29 Aug 2005 06:00:39
Windandsurf
Sail Trim once in footstraps

WOO-HOO! Finally got in the front footstrap!!! Wind was light in
Hatteras last week, but with the new 9.0 (and Wardog's Freeweed) I was
able to get in either strap first or harness first.

Now a new question arises: in the stone age (pre-footstraps), I was
perfectly balanced with the rig while harnessed (until getting launched
in a gust, of course).

The first thing I noticed once I got in the front strap is that I felt
I had to really push the boom forward with my front hand to stay
balanced. Is this a marginal wind problem, or is there some adjustment
I need to make in the rig, harness lines, or stance?

Thanks, Leon.

P.S. Props to Fox Watersports for a super-fast nose repair.



29 Aug 2005 07:27:20
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Sounds like you have the harness lines too far forward. The effect of
pushing your boom forward with your front hand let you sheet in with
the back hand. Also make sure that you use a lot of toe pressure to
keep the board from turning upwind, and push off with the front leg to
keep the board headed downwind.

Good luck
Stu Snodgrass



29 Aug 2005 09:09:03
LeeD
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

And raise your booms about another 6" from the best non strap
position.
Not using straps, you locate yourself closer to the mast base and
control the rig by sheeting in and out.
In the straps, you're farther away, it comes down, and you try never
to sheet out....you lean out harder to counter the rig forces instead.



29 Aug 2005 17:12:46
Glenn Woodell
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Before you start making any adjustments, it may be that you are not going fast
enough to get the sail raked back and your body all the way into position. I
would imagine that if you were then you would have had both feet right at the
straps rather than just the front one. I see a lot of people only able to get
the front foot in. There is a reason for this, You do not "go" to the straps.
You "end up" there when youare going fast enough and on a full, or nearly so,
plane.

Not that he said he had to push the boom forward, not sheet in or out.

Glenn

In article <1125320439.713233.251110@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com >,
lturkevich@mdslaw.com says...
>
>WOO-HOO! Finally got in the front footstrap!!! Wind was light in
>Hatteras last week, but with the new 9.0 (and Wardog's Freeweed) I was
>able to get in either strap first or harness first.
>
>Now a new question arises: in the stone age (pre-footstraps), I was
>perfectly balanced with the rig while harnessed (until getting launched
>in a gust, of course).
>
>The first thing I noticed once I got in the front strap is that I felt
>I had to really push the boom forward with my front hand to stay
>balanced. Is this a marginal wind problem, or is there some adjustment
>I need to make in the rig, harness lines, or stance?
>
>Thanks, Leon.
>
>P.S. Props to Fox Watersports for a super-fast nose repair.
>



29 Aug 2005 10:50:45
Windandsurf
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Glenn, you're right, the problem was not sheeting in or sheeting out,
but trying to keep the rig tilted forward to generate mast base
pressure while already hooked in. My board speed definitely was not at
the terror threshold I've experienced in the past.

The sequence when hooked in first (as I recall) was:
1) I hook in,
2) I get my weight in the harness and push the rig forward using the
front hand to help get weight off the front foot,
3) Slip front foot into strap and extend front leg, while controlling
trim w/ back foot. (I found that the board shifted upwind a bit while I
lifted the front foot, and then came back downwind as I extended the
front foot once strapped in).

I can tell you that as soon as I stopped pushing the rig forward, or
the wind decided to die on me, the board turned upwind and *splash*

Whenever I got in the front strap first, I had to hang on the boom so
much that my butt was hitting the chop; I don't think I was ever able
to hook in afterward without choking the rig in the process.

So going back to my original question, was this a symptom of not enough
wind (power in the sail), or do I need to be more efficient with
weightless feet? I WAS planing, after all.

Thanks.



29 Aug 2005 10:55:11
LeeD
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Not enough wind AND you aren't going fast enough, with not enough
wind coming ahead of you also.
Sheeting in and out is a byproduct of sailing out of straps, meaning,
it's NOT your problem here, but something you picked up from sailing
out of straps.
Farther back you get, more you gotta point your toes, weight balls of
feet, unweight the heel.



29 Aug 2005 13:31:41
Windandsurf
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

OK, so it sounds like there is planing out of the straps in marginal
conditions, and planing IN the straps in nuclear conditions. (And point
zee toes)

Thanks.



29 Aug 2005 13:41:47
ScottG
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

I'm guessing that you may be pushing down on the tail of the board
rather than pushing sideways on the fin.
9.0 sail and new fin, I'm assuming modern wide board (if not, then you
may have mast track geometry issues).

One reason you find you need so much MFP is that you are trying to
counteract the weight you are putting on the tail. Try focusing on
pushing sideways against the fin with your back foot and not down onto
the board.

The fact that you round up when unweighting the front foot also
indicates that you are stepping down on the rail with your rear foot.

If I need MFP, I usually can get enough by hanging down onto the booms
rather than pushing the boom forward towards the nose. If you are
hooked in and planing, there should be no need to swing the boom
forward for MFP - the only time I would push the boom forward is when
slogging.

I think that you are pushing down on the board rather than sidways on
the fin and also not committing enough weight through the harness and
into the rig.

Good luck
ScottG

Windandsurf wrote:
> Glenn, you're right, the problem was not sheeting in or sheeting out,
> but trying to keep the rig tilted forward to generate mast base
> pressure while already hooked in. My board speed definitely was not at
> the terror threshold I've experienced in the past.
>
> The sequence when hooked in first (as I recall) was:
> 1) I hook in,
> 2) I get my weight in the harness and push the rig forward using the
> front hand to help get weight off the front foot,
> 3) Slip front foot into strap and extend front leg, while controlling
> trim w/ back foot. (I found that the board shifted upwind a bit while I
> lifted the front foot, and then came back downwind as I extended the
> front foot once strapped in).
>
> I can tell you that as soon as I stopped pushing the rig forward, or
> the wind decided to die on me, the board turned upwind and *splash*
>
> Whenever I got in the front strap first, I had to hang on the boom so
> much that my butt was hitting the chop; I don't think I was ever able
> to hook in afterward without choking the rig in the process.
>
> So going back to my original question, was this a symptom of not enough
> wind (power in the sail), or do I need to be more efficient with
> weightless feet? I WAS planing, after all.
>
> Thanks.



29 Aug 2005 22:22:30
Glenn Woodell
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

There is a lot in between that you left out. That's the
comfortably-powered-while-in-the-straps. That's what we all strive to
obtain. As soon as you start planing, weight that harness as much as
possible. As Dana Miller once said to me, "Think light thoughts."

