27 Jul 2003 22:36:35
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Hi all,
I find this thread to be pretty funny as no one (at least in the
multitude of posts
I looked at) including Mike or Hans or anyone else really ever specified
when and
where each technique is appropriate. Imagine that?
Mike F. sails in the Gorge, on small boards, with a single or minimal
offset rear footstrap (s) , in strong wind conditions (the stronger the
better, right Mike).
The Gorge is a river, with some degree of current flowing from the
mountains and
deserts of eastern Oregon/Washington down to the Pacific Ocean.
The heat in the desert is what fuels the Gorge "wind machine".
So, for Mike's conditions, on Mike's gear, his advice is probably fairly
good.
For those of you who sail in much less, or marginal winds, on lakes,
with no current
some of what Mike says might be applicable, but much of it is not.
For those of you who sail on rigs larger than 6.0 most of the time,
there simply isn't
the same sort of power available to sail small boards in big terrain,
like in the Gorge.
So, you may have less wind, no current, a rig that's twice the size of
Mike's.
Is his advice still applicable...? I don't think so.
Mike often seems to assume that everyone knows his style of sailing, his
conditions,
etc. But they don't, but will try his advice anyway, as they are having
a problem doing something some other way, and anything new is worth a
try, right?
Going BFF on a wider board (Mike's widest board is probably < 60 cm and
maybe
even less) with the rear footstraps offset simply is not going to work,
unless you are
powered out of your mind and make a stab at the footstraps and somehow
connect your back foot with the rear footstrap.
Wide boards, with modern rockerlines, REQUIRE you to put your back foot
right
in the middle of the board a little ahead of the rear footstrap, so you
have some ability to steer the board while you are getting your front
foot settled into the front
footstrap. So, on wide boards with widely offset footstraps, BFF simply
isn't going
to work, not for Mike, not for anyone, as if you put any weight that far
back, and
that far off the centerline, the board will make an abrupt turn upwind.

So guys, please put a little more general conditions detail into your
posts so we don't
have people trying things in their little pond, in < 12 knots of wind,
that we all know
only work in 25 knot + with the wind going against the current.
How you get into the footstraps is not something that there's a right
way or a wrong
way, unless you specify the windspeed, the current speed and direction
vs the wind direction, board type and size, rig size, footstrap offset,
and a few other little incidental factors I can't think of right now.
Even knowing all the details, there's still
no right or wrong, there's only what works for each sailor in their
conditions on their
specific gear.
Hope this helps,




27 Jul 2003 20:32:18
Paul Braunbehrens
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Sorry, but this is simply not true. Read my original post. It was
probably blowing an average of 15 that day, I was on a 145 JP with 6.0
sail. The run with the back foot was the best run of the day, so maybe
it was blowing 18, but iWindsurf shows that wind speeds never went past
that.

The straps are very offset each on the rail.

These are exactly the conditions you say are impossible to do BFF, yet
that is what I did.

The reason it worked is because I stuck my front foot forward enough so
that I was able to steer the board with the front foot while getting
the back foot into the strap.


In article <3F248C32.DCD92A2C@mindspring.com >, Roger Jackson
<sailquik@mindspring.com > wrote:

> Hi all,
> I find this thread to be pretty funny as no one (at least in the
> multitude of posts
> I looked at) including Mike or Hans or anyone else really ever specified
> when and
> where each technique is appropriate. Imagine that?
> Mike F. sails in the Gorge, on small boards, with a single or minimal
> offset rear footstrap (s) , in strong wind conditions (the stronger the
> better, right Mike).
> The Gorge is a river, with some degree of current flowing from the
> mountains and
> deserts of eastern Oregon/Washington down to the Pacific Ocean.
> The heat in the desert is what fuels the Gorge "wind machine".
> So, for Mike's conditions, on Mike's gear, his advice is probably fairly
> good.
> For those of you who sail in much less, or marginal winds, on lakes,
> with no current
> some of what Mike says might be applicable, but much of it is not.
> For those of you who sail on rigs larger than 6.0 most of the time,
> there simply isn't
> the same sort of power available to sail small boards in big terrain,
> like in the Gorge.
> So, you may have less wind, no current, a rig that's twice the size of
> Mike's.
> Is his advice still applicable...? I don't think so.
> Mike often seems to assume that everyone knows his style of sailing, his
> conditions,
> etc. But they don't, but will try his advice anyway, as they are having
> a problem doing something some other way, and anything new is worth a
> try, right?
> Going BFF on a wider board (Mike's widest board is probably < 60 cm and
> maybe
> even less) with the rear footstraps offset simply is not going to work,
> unless you are
> powered out of your mind and make a stab at the footstraps and somehow
> connect your back foot with the rear footstrap.
> Wide boards, with modern rockerlines, REQUIRE you to put your back foot
> right
> in the middle of the board a little ahead of the rear footstrap, so you
> have some ability to steer the board while you are getting your front
> foot settled into the front
> footstrap. So, on wide boards with widely offset footstraps, BFF simply
> isn't going
> to work, not for Mike, not for anyone, as if you put any weight that far
> back, and
> that far off the centerline, the board will make an abrupt turn upwind.
>
> So guys, please put a little more general conditions detail into your
> posts so we don't
> have people trying things in their little pond, in < 12 knots of wind,
> that we all know
> only work in 25 knot + with the wind going against the current.
> How you get into the footstraps is not something that there's a right
> way or a wrong
> way, unless you specify the windspeed, the current speed and direction
> vs the wind direction, board type and size, rig size, footstrap offset,
> and a few other little incidental factors I can't think of right now.
> Even knowing all the details, there's still
> no right or wrong, there's only what works for each sailor in their
> conditions on their
> specific gear.
> Hope this helps,
>
>


27 Jul 2003 21:17:34
Paul Braunbehrens
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

In article <SZ0Va.4269$R43.1302@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com >, Mike F
<isobars@urxSpamDam.com > wrote:

> 9. For the 17th (?) time, you incorrectly presume I actually put WEIGHT on
> that back foot before I'm planing.

If you are having trouble getting in the back strap pay attention to
this point. The problem with FFF that I was having is that the strap
is too far back, so when I lift my back foot to get it in the strap the
center of balance shifts in such a way that the board rounds up.

If the front foot isn't in the strap yet, you can put it in the spot
where it keeps the board going in the righ direction, not the spot
where the foot strap happens to be.

I guess my request to not rehash all the old stuff fell on deaf ears.
Oh well, maybe someone will read this stuff and find it useful.


28 Jul 2003 09:54:04
Stergios Papadakis
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!


I have two boards. They are both old and skinny, with
one rear strap, but as Mike says, I think this is irrelevant.
I have sailed both boards with the same rig AND fin.
One is easier to BFF, the other is easier to FFF.
So, I guess it depends.

Stergios


28 Jul 2003 09:55:36
Stergios Papadakis
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Stergios Papadakis wrote:
>
> I have two boards. They are both old and skinny, with
> one rear strap, but as Mike says, I think this is irrelevant.
> I have sailed both boards with the same rig AND fin.
> One is easier to BFF, the other is easier to FFF.
> So, I guess it depends.
>
> Stergios

I forgot to mention, the bigger board,
sailed in lighter winds, is easier to BFF.

Stergios


28 Jul 2003 10:21:01
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Hi Paul,
I haven't sailed the JP 145 so I have no idea how wide it is, or whether
Werner
Gnigler is using really modern "flat at the back" rockerlines. Since Werner is

a more traditional shaper my guess is that the board may have a much longer
planing surface than more modern boards.
But, you say you were in 15 knots of wind (that's alot of wind to many who
sail
on lakes etc.) with a 6.0 M2 rig.
That's nearly fully powered up.
From the photos/specs I see of the JP Free Ride 145 it's 277 cm long and only
70 cm wide. The footstraps are only offset about
8 cm (3") total. That's simply not much footstrap offset.
Compare this to a modern wide board at 90-100 cm wide with a footstrap offset
of 30-50 cm (11.8"-19.6") (The INBOARD straps on a Start are 35 cm offset the
outboard straps being 50 cm same as the Formula 117 and 147) and you can
begin to see the huge difference.
So, you specify a JP 145 (no one who does not have one knows that it's a
fairly
narrow more old school design) and people with boards half again as wide with
5 X as much footstrap offset start trying to go BFF.
As I said, it doesn't work because those reading your post don't have a frame
of
reference other than JP 145. The don't know or understand that the JP 145 is
relatively narrow at 70 cm wide. The Starboard Carve 145 is 7 cm (2 3/4")
wider
and has significantly more footstrap offset.
What gave things away here was your statement that you kept your front foot
forward with weight on it. Unless you were well powered up, on a more
traditional
long rockerline board, having your weight this far forward would not work very
well
because the planing surface of a modern rockerline board would still be
inclined down at the front. Negative planing surfaces don't plane. It's like
having an anchor
out.
If you are advocating standing on your board with your front foot up just
behind the
mast foot and sticking your back foot into the rear strap, I wish you lot's of
luck.
That's perhaps the least "balanced" and untenable foot position I can think
of.
Try this.
Move back slowly and progressively on your board until your back foot is a bit
in
front of your rear footstraps. (How far forward depends on your weight and the

board's tail width.) Then concentrate your weight on that back foot, right
over the
board's fore/aft centerline.
Then commit all your weight to the rig through your harness (or if you aren't
in a
harness yet, through your arms). Now slide your front foot into the front
footstrap.
Let the board gain more speed as the rig supports you. Then, when the board is

fully planing and stable, put even more of your weight on the rig (this
provides
mast foot pressure and will accelerate your board rather quickly).
Then put your back foot into the rear footstrap and begin to "push the fin"
driving
across the top of the fin to get the board into a slightly lee rail down
attitude.
You will fly upwind. If you just want to reach fast, flatten the board out
(rail to rail)
and go fast, but keep the MFP on by keeping your weight on the rig, and keep
pressuring the fin to get the most drive from it.
Hope this helps,.



