too if I were the competition.

Lee




05 Nov 2003 16:49:18
Frank Bruce
Re: Individuals or Clubs doing their own servicing.....

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:_y9qb.10467$9M3.176@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Sure. Why I can remember all kinds of reports of people who were trained
as
> equipment service tecnicians by equipment manufactureres and went right
out
> and used drain cleaner on their BCD and car grease on regulators they and
> their friends will be doing deco dives on. Please, if you're going to use
> this kind of scare tactic to protect your profits, come up with something
a
> bit more believable.

It's true - and funny enough people on here know this - no scare tactics and
I have no profits in this area to protect. To be clear I'm an instructor.
But really what make you think that "likeminded people" are friends.... my
experiance is of politics, back biting, wife swapping and the servicing per
the above - to friends.

> The ebay comment does not even deserve mention.
> Anybody that buys life support on ebay that does not ensure it's carefully
> checked before being used the first time is just a little closer to
proving
> Darwin's theories than I hope any of us are.

I know that, you know that - clearly people need reminding a - deal too good
to be true - usually is.
Perhaps we can recount the go-dive tank saga of two O-rings on the wrong
valve...

> > Don't get me wrong - conversly I've seen some really vfery very dodgy
> > servicing from "professionals" but there is recourse for that.
>
> There are, and will be abuses no matter how it's done, but I find it less
> likely that somebody that has the right training and tools who is working
> for a club of his friends is less likely to provide such service than
> somebody that can make an extra buck for himself by cutting corners.

Again the friends mistake. And with consumer protection, trading standards
etc - It's a little difficult to explain because I can't think of a US
equivilent as a frame of reference to begin with.

> I'm sure the local dive shops are concerned about ideas like this, but
they
> really don't need to be. There will always be plenty of people who will
> trust a commercial enterprise more than a club or who simply don't have
the
> time or the inclination to do their part to support their club, lots of
> them. However, for those that do find clubs to their liking, it can
> certainly be a great way to substantially reduce the cost of diving.

Not really as I said in the other mail - the model of support and the legal
status of UK clubs.




05 Nov 2003 16:57:20
Frank Bruce
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which

"Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:YE9qb.10470$9M3.8670@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> Funny you should say that since this discussion started with just such an
> issue, fair trade pricing and the restriction of access to regulator parts
> to businesses with contracts with the very same manufacturers who are
fixing
> prices in the first place. Until you're really ready to completely level
> the playing field, I suggest you speak with caution. A club not only does
> not need to make a profit, it is usually designed to making one due to tax
> considerations. Are you so interested in leveling the playing field that
> you're ready to give up your profit?

And funny that the biggest quango BSAC got an opinion in first - or did you
miss that.

Lee - I'm not GI3 or JJ - you really fail to understand that the UK is _NOT_
yet the 53 state of America despite what president Blair wants.
You are basing your arguments on US policy and as is typical fail to listen
or understand the locals - Clubs are _different_ here.

> > There are many good reasons for a club that are not business
competative -
> > personally I'd have said it was better to play on those strengths and
not
> > try and compete on someones elses terms.
>
> I'd say that too if I were the competition.
>
> Lee

Cheap.

/F
www.cisco.com
www.mci.com




05 Nov 2003 16:44:47
Keith Lawrence
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which

"Frank Bruce" <fbruce@cruelmail.com > wrote...

> I thought a club was this "collection of likeminded individuals"
> when there are no more "likeminded individuals" surely the club
> should die. If it's a business then lets level the playing
> field and remove the funding and grants used to compete
> against busnesses.

> There are many good reasons for a club that are not business
> competative - personally I'd have said it was better to play
> on those strengths and not try and compete on someones
> elses terms.

I actually agree with you Frank, I see no problem at all with the two
operating side by side for the mutual benefit of both, we need each other.
But there will always be some overlap in both directions.

What I don't accept is the concept of the LDS saying "clubs shouldn't
train/run boats, they are doing me out of business" and trying to impose
unnecessary rules, regulations or restrictions on clubs as a matter of
restrictive practice and protectionism - by the same token shall we seek to
ban club members buying hammers and nails at the local DIY store because
they would be doing the local jobbing builder out of work?

Now here's a nice little conundrum for you... I see that CAS is running a
UKRS PADI Rescue course, should he be "allowed" to do this or is he taking
business away from the LDS?

Regards

Keith L




05 Nov 2003 18:36:28
Frank Bruce
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which

"Keith Lawrence" <false@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:3fa93383$0$52887$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...