This will keep you planing. Now point the toes and bear off just a
bit. Don't worry about your lower heading. As you power up and your
speed picks up, you will feel the desire to step back a bit. When you
do, look down and you should see that yoru feet are right at both
straps. Also note that as you get back there you will take the sail
with you. That's how you rake the sail. Just like getting in the
straps, you don't rake the sail really, it ends up there.

Be careful that you don't weight your feet while you make the
transition. Occasionally loosen your grip and use just your finger
tips. This will ensure that you are weighting your harness properly.

Glenn

On 29 Aug 2005 13:31:41 -0700, "Windandsurf" <lturkevich@mdslaw.com >
wrote:

>OK, so it sounds like there is planing out of the straps in marginal
>conditions, and planing IN the straps in nuclear conditions. (And point
>zee toes)
>
>Thanks.



29 Aug 2005 20:04:14
Marius
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps


Glenn Woodell wrote:
> There is a lot in between that you left out. That's the
> comfortably-powered-while-in-the-straps. That's what we all strive to
> obtain. As soon as you start planing, weight that harness as much as
> possible. As Dana Miller once said to me, "Think light thoughts."

I don't get this part. This is where I get launched :( How long is this
transition supposed to last? 2 seconds, 5 seconds, 10 seconds?

Marius



29 Aug 2005 21:43:52
dansawyeror
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps



Glenn Woodell wrote:

SNIP

. Also note that as you get back there you will take the sail
> with you. That's how you rake the sail. Just like getting in the
> straps, you don't rake the sail really, it ends up there.
>
SNIP

Glenn,

I was in this situation recently and observed some other sailors. They were
raked back further. (and going faster) When I tried to rake back I slowed down.
I asked one of them about the trim difference and his response was I was a
little undersailed. Is his explanation accurate?

Dan


29 Aug 2005 21:44:30
dansawyeror
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps



Glenn Woodell wrote:

SNIP

. Also note that as you get back there you will take the sail
> with you. That's how you rake the sail. Just like getting in the
> straps, you don't rake the sail really, it ends up there.
>
SNIP

Glenn,

I was in this situation recently and observed some other sailors. They were
raked back further. (and going faster) When I tried to rake back I slowed down.
I asked one of them about the trim difference and his response was I was a
little undersailed. Is his explanation accurate?

Dan


30 Aug 2005 19:28:50
AD.
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:43:52 -0700, dansawyeror wrote:

> Glenn Woodell wrote:
>
> . Also note that as you get back there you will take the sail
>> with you. That's how you rake the sail. Just like getting in the straps,
>> you don't rake the sail really, it ends up there.
>
> I was in this situation recently and observed some other sailors. They
> were raked back further. (and going faster) When I tried to rake back I
> slowed down. I asked one of them about the trim difference and his
> response was I was a little undersailed. Is his explanation accurate?

Probably - most people are generally a little underpowered when getting to
grips with this stuff.

If you're not going fast enough, stepping back will put the tail of the
board into the water at a steeper angle increasing drag.

The faster you go the less board surface area needs to be in contact with
the water to support your weight. More speed = more lift, although because
you are still at sea level: same lift at faster speed = less wetted
surface area. As the wetted surface area decreases, you'll notice that the
geometric centre of that contact area moves back as well. That means that
the spot you can stand on without upsetting the trim moves back too.

When the centre of that contact spot is further forward than where you are
standing your weight will be trying sink the tail and increasing drag.

More sail power should help you overcome this. Or if you have enough sail,
try to pick up more speed before moving back. If your sail feels way out
of control at these speeds, you might not have enough downhaul - ask
another sailor to have a look for you.

This having you weight over the right spot is also why hanging your weight
on the harness is good - more weight through the mastfoot means that your
feet can be further back for the same trim angle and you can get in the
straps sooner.

--
Cheers
Anton



30 Aug 2005 08:36:55
Bob Jacobson
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

As your board starts to plane, the front of the board comes out of the
water, moving the center of lift of the board toward the rear, as well as
the center of lateral resistance. So, you need to take steps back on the
board to keep your center of gravity over the center of lift of the board,
and you need to rake the sail back to keep the center of effort of the sail
in line with the center of lateral resistance of the board. You should be
keeping the arches of your feet over the centerline of the board as you move
back on the board. As you are moving back, the board accelerates, which
brings the apparent wind more from the nose of the board, so you have to
sheet in to maintain the sail trim. Note that sheeting and raking the sail
are separate things: how much you sheet depends on the apparent wind speed.
How much you rake the sail depends on the board speed.

When your rear foot is bumping into the rear footstrap, you can lift your
front foot and insert it into the front footstrap. As you are moving your
front foot, use your rear foot to control the roll of the board. When you've
got your front foot in the strap, lift your front heel and move your back
foot to the rear footstrap. Once you are in both footstraps, you can work on
closing the gap - getting the foot of the sail as close to the deck as
possible, so as to minimize the drag of the sail. This will involve both
raking the sail back and sheeting in. The trick here is to make sure you
keep the board flat in roll. Also, since your are raking your sail aft, you
will have to be shifting your hips to keep your center of gravity over the
center of lift of the board. At this point you can shift your body weight
back and forth to find the pitch trim of the board that gives you the best
speed.

If it's windy, all this back can happen very quickly - not so windy, not so
fast. Also note that finding the combination of board and sail trim that
gives the best speed is a goal that can keep you happily occupied for years.



"dansawyeror" <dansawyeror@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:4313E42E.2040800@comcast.net...
>
>
> Glenn Woodell wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> . Also note that as you get back there you will take the sail
> > with you. That's how you rake the sail. Just like getting in the
> > straps, you don't rake the sail really, it ends up there.
> >
> SNIP
>
> Glenn,
>
> I was in this situation recently and observed some other sailors. They
were
> raked back further. (and going faster) When I tried to rake back I slowed
down.
> I asked one of them about the trim difference and his response was I was a
> little undersailed. Is his explanation accurate?
>
> Dan




30 Aug 2005 07:35:57
Glenn Woodell
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

When yo are getting launched it's because you are too far forward on
the board. Imagine taking another half step toward the board! Stay
back a little as you bear off.

Glenn

On 29 Aug 2005 20:04:14 -0700, "Marius" <wind2riven@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>Glenn Woodell wrote:
>> There is a lot in between that you left out. That's the
>> comfortably-powered-while-in-the-straps. That's what we all strive to
>> obtain. As soon as you start planing, weight that harness as much as
>> possible. As Dana Miller once said to me, "Think light thoughts."
>
>I don't get this part. This is where I get launched :( How long is this
>transition supposed to last? 2 seconds, 5 seconds, 10 seconds?
>
>Marius



30 Aug 2005 07:38:21
Glenn Woodell
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Don't worry about other sailors too much. It could be that you did not
have enough sail, you were not going fast enough (for various
reasons), or their masts are further forward in their tracks.