Paul Braunbehrens wrote:

> Sorry, but this is simply not true. Read my original post. It was
> probably blowing an average of 15 that day, I was on a 145 JP with 6.0
> sail. The run with the back foot was the best run of the day, so maybe
> it was blowing 18, but iWindsurf shows that wind speeds never went past
> that.
>
> The straps are very offset each on the rail.
>
> These are exactly the conditions you say are impossible to do BFF, yet
> that is what I did.
>
> The reason it worked is because I stuck my front foot forward enough so
> that I was able to steer the board with the front foot while getting
> the back foot into the strap.
>
> In article <3F248C32.DCD92A2C@mindspring.com>, Roger Jackson
> <sailquik@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > I find this thread to be pretty funny as no one (at least in the
> > multitude of posts
> > I looked at) including Mike or Hans or anyone else really ever specified
> > when and
> > where each technique is appropriate. Imagine that?
> > Mike F. sails in the Gorge, on small boards, with a single or minimal
> > offset rear footstrap (s) , in strong wind conditions (the stronger the
> > better, right Mike).
> > The Gorge is a river, with some degree of current flowing from the
> > mountains and
> > deserts of eastern Oregon/Washington down to the Pacific Ocean.
> > The heat in the desert is what fuels the Gorge "wind machine".
> > So, for Mike's conditions, on Mike's gear, his advice is probably fairly
> > good.
> > For those of you who sail in much less, or marginal winds, on lakes,
> > with no current
> > some of what Mike says might be applicable, but much of it is not.
> > For those of you who sail on rigs larger than 6.0 most of the time,
> > there simply isn't
> > the same sort of power available to sail small boards in big terrain,
> > like in the Gorge.
> > So, you may have less wind, no current, a rig that's twice the size of
> > Mike's.
> > Is his advice still applicable...? I don't think so.
> > Mike often seems to assume that everyone knows his style of sailing, his
> > conditions,
> > etc. But they don't, but will try his advice anyway, as they are having
> > a problem doing something some other way, and anything new is worth a
> > try, right?
> > Going BFF on a wider board (Mike's widest board is probably < 60 cm and
> > maybe
> > even less) with the rear footstraps offset simply is not going to work,
> > unless you are
> > powered out of your mind and make a stab at the footstraps and somehow
> > connect your back foot with the rear footstrap.
> > Wide boards, with modern rockerlines, REQUIRE you to put your back foot
> > right
> > in the middle of the board a little ahead of the rear footstrap, so you
> > have some ability to steer the board while you are getting your front
> > foot settled into the front
> > footstrap. So, on wide boards with widely offset footstraps, BFF simply
> > isn't going
> > to work, not for Mike, not for anyone, as if you put any weight that far
> > back, and
> > that far off the centerline, the board will make an abrupt turn upwind.
> >
> > So guys, please put a little more general conditions detail into your
> > posts so we don't
> > have people trying things in their little pond, in < 12 knots of wind,
> > that we all know
> > only work in 25 knot + with the wind going against the current.
> > How you get into the footstraps is not something that there's a right
> > way or a wrong
> > way, unless you specify the windspeed, the current speed and direction
> > vs the wind direction, board type and size, rig size, footstrap offset,
> > and a few other little incidental factors I can't think of right now.
> > Even knowing all the details, there's still
> > no right or wrong, there's only what works for each sailor in their
> > conditions on their
> > specific gear.
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> >



28 Jul 2003 16:00:12
Mike F
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

I can't comprehend these people who flame someone for expressing an opinion.

Bracing an extended back leg would help if you got rammed from the rear, but
how does it affect getting "yanked over the rig?" Do you brace your BACK
foot or your FRONT foot against the rope when playing tug of war?

Since there should be no weight on that BF when going for the back strap,
missing it should not make you fall.

My inseam is 29" -- apparently on the short side. I have no problem putting
my front foot against the mast foot with my back foot in its strap, as I
might when slogging in extremely gusty winds on a sinker.

Yup ... and at least one of those world-renown Caribbean pros teaches jibing
with straight knees. Try THAT in the real world.

Mike m/

"steven" <smark@seattletimes.com > wrote in message
news:9a736991.0307281211.1544e89e@posting.google.com...
> At risk of getting flamed again, as happened previously when I posted
> on this subject, here's another of my two cents. A dedicated fffer, I
> tried bff. I missed the strap the first time and promptly fell, my
> rear end smacking the board. This never happens when I go fff, even on
> a board that I've never sailed before. The second time, I missed the
> strap again, but managed to stay upright until I got yanked over the
> rig. This happened because I couldn't have my weight back, with the
> back foot bracing and balancing me, as I normally would. That ended my
> grand experiment.
> I'll admit one thing. I'm short. My legs are short. When I'm in the
> straps, my stance is comfortable, and I don't want to get my legs any
> wider. So having my front foot to be in front of the front foot strap
> with my back leg reaching for the back strap is really awkward for me.
> Even if I got in the strap, I'd feel really spread-eagled.
> On a recent trip to the Dominican Republic, I talked to some of the
> pros out there on this subject. They laughed at bff and thought its
> supporters were actually joking with me. All of them felt that you
> stay in control much better with fff. After all, that's your jibing
> position. One of the pros said he had had a lengthy argument with Andy
> Brandt about it, with the ultimate conclusion that what works for you
> isn't necessarily going to work for everyone.





28 Jul 2003 21:39:23
Jerry McEwen
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

I'm not siding with one argument or the other; if people say BFF works
better for them, far be it from me to say they're wrong. I would like
to add something though, which is that, when learning to use straps, I
started out trying to get both feet in ASAP, but later discovered that
there were many times when it was windy enough for the front foot, but
not the back foot. Sometimes I like to sail with both feet out on the
rail, neither in a strap, but feet next to each other in the "sweet
spot".

I cannot envision same using BFF.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:36:35 -0400, "sailquik (Roger Jackson)"
<sailquik@mindspring.com > wrote:

>Hi all,
>I find this thread to be pretty funny as no one (at least in the multitude of posts

<snip >



28 Jul 2003 20:23:13
Mike F
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Sounds more like NFF than BFF or FFF.

Mike m/

"Jerry McEwen" <rec.dot@mail.not > wrote
> Sometimes I like to sail with both feet out on the
> rail, neither in a strap, but feet next to each other in the "sweet
> spot".
>
> I cannot envision same using BFF.





29 Jul 2003 03:52:52
Chris Kuryllo
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

I'm a long time FFFer who finds himself going BFF more and more often. I
even started to take out my front foot from the strap leaving my back foot
in when I hit a hole but still have enough power in the sail to get me to
the next stretch of gust. It appears to me that, WHEN GOING BFF IS POSSIBLE,
it is a faster, smoother, safer and more efficient way of getting into
straps. It works very well for me in all overpowered conditions or when I
need to take advantage of small waves or short stretches of gust to get on a
plane. Of course, what works for me does not necessary work for everybody.



"Jerry McEwen" <rec.dot@mail.not > wrote in message
news:cdnbivccj6bbctt49jc22293e85730oqkg@4ax.com...
> I'm not siding with one argument or the other; if people say BFF works
> better for them, far be it from me to say they're wrong. I would like
> to add something though, which is that, when learning to use straps, I
> started out trying to get both feet in ASAP, but later discovered that
> there were many times when it was windy enough for the front foot, but
> not the back foot. Sometimes I like to sail with both feet out on the
> rail, neither in a strap, but feet next to each other in the "sweet
> spot".
>
> I cannot envision same using BFF.
>
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:36:35 -0400, "sailquik (Roger Jackson)"
> <sailquik@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >I find this thread to be pretty funny as no one (at least in the
multitude of posts
>
> <snip>
>




29 Jul 2003 12:54:21
Wolfgang Soergel
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

sailquik (Roger Jackson) wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
> I haven't sailed the JP 145 so I have no idea how wide it is, or whether Werner
> Gnigler is using really modern "flat at the back" rockerlines. Since Werner is
>
> a more traditional shaper my guess is that the board may have a much longer
> planing surface than more modern boards.

?? Maybe i missed something but as far as i can tell the time of boards
with long flat areas forward of the tail is long over (with some
exceptions like the Mistral Flows). But in general, boards have short
"flat" spots (more correctly would be to say the minimum of curcature of
the rocker line) basically under the fin/back strap these days. Wehter
thay are regular in width, wide, super wide or super-super wide.

> But, you say you were in 15 knots of wind (that's alot of wind to many who
> sail on lakes etc.) with a 6.0 M2 rig.
> That's nearly fully powered up.

That's right, 6.0@15knots sounds fine and well powered, although i
assume that most of the wind speed numbers reported here are more like
peak windspead, maybe not the strongest gust but also not true average.
Or people say knots when they mean mph.

> From the photos/specs I see of the JP Free Ride 145 it's 277 cm long and only
> 70 cm wide. The footstraps are only offset about
> 8 cm (3") total. That's simply not much footstrap offset.
> Compare this to a modern wide board at 90-100 cm wide with a footstrap offset
> of 30-50 cm (11.8"-19.6") (The INBOARD straps on a Start are 35 cm offset the
> outboard straps being 50 cm same as the Formula 117 and 147) and you can
> begin to see the huge difference.
> So, you specify a JP 145 (no one who does not have one knows that it's a fairly
> narrow more old school design) and people with boards half again as wide with
> 5 X as much footstrap offset start trying to go BFF.

I wouldn't call the concept old school. I think it's perfectly modern
for its purpose: Get planing reasonably early, go b&f at good speed and
on good control and allow easy, smooth turning. I't simply not a race
board or detuned version of a race board but a freeride board more
similar to a blown up wave of b&j board. And as far as i can tell the
debate how to get into the straps relates well to that type of board. In
fact, i would not dare to comment on how to best get into themon a
really wide board with offset straps since i have not enough time on
them.

(I would go fff on said board btw)
--
Wolfgang


29 Jul 2003 09:39:58
Frank Weston
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

This whole discussion is sort of like what would happen if Mike said he
likes to eat dog food from the can. Lots of us would be horrified, some
would admit that they did it too, and a few might even try it. It would be
an endless topic for debate and there would never be any agreement between
the two sides.

And, at the end of the day, it wouldn't make any difference. Unless, of
course, eating dog food caused the development of special talents like the
ability to scratch behind your ear with your foot or to lick your private
parts, in which case a person might find it more efficient to go BFF.