> I actually agree with you Frank, I see no problem at all with the two
> operating side by side for the mutual benefit of both, we need each other.
> But there will always be some overlap in both directions.

Oy! quango leader -- No!! Don't agree with me - it only confuses :_)

> What I don't accept is the concept of the LDS saying "clubs shouldn't
> train/run boats, they are doing me out of business" and trying to impose
> unnecessary rules, regulations or restrictions on clubs as a matter of
> restrictive practice and protectionism -

Nor would I.

What many shops and clubs fail to understand that it is the divers choice,
their time, their money. If they find diving from a commercial boat more
convient then let them take it without recrimination, if they enjoy all the
aspects of ribs maintance and long list of "stuff" associated with boats,
not being restricted too commercially selected dive sites let them form a
club! Same token to training if they find the club system suits them then
it's probably best for them - for others it may not be fast enough or
suitable for what they wish to do - again it's the divers choice etc etc
etc.

I'm sure there is some idiot that has said much of the above but typically
I'd suggest that this is very much of the club systems own making - what I
singularly failed to explain to Lee is the "attitude" problem, of clubs,
dictatorial diving officers with egos of planets and brains like peas (not
all of them) just it would seem those that go on and own some shops, the
same people that launch their business from a club by making that profit
from their "friends" for want of a better term. If your LDS has an approach
that Keith has suggested, then commercially you have a choice and with a
club you leave.

But wasn't it "a club" that by action and inaction caused the same
"unnecessary rules, regulations or restrictions" to be imposed on the diving
"professionals" via the HSE and protected it's funding and CMAS status for
years. So I wonder where the poor old LDS might just get that " restrictive
practice and protectionism" attitude from, previous experiance?

>by the same token shall we seek to
> ban club members buying hammers and nails at the local DIY store because
> they would be doing the local jobbing builder out of work?
>
> Now here's a nice little conundrum for you... I see that CAS is running a
> UKRS PADI Rescue course, should he be "allowed" to do this or is he taking
> business away from the LDS?

The difference here is that this is commercial competition and a free
market - clubs aren't commercially competative or participating the the free
market are they?

> Regards
>
> Keith L

Still friends.

/F




05 Nov 2003 20:35:48
Keith Lawrence
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which

"Frank Bruce" <fbruce@cruelmail.com > wrote...

> > I actually agree with you Frank

> Oy! quango leader -- No!! Don't agree with me - it
> only confuses :_)

Sorry about that, it's becoming a habit. I agreed with Al the other month as
well, I really should try and get out more ;-)

> > What I don't accept is the concept of the LDS
> > saying "clubs shouldn't train/run boats, they are
> > doing me out of business" and trying to impose
> > unnecessary rules, regulations or restrictions
> > on clubs as a matter of restrictive practice
> > and protectionism -

> Nor would I.
> What many shops and clubs fail to understand that it
> is the divers choice, their time, their money. If they
> find diving from a commercial boat more convient then
> let them...if they find the club system suits them
> then it's probably best for them...

Now pack it in Frank, how are we supposed to have our traditional ding-dong
if you keep posting sensible stuff like that?

Again I agree with you, what more it shouldn't have to be a choice of this
OR that, what's wrong with this AND that? For my basic training back in 1996
I did a mixture of both, part of my training was club based, part of it
school based. I did a commercial IANTD course, for my DL I think one SDC I
did in the club, another at a school. That was MY choice, it suited me, my
DO had no problem whatsoever with it. That's the way it should be IMHO, both
the school and the club systems have their place, intermixed, it's down to
diver choice.

> ...what I singularly failed to explain to Lee is the
> "attitude" problem, of clubs, dictatorial diving officers
> with egos of planets and brains like peas (not all of them)
...
> If your LDS has an approach that Keith has suggested,
> then commercially you have a choice and with a
> club you leave.

Same with clubs as you say. Fortunately the attitude that you cite is slowly
going the way of all good dinosaurs and becoming extinct, not a moment
before time IMHO. But it still does happen - find yourself another club. I
have no problem whatsoever arguing that point face-to-face with any club
officer, in an "official" capacity or not!

> But wasn't it "a club" that by action and inaction
> caused the same "unnecessary rules, regulations or
> restrictions" to be imposed on the diving "professionals"
> via the HSE and protected it's funding and CMAS status for
> years. So I wonder where the poor old LDS might just
> get that " restrictive practice and protectionism" attitude
> from, previous experiance?