Don't force betting back or raking the sail. Once you are going fast
enough you will end up there automatically. When you eventually get
way overpowered you will be wanting to walk off the tail of your
board. :)

Glenn

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:43:52 -0700, dansawyeror
<dansawyeror@comcast.net > wrote:

>
>
>Glenn Woodell wrote:
>
>SNIP
>
>. Also note that as you get back there you will take the sail
>> with you. That's how you rake the sail. Just like getting in the
>> straps, you don't rake the sail really, it ends up there.
>>
>SNIP
>
>Glenn,
>
>I was in this situation recently and observed some other sailors. They were
>raked back further. (and going faster) When I tried to rake back I slowed down.
>I asked one of them about the trim difference and his response was I was a
>little undersailed. Is his explanation accurate?
>
>Dan



30 Aug 2005 09:50:43
Marius
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps


Glenn Woodell wrote:
> When yo are getting launched it's because you are too far forward on
> the board. Imagine taking another half step toward the board! Stay
> back a little as you bear off.

I am having trouble in that dance ... the most frequent scenario is:

1. gust comes along while I am picking up speed
2. most of the time I need to spill some of the wind by sheeting out
for a split second
3. I sheet back in as fast as I can, I start to pick up speed
4. I hook in and I start to move back, generally hooking in
significantly unloads the board and I can feel it changing gears. Yeah!
5. gust dies out I start to round upwind. No!
6. I apply mast foot pressure by pushing with my front arm and leaning
towards the mast foot
7. I can feel I am really light on my feet, however if I try to reach
further back and get in the front footstrap I sink the rail/tail
8. the next gust comes along, I can't unhook and I am out

I am just not getting the timing right. On the plus side I get lots of
practice on my waterstarts.

Probably one more lesson is that I really need :)

Marius



30 Aug 2005 11:23:10
Craig Goudie
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

I have one little suggestion on (6). Pushing with the front arm is good,
but the best way to
provide MFP (Mast Foot Pressure) is to shink down and apply force downward
(not forward)
on the mast through the boom. Since you're already hooked in, this should
make you light on
your feet, and provide some additional protection/prevention from being
thrown by the next gust.

Good luck, my guess is that within the next 4 or 5 times you sail, you'll
be wondering
why you even asked the question.

-Craig




"Marius" <wind2riven@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1125420643.310467.247600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Glenn Woodell wrote:
>> When yo are getting launched it's because you are too far forward on
>> the board. Imagine taking another half step toward the board! Stay
>> back a little as you bear off.
>
> I am having trouble in that dance ... the most frequent scenario is:
>
> 1. gust comes along while I am picking up speed
> 2. most of the time I need to spill some of the wind by sheeting out
> for a split second
> 3. I sheet back in as fast as I can, I start to pick up speed
> 4. I hook in and I start to move back, generally hooking in
> significantly unloads the board and I can feel it changing gears. Yeah!
> 5. gust dies out I start to round upwind. No!
> 6. I apply mast foot pressure by pushing with my front arm and leaning
> towards the mast foot
> 7. I can feel I am really light on my feet, however if I try to reach
> further back and get in the front footstrap I sink the rail/tail
> 8. the next gust comes along, I can't unhook and I am out
>
> I am just not getting the timing right. On the plus side I get lots of
> practice on my waterstarts.
>
> Probably one more lesson is that I really need :)
>
> Marius
>




30 Aug 2005 18:20:23
Bob Jacobson
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

It sounds like when you are in the gust and pulling hard on the sail that
you are putti9ng your weight on your heels. When the gust dies, and the
force on the sail is no longer counterbalancing your weight, your heels are
sinking the windward rail and turning you upwind. As the gust dies, try
getting your body more over the board with your weight more on the balls of
your feet. Keep the board flat!

And forget all that mastfoot pressure stuff. The universal is a hinge.
Pushing down on the boom with the sail raked back will not put downward
pressure on the mastfoot, and I don't know why you would want to do that
anyhow. Pitch trim of the board is accomplished by moving your center of
gravity fore and aft.

Also, instead of sheeting out in a gust, try bending your knees more to
lower your CG and lean back more (but don't dig in those heels!). The extra
speed will make it easier to move back on the board and get your feet into
the straps.


"Marius" <wind2riven@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1125420643.310467.247600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Glenn Woodell wrote:
> > When yo are getting launched it's because you are too far forward on
> > the board. Imagine taking another half step toward the board! Stay
> > back a little as you bear off.
>
> I am having trouble in that dance ... the most frequent scenario is:
>
> 1. gust comes along while I am picking up speed
> 2. most of the time I need to spill some of the wind by sheeting out
> for a split second
> 3. I sheet back in as fast as I can, I start to pick up speed
> 4. I hook in and I start to move back, generally hooking in
> significantly unloads the board and I can feel it changing gears. Yeah!
> 5. gust dies out I start to round upwind. No!
> 6. I apply mast foot pressure by pushing with my front arm and leaning
> towards the mast foot
> 7. I can feel I am really light on my feet, however if I try to reach
> further back and get in the front footstrap I sink the rail/tail
> 8. the next gust comes along, I can't unhook and I am out
>
> I am just not getting the timing right. On the plus side I get lots of
> practice on my waterstarts.
>
> Probably one more lesson is that I really need :)
>
> Marius
>




30 Aug 2005 18:24:29
Cliff Frost
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

I'll repeat the tip that worked for me--at step (5) concentrate on
using your feet to keep the windward rail of the board a little
bit higher than the leeward rail. That should keep you from rounding
upwind.

Cheers,
Cliff

Marius <wind2riven@gmail.com > wrote:

> Glenn Woodell wrote:
> > When yo are getting launched it's because you are too far forward on
> > the board. Imagine taking another half step toward the board! Stay
> > back a little as you bear off.

> I am having trouble in that dance ... the most frequent scenario is:

> 1. gust comes along while I am picking up speed
> 2. most of the time I need to spill some of the wind by sheeting out
> for a split second
> 3. I sheet back in as fast as I can, I start to pick up speed
> 4. I hook in and I start to move back, generally hooking in
> significantly unloads the board and I can feel it changing gears. Yeah!
> 5. gust dies out I start to round upwind. No!
> 6. I apply mast foot pressure by pushing with my front arm and leaning
> towards the mast foot
> 7. I can feel I am really light on my feet, however if I try to reach
> further back and get in the front footstrap I sink the rail/tail
> 8. the next gust comes along, I can't unhook and I am out

> I am just not getting the timing right. On the plus side I get lots of
> practice on my waterstarts.