Frank Weston




29 Jul 2003 08:35:16
Tigger
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

I've never tried BFF, but am curious what advantage it could give.
When I beach start or waterstart my board, I place my feet on the
board, and then move the front foot directly into the strap, followed
by the back. Is this possible using BFF, or does one have to take a
step down the board first? I sail with a large spread on the straps,
on modern 75-120l shortboards.
Regards


29 Jul 2003 13:06:58
steven
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

I didn't intend to get into comparing the size of any of my body parts
with anybody else's. I was merely explaining my experiment, the
results, and my analysis of the problem as it relates to me. I don't
doubt that bff works for a lot of people. But I don't seem to have the
problem (catapulting) that it seems to be solution for, and after
trying bff, I don't see any advantage to it as yet. Meanwhile, there
seem to be number of good sailors who use fff. I'm looking the world
speed record web site, and Robby Naish and Antoine Albeau both do it,
although I'm sure they can both do whatever they want. Likewise for
anybody else out there. I just don't know that one method has proven
superiority over the other, because it very much relates to the
sailor's idiosyncracies.
I got yanked over the rig because I was hunting around for the back
strap, and eventually got pulled over the front. If my weight had been
back, then I wouldn't have gotten pulled over. I really don't have my
weight distributed the way you suggest. The front foot is pushing, but
my back leg is my anchor. And if I'm going to do much sailing on one
foot, it would definitely be on my back foot.
As for the jibing comment, I think the idea is that you jibe with the
front foot in the strap and the back foot out of the strap. Yet
somehow you can stay in control and not get catapulted. So it's clear
that you can stay in control sailing this way.

"Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com > wrote in message news:<aOhVa.5499$R43.778@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com>...
> I can't comprehend these people who flame someone for expressing an opinion.
>
> Bracing an extended back leg would help if you got rammed from the rear, but
> how does it affect getting "yanked over the rig?" Do you brace your BACK
> foot or your FRONT foot against the rope when playing tug of war?
>
> Since there should be no weight on that BF when going for the back strap,
> missing it should not make you fall.
>
> My inseam is 29" -- apparently on the short side. I have no problem putting
> my front foot against the mast foot with my back foot in its strap, as I
> might when slogging in extremely gusty winds on a sinker.
>
> Yup ... and at least one of those world-renown Caribbean pros teaches jibing
> with straight knees. Try THAT in the real world.
>
> Mike m/
>
> "steven" <smark@seattletimes.com> wrote in message
> news:9a736991.0307281211.1544e89e@posting.google.com...
> > At risk of getting flamed again, as happened previously when I posted
> > on this subject, here's another of my two cents. A dedicated fffer, I
> > tried bff. I missed the strap the first time and promptly fell, my
> > rear end smacking the board. This never happens when I go fff, even on
> > a board that I've never sailed before. The second time, I missed the
> > strap again, but managed to stay upright until I got yanked over the
> > rig. This happened because I couldn't have my weight back, with the
> > back foot bracing and balancing me, as I normally would. That ended my
> > grand experiment.
> > I'll admit one thing. I'm short. My legs are short. When I'm in the
> > straps, my stance is comfortable, and I don't want to get my legs any
> > wider. So having my front foot to be in front of the front foot strap
> > with my back leg reaching for the back strap is really awkward for me.
> > Even if I got in the strap, I'd feel really spread-eagled.
> > On a recent trip to the Dominican Republic, I talked to some of the
> > pros out there on this subject. They laughed at bff and thought its
> > supporters were actually joking with me. All of them felt that you
> > stay in control much better with fff. After all, that's your jibing
> > position. One of the pros said he had had a lengthy argument with Andy
> > Brandt about it, with the ultimate conclusion that what works for you
> > isn't necessarily going to work for everyone.


30 Jul 2003 04:57:37
Chris Kuryllo
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Tigger,

The first time I went BFF was only a month ago and it happened quite
naturally. I was "fighting" with my sail and board to get going in a big
gust when I realized that my back foot was already on the back strap. So I
gave it a try and was surprised how much easier it was to point the board
more downwind and then put my front foot in the strap without a fear of
being catapulted. Although the board accelerated very fast, everything was
so smooth and I loved it.

On another day, I tried the same trick when I wanted to get on a plane in
rather underpowered conditions with small waves. I put my BFF and waited for
a wave. On the top on the wave, I raked the sail all the way back and slid
down the wave. That was just what I needed it to get on a plane and again it
was very smooth. With FFF, I had a very small success rate while trying to
take advantage of waves to get me on a plane. Usually I wasn't fast enough
with my back foot.

Just try it and see yourself whether it works for you. On the other hand, in
the conditions you sail you may not have to be this creative.

Cheers,
Chris

"Tigger" <addisonchrisnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote in message
news:5dbd4861.0307290735.2c13fb82@posting.google.com...
> I've never tried BFF, but am curious what advantage it could give.
> When I beach start or waterstart my board, I place my feet on the
> board, and then move the front foot directly into the strap, followed
> by the back. Is this possible using BFF, or does one have to take a
> step down the board first? I sail with a large spread on the straps,
> on modern 75-120l shortboards.
> Regards




29 Jul 2003 22:18:59
Paul Braunbehrens
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!


> What if there were another way to depower the sail to prevent catapults?
> A way that did not stall the sail? A way that allowed you to "master" the
> conditions, not just "survive" them. The obvious other option is to sheet out
> the sail. That way you don't need body weight or leverage. If your weight is
> on both feet, standing on the board, you should probably be able to sheet out
> rather quickly by rotating your shoulders from "parallel" to the board toward
> "square" to the board. You can stay in the harness, and leave your arms
> straight.
>
> Now I'm well out of my element. I am no instructor. Could Roger or Ellen
> or
> someone more qualified chime in and suggest whether this theory is off base or
> not?
>
> -- Larry (Yes I realize I promised to keep quiet last time, this time I *really*
> promise to keep quiet)

I don't think you need to keep quite, discussions of technique that
don't rehash old stuff are always interesting to me.

Sheeting out while only in front strap will (for me) turn the board
into the wind and or catapult me if I try to prevent it. It's like
you're on a pivot (your front foot) and you have no way of stopping the
momentum, other than unhooking and completely sheeting out and hope you
don't loose your balance.


30 Jul 2003 02:14:15
Tigger
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

I understand the difference between fff and bff, you've missed the
point of what I was trying to ask. What I mean is: Is it possible to
go bff without taking a step back down the board first, i.e. can you
jump on the board and DIRECTLY go for the backstrap, or do you have to
step back first? I'm not sure I could reach the backfootstrap from my
initial (jump on board) stance, perhaps because I like a wide
footstrap stance.
regards


"Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com > wrote in message news:<YazVa.548$Qv6.143@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com>...
> If you "place my feet on the board, and then move the front foot directly
> into the strap, followed by the back", that is by definition FFF. FFF and
> BFF in the same start are mutually exclusive. The only exception I can think
> of is when both feet enter their respective straps simultaneously, which
> I've managed only a few times.
>
> As for the advantages to BFF, set aside a day and read my explanations on
> BFF, starting with my previous post.
>
> Mike m/
>
> "Tigger" <addisonchrisnospam@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:5dbd4861.0307290735.2c13fb82@posting.google.com...
> > I've never tried BFF, but am curious what advantage it could give.
> > When I beach start or waterstart my board, I place my feet on the
> > board, and then move the front foot directly into the strap, followed
> > by the back. Is this possible using BFF, or does one have to take a
> > step down the board first? I sail with a large spread on the straps,
> > on modern 75-120l shortboards.
> > Regards


30 Jul 2003 09:18:28
Frank Weston
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Eats dog food.


"Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com > wrote in message
news:b6CVa.11$GN6.10@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> What a concept. You're setting a fine example for those having trouble
with
> FFF to follow.
>
> Mike m/
>
> "Martin Allen" <mr.magoo@virgin.net> wrote
> > I will have to try it
> > Martin
> >
> > "Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
> > news:HZyVa.494$Qv6.455@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > > Most soitainly ... most of the time. The first objective is often to
get
> > > planing, which is generaly aided by keeping our weight generally
forward
> > on
> > > the board and driving the board forward. Getting our weight forward
> starts
> > > with putting much or even most of our weight in the harness, with the
> > > remaining weight bias being imparted with our feet (if there is NO
> weight
> > on
> > > our feet, that's defined as a catapult). Forward foot weight on the
> board
> > > AND forward drive on the board are most easily achieved, seems to me,
> with
> > > the front foot ... i.e., unweighing the back foot and using the FF to
> both
> > > weight and drive the nose forward to achieve earlies planing ... or
> > winning
> > > a tug of war. Doing this leaves the back foot doing nothing AND
leaves
> us
> > > vulnerable to a catapult. Both problems are solved and time is saved
by
> > > sticking that bored back foot into its strap where it can be useful
> again
> > > even though unweighted.
> > >
> > > Now our weight is divided between the harness (the mast foot) and the
> > front
> > > foot, and the front foot is driving the board forward, promoting
earlier
> > > planing (on most boards under a meter wide). As soon as I'm planing,
> THEN
> > I
> > > transfer weight to the strapped back foot to the extent the board tail
> > will
> > > stay planing as pressure is transferred to it and footsteer with it
> > > (admittedly tougher if the back strap is way out on the very rail of a
> > wide
> > > board) while I unweigh the now unneeded FF to put it in its strap.
Thus
> > > there is never any pressure tending to sink the tail as there often is
> > when
> > > the front foot is lifted first. I FFF only when already planing fully
> AND
> > my
> > > stance and feet position happen to favor it AND I trust the wind power
> not
> > > to double in the next heartbeat AND the terrain is not too high and
> > fractal
> > > AND the mood strikes me.
> > >
> > > It's easy to see how you missed that, considering the sheer volume of
> this
> > > topic and the flood of personal issues some people feel compelled to
> force
> > > upon us.
> > >
> > > Mike m/
> > >
> > > "Martin Allen" <mr.magoo@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > > news:1ipVa.752$2u.135012@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > > > Sorry if I missed it Mike, but are you hooked in when you put your
> back
> > > foot
> > > > in?
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > > "Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:aOhVa.5499$R43.778@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > > > > I can't comprehend these people who flame someone for expressing
an
> > > > opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bracing an extended back leg would help if you got rammed from the
> > rear,
> > > > but
> > > > > how does it affect getting "yanked over the rig?" Do you brace
your
> > BACK
> > > > > foot or your FRONT foot against the rope when playing tug of war?
> > > > >
> > > > > Since there should be no weight on that BF when going for the back
> > > strap,
> > > > > missing it should not make you fall.
> > > > >
> > > > > My inseam is 29" -- apparently on the short side. I have no
problem
> > > > putting
> > > > > my front foot against the mast foot with my back foot in its
strap,
> as
> > I
> > > > > might when slogging in extremely gusty winds on a sinker.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yup ... and at least one of those world-renown Caribbean pros
> teaches
> > > > jibing
> > > > > with straight knees. Try THAT in the real world.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike m/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>




30 Jul 2003 14:21:12
BarryWind
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Re: Safety stance...
I'm a part time tele instructor and I tell my students to ignore the screams
from their brains that make them lean into the hill, when they should be
doing the opposite. It's a primal survival instinct - people don't want to
die head first - feet first will do just fine... I can relate from the
little bit of baseball that I played as a kid - sliding for home feet-first
was preferred over headfirst - gotta protect the head. Jamming a foot into
the rear strap, in all conditions, is just an instinctive way to keep from
getting pulled forward and slammed. So much for instinct...
-B

"unixmidiplugin" <hoff@bnl.gov > wrote in message
news:12075c07.0307290940.37eb46ef@posting.google.com...
>... and that you've found a "safety stance" which protects you from that
possibility.
>
> That reminds me of standing at the bottom of a steep, gnarly ski slope
> and watching skiers descend. It is common for skiers who sense that they
> are losing control to go into a "safety stance". Skiers will know what I
mean.
...snip...




