24 Aug 2005 15:06:22
zephyr
wind minimum for Kiting

Okay,

A friend of mine is looking at getting into kiting, he took his first
lesson last month,
I told him he should sail, and I've taken him out with me a couple times.
last night I went out, and shouldn't have, I saw 13mph before I packed up,
12, mph when I left, and by the time I was rigged and sailing it was about
8-10 mph or less
so. no planing for me, it was close though, but not enough wind.

I had invited my buddy along, but, he declined for other reasons, Talking
today and telling him I was skunked he said,
you should be on a kite.
so,
that brings me to the question, what is going to be better in light winds
for planing, a 10.5 sail on a 85cm wide board, or,
a 20 meter kite. forget about the slogging ride home vs the swim. can a
big ass kite plane up sooner than a ba sail?

Dave





24 Aug 2005 20:25:08
Steven Slaby
Re: wind minimum for Kiting



(sailboarding@gmail.com)
writes: > Okay,
> that brings me to the question, what is going to be better in light winds
> for planing, a 10.5 sail on a 85cm wide board, or,
> a 20 meter kite. forget about the slogging ride home vs the swim. can a
> big ass kite plane up sooner than a ba sail?
>
> Dave

Depends on the skill level of both but assuming both competent in light
winds and about the same weight, I think it would be a slight edge to
windsurfers for planing at the threshold.

I'm very slightly better at getting going compared to the locals on 17m or 18m
kites but I'm on a slightly narrower board (10.5 / 78cm wide). Another local
windsurfer with a wider board and 11M sail is better off than me and all
the kiters at getting planing. I've been out when the wind has been
dropping and kiters pack it in because there is too much bobbing in the
water time while I'm still getting on a plane.

I think most locals sold their huge kites because they are much slower to
manoeuvre so I have no benchmark against a 20m kite.

Steve.
--
----------------------------------------------
Ottawa Windsurfing http://ottawawindsurfing.ca


24 Aug 2005 21:39:52
GWood
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

While in Baja last spring I saw some guys playing in the surf on really big
boards. They were like converted windsurf boards of the 8' size. Their
kites were "normal" sized, not mongo, but with boards that floaty I suspect
they'd get the nod if they were lofting a bit more yardage.

I know I've "surfed" a windsurf board behind a small boat on glassy days
holding on to a waterski rope. Sure doesn't take much HP to get a big board
moving.

"zephyr" <sailboarding@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1LmdnXrCsN7pTpHeRVn-ug@comcast.com...
>
>
> that brings me to the question, what is going to be better in light winds
> for planing, a 10.5 sail on a 85cm wide board, or,
> a 20 meter kite. forget about the slogging ride home vs the swim. can a
> big ass kite plane up sooner than a ba sail?
>
> Dave
>
>
>




24 Aug 2005 17:31:42
GeorgeUSA39
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Earliest planning on a formula board is 6 knots, which requires pumping
to get on a plane and periodic pumps to stay on a plane but you can
glide through 4 knot lulls. I don't know what it would be with 25 meter
kite but I'll bet its pretty low as well considering wind is usually
stronger the higher it is.



24 Aug 2005 23:14:11
Glenn Woodell
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:06:22 -0400, "zephyr" <sailboarding@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Okay,
>
> A friend of mine is looking at getting into kiting, he took his first
>lesson last month,
>I told him he should sail, and I've taken him out with me a couple times.
>last night I went out, and shouldn't have, I saw 13mph before I packed up,
>12, mph when I left, and by the time I was rigged and sailing it was about
>8-10 mph or less
>so. no planing for me, it was close though, but not enough wind.
>
>I had invited my buddy along, but, he declined for other reasons, Talking
>today and telling him I was skunked he said,
>you should be on a kite.
>so,
>that brings me to the question, what is going to be better in light winds
>for planing, a 10.5 sail on a 85cm wide board, or,
>a 20 meter kite. forget about the slogging ride home vs the swim. can a
>big ass kite plane up sooner than a ba sail?

I'm guessung that you'l plane up in lighter winds with a kite...that
is until you get good at it and become a wind snob like many of us
poleboarders, then refuse to fly anything larger than a 2 meter kite.
:)

Glenn


24 Aug 2005 20:31:35
LeeD
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Windsurfers plane up and stay safe in lighter winds than any kiter.
The thoughts of 18+ kite sizing is not reality anymore, as most find
the windrange of 7-11 mph kinda small, and anything around 13 lofts you
into anything downwind.
Practical practice, biggest kite around 16-18, that's reality, unless
you can survive the loftings that come when 20 meter kites meet 15mph
winds.
Windsurfers can choose 10 sails and 80+ wide boards, and it's safe
period, as you can always drop it.
Be real guys, it's not 2002 when the big jumbo kites first started
making an appearance.
We've found the jumbo kites are super specialized, to be used by
experts who have the medical backup, and NOT by the average
accomplished kiter.
Any beginner can windsurf with a 10 meter sail and 140 liter board,
up to around 15mph safely, but if it comes up, you don't lose out by
dying or getting hurt big time.
Remember, the worldwide death toll for kiting is close to 37, and
most are by loftings caused by too big a kite in too much wind!
Beginners especially should never consider anything much bigger than
a 12 for their first kite, and only in superlight wind areas!