Now that's more like the Frank I know! I'm sure there's a dig in there
somewhere but I can't quite put my finger on it. Tell you what - clarify
your allegation, I'll dig out the facts, then I'll tear you to pieces and
prove why you are so wrong. Just like the good old days :-))

Cheers

Keith L




06 Nov 2003 10:16:34
CAS
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (maybe)


> Now here's a nice little conundrum for you... I see that CAS is running a
> UKRS PADI Rescue course, should he be "allowed" to do this or is he taking
> business away from the LDS?


I presume you know who the instructors are!!! ;-)

This is actually a lovely example of (my view of) how it all _should_ work.
All the students are "like minded" by the fact that we are all PADI AOWs who
want rescue and other UK specific skills - a "club" but without the
framework.

I went about investigating ways to get this training done, I had responses
from various people (individual instructors and LDSs) and chose what I
considered to be the best package.

This isn't so much taking business away from LDS's, rather giving LDS's the
opportunity to compete for business by taking the L out of LDS! When you
(or rather me, the trainee) has to travel anyway to get training the "Local"
part of Local Dive Shop becomes irrelevant - there are not many LDS's in the
country who have their "own" dive sites. How does this benefit the shop?
Well, in this instance by attracting a group of divers who are not "local"
and of course making a few bucks in the meantime.

I suspect the reason why Frank and Jan (Wittering) came up with the best
package has a lot to do with an understanding of the actual business behind
what I was trying to achieve. Given that they have organised this on a
commercial basis and have business overheads to cover I reckon they have put
together a low-margin deal. I suspect they will be hoping for repeat
business, either from the guys on the course individually or from other
UKRSers organising Courses 3 and onwards... Of course, I'm not them and I'm
only speculating as if it was me running a training facility I would have
tried to put together just as attractive a package....

I'm rambling now, amn't I...

I know I started all this off again (sorry) but I think, all in all, that
the diver industry isn't as corrupt as people make out. Yes there is price
fixing going on, yes there are restrictive practises WRT spares and
servicing but on the whole the industry IS market and consumer led.

My original point was meant, not to kick off the whole
spares-and-servicing-lets-have-a-good-kick-at-the-industry thing, rather to
perhaps get some ideas for ways to start to change the industry.

My example was that the manufacturers are telling the LDSs not to supply
spares on "experienced technician/safety" grounds. Whether or not that is
the real reason is not the real issue. The real issue for you and me is
that we can't get parts and service our own kit. So, address the reason
given by the manufacturer and remove that barrier and see what happens
next...

...hence the question 'Is something like TDI's "Service Technician" course
good enough?'

CAS
--
PADI AOW? Get Rescue Training on UKRS Course #1 -
http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004
Temperature @ Stoney? Find it or share it @
http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/




06 Nov 2003 10:38:02
Keith Lawrence
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (maybe)

"CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com > wrote ...

> I presume you know who the instructors are!!! ;-)

Of course :-)

> This is actually a lovely example of (my view of) how it
> all _should_ work. All the students are "like minded" by
> the fact that we are all PADI AOWs who want rescue and
> other UK specific skills - a "club" but without the
> framework.

I agree, I think that you've done a brilliant job of mixing the
club/business element in the way that it SHOULD work. All done in the very
best spirit of UKRS.

Now if you can crack the spares problem while you're at it... ;-)

Regards

Keith L




06 Nov 2003 11:03:20
CAS
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (maybe)

"Keith Lawrence" <false@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:3faa248a$0$52883$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> "CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>
> > This is actually a lovely example of (my view of) how it
> > all _should_ work. All the students are "like minded" by
> > the fact that we are all PADI AOWs who want rescue and
> > other UK specific skills - a "club" but without the
> > framework.
>
> I agree, I think that you've done a brilliant job of mixing the
> club/business element in the way that it SHOULD work. All done in the very
> best spirit of UKRS.

Why, thank you! *blush*

> Now if you can crack the spares problem while you're at it... ;-)

Which was, as I pointed out towards the end of that last ramble, the point
of my first post. I am in no doubt whatsoever that this is not an issue
which will be sorted out easily or quickly. But I'm half convinced it can
be sorted.

I doubt very much if it could ever be done by the "this is sharp practice,
get the OFT (or whoever) involved". There just aren't enough divers with an
issue with servicing, the vast majority of divers in the UK will have their
regs serviced at their (L)DS for reasons like "I don't want the
responsibility of servicing my own kit" or "I'm completely handless and
don't know one end of a screwdriver from the other". LDSs will continue to
make the money off servicing these divers' items. Then there are divers
like you and me. We are the minority, a very, very small minority. Way too
small to make things happen through regulation or legislation and too small
to make much of an impact on an LDSs or a manufacturers profit.