30 Jul 2003 10:41:47
unixmidiplugin
cross training

"BarryWind" <barrywind@earthlink.net > wrote in message news:<svQVa.114$jg7.88@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> Re: Safety stance...
> I'm a part time tele instructor

A kindred soul! I am an advanced alpine skier, but only an
intermediate tele skier. That means that on those steep, gnarly
slopes, even while my tele instructors are yelling at me to get out
of my "survival stance" I still feel the need to "eat dogfood" (but
I'm not proud of it, and don't encourage others to emulate me).

I'm also a beginner snowboarder. I can handle groomed slopes,
but not moguls, parks, or pipes. Does that mean I'll start kiting
soon? AFAIK, one *always* straps on a snowboard FFF.

-- Larry (looking forward to my next backcountry tele trip in the
White Mountains).

P.S. Speaking of the White Mountains, someone ought to bring a
medium sized lake up there some time. Last time I was there, the
sustained winds were just over 100 MPH at the peak of Mt. Washington,
with gusts to 130. Even on the lee side, our camp kept getting
slammed by what felt like 60 knot blasts.


30 Jul 2003 11:12:12
Mike F
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

If planing, probably so. In a good carved jibe we never stop planing, so our
feet can afford to be aft even though we're not in the harness yet. I
usually waterstart with my back foot in its strap even if too underpowered
to plane to provide max board control, but there's no WEIGHT on that foot as
I exit the water. As for beach starts, I can't remember that last time I did
one (at most spots I sail, we can very seldom walk out to the wind line)
unless you count what I call jump starts: stand waist-to-chest-deep, get in
beach start position, sheet in at the same time I jump off the bottom, clear
the board, and come down on it on a plane. In this case foot position isn't
too critical, but in a normal beach start too much weight on the tail digs
the fin into the bottom. The smaller the board the bigger that problem.

Mike m/

"Tigger" <addisonchrisnospam@yahoo.co.uk > wrote
> Is it possible to
> go bff without taking a step back down the board first, i.e. can you
> jump on the board and DIRECTLY go for the backstrap, or do you have to
> step back first?





30 Jul 2003 22:11:55
Jerry McEwen
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

That's a clever reply, but you overlooked the question. There are
times when the front foot works, but there's not enough wind to get to
the back strap. Does that help you follow what I'm asking?

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:23:13 -0700, "Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com >
wrote:

>Sounds more like NFF than BFF or FFF.
>
>Mike m/
>
>"Jerry McEwen" <rec.dot@mail.not> wrote
>> Sometimes I like to sail with both feet out on the
>> rail, neither in a strap, but feet next to each other in the "sweet
>> spot".
>>
>> I cannot envision same using BFF.
>
>




30 Jul 2003 22:13:29
Jerry McEwen
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

That's stupid, Frank, we civilized people put our dog food on nice
china. :)

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:39:58 -0400, "Frank Weston"
<frank@weston-american.com > wrote:

>This whole discussion is sort of like what would happen if Mike said he
>likes to eat dog food from the can. Lots of us would be horrified, some
>would admit that they did it too, and a few might even try it. It would be
>an endless topic for debate and there would never be any agreement between
>the two sides.
>
>And, at the end of the day, it wouldn't make any difference. Unless, of
>course, eating dog food caused the development of special talents like the
>ability to scratch behind your ear with your foot or to lick your private
>parts, in which case a person might find it more efficient to go BFF.
>
>Frank Weston
>




30 Jul 2003 22:14:26
Jerry McEwen
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Nice comeback!

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:40:54 -0700, "Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com >
wrote:

> The demand and price of dog food would skyrocket.
>
>Mike m/



30 Jul 2003 23:22:59
Mike F
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

I don't see a question.

Mike m/

"Jerry McEwen" <rec.dot@mail.not > wrote in message
news:c52hivcvf47e4tu96nn247isqiqilurm9a@4ax.com...
> That's a clever reply, but you overlooked the question. There are
> times when the front foot works, but there's not enough wind to get to
> the back strap. Does that help you follow what I'm asking?
>
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:23:13 -0700, "Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Sounds more like NFF than BFF or FFF.
> >
> >Mike m/
> >
> >"Jerry McEwen" <rec.dot@mail.not> wrote
> >> Sometimes I like to sail with both feet out on the
> >> rail, neither in a strap, but feet next to each other in the "sweet
> >> spot".
> >>
> >> I cannot envision same using BFF.
> >
> >
>
>





31 Jul 2003 03:17:01
Tom Whicker
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

>

I'm just back from three weeks at the NC coast. Sailed eight different
boards
sized from 220 litres down to 70 litres in wind from gusty 25kts down to
lazy 8kt days. BFF always works great. Out of boredom one day I tried
to
find a single reason for FFF. It's just not there. In all cases for me
BFF is
quicker to plane and superior from a control standpoint.

On most boards I come up from a waterstart and go directly into the back
strap on the way up. As my butt clears the water the back foot is already
in there applying some toe pressure to level the board. No weight is put
on the foot; just a horizontal toe force to get the fin to provide lift and

point the board down wind.

With a 6.0 sail and Veloce 278 (100 litres) in 15kts wind, I waterstart
straight into the back strap and am up to full plane within three seconds.

On an 8kt day, I sail an 8.5 on a long board and waterstart straight
into the back strap.

Hit a lull? The front foot comes out and moves forward. Back foot
stays in the strap.

Tom Whicker
Chapel Hill, NC



31 Jul 2003 13:24:45
BarryWind
Re: cross training

The few 'back East' friends and students that I've skied with all seem to be
pretty good technical skiers and some windsurf [added to keep the thread
topic police at bay]. Your wide variety of snow conditions must mandate good
skiing ability. Out here, we [me included] tend to get jaded with soft and
dry snow. I haven't alpine skied since about '82. I can make it down the
'blue' runs on a snowboard, but really I'm content to just carve up anything
soft on tele gear. If you ever venture out to NM, let me know and we'll give
you the tour...

Re: BFF/FFF and snow sports...
I'll have to add - NFF - no feet first... ;^)
-B

"unixmidiplugin" <hoff@bnl.gov > wrote in message
news:12075c07.0307300941.6c59cb7@posting.google.com...
> "BarryWind" <barrywind@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<svQVa.114$jg7.88@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >...
> > Re: Safety stance...
> > I'm a part time tele instructor
>
> A kindred soul! I am an advanced alpine skier, but only an
> intermediate tele skier...snip...
> I'm also a beginner snowboarder. I can handle groomed slopes,
> but not moguls, parks, or pipes. Does that mean I'll start kiting
> soon? AFAIK, one *always* straps on a snowboard FFF.
>
> -- Larry (looking forward to my next backcountry tele trip in the
> White Mountains).
...snip...




31 Jul 2003 11:47:14
Frank Weston
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!


"Tom Whicker" <t.whicker@mindspring.com > wrote

> On most boards I come up from a waterstart and go directly into the back
> strap on the way up.
>
> With a 6.0 sail and Veloce 278 (100 litres) in 15kts wind, I waterstart
> straight into the back strap and am up to full plane within three seconds.
>
> On an 8kt day, I sail an 8.5 on a long board and waterstart straight
> into the back strap.
>

Sounds to me like you're waterstarting way too much.

Frank Weston




31 Jul 2003 11:49:42
Mike F
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Honest, folks, that warn't me.
It was just another open-minded sailor who has seen the LIGHT. ;-)

Mike m/
.
"Tom Whicker" <t.whicker@mindspring.com > wrote in message
news:3F28C26D.6D2B3283@mindspring.com...
> >
>
> I'm just back from three weeks at the NC coast. Sailed eight different
> boards
> sized from 220 litres down to 70 litres in wind from gusty 25kts down to
> lazy 8kt days. BFF always works great. Out of boredom one day I tried
> to
> find a single reason for FFF. It's just not there. In all cases for me
> BFF is
> quicker to plane and superior from a control standpoint.
>
> On most boards I come up from a waterstart and go directly into the back
> strap on the way up. As my butt clears the water the back foot is already
> in there applying some toe pressure to level the board. No weight is put
> on the foot; just a horizontal toe force to get the fin to provide lift
and
>
> point the board down wind.
>
> With a 6.0 sail and Veloce 278 (100 litres) in 15kts wind, I waterstart
> straight into the back strap and am up to full plane within three seconds.
>
> On an 8kt day, I sail an 8.5 on a long board and waterstart straight
> into the back strap.
>
> Hit a lull? The front foot comes out and moves forward. Back foot
> stays in the strap.
>
> Tom Whicker
> Chapel Hill, NC
>





31 Jul 2003 13:43:11
Scott G
Re: cross training

It never occurred to me before, but I agree that a telemark turn is
like a jibe entry!
Flexion, angulation, knee drive, knee bend, etc.
If you enter a turn tele, and come up and back down in a reverse tele
(still making the same turn) that is like a jibe with a foot change!
The only problem, is you can't pretend to oversheet with your hands -
to bring your inside hand to the back of the turn is to invite the
rear ski to skid out - gotta keep those hands forward.
Scott G



"BarryWind" <barrywind@earthlink.net > wrote in message news:<xM8Wa.514$jp.491@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> The few 'back East' friends and students that I've skied with all seem to be
> pretty good technical skiers and some windsurf [added to keep the thread
> topic police at bay]. Your wide variety of snow conditions must mandate good
> skiing ability. Out here, we [me included] tend to get jaded with soft and
> dry snow. I haven't alpine skied since about '82. I can make it down the
> 'blue' runs on a snowboard, but really I'm content to just carve up anything
> soft on tele gear. If you ever venture out to NM, let me know and we'll give
> you the tour...
>
> Re: BFF/FFF and snow sports...
> I'll have to add - NFF - no feet first... ;^)
> -B
>
> "unixmidiplugin" <hoff@bnl.gov> wrote in message
> news:12075c07.0307300941.6c59cb7@posting.google.com...
> > "BarryWind" <barrywind@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<svQVa.114$jg7.88@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> > > Re: Safety stance...
> > > I'm a part time tele instructor
> >
> > A kindred soul! I am an advanced alpine skier, but only an
> > intermediate tele skier...snip...
> > I'm also a beginner snowboarder. I can handle groomed slopes,
> > but not moguls, parks, or pipes. Does that mean I'll start kiting
> > soon? AFAIK, one *always* straps on a snowboard FFF.
> >
> > -- Larry (looking forward to my next backcountry tele trip in the
> > White Mountains).
> ...snip...