> Probably one more lesson is that I really need :)

> Marius



30 Aug 2005 11:37:57
Marius
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Thanks for the tips guys! You are right, time to think with/about my
feet.



31 Aug 2005 10:00:51
AD.
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:20:23 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:

While the rest of your post was good advice, I take issue with this bit.

> And forget all that mastfoot pressure stuff. The universal is a hinge.
> Pushing down on the boom with the sail raked back will not put downward
> pressure on the mastfoot, and I don't know why you would want to do that
> anyhow. Pitch trim of the board is accomplished by moving your center of
> gravity fore and aft.

Hinges can still transmit loads - they just can't transmit bending
moments. As long as the overall moments around the mastfoot are balanced
it won't rotate, but it is still transmitting vertical weight and
horizontal lift to the board.

The boards trim is determined by the loads transmitted to it via your feet
and the mastfoot (and also the fin). While moving around your centre of
gravity will affect the distribution of these loads - it isn't the whole
picture. Hanging your weight in the harness generally increases what is
being transmitted through the mastfoot and decreases what is being
transmitted through your feet. This allows your centre of gravity to move
further back without affecting where the overall sum of those forces is
located.

--
Cheers
Anton



30 Aug 2005 20:22:25
dansawyeror
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Bob,

My learning point is very near yours so your listing is very fresh.

I have found in those 'intermediate' situations where the wind is variable as
you describe is to bend my knees. This gives added time when he wind picks up
and being hooked in.

The other trick is to increase the spread on the harness and mimic a roller
harness by moving the balance point when the wind picks up.

These two things have cut my catapults to near zero.

Dan

Bob Jacobson wrote:
> It sounds like when you are in the gust and pulling hard on the sail that
> you are putti9ng your weight on your heels. When the gust dies, and the
> force on the sail is no longer counterbalancing your weight, your heels are
> sinking the windward rail and turning you upwind. As the gust dies, try
> getting your body more over the board with your weight more on the balls of
> your feet. Keep the board flat!
>
> And forget all that mastfoot pressure stuff. The universal is a hinge.
> Pushing down on the boom with the sail raked back will not put downward
> pressure on the mastfoot, and I don't know why you would want to do that
> anyhow. Pitch trim of the board is accomplished by moving your center of
> gravity fore and aft.
>
> Also, instead of sheeting out in a gust, try bending your knees more to
> lower your CG and lean back more (but don't dig in those heels!). The extra
> speed will make it easier to move back on the board and get your feet into
> the straps.
>
>
> "Marius" <wind2riven@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1125420643.310467.247600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Glenn Woodell wrote:
>>
>>>When yo are getting launched it's because you are too far forward on
>>>the board. Imagine taking another half step toward the board! Stay
>>>back a little as you bear off.
>>
>>I am having trouble in that dance ... the most frequent scenario is:
>>
>>1. gust comes along while I am picking up speed
>>2. most of the time I need to spill some of the wind by sheeting out
>>for a split second
>>3. I sheet back in as fast as I can, I start to pick up speed
>>4. I hook in and I start to move back, generally hooking in
>>significantly unloads the board and I can feel it changing gears. Yeah!
>>5. gust dies out I start to round upwind. No!
>>6. I apply mast foot pressure by pushing with my front arm and leaning
>>towards the mast foot
>>7. I can feel I am really light on my feet, however if I try to reach
>>further back and get in the front footstrap I sink the rail/tail
>>8. the next gust comes along, I can't unhook and I am out
>>
>>I am just not getting the timing right. On the plus side I get lots of
>>practice on my waterstarts.
>>
>>Probably one more lesson is that I really need :)
>>
>>Marius
>>
>
>
>


30 Aug 2005 20:22:50
dansawyeror
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Bob,

My learning point is very near yours so your listing is very fresh.

I have found in those 'intermediate' situations where the wind is variable as
you describe is to bend my knees. This gives added time when he wind picks up
and being hooked in.

The other trick is to increase the spread on the harness and mimic a roller
harness by moving the balance point when the wind picks up.

These two things have cut my catapults to near zero.

Dan

Bob Jacobson wrote:
> It sounds like when you are in the gust and pulling hard on the sail that
> you are putti9ng your weight on your heels. When the gust dies, and the
> force on the sail is no longer counterbalancing your weight, your heels are
> sinking the windward rail and turning you upwind. As the gust dies, try
> getting your body more over the board with your weight more on the balls of
> your feet. Keep the board flat!
>
> And forget all that mastfoot pressure stuff. The universal is a hinge.
> Pushing down on the boom with the sail raked back will not put downward
> pressure on the mastfoot, and I don't know why you would want to do that
> anyhow. Pitch trim of the board is accomplished by moving your center of
> gravity fore and aft.
>
> Also, instead of sheeting out in a gust, try bending your knees more to
> lower your CG and lean back more (but don't dig in those heels!). The extra
> speed will make it easier to move back on the board and get your feet into
> the straps.
>
>
> "Marius" <wind2riven@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1125420643.310467.247600@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Glenn Woodell wrote:
>>
>>>When yo are getting launched it's because you are too far forward on
>>>the board. Imagine taking another half step toward the board! Stay
>>>back a little as you bear off.
>>
>>I am having trouble in that dance ... the most frequent scenario is:
>>
>>1. gust comes along while I am picking up speed
>>2. most of the time I need to spill some of the wind by sheeting out
>>for a split second
>>3. I sheet back in as fast as I can, I start to pick up speed
>>4. I hook in and I start to move back, generally hooking in
>>significantly unloads the board and I can feel it changing gears. Yeah!
>>5. gust dies out I start to round upwind. No!
>>6. I apply mast foot pressure by pushing with my front arm and leaning
>>towards the mast foot
>>7. I can feel I am really light on my feet, however if I try to reach
>>further back and get in the front footstrap I sink the rail/tail
>>8. the next gust comes along, I can't unhook and I am out
>>
>>I am just not getting the timing right. On the plus side I get lots of
>>practice on my waterstarts.
>>
>>Probably one more lesson is that I really need :)
>>
>>Marius
>>
>
>
>


02 Sep 2005 19:20:48
Bob Jacobson
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

I was responding to the notion that by hanging more of your body weight on
the boom (making the harness lines more vertical), more downward pressure
could be put on the mastfoot. If you pull down harder on the boom, the
result will be that the mast will rake back farther. If the board flattens
out when you hang more weight on the boom, it is because you've moved your
CG forward.