The way forward can only be for us (did someone say "like-minded
individuals" in another bit of the thread...) to try other options. The
most logical is to play them at their own game.

Now, when I was looking for bits for my LPI I phoned various retailers and
asked whether or not they sold spares kits. All the ones who actually did
servicing themselves said "Yes, but are you a trained service technician?".

To me it seems that if you can say "Yes, I am a trained service technician"
and prove it if needs be, then the retailer would be fine with that, if we
can get some indication of what training is _actually_ required to keep the
LDS happy, then we're laughing.

> Regards
>
> Keith L
>
>

The way forward? I guess we need a tame "Till Jockey" to give us the inside
info on what is and isn't an acceptable form of training...

CAS
--
PADI AOW? Get Rescue Training on UKRS Course #1 -
http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004
Temperature @ Stoney? Find it or share it @
http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/




06 Nov 2003 15:18:52
Frank Bruce
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (nochance)

"CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:bod9ps$1cknpn$1@ID-193985.news.uni-berlin.de...

> The way forward? I guess we need a tame "Till Jockey" to give us the
inside
> info on what is and isn't an acceptable form of training...

Until you find a tame one......

No the TDI service technicians course isn't good enough, nor is the PADI
equipment maintainence speciality.... Just for a laugh another reg came in
today packed with a white hydrocarbon based grease - or it could have been
lard ;-)

Generally you need to consider the cost of supporting each individual with
every update for every peice of dive gear they own - clearly if this model
was applied to say APEKS then their regs might cost ten times as much. The
dealer model makes sence financially - I could say something about "the
club" not being able to support it's members with the limited information
updates they require... but thats like shooting fish....

You need to complete the manufacturers course, usually after an ASSET course
and be registered to a dealer or get a spares account - a bit like an
instructor being affiliated with an agency to issue qualifications
really....I would recommend insurance if you intend doing this for anyone
else.

Next if we all got togeather and formed a club - who would the club
authorise to service regs? and how would the liability and duty of care
issues be resolved, for them, the commitee and the members?

I couldn't see a way....

/FAB




06 Nov 2003 15:46:20
CAS
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (nochance)

"Frank Bruce" <fbruce@cruelmail.com > wrote in message
news:3faa664f$0$5409$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> "CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:bod9ps$1cknpn$1@ID-193985.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > The way forward? I guess we need a tame "Till Jockey" to give us the
> inside
> > info on what is and isn't an acceptable form of training...
>
> Until you find a tame one......

Frank, you know full-well I would _never_ call you a till-jockey...

...well, until I've at least met you in person!! ;-)

> No the TDI service technicians course isn't good enough, nor is the PADI
> equipment maintainence speciality.... Just for a laugh another reg came in
> today packed with a white hydrocarbon based grease - or it could have been
> lard ;-)

Lovely! Could this be the scuba equivalent of pouring coke into clutch
bell-housings on motors instead of going to the bother of replacing it...?
Bung something gloopy in the reg - it'll breathe different from when in came
in - punter thinks everything's been made new again...?

> Generally you need to consider the cost of supporting each individual with
> every update for every peice of dive gear they own - clearly if this model
> was applied to say APEKS then their regs might cost ten times as much.
The
> dealer model makes sence financially - I could say something about "the
> club" not being able to support it's members with the limited information
> updates they require... but thats like shooting fish....

Forgive my naivety - but what updates? I was under the impression that
updates don't happen to scuba gear. Only recalls and "fix this at the next
service" type things. Neither of these would affect the "home servicer",
recalls are recalls, other fixes will be in the service packs...? But of
course I'm speculating (possibly out of the wrong orifice...).

> You need to complete the manufacturers course, usually after an ASSET
course
> and be registered to a dealer or get a spares account - a bit like an
> instructor being affiliated with an agency to issue qualifications
> really....I would recommend insurance if you intend doing this for anyone
> else.

Now, before anyone else jumps in with guns blazing, I've just had the
quickest of glances at the ASSET site and everything there relates to the
commercial side (not necessarily commercial diving, but scuba businesses),
I'm talking about servicing my scuba gear in the same way that I service my
car - an interested individual.

I would happily service my own regs, I would not be comfortable servicing
anyone elses. Their choice should be the same as mine - get a pro to do it
or do it yourself (only I don't yet have that choice).

> Next if we all got togeather and formed a club - who would the club
> authorise to service regs? and how would the liability and duty of care
> issues be resolved, for them, the commitee and the members?