01 Aug 2003 02:07:29
Martin Allen
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Out today on 125 liter with 8.0m, and 95 liter with 5.4m tried BFF for the
first time in non overpowered conditions. Worked fine in moderateley powered
conditions and seemed like it could be an advantage in the unusually (for
us) gusty conditions we had today.

I'd say idealy you should learn to do both and choose the best method for
you/the prevailing conditions.

I think that is what you are saying isn't it Mike?

I haven't got much of a problem with the way you are saying it. Your initial
post to Hans seemed a bit disrespectfull but no where near as bad as some of
the posts you have been subjected to.

Martin

"Mike F" <isobars@urxSpamDam.com > wrote in message
news:ZpdWa.750$GN6.13@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
> Honest, folks, that warn't me.
> It was just another open-minded sailor who has seen the LIGHT. ;-)
>
> Mike m/
> .
> "Tom Whicker" <t.whicker@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3F28C26D.6D2B3283@mindspring.com...
> > >
> >
> > I'm just back from three weeks at the NC coast. Sailed eight different
> > boards
> > sized from 220 litres down to 70 litres in wind from gusty 25kts down to
> > lazy 8kt days. BFF always works great. Out of boredom one day I
tried
> > to
> > find a single reason for FFF. It's just not there. In all cases for
me
> > BFF is
> > quicker to plane and superior from a control standpoint.
> >
> > On most boards I come up from a waterstart and go directly into the back
> > strap on the way up. As my butt clears the water the back foot is
already
> > in there applying some toe pressure to level the board. No weight is
put
> > on the foot; just a horizontal toe force to get the fin to provide lift
> and
> >
> > point the board down wind.
> >
> > With a 6.0 sail and Veloce 278 (100 litres) in 15kts wind, I
waterstart
> > straight into the back strap and am up to full plane within three
seconds.
> >
> > On an 8kt day, I sail an 8.5 on a long board and waterstart straight
> > into the back strap.
> >
> > Hit a lull? The front foot comes out and moves forward. Back foot
> > stays in the strap.
> >
> > Tom Whicker
> > Chapel Hill, NC
> >
>
>
>




31 Jul 2003 18:40:01
Mike F
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

"Martin Allen" <mr.magoo@virgin.net > wrote in message
news:C2jWa.10066$Id1.722215@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> Out today on 125 liter with 8.0m, and 95 liter with 5.4m tried BFF for the
> first time in non overpowered conditions. Worked fine in moderateley
powered
> conditions and seemed like it could be an advantage in the unusually (for
> us) gusty conditions we had today.
>
> I'd say idealy you should learn to do both and choose the best method for
> you/the prevailing conditions.
>
> I think that is what you are saying isn't it Mike?
>
Absolutely, positively, and repeatedly.

> I haven't got much of a problem with the way you are saying it. Your
initial
> post to Hans seemed a bit disrespectfull but no where near as bad as some
of
> the posts you have been subjected to.

Absolutely, positively, and repeatedly. ;-)

Mike m/





01 Aug 2003 10:06:38
Frank Weston
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Tom,

Let's kill this thread.

Go here: http://www.insults.net/html/odd/random.html

select the criteria that best fit your case and press the button.

Frank Weston






01 Aug 2003 13:27:13
Tom Whicker
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Frank Weston wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Let's kill this thread.
>
> Go here: http://www.insults.net/html/odd/random.html
>
> select the criteria that best fit your case and press the button.
>
> Frank Weston

Frank,

First the stuff about the dog food. Now the insults. A typical
result of going FFF for so many years!



02 Aug 2003 00:37:59
Chris Kuryllo
Re: FFF....BFF..It depends...!

Ooh, that's where you learnt your newsgroup communication skills.

"Frank Weston" <frank@weston-american.com > wrote in message
news:JvmdnfjiC6AN6beiU-KYgw@comcast.com...
> Tom,
>
> Let's kill this thread.
>
> Go here: http://www.insults.net/html/odd/random.html
>
> select the criteria that best fit your case and press the button.
>
> Frank Weston
>
>
>
>




02 Aug 2003 02:01:37
Paul M
Re: cross training

Hey - Barry - I tried using a 5 and 7M RAM with tele gear last winter and
found that I needed more support in the feet - very strong sideway forces
when kiteskiing. Regular downhill boots worked best for me. YMMV

-P
"BarryWind" <barrywind@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:kLtWa.1358$jp.21@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> However, I'm really going to try harder this winter and make a date with a
> ram kite and tele gear. I've got a 2.2 Windwing but that may be too small,
> unless it's a stinkin' blizzard. Might have to try this with a 5-6 meter
> kite. Oh, and some snow this winter sure would be nice too...
>
> -Barry
>
>




05 Aug 2003 13:42:58
BarryWind
Re: cross training

Paul,

You don't think plastic BD T1 boots would offer enough support? -B

"Paul M" <paul@thispartisboguspmcomputer.com > wrote in message
news:283f9c6d37671bf69aadaf01cbf12eaf@TeraNews...
> Hey - Barry - I tried using a 5 and 7M RAM with tele gear last winter and
> found that I needed more support in the feet - very strong sideway forces
> when kiteskiing. Regular downhill boots worked best for me. YMMV
>
> -P




05 Aug 2003 15:46:01
Paul M
Re: cross training

Prolly a whole lot more than my Italian leather Scarpas!
- Paul

"BarryWind" <barrywind@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:CvOXa.7039$jg7.5655@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Paul,
>
> You don't think plastic BD T1 boots would offer enough support? -B
>




07 Aug 2003 09:19:39
unixmidiplugin
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

> In article <3F248C32.DCD92A2C@mindspring.com>, Roger Jackson
> <sailquik@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > I find this thread to be pretty funny as no one (at least in the
> > multitude of posts
> > I looked at) including Mike or Hans or anyone else really ever specified
> > when and
> > where each technique is appropriate. Imagine that?


OK, since this thread refuses to die, let's see if we can get some
objective information to try to shed some light, rather than heat on the
issue.

It seems to me that Roger hit the nail on the head a month ago. Perhaps
there are just certain situations which lead sailors to choose one technique
over the other. I propose a little survey to see if there are any obvious
correlations. I know enough about statistics to realize the pitfalls and
potential biases of this approach. I realize that the correctness of the
answers relies too much on the honesty of the responders, and I realize that
the responders will not represent a cross section of rec.ws participants,
let alone a cross section of the world-wide windsurfing population.

Nevertheless, *if* the participation is broad, and *if* the respondants
are honest, and dont try to steer the results, and *if* the survey is well
crafted, there is a *chance* that some correlation will be patently obvious, and
we'll all feel foolish that we spent so much energy discussing the topic. E.g.
suppose that all FFF proponents are lesson veterans, who have simply been
brainwashed, or all BFFers always wear booties when they sail.

So please, if you are truly interested in shedding light on the issue,
I ask that you honestly answer this survey. If you can answer better
anonymously, feel free to e-mail me, and I'll summarize the results and
protect your privacy. If you would rather not trust me, perhaps there is
someone else in the group who you do trust to protect your privacy and to
accurately represent your answers (Roger?). Please one entry per person.
This isn't a contest to see who "wins". It is to check for correlations.


1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). [Y/N]

2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
(CH). [SH/WH/CH]

3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. [Y/N]

4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. [Y/N]

5) I normally sail overpowered. [Y/N]

6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
(I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [Y/N]

7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
windsurfing session). [Y/N]

8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or greater
success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical" windsurfing
session). [Y/N]

9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means 75%
or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
windsurfing session). [Y/N]

10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
in a "typical" windsurfing session). [Y/N]

11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or similar
with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a "typical"
windsurfing session. [Y/N]

12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
"typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy Skipper,
Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
Cape Cod race series). [Y/N]

15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
"S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y/N]

16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the amateur
or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [Y/N]

17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [BFF/FFF/NFF]

18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [Y/N]

-- Larry


07 Aug 2003 11:42:18
Craig (gsogh) Goudie
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)



unixmidiplugin wrote:

> [snip]
>
> 1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). [Y]
>
> 2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
> (CH). [WH]
>
> 3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. [Y]
>
> 4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. [N]
>
> 5) I normally sail overpowered. [N]
>
> 6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
> such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
> (I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [N]
>
> 7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
> on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
> windsurfing session). [Y]
>
> 8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or greater
> success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical" windsurfing
> session). [Y]
>
> 9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means 75%
> or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
> windsurfing session). [Y]
>
> 10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
> the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
> in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
> in a "typical" windsurfing session). [Y]
>
> 11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or similar
> with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a "typical"
> windsurfing session. [N]
>
> 12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
> similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
> "typical" windsurfing session. [N]
>
> 13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy Skipper,
> Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
> tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. [N]
>
> 14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
> prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
> Cape Cod race series). [N]
>
> 15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
> bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
> "S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y]
>
> 16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the amateur
> or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [N]
>
> 17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
> front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
> technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [FFF]
>
> 18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [N]
>
> -- Larry