24 Aug 2005 23:03:33
Hippieboy
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Sometimes it depends on where you ride. Sometimes it's not really about a
"wind minimum". Around here we get tons of days where the wind is up high.
Sometimes you can barely feel the wind and no whitecaps. Look at the
treetops and you see lots of wind up there. A windsurfer on an 5.0 to 8.5
day shlogging half of the time while guys on their medium or small kites
planing 100% of the time, going upwind, and boosting big airs. Usually (but
not always), if we can't plane no way a windsurfer can plane. Many times, if
we are on our big kites (16m -19.5m) the windsurfers sit on the beach (or
stay home) and hope that the wind drops down to the water.





24 Aug 2005 22:03:37
LeeD
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

So I guess it's locale that determines whether kiting or windsurfing is
the desired mode of sport!
Don't forget wide open beaches, no solid objects downwind, no too
many sunbathers on the shore, and steady, consistent winds.
But for real, nothing planes up and stays upwind like a 10.7 sail and
a Formula board.....easily 6-12mph winds, fast and lots of options up
and downwind.....



24 Aug 2005 23:24:23
Paul Braunbehrens
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

According to the guys around here, the answer is no. I've asked them
repeatedly this exact question. They say formula gear will plane up
easier than a kite, if you know what you're doing. There are of course
all kinds of other advantages.


In article <1LmdnXrCsN7pTpHeRVn-ug@comcast.com >, zephyr
<sailboarding@gmail.com > wrote:
can a
> big ass kite plane up sooner than a ba sail?
>
> Dave
>
>
>


25 Aug 2005 06:23:01
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Hippieboy, you didn't say where you are from but maybe the windsurfers
there are on there 6.5's with there 100 liter boards like I said in my
earlier post. I know I would have been planing in the same winds that
the 22 meter kite was in doing nothing if I were on my formula board.
Any other board and I would have been sitting on the beach as well.



25 Aug 2005 08:06:10
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

In this discussion the standard should be the ability to plane upwind
and not just getting on to a plane. A kiter can plane downwind in
enough wind to hold the kite up but they will have to swim in and walk
back where as the windsurfer on a jumbo rig will maybe pump up to a
semi plane but will be able to slog back in the same wind. Big kites
have a lot of weight so it takes a bit of wind to keep them up and they
arn't very aerodynamic so they don't go upwind very well either so,
they can reach back and forth but not point up very well in maybe 6-10
mph. My wife, who is a experienced kiter and especially strong in light
air can plane upwind and plane on all points of sail in 8-9 mph average
with her 13m and her light air twintip if the wind is somewhat steady
so her and other light weights can go out, plane, have fun without a
lot of work in wind most of us would just slog around and maybe Formula
types would stay up but not easially. Your buddy will not plane in 8-10
except maybe downwind, then he will spend his time walking back.
Anyway, no free lunch for kters either as most of the time light air is
not steady either and once the kite falls in and doesn't have the wind
for relaunch then, a major hassle getting back. So, they need solid,
stronger wind too.



25 Aug 2005 10:56:27
zephyr
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Thanks all for your replies,
I didn't think that kiting would be the silver bullet of light wind sports,
but just wanted to be sure.
and, looking further, the really large kites are as expensive as a really
large rig.

a hellfish 25m kite is $2000, while a 10m retro with all 100% carbon
everything is $2200.

http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.2/it.A/id.46/.f

vs

http://www.sailworks.com/04-05/category.cfm?category=28

also, watching some promo videos for this ginormous kite, advertising
that, this was the "only kite in the air" you can see windsurfers out
planning around in the background