Nope, I'm not talking about any form of "club", although it did kind of come
across that way didn't it! I was merely suggesting that some of us get
involved with trying to extract information and spares from manufacturers or
retailers...

...no forming, no committee, no members, nobody to authorise anything, no
duty of care so no liability...

> I couldn't see a way....
>
> /FAB
>
>

CAS




06 Nov 2003 16:17:56
Frank Bruce
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (nochance)

"CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:bodqcd$1cslf4$1@ID-193985.news.uni-berlin.de...

> Forgive my naivety - but what updates? I was under the impression that
> updates don't happen to scuba gear. Only recalls and "fix this at the
next
> service" type things. Neither of these would affect the "home servicer",
> recalls are recalls, other fixes will be in the service packs...? But of
> course I'm speculating (possibly out of the wrong orifice...).

Ermmm you'd be forgiven for thinking that but; every month or dependant of
the manufacturer we may or may not recieve a "newsletter" with all the
"stuff" they make and all the bits you need to change - and changes to
changes - and changes back - and changes to the replacement changes etc
etc - spares kits also change because typically the are a stock item of
parts - and yes - it's a nightmare

Whilst not being beyond the wit of man and infact the net being an ideal
method of information distribution - who pays for the infrastructure bearing
in mind that these people count photocopies on the margins.

In any case you do have a choice http://www.beaversports.co.uk/generally
deal with anyone - you could buy your regs and service kits from them -
(hang on let me invest first) - but really CAS you're asking for something
that just isn't cost effective or built into the business model of the
manufacturer.

> You need to complete the manufacturers course, usually after an ASSET
> course
> > and be registered to a dealer or get a spares account - a bit like an
> > instructor being affiliated with an agency to issue qualifications
> > really....I would recommend insurance if you intend doing this for
anyone
> > else.
>
> Now, before anyone else jumps in with guns blazing, I've just had the
> quickest of glances at the ASSET site and everything there relates to the
> commercial side (not necessarily commercial diving, but scuba businesses),
> I'm talking about servicing my scuba gear in the same way that I service
my
> car - an interested individual.

Thats odd behaviour I pay a man to do mine.

> I would happily service my own regs, I would not be comfortable servicing
> anyone elses. Their choice should be the same as mine - get a pro to do
it
> or do it yourself (only I don't yet have that choice).

So this is an idealogical argument against the fiscal busness polices of a
commercial free market - I'm with you brother - they'll all be the first
against the wall when the revolution comes.

> > Next if we all got togeather and formed a club - who would the club
> > authorise to service regs? and how would the liability and duty of care
> > issues be resolved, for them, the commitee and the members?
>
> Nope, I'm not talking about any form of "club", although it did kind of
come
> across that way didn't it! I was merely suggesting that some of us get
> involved with trying to extract information and spares from manufacturers
or
> retailers...
>
> ...no forming, no committee, no members, nobody to authorise anything, no
> duty of care so no liability...
>
> > I couldn't see a way....
> >
> > /FAB

United we stand comrade.

/Wolfy.




06 Nov 2003 16:23:01
Pete Young
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (nochance)

Frank Bruce <fbruce@cruelmail.com > writes:

> Just for a laugh another reg came in
>today packed with a white hydrocarbon based grease - or it could have been
>lard ;-)

I'd expect a self-proclaimed bacon sandwich guru to _know_ the difference!

>Generally you need to consider the cost of supporting each individual with
>every update for every peice of dive gear they own - clearly if this model
>was applied to say APEKS then their regs might cost ten times as much.

This figure of 10 times was brought to you by the PIOOMA estimating
method! But in reality we're not talking about informing all the
_owners_ of equipment about every update. We're just talking about the
overhead of a slightly larger list of registered technicians.

>You need to complete the manufacturers course, usually after an ASSET course
>and be registered to a dealer or get a spares account - a bit like an
>instructor being affiliated with an agency to issue qualifications
>really....I would recommend insurance if you intend doing this for anyone
>else.

My primary motivation is to be able to service my own equipment,
so for that insurance isn't a requirement.

But turning this round, What insurance do the shops carry?

Even if a shop carried out a faulty service on a piece of equipment
that caused it to malfunction, what are the chances of an insurance
claim succeeding against the shop? The defence would be that the
equipment could have been tampered with by the user after it
left the shop . I think the chances of this happening are so
vanishingly small that the insurance aspect is a red herring,
albeit one that is frequently used by people with vested interests
to obstruct progress.