--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins




07 Aug 2003 13:49:19
Ellen
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

There are a few questions there which aren't going to cover the kind of
info you are after, or at least they may provide misleading answers. For
example, I have taken lessons but not one single lesson ever addressed
getting me into the footstraps. I got into them on my own. Now when it
comes to jibing lessons, I think I've hit just about all those people!
Literally or figuratively.
Ellen


unixmidiplugin wrote:

>>In article <3F248C32.DCD92A2C@mindspring.com>, Roger Jackson
>><sailquik@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>I find this thread to be pretty funny as no one (at least in the
>>>multitude of posts
>>>I looked at) including Mike or Hans or anyone else really ever specified
>>>when and
>>>where each technique is appropriate. Imagine that?
>>>
>>>
>
>
> OK, since this thread refuses to die, let's see if we can get some
>objective information to try to shed some light, rather than heat on the
>issue.
>
> It seems to me that Roger hit the nail on the head a month ago. Perhaps
>there are just certain situations which lead sailors to choose one technique
>over the other. I propose a little survey to see if there are any obvious
>correlations. I know enough about statistics to realize the pitfalls and
>potential biases of this approach. I realize that the correctness of the
>answers relies too much on the honesty of the responders, and I realize that
>the responders will not represent a cross section of rec.ws participants,
>let alone a cross section of the world-wide windsurfing population.
>
> Nevertheless, *if* the participation is broad, and *if* the respondants
>are honest, and dont try to steer the results, and *if* the survey is well
>crafted, there is a *chance* that some correlation will be patently obvious, and
>we'll all feel foolish that we spent so much energy discussing the topic. E.g.
>suppose that all FFF proponents are lesson veterans, who have simply been
>brainwashed, or all BFFers always wear booties when they sail.
>
> So please, if you are truly interested in shedding light on the issue,
>I ask that you honestly answer this survey. If you can answer better
>anonymously, feel free to e-mail me, and I'll summarize the results and
>protect your privacy. If you would rather not trust me, perhaps there is
>someone else in the group who you do trust to protect your privacy and to
>accurately represent your answers (Roger?). Please one entry per person.
>This isn't a contest to see who "wins". It is to check for correlations.
>
>
>1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). [Y/N]
>
>2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
>(CH). [SH/WH/CH]
>
>3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. [Y/N]
>
>4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. [Y/N]
>
>5) I normally sail overpowered. [Y/N]
>
>6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
>such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
>(I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [Y/N]
>
>7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
>on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
>windsurfing session). [Y/N]
>
>8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or greater
>success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical" windsurfing
>session). [Y/N]
>
>9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means 75%
>or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
>windsurfing session). [Y/N]
>
>10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
>the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
>in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
>in a "typical" windsurfing session). [Y/N]
>
>11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or similar
>with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a "typical"
>windsurfing session. [Y/N]
>
>12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
>similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
>"typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]
>
>13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy Skipper,
>Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
>tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]
>
>14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
>prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
>Cape Cod race series). [Y/N]
>
>15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
>bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
>"S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y/N]
>
>16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the amateur
>or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [Y/N]
>
>17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
>front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
>technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [BFF/FFF/NFF]
>
>18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [Y/N]
>
>-- Larry
>
>



07 Aug 2003 19:49:06
Jerry McEwen
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

On 7 Aug 2003 09:19:39 -0700, hoff@bnl.gov (unixmidiplugin) wrote:

>1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). [Y/N]

yes

>2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
>(CH). [SH/WH/CH]

sh

>3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. [Y/N]

no

>4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. [Y/N]

no

>5) I normally sail overpowered. [Y/N]

yes

>6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
>such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
>(I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [Y/N]

no

>7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
>on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
>windsurfing session). [Y/N]

yes

>8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or greater
>success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical" windsurfing
>session). [Y/N]

yes

>9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means 75%
>or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
>windsurfing session). [Y/N]

yes

>10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
>the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
>in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
>in a "typical" windsurfing session). [Y/N]

no

>11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or similar
>with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a "typical"
>windsurfing session. [Y/N]

no

>12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
>similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
>"typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

no
>13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy Skipper,
>Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
>tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

no

>14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
>prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
>Cape Cod race series). [Y/N]

no
>15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
>bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
>"S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y/N]

no

>16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the amateur
>or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [Y/N]

no

>17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
>front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
>technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [BFF/FFF/NFF]
FFF

>18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [Y/N]

not even (no)



07 Aug 2003 18:18:29
Paul Braunbehrens
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

If you want to do a survey, why not incorporate some suggestions first,
and then do it somewhere where the results are easily viewed, with a
graph. You could easily set this up on yahoo or some other place. The
way it is now is just too much of a pain in the neck to deal with it,
plus I really don't see the point.

Just my opinion of course.

In article <e1a0cb65.0308071443.47fed2a2@posting.google.com >, Brett
<bjlinde@msn.com > wrote:

> Snip
> >
> > 1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). N
> >
> > 2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
> > (CH). SH
> >
> > 3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. N
> >
> > 4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. Y
> >
> > 5) I normally sail overpowered. N
> >
> > 6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
> > such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
> > (I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). N
> >
> > 7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
> > on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
> > windsurfing session). N
> >
> > 8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or
> > greater
> > success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical"
> > windsurfing
> > session). N
> >
> > 9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means
> > 75%
> > or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
> > windsurfing session). Y
> >
> > 10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
> > the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
> > in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
> > in a "typical" windsurfing session). N
> >
> > 11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or
> > similar
> > with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
> > "typical"
> > windsurfing session. N
> >
> > 12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
> > similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks
> > in a
> > "typical" windsurfing session. N
> >
> > 13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy
> > Skipper,
> > Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6
> > such
> > tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. N
> >
> > 14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
> > prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
> > Cape Cod race series). N
> >
> > 15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
> > bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
> > "S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). N
> >
> > 16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the
> > amateur
> > or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). N
> >
> > 17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
> > front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
> > technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). FFF
> >
> > 18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. N
> >
> > -- Larry


08 Aug 2003 13:18:36
Marc A. Lefebvre US-775
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

> 1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). [Y/N]

N

>
> 2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
> (CH). [SH/WH/CH]

WH


> 3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. [Y/N]

Y


> 4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. [Y/N]

N


> 5) I normally sail overpowered. [Y/N]

Y


> 6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
> such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
> (I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [Y/N]

N


> 7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
> on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
> windsurfing session). [Y/N]

Y


> 8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or greater
> success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical" windsurfing
> session). [Y/N]

Y


> 9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means 75%
> or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
> windsurfing session). [Y/N]

Y

> 10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
> the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
> in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
> in a "typical" windsurfing session). [Y/N]

Y

> 11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or similar
> with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a "typical"
> windsurfing session. [Y/N]

Y


> 12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
> similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
> "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

Y


> 13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy Skipper,
> Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
> tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

N

> 14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
> prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
> Cape Cod race series). [Y/N]

Y

> 15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
> bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
> "S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y/N]

Y


> 16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the amateur
> or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [Y/N]

N


> 17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
> front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
> technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [BFF/FFF/NFF]

BFF


> 18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [Y/N]

N, but did finish 5th place in the Maui Slalom Series last saturday in
the Formula Division. wooohooo to that!! It looks alot like super
cross when the winds are up. hehehehehe.


--
Marc A. Lefebvre (US-775)
Sponsors: AHD/Gaastra/Fiberspar/Synergy Sports
Email: lefebvre@iWaveSolutions.com
WWW: http://www.ultranet.com/~lefebvre/
Motto: "Windsurfing is life, the rest is just details!"


08 Aug 2003 21:51:45
Roxxy
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

Paul Braunbehrens <bakalite@removethisbakalite.com > wrote in message news:<070820031818294929%bakalite@removethisbakalite.com>...
> If you want to do a survey, why not incorporate some suggestions first,
> and then do it somewhere where the results are easily viewed, with a
> graph. You could easily set this up on yahoo or some other place. The
> way it is now is just too much of a pain in the neck to deal with it,
> plus I really don't see the point.
>
> Just my opinion of course.
>
> In article <e1a0cb65.0308071443.47fed2a2@posting.google.com>, Brett
> <bjlinde@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Snip
> > >
> > > 1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). N
> > >
> > > 2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
> > > (CH). SH
> > >
> > > 3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. N
> > >
> > > 4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. Y
> > >
> > > 5) I normally sail overpowered. N
> > >
> > > 6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
> > > such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
> > > (I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). N
> > >
> > > 7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
> > > on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
> > > windsurfing session). N
> > >
> > > 8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or
> > > greater
> > > success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical"
> > > windsurfing
> > > session). N
> > >
> > > 9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means
> > > 75%
> > > or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
> > > windsurfing session). Y
> > >
> > > 10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
> > > the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
> > > in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
> > > in a "typical" windsurfing session). N
> > >
> > > 11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or
> > > similar
> > > with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
> > > "typical"
> > > windsurfing session. N
> > >
> > > 12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
> > > similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks
> > > in a
> > > "typical" windsurfing session. N
> > >
> > > 13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy
> > > Skipper,
> > > Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6
> > > such
> > > tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. N
> > >
> > > 14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
> > > prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
> > > Cape Cod race series). N
> > >
> > > 15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
> > > bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
> > > "S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). N
> > >
> > > 16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the
> > > amateur
> > > or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). N
> > >
> > > 17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
> > > front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
> > > technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). FFF
> > >
> > > 18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. N
> > >
> > > -- Larry

Snip
> >
> > 1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). N
> >
> > 2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
> > (CH). SH
> >
> > 3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. N
> >
> > 4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. Y
> >
> > 5) I normally sail overpowered. N
> >
> > 6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
> > such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
> > (I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). N
> >
> > 7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
> > on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
> > windsurfing session). N
> >
> > 8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or
> > greater
> > success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical"
> > windsurfing
> > session). N
> >
> > 9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means
> > 75%
> > or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
> > windsurfing session). Y
> >
> > 10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
> > the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
> > in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
> > in a "typical" windsurfing session). N
> >
> > 11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or
> > similar
> > with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
> > "typical"
> > windsurfing session. N
> >
> > 12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
> > similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks
> > in a
> > "typical" windsurfing session. N
> >
> > 13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy
> > Skipper,
> > Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6
> > such
> > tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. N
> >
> > 14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
> > prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
> > Cape Cod race series). N
> >
> > 15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
> > bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
> > "S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). N
> >
> > 16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the
> > amateur
> > or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). N
> >
> > 17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
> > front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
> > technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). FFF
> >
> > 18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. N
> >
> > -- Larry
Post a follow-up to this message