Consider this situation: you are on a sailboat at anchor, standing right
next to the mast. Now grab the mast and lift your feet off the deck. Will
the mast foot pressure have increased? Yes. Will the pitch trim of the boat
have changed? No. Now letyourself back down to the deck and walk to the back
of the boat. Will the pitch trim chang? Yes.



"AD." <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:1125439284.c0c819e922d24c53391e2c85ae73cc96@teranews...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:20:23 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:
>
> While the rest of your post was good advice, I take issue with this bit.
>
> > And forget all that mastfoot pressure stuff. The universal is a hinge.
> > Pushing down on the boom with the sail raked back will not put downward
> > pressure on the mastfoot, and I don't know why you would want to do that
> > anyhow. Pitch trim of the board is accomplished by moving your center of
> > gravity fore and aft.
>
> Hinges can still transmit loads - they just can't transmit bending
> moments. As long as the overall moments around the mastfoot are balanced
> it won't rotate, but it is still transmitting vertical weight and
> horizontal lift to the board.
>
> The boards trim is determined by the loads transmitted to it via your feet
> and the mastfoot (and also the fin). While moving around your centre of
> gravity will affect the distribution of these loads - it isn't the whole
> picture. Hanging your weight in the harness generally increases what is
> being transmitted through the mastfoot and decreases what is being
> transmitted through your feet. This allows your centre of gravity to move
> further back without affecting where the overall sum of those forces is
> located.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Anton
>




03 Sep 2005 11:22:11
AD.
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:20:48 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:

> I was responding to the notion that by hanging more of your body weight
> on the boom (making the harness lines more vertical), more downward
> pressure could be put on the mastfoot. If you pull down harder on the
> boom, the result will be that the mast will rake back farther.
> If the board flattens out when you hang more weight on the boom, it is
> because you've moved your CG forward.

Where does that extra downward force on the boom go? If not through the
mast foot? It can't go through your feet, because that would be like
"lifting yourself up by your bootstraps" in reverse. Pulling down on
something lightens the weight on your feet.

> Consider this situation: you are on a sailboat at anchor, standing right
> next to the mast. Now grab the mast and lift your feet off the deck.
> Will the mast foot pressure have increased? Yes. Will the pitch trim of
> the boat have changed? No.

That is only because the fixed mast foot on the boat can transmit a
bending moment (which a windsurfers mast foot can't). The following
explanation assumes that your CG stays over the same spot before and after
you lift yourself up. Because your CG is not directly over the mast foot,
your weight on the mast creates a moment around the mast foot that just
happens to be the same as the moment you were creating by standing on the
deck. In terms the boat itself, the moments around its centre of bouyancy
haven't changed either, so the trim is the same.

> Now letyourself back down to the deck and walk to the back of the boat.
> Will the pitch trim chang? Yes.

Yup, because this time you have increased the moment arm.

Because a windsurfing mast foot can't transmit these moments to the
board, the sailor has to balance them with other forces on the rig or the
rig will fall over.

Static equilibrium requires that all the forces AND all the moments are
balanced. Anything out of balance will cause an acceleration - eg
increasing one force only will cause the rig to rotate eg a catapult or
falling over backwards.

The usefulness of mast foot pressure is really only because we have
footstraps in fixed positions and want to use them as early as possible
for more control. If there were no straps and we could always put our feet
in the optimal position, we probably wouldn't need the crutch of mast foot
pressure to make our 'effective' CG seem further forward to the board.

Once the board is moving fast enough and the boards centre of lift is
somewhere between our footstraps there is no real need for mastfoot
pressure until we slow down in a lull.

--
Cheers
Anton



03 Sep 2005 00:07:40
Bob Jacobson
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

The downward force on the boom is offsetting the righting force of the sail
on the mast. If the downward force on the boom exceeds the righting force of
the sail, the mast will rotate back. (this assumes the board is on a beam
reach.). This would be a lot easier if we could just sit down and draw some
vector diagrams.

How about this: you're sailing along steadily at a beam reach with the mast
at a certain rake angle, and the boom sheeted at a givven angle.All the
forces are in equilibrium. How do you hang more of your weight on the boom?
What changes? How can that change without changing the position of the boom
and/or the mast? (aside from a bird landing on your head?) How is your CG
changing in relation to the board?



"AD." <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:1125703369.d07738b67fb1b56967c0033c4b11b160@teranews...
> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:20:48 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:
>
> > I was responding to the notion that by hanging more of your body weight
> > on the boom (making the harness lines more vertical), more downward
> > pressure could be put on the mastfoot. If you pull down harder on the
> > boom, the result will be that the mast will rake back farther.
> > If the board flattens out when you hang more weight on the boom, it is
> > because you've moved your CG forward.
>
> Where does that extra downward force on the boom go? If not through the
> mast foot? It can't go through your feet, because that would be like
> "lifting yourself up by your bootstraps" in reverse. Pulling down on
> something lightens the weight on your feet.
>
> > Consider this situation: you are on a sailboat at anchor, standing right
> > next to the mast. Now grab the mast and lift your feet off the deck.
> > Will the mast foot pressure have increased? Yes. Will the pitch trim of
> > the boat have changed? No.
>
> That is only because the fixed mast foot on the boat can transmit a
> bending moment (which a windsurfers mast foot can't). The following
> explanation assumes that your CG stays over the same spot before and after
> you lift yourself up. Because your CG is not directly over the mast foot,
> your weight on the mast creates a moment around the mast foot that just
> happens to be the same as the moment you were creating by standing on the
> deck. In terms the boat itself, the moments around its centre of bouyancy
> haven't changed either, so the trim is the same.
>
> > Now letyourself back down to the deck and walk to the back of the boat.
> > Will the pitch trim chang? Yes.
>
> Yup, because this time you have increased the moment arm.
>
> Because a windsurfing mast foot can't transmit these moments to the
> board, the sailor has to balance them with other forces on the rig or the
> rig will fall over.
>
> Static equilibrium requires that all the forces AND all the moments are
> balanced. Anything out of balance will cause an acceleration - eg
> increasing one force only will cause the rig to rotate eg a catapult or
> falling over backwards.
>
> The usefulness of mast foot pressure is really only because we have
> footstraps in fixed positions and want to use them as early as possible
> for more control. If there were no straps and we could always put our feet
> in the optimal position, we probably wouldn't need the crutch of mast foot
> pressure to make our 'effective' CG seem further forward to the board.
>
> Once the board is moving fast enough and the boards centre of lift is
> somewhere between our footstraps there is no real need for mastfoot
> pressure until we slow down in a lull.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Anton
>




05 Sep 2005 09:01:26
AD.
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:07:40 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:

> The downward force on the boom is offsetting the righting force of the
> sail on the mast.