The Instructor analogy is not a bad one, and I don't see any reason
why there shouldn't be, say, a BSAC equipment servicing SDC (perhaps a
follow-on from the existing Equipment Care SDC) to replace the ASSET
course and then specific training on specific items of equipment.

>Next if we all got togeather and formed a club - who would the club
>authorise to service regs? and how would the liability and duty of care
>issues be resolved, for them, the commitee and the members?

It would be no different to the existing mechanisms that clubs
already use to ensure that only qualified instructors carry
out instruction, qualified boat handlers/coxns handle boats and so on.

Any club that provides equipment to its members is already under a
duty of care to provide equipment of suitable quality. One would hope
that liability issues associated with this are covered by the
insurance provided by the association to which the club is affiliated.
Regular servicing of this equipment is part of this obligation so it's
only really a question of extending this to allow suitably trained and
qualified individuals within the club to carry out the work.

Regards,

Pete

--
____________________________________________________________________
Pete Young pete@antipope.org Remove dot. to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"



06 Nov 2003 16:48:29
Frank Bruce
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (nochance)

"Pete Young" <pete@antipope.dot.org > wrote in message
news:bodsh5$81p$1@visp.bt.co.uk...

> This figure of 10 times was brought to you by the PIOOMA estimating
> method! But in reality we're not talking about informing all the
> _owners_ of equipment about every update. We're just talking about the
> overhead of a slightly larger list of registered technicians.

:-) But would it be slightly larger, lets go back to Keiths' analogy of DIY
and the small market stalls of B&Q, Focus, HomeBase etc ect, I'd expect
everyone on that list following SD or AOW.

>SNIP<

> But turning this round, What insurance do the shops carry?

Liability was 5M until we started teaching kids now it's 15M.

> Even if a shop carried out a faulty service on a piece of equipment
> that caused it to malfunction, what are the chances of an insurance
> claim succeeding against the shop? The defence would be that the
> equipment could have been tampered with by the user after it
> left the shop . I think the chances of this happening are so
> vanishingly small that the insurance aspect is a red herring,
> albeit one that is frequently used by people with vested interests
> to obstruct progress.

You know conspiracy theories don't hold water - you're just being paranoid -
you know we'll get you in the end.... But I agree with aspects of what you
say - Insurance companies will use every excuse not to pay a claim (blame
DaveA) - However there is also trading standards, and the fact that with the
best will & skill in the world "all crap and plastic" aka regs will fail,
there are various tests being proposed to reduce this aspect - but we'll
see - it all looks way to limited to me. If the same commercial interest
does it wrong continually then they will be revealed and prosecuted.

> The Instructor analogy is not a bad one, and I don't see any reason
> why there shouldn't be, say, a BSAC equipment servicing SDC (perhaps a
> follow-on from the existing Equipment Care SDC) to replace the ASSET
> course and then specific training on specific items of equipment.

Do you get all your club updates? I rest my case. But perhaps BSAC
themselves could write said SDC and with it, the combined might of the
membership, force the sale of spares to it's members, accepting the
responsibility. Might shorten the BSAC vs the world debates as there would
be no BSAC.

> >Next if we all got togeather and formed a club - who would the club
> >authorise to service regs? and how would the liability and duty of care
> >issues be resolved, for them, the commitee and the members?
>
> It would be no different to the existing mechanisms that clubs
> already use to ensure that only qualified instructors carry
> out instruction, qualified boat handlers/coxns handle boats and so on.

Lets really not go there - I've avoiding that hook, line and sinker.

> Any club that provides equipment to its members is already under a
> duty of care to provide equipment of suitable quality. One would hope
> that liability issues associated with this are covered by the
> insurance provided by the association to which the club is affiliated.
> Regular servicing of this equipment is part of this obligation so it's
> only really a question of extending this to allow suitably trained and
> qualified individuals within the club to carry out the work.

I couldn't find this in the BSAC insurance and therefore went with
Divemaster for the members as a top up - One for Keith L.

/F




06 Nov 2003 16:57:50
CAS
Had to shift down to here...

...cos Line3 got too big and you can't do anything about it in OE... must
get proper newsreader...