My answers are:
1. yes booties
2. WH
3.no single strap, use two
4.board is not that wide
5.yes
6.yes
7.no
8.no
9 yes
10 no
11 no
12 no
13 No
14 no
15 no
16no
17 Front foot first
18 no
1


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09 Aug 2003 06:38:20
Marc Rosen
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)


N
SH
N
Y
Y
Y
Y
N
Y
N
N
N
N
N
N
N
FFF
N

Marc




09 Aug 2003 18:45:37
Cliff Frost
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

>> > 1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). [Y/N]

Y

>> > 2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
>> > (CH). [SH/WH/CH]

SH

>> > 3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. [Y/N]

N

>> > 4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. [Y/N]

N and Y (I sail slalom and formula normally)

>> > 5) I normally sail overpowered. [Y/N]

Y

>> > 6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
>> > such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
>> > (I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [Y/N]

Y

>> > 7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
>> > on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
>> > windsurfing session). [Y/N]

Y

>> > 8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or greater
>> > success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical" windsurfing
>> > session). [Y/N]

N

>> > 9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means 75%
>> > or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
>> > windsurfing session). [Y/N]

N

>> > 10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
>> > the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
>> > in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
>> > in a "typical" windsurfing session). [Y/N]

Y

>> > 11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or similar
>> > with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a "typical"
>> > windsurfing session. [Y/N]

N

>> > 12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
>> > similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
>> > "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

N

>> > 13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy Skipper,
>> > Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
>> > tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

N

>> > 14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
>> > prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
>> > Cape Cod race series). [Y/N]

Y (What is meant by credible? I generally come in last, but I have finished
and even managed to get in sooner than some people.)

>> > 15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
>> > bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
>> > "S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y/N]

N

>> > 16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the amateur
>> > or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [Y/N]

N

>> > 17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
>> > front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
>> > technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [BFF/FFF/NFF]

FFF

>> > 18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [Y/N]

N


09 Aug 2003 16:01:00
florian
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

okay, disregard the qustions, just mind the answers:

1) When I sail, I normally think about booties ("normally" means 75% or
more). [Y/N]

[Y]

2) I normally use a diaper (D), waist corset (C), or no protection at
all
(NPAA). [D/WC/NPAA]

[C]

3) The board I normally sail wears straps. [Y/N]

[Y]

4) The board I normally sail is really really fat. [Y/N]

[N]

5) I normally sail drunk. [Y/N]

[N]

6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned
therapist,
such Dr. Ruth Westheimer?
(I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [Y/N]

[N]

7) I can reliably tread water (reliably means 75% or greater success
rate
on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a
"typical"
windsurfing session). [Y/N]

[Y]

8) I can reliably perform "Strangers in the Night" solo without piano
accompaniment (reliably means 75% or greater success rate , with a
minumum of 12 successful attempts in a "typical" windsurfing session). [
Y/N]

[Y]

9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably
means 75%
or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a
"typical"
windsurfing session). [Y/N]

[N] if nose sink tacks and Helis don't count, otherwise [Y]

10) I can reliably chop garlic on a shortboard on both tacks (with both
feet in the straps, without burning the pudding or otherwise messing up
the main courses, with a minimum of 6 successful chops on each tack in a
"typical" windsurfing session). [Y/N]

[Y]

11) I add flair to my cooking in the form of duck, monkey, piroette (?)
or similar
with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such receipes in a
"typical"
windsurfing session. [Y/N]

[Y]

12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss
or
similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
tricks in a
"typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]

[Y] since I don't know how to tack short boards any other way.

13) I add flair to my chop suey in the form of Vulcano (hot sauce),
fruit loops, Willy Skipper (?), Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success
rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such culinary stunts in a "typical"
windsurfing session. [Y/N]

[N]ope

14) I have a credible record of participation in a cooking contest at
the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
Cape Cod race series). [Y/N]

[N]

15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to
perform
bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
"S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y/N]

[Y]

16) I have a credible finish in an erotic movie production at the
amateur
or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [Y/N]

[N]

17) When I dress in drag, I normally enter the straps in the order back-
foot then
front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use
either
technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [BFF/FFF/NFF]

[FFF]

18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [Y/N]

hell, [N]!


florian


09 Aug 2003 13:29:21
unixmidiplugin
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

> lefebvre@iwavesolutions.com (Marc A. Lefebvre US-775) wrote in message news:<5ef1a86c.0308081218.6dac3127@posting.google.com>...
> > N, but did finish 5th place in the Maui Slalom Series last saturday in
> > the Formula Division. wooohooo to that!! It looks alot like super
> > cross when the winds are up. hehehehehe.


Very impressive, Marc! That's something to be proud of. The move
to Maui is obviously treating you well. Woo hoo!

-- Larry


11 Aug 2003 06:31:11
unixmidiplugin
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey) preliminary RESULTS

OK, I have the data to present. But first some comments (groan)...

There were a total of 16 respondents, both privately (e-mail), and publicly
(rec.ws). I just tallied the results. I made no attempt to validate any of the
answers. I suspect that the respondents were fairly honest, because many of the
answers contained comments such as "if I am perfectly honest with myself, the
answer is No, but I wish the answer was Yes". In only one case a respondent
asked to have an answer changed. He realized that he misunderstood the question,
and that he felt strongly that his answer should be corrected. There may have
been other cases where respondents misunderstood questions, but let their
answers stand. Therefore, one should not put too much emphasis on single answers
or weak correlations. There was only one BFF respondent. That is enough to make
this survey useless for its intended purpose (trying to correlate "other"
sailing factors with FFF/BFF preference). Two vocal BFF proponents made these
comments:

"The point of the survey?"

and

"I really don't see the point."

Which seem to support the idea that something about the content of or manner of
presentation of the survey discouraged participation. Maybe someone could
analyze the situation to learn something useful. As for myself, I'm just calling
the exercise a failure.

I will still present the data for a couple reasons. First because I promised
to, and second, because there are still some interesting correlations, some of
which surprised me.

For instance, bootie usage was just about 50%, but does not correlate with
any other factor. This either means that bootie usage is a completely random
personal choice, or that it correlates with a factor not included in the survey.
I suspect the latter. In fact, I suspect that it correlates with sailing venue.
I recognized two participants from Maui who both answered the question the same,
and three participants from my neck of the woods (myself included) who also all
answered the question the same.

There seems to be a correlation between people who have a repertoire of jibes
and tacks and use of a waist or chest harness. This is probably not surprising,
since it agrees with conventional wisdom. I just point it out to remind everyone
about dangers of drawing conclusions from statistics. Everyone probably
intuitively understands that does not mean that using a waist harness will
suddenly allow you to do fancy tacks and jibes, but one should also not assume
that a waist or chest harness if required for fancy tacks and jibes. This survey
merely points out that the type of person who does fancy tacks and jibes is also
the type of person who uses a chest or waist harness. There may be a third
factor that is the root cause for both (like peer pressure).

Similarly, there is a correlation between using wide (race style?) boards and
not using a waist or chest harness. This agrees with conventional wisdom that
seat harnesses are required for handling bigger race style boards and sails. One
oddity of this survey is that the respondents with the strongest race
credentials claim to usually sail with narrow boards and waist harnesses. I
choose to believe that this just shows a limitation of the survey, and that
these sailors are probably multi-faceted, and probably do use wide boards and
seat harnesses while racing, and use narrower boards and waist harnesses while
free riding.

One other surprising result is that exposure to instruction is not an
indicator of ability. There seems to be no correlation between the two. With a
more narrow analysis, one can even find a negative correlation. I.e. the
respondent with the highest skill credentials answered the lesson question "No",
and one of the respondent with the most modest skill credentials answered "Yes".
I choose to believe that Ellen Faller's criticism of the lesson question is
correct. That is, the question was not phrased in a way that could link lessons
to a choice of BFF or FFF. I also think that just asking the question about
lessons, without additional information such as amount of time to practice after
the lessons, makes the result of this question easily misleading.

I have the results in an Excel spreadsheet. In this message, they are simple
ASCII. If you want the raw spreadsheet, e-mail me, and I'll send it. Have fun, I
have a plane to catch.

-- Larry


booties harn r strap wide pow lessons wstart jibe tack hop
N SH N N Y N Y Y Y N
N SH Y N N N Y Y N Y
Y SH N Y N Y N N N N
Y WH Y N N N Y Y Y Y
Y WH N N N Y Y Y Y N
N CH Y N N Y Y Y Y Y
Y WH Y N N Y Y Y Y Y

Y WH Y N N N Y Y Y Y
N SH N Y N N N N Y N
Y SH N N Y N Y Y Y N
Y WH Y N N N Y Y Y Y
N WH Y N ? N Y Y Y Y
N WH Y N Y N Y Y Y Y
Y WH N N Y Y N N Y N
N SH N Y Y Y Y N Y N
Y SH N N/Y Y Y Y N N Y



jibe+ tack+ hop+ race wave free order super
N N N N N N FFF N
N N N N N N BFF N
N N N N N N FFF N
Y Y Y Y Y Y FFF N
Y Y N N N Y FFF N
Y Y Y N Y N FFF N
Y Y Y N N Y FFF N

N N N N Y N FFF N
N N N N N N FFF N
N N N N N N FFF N
Y Y N N N N FFF N
Y Y N N Y N FFF N
Y Y N Y Y N FFF N
N N N N N N FFF N
N N N N N N FFF N
N N N Y N N


11 Aug 2003 10:48:24
Frank Weston
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey) preliminary RESULTS


"unixmidiplugin" <hoff@bnl.gov > wrote

> One other surprising result is that exposure to instruction is not an
> indicator of ability. There seems to be no correlation between the two.
With a
> more narrow analysis, one can even find a negative correlation.

This result is cruel evidence of an obvious, but much ignored fact of life.
Some people are just more talented, athletic, determined, intelligent and
driven than others, and they will succeed with or without formal training.
Others with less talent, athletic ability, etc. may get all the training
they want, have all the certificates and degrees that can be acquired, and
still be only marginally competent (or even incompetent). And, I'm not just
talking about windsurfing. If you're honest with yourself, you won't need
to look too far to find examples that demonstrate the proof of this fact.