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/videos/vg05day1.wmv


Dave


<quadzilla41@charter.net > wrote in message
news:1124982370.890669.234360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> In this discussion the standard should be the ability to plane upwind
> and not just getting on to a plane. A kiter can plane downwind in
> enough wind to hold the kite up but they will have to swim in and walk
> back where as the windsurfer on a jumbo rig will maybe pump up to a
> semi plane but will be able to slog back in the same wind. Big kites
> have a lot of weight so it takes a bit of wind to keep them up and they
> arn't very aerodynamic so they don't go upwind very well either so,
> they can reach back and forth but not point up very well in maybe 6-10
> mph. My wife, who is a experienced kiter and especially strong in light
> air can plane upwind and plane on all points of sail in 8-9 mph average
> with her 13m and her light air twintip if the wind is somewhat steady
> so her and other light weights can go out, plane, have fun without a
> lot of work in wind most of us would just slog around and maybe Formula
> types would stay up but not easially. Your buddy will not plane in 8-10
> except maybe downwind, then he will spend his time walking back.
> Anyway, no free lunch for kters either as most of the time light air is
> not steady either and once the kite falls in and doesn't have the wind
> for relaunch then, a major hassle getting back. So, they need solid,
> stronger wind too.
>




25 Aug 2005 18:56:04
Steve Elliott
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

"zephyr" <sailboarding@gmail.com > wrote in
news:RvKdnZ2dnZ0mpoObnZ2dneZ3kN6dnZ2dRVn-052dnZ0@comcast.com:

> also, watching some promo videos for this ginormous kite, advertising
> that, this was the "only kite in the air" you can see windsurfers out
> planning around in the background
>
> http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/videos/vg05day1.wmv
>
>

And you can also infer that kiters pick their noses and listen to cracker
music.

Steve


25 Aug 2005 13:44:40
Craig Goudie
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Ooh, ooh, I listen to David Lowery alla time.
I think I feel a kite session coming on,
-Craig

"Steve Elliott" <jse6582@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:Xns96BD7967CB30Ejse4964sbcglobalnet@64.164.98.7...
> "zephyr" <sailboarding@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:RvKdnZ2dnZ0mpoObnZ2dneZ3kN6dnZ2dRVn-052dnZ0@comcast.com:
>
>> also, watching some promo videos for this ginormous kite, advertising
>> that, this was the "only kite in the air" you can see windsurfers out
>> planning around in the background
>>
>> http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/videos/vg05day1.wmv
>>
>>
>
> And you can also infer that kiters pick their noses and listen to cracker
> music.
>
> Steve




25 Aug 2005 21:18:28
sergio
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

I pride myself on planning before anyone else (being very light/
efficient+formula/custom gear),
I can plain before any kite can with my 9.2m2+96cm wide custom board, there
couple of conditions
where kites will do better, if the wind by the shore is strong a bit higher
up (and nothing low) and kites can reach it,
and big shore break/shallow water /light wind combo, kites don't have to
worry about
jumbo fins and can keep their kites safe from the shore break, unlike us
with big sails....




25 Aug 2005 17:35:43
Hippieboy
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

<d.saxe@att.net > wrote in message
news:1124976181.881184.150820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hippieboy, you didn't say where you are from but maybe the windsurfers
> there are on there 6.5's with there 100 liter boards

This is true.

I kite (used to windsurf) primarily on Lake Winnipeg* in Manitoba, Canada.
Most guys here have 100+ to 160-ish liter boards for their "light wind"
gear. Only a few have shelled out the money for some formula gear and I
haven't seen them around lately (likely sailing at other beaches). Even
though it gets you out planing early, many of the guys are not interested in
formula gear because of it's size and durability issues. It's just not as
much fun, unless you are into racing (not a lot of that here), as smaller
gear. Not much you can do but plane early and go in straight lines.

If what the formula guys here were doing was as impressive in light winds as
what the kiters are doing in light winds there would certainly be more
formula gear than kiting gear here. I get more sailing days in (from about
10-30 knots) using less gear than any windsurfer around here. My whole
kiting quiver for water, snow and ground can fit in the trunk (and back
seat).

* Lake Winnipeg is the 11th largest freshwater lake in the world, noted for
it's Northerlies which regularly churn up 8 foot (2.5 m) seas. The lake is
over 300 nautical miles in length and covers an area of 24,500 kmē (9460
milesē ). The south basin's area covers over 4,500 kmē (1740 milesē ).


--
*****************************************************************
Home is Where the Wind Blows...

Myron "HippieBoy", Webmaster, Kiteboarding Manitoba
http://www.kiteboardingmanitoba.com
*****************************************************************




25 Aug 2005 22:20:07
(PeteCresswell)
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Per zephyr:
>hat brings me to the question, what is going to be better in light winds
>for planing, a 10.5 sail on a 85cm wide board, or,
>a 20 meter kite. forget about the slogging ride home vs the swim. can a
>big ass kite plane up sooner than a ba sail?

Looks like a major PITA factory when the wind dies and that 20m kite falls out
of the air.
--
PeteCresswell


25 Aug 2005 22:22:08
(PeteCresswell)
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Per (PeteCresswell):
>Looks like a major PITA factory when the wind dies and that 20m kite falls out
>of the air.