You seem to be mixing forces (linear) and moments (rotational) - both need
to be balanced separately for equilibrium. The extra downward (linear)
force on the boom needs to be offset either by extra upward (linear)
reaction from either your feet or the mastfoot, and it can't be your feet
as their reaction was lowered by pulling down on the boom.

But you are right about the (rotational) moment that downward force
creates around the mast foot needing to be balanced by the (rotational)
moment created by the forward component of the rigs lift.

If the forces aren't balanced the system will accelerate linearly, and if
the moments aren't balanced the system will accelerate rotationally.

> If the downward force on the boom exceeds the righting
> force of the sail, the mast will rotate back. (this assumes the board is
> on a beam reach.).
> This would be a lot easier if we could just sit down
> and draw some vector diagrams.
>
> How about this: you're sailing along steadily at a beam reach with the
> mast at a certain rake angle, and the boom sheeted at a givven angle.All
> the forces are in equilibrium. How do you hang more of your weight on the
> boom? What changes? How can that change without changing the position of
> the boom and/or the mast? (aside from a bird landing on your head?) How is
> your CG changing in relation to the board?

Agreed, to be able increase the downward force on the rig without falling
off you would have to compensate by changing something else - I never
claimed otherwise. And after all learning to windsurf is all about
learning to make these subtle continual subconscious adjustments and
compensations :)

But as I mentioned earlier generally you only want to put pressure on the
mast foot is during acceleration or trying to minimise decelleration
during a lull (and then only because you want to maximise the time your
feet are in the straps). It could possibly be argued that neither
situation is at equilibrium anyway (although it is still vertical
equilibrium which makes it moot). When at cruising speed, MFP generally
isn't needed or wanted.

We're veering off a little and mostly agree with each other - my original
point was to show that weight could be transferred through the mastfoot
even though it is a hinge. Whether or not that means your CG absolutely
HAS to move or not to do so is a hair splitting sidetrack IMO.

--
Cheers
Anton



05 Sep 2005 22:27:55
Bob Jacobson
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

I'm still waiting to hear what changes one does have to make to hang more
weight on the boom and increase mastfoot pressure.



"AD." <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:1125867726.1eab1e390dfa1b26d06bc01da8537feb@teranews...
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:07:40 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:
>
> > The downward force on the boom is offsetting the righting force of the
> > sail on the mast.
>
> You seem to be mixing forces (linear) and moments (rotational) - both need
> to be balanced separately for equilibrium. The extra downward (linear)
> force on the boom needs to be offset either by extra upward (linear)
> reaction from either your feet or the mastfoot, and it can't be your feet
> as their reaction was lowered by pulling down on the boom.
>
> But you are right about the (rotational) moment that downward force
> creates around the mast foot needing to be balanced by the (rotational)
> moment created by the forward component of the rigs lift.
>
> If the forces aren't balanced the system will accelerate linearly, and if
> the moments aren't balanced the system will accelerate rotationally.
>
> > If the downward force on the boom exceeds the righting
> > force of the sail, the mast will rotate back. (this assumes the board
is
> > on a beam reach.).
> > This would be a lot easier if we could just sit down
> > and draw some vector diagrams.
> >
> > How about this: you're sailing along steadily at a beam reach with the
> > mast at a certain rake angle, and the boom sheeted at a givven angle.All
> > the forces are in equilibrium. How do you hang more of your weight on
the
> > boom? What changes? How can that change without changing the position of
> > the boom and/or the mast? (aside from a bird landing on your head?) How
is
> > your CG changing in relation to the board?
>
> Agreed, to be able increase the downward force on the rig without falling
> off you would have to compensate by changing something else - I never
> claimed otherwise. And after all learning to windsurf is all about
> learning to make these subtle continual subconscious adjustments and
> compensations :)
>
> But as I mentioned earlier generally you only want to put pressure on the
> mast foot is during acceleration or trying to minimise decelleration
> during a lull (and then only because you want to maximise the time your
> feet are in the straps). It could possibly be argued that neither
> situation is at equilibrium anyway (although it is still vertical
> equilibrium which makes it moot). When at cruising speed, MFP generally
> isn't needed or wanted.
>
> We're veering off a little and mostly agree with each other - my original
> point was to show that weight could be transferred through the mastfoot
> even though it is a hinge. Whether or not that means your CG absolutely
> HAS to move or not to do so is a hair splitting sidetrack IMO.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Anton
>




05 Sep 2005 22:59:42
Sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Hi Bob,
I'm not going to get into linear and rotational physics here.
If you pull "down" on the boom, you will increase the rake angle of the rig.
Beyond an certain point raking the rig back is very counter prodictive in terms
of speed and control.
What you really want to do when you are in the footstraps is to lean outboard,
trying to keep the rig nearly vertical as the sail develops the most forward
drive when raked back to the optimum angle and keeping it nearly vertical.
So, the sum forces of the rig trying to pull you over to the other side, and
your body weight need to balance each other. When they do you will be exerting
no downward force on the board with your feet, (however this does vary a bit
with the type of board and the available amount of footstrap offset from the
centerline, a bit more weight on the board and a more vertical stance with
smaller narrower boards with little or no FS offset, and less weight on the
board with larger rigs, wider boards, and a more laid back stance).
So, when you strike the balance between your body weight, and the forces
generated by the rig, all of the combined forces will show up at the mast foot.
You cannot generate more "MFP" by "pulling" in any direction.
At this point you should have all the weight on the harness and you hands and
arms are just on the boom as "adjusters" for sheeting angle and rake angle.
You feet are on the board, in the footstraps, but there should be almost no
weight on them. The are used to control the roll trim angle of the board, and
push across the top of the fin.
Hope this helps,


Bob Jacobson wrote:

> I'm still waiting to hear what changes one does have to make to hang more
> weight on the boom and increase mastfoot pressure.
>
> "AD." <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:1125867726.1eab1e390dfa1b26d06bc01da8537feb@teranews...
> > On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:07:40 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:
> >
> > > The downward force on the boom is offsetting the righting force of the
> > > sail on the mast.
> >
> > You seem to be mixing forces (linear) and moments (rotational) - both need
> > to be balanced separately for equilibrium. The extra downward (linear)
> > force on the boom needs to be offset either by extra upward (linear)
> > reaction from either your feet or the mastfoot, and it can't be your feet
> > as their reaction was lowered by pulling down on the boom.
> >
> > But you are right about the (rotational) moment that downward force
> > creates around the mast foot needing to be balanced by the (rotational)
> > moment created by the forward component of the rigs lift.
> >
> > If the forces aren't balanced the system will accelerate linearly, and if
> > the moments aren't balanced the system will accelerate rotationally.
> >
> > > If the downward force on the boom exceeds the righting
> > > force of the sail, the mast will rotate back. (this assumes the board
> is
> > > on a beam reach.).
> > > This would be a lot easier if we could just sit down
> > > and draw some vector diagrams.
> > >
> > > How about this: you're sailing along steadily at a beam reach with the
> > > mast at a certain rake angle, and the boom sheeted at a givven angle.All
> > > the forces are in equilibrium. How do you hang more of your weight on
> the
> > > boom? What changes? How can that change without changing the position of
> > > the boom and/or the mast? (aside from a bird landing on your head?) How
> is
> > > your CG changing in relation to the board?
> >
> > Agreed, to be able increase the downward force on the rig without falling
> > off you would have to compensate by changing something else - I never
> > claimed otherwise. And after all learning to windsurf is all about
> > learning to make these subtle continual subconscious adjustments and
> > compensations :)
> >
> > But as I mentioned earlier generally you only want to put pressure on the
> > mast foot is during acceleration or trying to minimise decelleration
> > during a lull (and then only because you want to maximise the time your
> > feet are in the straps). It could possibly be argued that neither
> > situation is at equilibrium anyway (although it is still vertical
> > equilibrium which makes it moot). When at cruising speed, MFP generally
> > isn't needed or wanted.
> >
> > We're veering off a little and mostly agree with each other - my original
> > point was to show that weight could be transferred through the mastfoot
> > even though it is a hinge. Whether or not that means your CG absolutely
> > HAS to move or not to do so is a hair splitting sidetrack IMO.
> >
> > --
> > Cheers
> > Anton
> >



06 Sep 2005 11:59:46
AD.
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:27:55 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:

> I'm still waiting to hear what changes one does have to make to hang more
> weight on the boom and increase mastfoot pressure.

You mean those "subtle continual subconscious adjustments and
compensations"?

I dunno, they are subtle and subconscious ;)

Roger mentions a good example. As you're moving outboard in a seat
harness (eg by straightening your arms and legs) and as long as the rig
stays vertical while your legs get more horizontal - the distribution of
weight between your feet and the rig will change.

I think the whole idea or point of MFP maybe isn't as important these days
with short wide boards and mast track further back. But back on the old
long(er) skinny shortboards with forward mast tracks, learning to apply
MFP was very important when trying to get them planing in marginal winds.

These days on widestyles it is much easier to stand around where the
footstraps are without stalling the tail. And having your feet closer to
the rig means you can't really lean on the rig (without going over the
front) like you used to be able to.

--
Cheers
Anton



05 Sep 2005 19:29:10
ScottG
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps


AD. wrote:
[snip]
> These days on widestyles it is much easier to stand around where the
> footstraps are without stalling the tail.
> Cheers
> Anton

Yes, but just because you can get away with it does not mean you
should.
By standing on the board (pressing down on the board), the nose rises,
drag increases and you look like a dork.

I re-iterate my suggestion that in addition to hanging off the booms,
what the original poster and many folks need (unless wave sailing a
more upright stance board) is SIDEWAYS PRESSURE ON THE FIN, which will
give additional lift and increase speed and most importantly NOT sink
the tail or rail like folks do when they push down with their feet.

Rather than just trying to lighten the feet (which can only be done by
hanging on the rig more), by focusing on pushing sideways, the downward
force applied by the feet will naturally diminish.

Most of us have a lot of force going through our feet - the difference
between us and the original poster is that we push SIDEWAYS and he is
pushing DOWN.

-you may now resume the extreme ultra geeky engineering debate of how
many angels can exert mastbase pressure on the head of a pin -



05 Sep 2005 19:39:11
Marius
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Heh, looks like this discussion got a bit complex.

In the mean time I tried dropping down by bending the knees as a mean
to compensate for gusts when barely start to plane. It seems to be
working!

The way I look at it is that when you do not have enough lateral force
from the sail most of the weight is on the board. By sitting in the
harness (bending the knees) and leaning sideways towards the bow I can
apply a lot more pressure (move the overall GC) without having to move
my feet. I think of it as leaning in the mast foot through a bent cane.
Not sure if this is more than a helper image but it seems to be
working. I used to try to stand taller and press down and forward with
my hands to apply MFP. Standing taller complicates my life when the
gust comes :)

Also paying more attention to the sideways trim of the board helped a
lot! I actually tipped the board downwind and it seemed to stop the
upwind swing.

This session less windy than the one when I used to get hammered. So
I'll have to see some other time if I got better in stronger winds :)

Thanks a lot for all the comments.

Marius


AD. wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:27:55 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:
>
> > I'm still waiting to hear what changes one does have to make to hang more
> > weight on the boom and increase mastfoot pressure.
>
> You mean those "subtle continual subconscious adjustments and
> compensations"?
>
> I dunno, they are subtle and subconscious ;)
>
> Roger mentions a good example. As you're moving outboard in a seat
> harness (eg by straightening your arms and legs) and as long as the rig
> stays vertical while your legs get more horizontal - the distribution of
> weight between your feet and the rig will change.
>
> I think the whole idea or point of MFP maybe isn't as important these days
> with short wide boards and mast track further back. But back on the old
> long(er) skinny shortboards with forward mast tracks, learning to apply
> MFP was very important when trying to get them planing in marginal winds.
>
> These days on widestyles it is much easier to stand around where the
> footstraps are without stalling the tail. And having your feet closer to
> the rig means you can't really lean on the rig (without going over the
> front) like you used to be able to.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Anton



06 Sep 2005 15:25:59
AD.
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:29:10 -0700, ScottG wrote:

>
> AD. wrote:
> [snip]
>> These days on widestyles it is much easier to stand around where the
>> footstraps are without stalling the tail. Cheers
>> Anton
>
> Yes, but just because you can get away with it does not mean you should.
> By standing on the board (pressing down on the board), the nose rises,
> drag increases and you look like a dork.

True but I wasn't meaning quite to that extent :)

Some (not sure about all) widestyle boards actually need you to get back
on the board to pop them onto their rear planing surface. Staying in the
traditional centre of some of these widestyle boards can actually hinder
planing depending on the rocker line.

But I've heard much better explanations of the details in posts from eg
Dan and Roger etc. And other posters will be more familiar with a greater
variety of boards than me as well :)

> -you may now resume the extreme ultra geeky engineering debate of how many
> angels can exert mastbase pressure on the head of a pin -

Nah, I'm all geeked out now.