> > Forgive my naivety - but what updates? I was under the impression that
> > updates don't happen to scuba gear. Only recalls and "fix this at the
> next
> > service" type things. Neither of these would affect the "home
servicer",
> > recalls are recalls, other fixes will be in the service packs...? But
of
> > course I'm speculating (possibly out of the wrong orifice...).
>
> Ermmm you'd be forgiven for thinking that but; every month or dependant of
> the manufacturer we may or may not recieve a "newsletter" with all the
> "stuff" they make and all the bits you need to change - and changes to
> changes - and changes back - and changes to the replacement changes etc
> etc - spares kits also change because typically the are a stock item of
> parts - and yes - it's a nightmare

Humour me - what are these changes, changes back, changes to changes and
whatnot? What sorts of things? And what happens when you get one through?
Presumably you don't have to track down all the customers with an AcmeScuba
Reg-O-matic to apply these changes...

...me as an AcmeScuba Reg-O-Matic owner will never know about it. I'll get
my Reg-O-Matic serviced at the end of twelve months, the service engineer
will use whatever spares kit the manufacturer decides to send him and what
was in said spares kit, or what notices came along with it will never be
communicated to me...

...or is that the same orifice talking again?

> Whilst not being beyond the wit of man and infact the net being an ideal
> method of information distribution - who pays for the infrastructure
bearing
> in mind that these people count photocopies on the margins.

*nod* but not really the point. The only time Reg-O-Matic owners get
involved is when a mass recall happens - then it is all over the diving
press, here, Stoney, boats, clubs, shops... SCUBA is nearly as small a
world as Citroen XM ownership...

> In any case you do have a choice http://www.beaversports.co.uk/generally
> deal with anyone - you could buy your regs and service kits from them -
> (hang on let me invest first) - but really CAS you're asking for something
> that just isn't cost effective or built into the business model of the
> manufacturer.

That isn't necessarily what some people would call a choice... good boots,
good hoods... struggling now...

> > You need to complete the manufacturers course, usually after an ASSET
> > course
> > > and be registered to a dealer or get a spares account - a bit like an
> > > instructor being affiliated with an agency to issue qualifications
> > > really....I would recommend insurance if you intend doing this for
> anyone
> > > else.
> >
> > Now, before anyone else jumps in with guns blazing, I've just had the
> > quickest of glances at the ASSET site and everything there relates to
the
> > commercial side (not necessarily commercial diving, but scuba
businesses),
> > I'm talking about servicing my scuba gear in the same way that I service
> my
> > car - an interested individual.
>
> Thats odd behaviour I pay a man to do mine.

I don't. I like to know that my nuts are tight... *cough* ...you know what
I mean.

> > I would happily service my own regs, I would not be comfortable
servicing
> > anyone elses. Their choice should be the same as mine - get a pro to do
> it
> > or do it yourself (only I don't yet have that choice).
>
> So this is an idealogical argument against the fiscal busness polices of a
> commercial free market - I'm with you brother - they'll all be the first
> against the wall when the revolution comes.

Nope. This WAS an attempt to gather some information to launch a subversive
assault on the dive industry to aquire some spare parts for dive equipment
that the industry currently won't let me have. Hell, the whole point of
business is to make money.

If I may go back to the automotive arguement, I can f**k about with the life
support systems on my car to my heart's content, I can do brakes,
suspension, wheel bearings, fuel lines you name it. If I f**k that up I can
not only kill me and my passengers but whoever happens to be in the way of a
brakeless, steeringless, flaming two-ton lump of metal and plastic...

...I have NO formal mechanical training, just a lot of experience, an eye
for detail and a real and powerful desire to stay living for a bit longer.

Now the only difference between automotive and SCUBA is the numbers. These
resrictive practices used to go on in automotive but because of the size of
the market there were enough people with enough clout to have it changed.
That ain't going to happen in SCUBA. There is no demand for "patern" parts,
there is no demand from independant repair or servicing outfits (that's not
franchised ones as is the current situation with LDSs), there is no-one
apart from the "hobbyist" to get p***ed off about it.

Ergo, and back to the point, the only way for the hobbyist to get the parts
he needs is by conforming to what the manufacturer says to remove their
barriers (training as service tech).

There are better people to have against the wall first, lawyers and
politicians for example.

> > > Next if we all got togeather and formed a club - who would the club
> > > authorise to service regs? and how would the liability and duty of
care
> > > issues be resolved, for them, the commitee and the members?
> >
> > Nope, I'm not talking about any form of "club", although it did kind of
> come
> > across that way didn't it! I was merely suggesting that some of us get
> > involved with trying to extract information and spares from
manufacturers
> or
> > retailers...
> >
> > ...no forming, no committee, no members, nobody to authorise anything,
no
> > duty of care so no liability...
> >
> > > I couldn't see a way....
> > >
> > > /FAB
>
> United we stand comrade.