Also, if the wind comes up and you're under a 20m kite, I'd guess there's not
place to hide...
--
PeteCresswell


25 Aug 2005 18:57:27
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

I used to see kiters on Maui off Kihei when the wind dies and its not
like a windsurfer where if needed you can derig and paddle in. These
guys are on a wakeboard and have to swim it in. No fun if you are a
mile out. I saw a guy one NIGHT at the Maui sunset walk out of the
water with a board and no kite. He said somthing about sharks by his
kite. I couldn't quite figure it out but he didn't look like he wanted
to talk much, don't know why, so I kept my mouth shut.



26 Aug 2005 06:23:53
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Let's face it, neither kiting nor windsurfing in light winds with big
gear is any fun for very long. ;-)



26 Aug 2005 08:37:21
zephyr
Re: wind minimum for Kiting


"Hippieboy" <windsurfmanitoba@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:8HrPe.696$qP3.9203@news1.mts.net...
> <d.saxe@att.net> wrote in message
> news:1124976181.881184.150820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Hippieboy, you didn't say where you are from but maybe the windsurfers
>> there are on there 6.5's with there 100 liter boards
>
> This is true.
>
> I kite (used to windsurf) primarily on Lake Winnipeg* in Manitoba, Canada.
> Most guys here have 100+ to 160-ish liter boards for their "light wind"
> gear. Only a few have shelled out the money for some formula gear and I
> haven't seen them around lately (likely sailing at other beaches). Even
> though it gets you out planing early, many of the guys are not interested
> in
> formula gear because of it's size and durability issues. It's just not as
> much fun, unless you are into racing (not a lot of that here), as smaller
> gear. Not much you can do but plane early and go in straight lines.
>
> If what the formula guys here were doing was as impressive in light winds
> as
> what the kiters are doing in light winds there would certainly be more
> formula gear than kiting gear here. I get more sailing days in (from about
> 10-30 knots) using less gear than any windsurfer around here. My whole
> kiting quiver for water, snow and ground can fit in the trunk (and back
> seat).
>
> * Lake Winnipeg is the 11th largest freshwater lake in the world, noted
> for
> it's Northerlies which regularly churn up 8 foot (2.5 m) seas. The lake is
> over 300 nautical miles in length and covers an area of 24,500 kmē (9460
> milesē ). The south basin's area covers over 4,500 kmē (1740 milesē ).
>
>

oh, and let me add has some of the nicest sand beaches that I've seen,
the sand is super fine - the water is definityl cold though




> --
> *****************************************************************
> Home is Where the Wind Blows...
>
> Myron "HippieBoy", Webmaster, Kiteboarding Manitoba
> http://www.kiteboardingmanitoba.com
> *****************************************************************
>
>




26 Aug 2005 21:43:46
Hippieboy
Re: wind minimum for Kiting

Only part of the time ;- )

The lake is pretty cold just after the ice is completely off the lake,
usually between mid April to 3rd week in May. However, it only takes a week
or so after ice free for temperatures tolerable enough to go without boots
or gloves. It does warm up quickly reaching mid to high teens (celsius) by
early to mid June. By the end of June and to mid August it reaches a 21C
(room temp) average and has been known to reach 24C-26C for a few days
during that time. Then begins to cool, the season usually goes to the end of
September. But has been known to go as late as mid November. In the fall the
water is often warmer than the air temperatures.

Right now the water sits at 18C or 19C.

I use an Ocean Rodeo Pyro drysuit, or a 3/2 short arm, or a 2mm shorty. We
usually get a number of days where we can go in just shorts too.


"zephyr" <sailboarding@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:L6SdnZ2dnZ1wUxyunZ2dncOGkt6dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@comcast.com...
>
> "Hippieboy" <windsurfmanitoba@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8HrPe.696$qP3.9203@news1.mts.net...
> > <d.saxe@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:1124976181.881184.150820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > * Lake Winnipeg is the 11th largest freshwater lake in the world, noted
> > for
> > it's Northerlies which regularly churn up 8 foot (2.5 m) seas. The lake
is
> > over 300 nautical miles in length and covers an area of 24,500 kmē (9460
> > milesē ). The south basin's area covers over 4,500 kmē (1740 milesē ).
> >
> >
>
> oh, and let me add has some of the nicest sand beaches that I've seen,
> the sand is super fine - the water is definityl cold though
>
>
>
>
> > --
> > *****************************************************************
> > Home is Where the Wind Blows...
> >
> > Myron "HippieBoy", Webmaster, Kiteboarding Manitoba
> > http://www.kiteboardingmanitoba.com
> > *****************************************************************
> >