--
Cheers
Anton



06 Sep 2005 03:28:12
Sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

Hi Scott,
You are correct, if you are talking older long flat rockerline slalom
boards,
but on more modern wider boards, and especially the really wide ones,
getting the nose up (and in your opinion looking like a dork) is really the

only way to get planing.
Check the rockerline on a modern board that's 85 cm + wide, and also alot
of the
somewhat wider freerides, and you will find the planing surface only
extends as far forward as the front footstraps.
Ahead of the front footstraps you have a short "blending" of flat into
positve rocker (often called the "rocker transition"), and then
progressively more upward curvature
toward the nose.
If you don't get the nose UP to what may seem to you to be a dorky level,
you haven't even gotten the planing surface (fore and aft trim) into the
positive (front higher than the back) trim necessary to get the board to
pop up over it's own bow wave which stays stuck at (or forward of) the
rocker transition.
So you are trying to use a "declined plane" (the opposite of an inclined
plane)
to get the board to plane over the water.
So you must get quite far back on the board, rear foot just in front of the
rear footstrap (s), rear foot right over the fore/aft centerline so you can
control the rail to rail (roll axis) trim.
Get the nose high enough to get the water coming out behind the rocker
transition, and the plaining surface angle of attack" inclined" or trimmed
so the board can plane off freely, and keep the roll trim as flat as
possible, and you can easily plane off.
If you are underpowered, a couple of pumps to "bounce" the board onto a
plane, and then some foot pumping on the fin to further loosen your board
up and you will continue to accelerate.
Getting a constant acceleration from dead in the water, to fully planing,
and moving your weight to keep the acceleration going is really the key
here.
I agree that many sailors do not "push" across the top of the fin enough,
but rather tend to push down and weight the board.
Until the board has accelerated enough for the nose to "drop over" mast
foot pressure really isn't desireable.
When you accelerate to fully planing, just as you hook in, you start to
develop mast foot pressure, and this helps "push" the board over the bow
wave.
If you time all this correctly, with progressive weight transfer back as
the board develops progessively more speed and can support more weight
further back, then
hook in, push the fin, and add mast foot pressure, getting planing, even in
marginal conditions is fairly easy.
This thread, with all the pushing and pulling, weight dropping, sitting
down, etc.is pretty funny, as until you get back on the board, have the
requisite speed, are accelerating progressively, and have hooked in,
anything you do to try to create or synthesize mast foot pressure in
usually just stalling the rig, screwing up the trim
(fore/aft/and rail to rail) putting weight on the board, and decreasing the
acceleration rate. Pulling down, before you have the requisite speed,
simply rakes the rig back too soon and stalls it, then you must put more
weight on the board to support yourself, which often affects the rail to
rail trim, and the acceleration slows down or stops altogether. This is
when you find yourself too far back on the board and the tail sinks, and
you look like a dork.
Hope this helps,

ScottG wrote:

> AD. wrote:
> [snip]
> > These days on widestyles it is much easier to stand around where the
> > footstraps are without stalling the tail.
> > Cheers
> > Anton
>
> Yes, but just because you can get away with it does not mean you
> should.
> By standing on the board (pressing down on the board), the nose rises,
> drag increases and you look like a dork.
>
> I re-iterate my suggestion that in addition to hanging off the booms,
> what the original poster and many folks need (unless wave sailing a
> more upright stance board) is SIDEWAYS PRESSURE ON THE FIN, which will
> give additional lift and increase speed and most importantly NOT sink
> the tail or rail like folks do when they push down with their feet.
>
> Rather than just trying to lighten the feet (which can only be done by
> hanging on the rig more), by focusing on pushing sideways, the downward
> force applied by the feet will naturally diminish.
>
> Most of us have a lot of force going through our feet - the difference
> between us and the original poster is that we push SIDEWAYS and he is
> pushing DOWN.
>
> -you may now resume the extreme ultra geeky engineering debate of how
> many angels can exert mastbase pressure on the head of a pin -



06 Sep 2005 16:17:41
AD.
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:39:11 -0700, Marius wrote:

> Heh, looks like this discussion got a bit complex.

Yep typical usenet sidetracks. At least you came back :)

> Also paying more attention to the sideways trim of the board helped a lot!
> I actually tipped the board downwind and it seemed to stop the upwind
> swing.

Great, it sounds like you're getting the hang of it. A lot of the time,
it's just practice and time on the water and it all comes right.

Sailing a board isn't a natural thing for most people :)

--
Cheers
Anton



06 Sep 2005 15:17:14
Tom - Chicago
Re: Sail Trim once in footstraps

One thing about big boards and sails - there is only one way to handle the
gusts - keep your posture and drive the extra energy thru your legs and
harness - soon the pressure in the sail will turn into flat out speed.

Tom - Chicago


"Marius" <wind2riven@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1125974350.971841.105380@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Heh, looks like this discussion got a bit complex.
>
> In the mean time I tried dropping down by bending the knees as a mean
> to compensate for gusts when barely start to plane. It seems to be
> working!
>
> The way I look at it is that when you do not have enough lateral force
> from the sail most of the weight is on the board. By sitting in the
> harness (bending the knees) and leaning sideways towards the bow I can
> apply a lot more pressure (move the overall GC) without having to move
> my feet. I think of it as leaning in the mast foot through a bent cane.
> Not sure if this is more than a helper image but it seems to be
> working. I used to try to stand taller and press down and forward with
> my hands to apply MFP. Standing taller complicates my life when the
> gust comes :)
>
> Also paying more attention to the sideways trim of the board helped a
> lot! I actually tipped the board downwind and it seemed to stop the
> upwind swing.
>
> This session less windy than the one when I used to get hammered. So
> I'll have to see some other time if I got better in stronger winds :)
>
> Thanks a lot for all the comments.
>
> Marius
>
>
> AD. wrote:
>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:27:55 +0000, Bob Jacobson wrote:
>>
>> > I'm still waiting to hear what changes one does have to make to hang
>> > more
>> > weight on the boom and increase mastfoot pressure.
>>
>> You mean those "subtle continual subconscious adjustments and
>> compensations"?
>>
>> I dunno, they are subtle and subconscious ;)
>>
>> Roger mentions a good example. As you're moving outboard in a seat
>> harness (eg by straightening your arms and legs) and as long as the rig
>> stays vertical while your legs get more horizontal - the distribution of
>> weight between your feet and the rig will change.
>>
>> I think the whole idea or point of MFP maybe isn't as important these
>> days
>> with short wide boards and mast track further back. But back on the old
>> long(er) skinny shortboards with forward mast tracks, learning to apply
>> MFP was very important when trying to get them planing in marginal winds.
>>
>> These days on widestyles it is much easier to stand around where the
>> footstraps are without stalling the tail. And having your feet closer to
>> the rig means you can't really lean on the rig (without going over the
>> front) like you used to be able to.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers
>> Anton
>