Careful, as soon as I have "the idea" I'll be worshipping at the alter of St
Maggie...

You are only acting in an instructional capacity and not as a victim on
Course #1...? ;-)

> /Wolfy.
>
>

CAS

--
PADI AOW? Get Rescue Training on UKRS Course #1 -
http://divesite.calumscott.me.uk/ukrs/rescue_diver_2004
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http://stoneytemps.calumscott.me.uk/















06 Nov 2003 17:37:15
Keith Lawrence
Re: Clubs or Businesses; which... and back to the point (nochance)

"Frank Bruce" <fbruce@cruelmail.com > wrote...

> > Any club that provides equipment to its members is already under a
> > duty of care to provide equipment of suitable quality. One would hope
> > that liability issues associated with this are covered by the
> > insurance provided by the association to which the club is affiliated.
> > Regular servicing of this equipment is part of this obligation so it's
> > only really a question of extending this to allow suitably trained and
> > qualified individuals within the club to carry out the work.

> I couldn't find this in the BSAC insurance and therefore went with
> Divemaster for the members as a top up - One for Keith L.

I can't give you a definitive answer because I am not the insurance expert.
I believe that it all comes under the "duty of care" heading and as such is
covered by the standard BSAC insurance policy. Check with BSAC HQ (0151 350
6200) for the correct answer on that one.

Keith L




07 Nov 2003 13:18:16
rnf2
Re: Had to shift down to here...


"CAS" <calumscottTAKETHISBITOUT@yahoo.com > wrote
<SNIP >
> Nope. This WAS an attempt to gather some information to launch a
subversive
> assault on the dive industry to aquire some spare parts for dive equipment
> that the industry currently won't let me have. Hell, the whole point of
> business is to make money.
>
<SNIP >
>
> Now the only difference between automotive and SCUBA is the numbers.
These
> resrictive practices used to go on in automotive but because of the size
of
> the market there were enough people with enough clout to have it changed.
> That ain't going to happen in SCUBA. There is no demand for "patern"
parts,
> there is no demand from independant repair or servicing outfits (that's
not
> franchised ones as is the current situation with LDSs), there is no-one
> apart from the "hobbyist" to get p***ed off about it.
>
> Ergo, and back to the point, the only way for the hobbyist to get the
parts
> he needs is by conforming to what the manufacturer says to remove their
> barriers (training as service tech).
>
<SNIP >

I asked my LDS, which is the PADI fivestar IDC that trained me about
becoming a reg servicer, and if I want to, I can pay about NZ$200 (UK about
80 quid) and go on a manufacturors course to learn to service that
manufacturors regs. So if I bought a Sherwood reg, and wanted to be able to
maintain it myself, all it would take is $200 and a couple of days.
And after that I can also take care of any other guys out there with
sherwood regs.

Things must be different here in NZ than over there in the UK.

rhys




10 Nov 2003 07:01:48
Kit
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

> You guys are faced with the biggest challange in the history of UK diving,
> PADI. PADI is a very big, very successful, very profitable and very
> competitive organization. If you want your BSAC system to survive, it's
> past time to begin considering how you can most effectively compete.
>
> Lee

I think that it is really important that the BSAC do not try to
compete with PADI. AFAIK (and I'm not and expert by any stretch of the
imagination) the BSAC are offering a different service. They are a
group of like minded people run by an elected(?) commitee, who work
together to ensure that the club does the dives that it's members want
to do. A PADI Dive Centre is a different animal. They aim to provide
services that divers need in the same way, but it is for profit (that
does not, in my opinion make it bad). They want to deal with the parts
of customer (diver) service that make money, and that is not the
physical act of diving for pleasure. That is training, equipment and
servicing. Why would BSAC want to compete with such a well supported
(internationally) organisation. Should they not work very hard at
getting people to go diving? Why not learn to dive with PADI, an
organisation with at least fairly effective Quality Assurance
procedures (the BSAC has none?) and up to date training (I believe
that there is no requirement for BSAC intructors to update their
training?) and then join the BSAC club to actually go diving, which is
by far what they are best at. Get the 2 agancies to work together, and
we would all benefit

Kit


10 Nov 2003 19:53:45
Keith Lawrence
Re: What do the manufacturers/suppliers want to see? Was: Cost of converting reg from a-clamp to DIN

"Kit" <scubakit@yahoo.co.uk > wrote ...

> I think that it is really important that the BSAC do not try to
> compete with PADI...BSAC are offering a different service...

Correct IMHO as well.

> Get the 2 agancies to work together, and we would all benefit

They already do.

Keith L