Frank Weston




11 Aug 2003 15:53:31
Bob Jacobson
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey) preliminary RESULTS

Could also be that people who are willing to take instruction are more
modest about their abilities.

"Frank Weston" <frank@weston-american.com > wrote in message
news:vZ6cne6jaIpYMaqiXTWJiw@comcast.com...
>
> "unixmidiplugin" <hoff@bnl.gov> wrote
>
> > One other surprising result is that exposure to instruction is not an
> > indicator of ability. There seems to be no correlation between the two.
> With a
> > more narrow analysis, one can even find a negative correlation.
>
> This result is cruel evidence of an obvious, but much ignored fact of
life.
> Some people are just more talented, athletic, determined, intelligent and
> driven than others, and they will succeed with or without formal training.
> Others with less talent, athletic ability, etc. may get all the training
> they want, have all the certificates and degrees that can be acquired, and
> still be only marginally competent (or even incompetent). And, I'm not
just
> talking about windsurfing. If you're honest with yourself, you won't need
> to look too far to find examples that demonstrate the proof of this fact.
>
> Frank Weston
>
>




11 Aug 2003 11:08:54
Marc A. Lefebvre US-775
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey) preliminary RESULTS

> Similarly, there is a correlation between using wide (race style?) boards and
> not using a waist or chest harness. This agrees with conventional wisdom that
> seat harnesses are required for handling bigger race style boards and sails. One
> oddity of this survey is that the respondents with the strongest race
> credentials claim to usually sail with narrow boards and waist harnesses. I
> choose to believe that this just shows a limitation of the survey, and that
> these sailors are probably multi-faceted, and probably do use wide boards and
> seat harnesses while racing, and use narrower boards and waist harnesses while
> free riding.

This is correct! Its called using the right tool for the job. For
course racing I wip out the 95cm wide board, seat harness, and 9.8,
10.6, and 11.4m sails. For slalom racing, I wip out the 58cm slalom
board, 7.2m 6.6m, 5.8m sails. Its a toss up between seat harness and
waist harness here as it depends on wind and water conditions. For
Freestyle, time for a nice 62cm freestyle board, and a 6.2m or 5.4m
freestyle sail and the waist harness. Then when the waves show up,
switch to 52cm wave board, waist harness, and a 5.4m, 4.7m, or 4.2m
sail.

--
Marc A. Lefebvre (US-775)
Sponsors: AHD/Gaastra/Fiberspar/Synergy Sports
Email: lefebvre@iWaveSolutions.com
WWW: http://www.iwavesolutions.com/lefebvre/
Motto: "Windsurfing is life, the rest is just details!"


11 Aug 2003 15:26:40
florian
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey) preliminary RESULTS

In <3F37EBCB.36805EA6@mindspring.com > Tom Whicker wrote:

> I feel compelled to comment that unixmidiplugin sent me an unsolicited
> email last week wherein he listed a full page of his "advanced"
> windsurfing skills. He closed the email by telling me that I should
> seek professional instruction if I wanted to reach the "advanced"
> level and then he added that I should not continue to discuss the Bff
> method on rec.windsurfing.
>
> Tom Whicker
> Chapel Hill, NC
>

Wow, you seem to feel pretty strongly about this. I, too received
"unsolicited"
mail from Larry and sometimes from other recdotters in the past. I think
his motive may have been to try to avoid boring everyone else here with
this thread while continuing his WFF research.

florian


11 Aug 2003 12:33:50
Mike F
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey) preliminary RESULTS

Seem to be problems owned by the FFF camp:
"Our way or the highway" and
"BFFers are all stuck at Intermediate".

What's WITH these people? Why do they care how someone else gets in their
freakin' straps? I'd be curious to see how some of these purists would do in
some of the logo-high swell and liquid smoke some BFF sailors get off on.

Not to mention the content nannies who think they have a right to tell
others not only what WSing topics they can address online, but HOW TO SAIL.

I've successfully resisted this comment for some time now, but they've asked
for it: I'd sure like to see the correlation between these unabashed control
freaks and their political bent.

Mike m/

"Tom Whicker" <t.whicker@mindspring.com > wrote
> unixmidiplugin sent me an unsolicited email last
> week wherein he listed a full page of his "advanced" windsurfing skills.
He closed
> the email by telling me that I should seek professional instruction if I
wanted to
> reach the "advanced" level and then he added that I should not continue to
> discuss the Bff method on rec.windsurfing.





11 Aug 2003 23:30:13
Chris Kuryllo
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey) preliminary RESULTS

Tom,

I think you should be proud of your skills and the way you've shared your
experience with others.

Chris

"Tom Whicker" <t.whicker@mindspring.com > wrote in message
news:3F37EBCB.36805EA6@mindspring.com...
> unixmidiplugin wrote:
>
> > Two vocal BFF proponents made these
> > comments:
> >
> > "The point of the survey?"
> >
> > and
> >
> > "I really don't see the point."
> >
> > Which seem to support the idea that something about the content of or
manner of
> > presentation of the survey discouraged participation. Maybe someone
could
> > analyze the situation to learn something useful. As for myself, I'm just
calling
> > the exercise a failure.
>
> I feel compelled to comment that unixmidiplugin sent me an unsolicited
email last
> week wherein he listed a full page of his "advanced" windsurfing skills.
He closed
> the email by telling me that I should seek professional instruction if I
wanted to
> reach the "advanced" level and then he added that I should not continue to
> discuss the Bff method on rec.windsurfing.
>
> Tom Whicker
> Chapel Hill, NC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > I will still present the data for a couple reasons. First because I
promised
> > to, and second, because there are still some interesting correlations,
some of
> > which surprised me.
> >
> > For instance, bootie usage was just about 50%, but does not
correlate with
> > any other factor. This either means that bootie usage is a completely
random
> > personal choice, or that it correlates with a factor not included in the
survey.
> > I suspect the latter. In fact, I suspect that it correlates with sailing
venue.
> > I recognized two participants from Maui who both answered the question
the same,
> > and three participants from my neck of the woods (myself included) who
also all
> > answered the question the same.
> >
> > There seems to be a correlation between people who have a repertoire
of jibes
> > and tacks and use of a waist or chest harness. This is probably not
surprising,
> > since it agrees with conventional wisdom. I just point it out to remind
everyone
> > about dangers of drawing conclusions from statistics. Everyone probably
> > intuitively understands that does not mean that using a waist harness
will
> > suddenly allow you to do fancy tacks and jibes, but one should also not
assume
> > that a waist or chest harness if required for fancy tacks and jibes.
This survey
> > merely points out that the type of person who does fancy tacks and jibes
is also
> > the type of person who uses a chest or waist harness. There may be a
third
> > factor that is the root cause for both (like peer pressure).
> >
> > Similarly, there is a correlation between using wide (race style?)
boards and
> > not using a waist or chest harness. This agrees with conventional wisdom
that
> > seat harnesses are required for handling bigger race style boards and
sails. One
> > oddity of this survey is that the respondents with the strongest race
> > credentials claim to usually sail with narrow boards and waist
harnesses. I
> > choose to believe that this just shows a limitation of the survey, and
that
> > these sailors are probably multi-faceted, and probably do use wide
boards and
> > seat harnesses while racing, and use narrower boards and waist harnesses
while
> > free riding.
> >
> > One other surprising result is that exposure to instruction is not an
> > indicator of ability. There seems to be no correlation between the two.
With a
> > more narrow analysis, one can even find a negative correlation. I.e. the
> > respondent with the highest skill credentials answered the lesson
question "No",
> > and one of the respondent with the most modest skill credentials
answered "Yes".
> > I choose to believe that Ellen Faller's criticism of the lesson question
is
> > correct. That is, the question was not phrased in a way that could link
lessons
> > to a choice of BFF or FFF. I also think that just asking the question
about
> > lessons, without additional information such as amount of time to
practice after
> > the lessons, makes the result of this question easily misleading.
> >
> > I have the results in an Excel spreadsheet. In this message, they are
simple
> > ASCII. If you want the raw spreadsheet, e-mail me, and I'll send it.
Have fun, I
> > have a plane to catch.
> >
> > -- Larry
> >
> > booties harn r strap wide pow lessons wstart jibe tack
hop
> > N SH N N Y N Y Y Y
N
> > N SH Y N N N Y Y N
Y
> > Y SH N Y N Y N N N
N
> > Y WH Y N N N Y Y Y
Y
> > Y WH N N N Y Y Y Y
N
> > N CH Y N N Y Y Y Y
Y
> > Y WH Y N N Y Y Y Y
Y
> >
> > Y WH Y N N N Y Y Y
Y
> > N SH N Y N N N N Y
N
> > Y SH N N Y N Y Y Y
N
> > Y WH Y N N N Y Y Y
Y
> > N WH Y N ? N Y Y Y
Y
> > N WH Y N Y N Y Y Y
Y
> > Y WH N N Y Y N N Y
N
> > N SH N Y Y Y Y N Y
N
> > Y SH N N/Y Y Y Y N N
Y
> >
> > jibe+ tack+ hop+ race wave free order super
> > N N N N N N FFF N
> > N N N N N N BFF N
> > N N N N N N FFF N
> > Y Y Y Y Y Y FFF N
> > Y Y N N N Y FFF N
> > Y Y Y N Y N FFF N
> > Y Y Y N N Y FFF N
> >
> > N N N N Y N FFF N
> > N N N N N N FFF N
> > N N N N N N FFF N
> > Y Y N N N N FFF N
> > Y Y N N Y N FFF N
> > Y Y N Y Y N FFF N
> > N N N N N N FFF N
> > N N N N N N FFF N
> > N N N Y N N
>




12 Aug 2003 13:25:06
Wolfgang Soergel
Re: FFF....BFF.. (a survey)

unixmidiplugin wrote:
>

OK, here we go. On some questions i have remarks in brackets but i think
the answers are still applicable to the survey.

> 1) When I sail, I normally wear booties ("normally" means 75% or more). [Y/N]
N

> 2) I normally use a seat harness (SH), waist harness (WH), or chest harness
> (CH). [SH/WH/CH]
WH

> 3) The board I normally sail has a single rear strap. [Y/N]
Y/N (recently mostly single strap but i had double straps and still have
on one board)

> 4) The board I normally sail is 80cm or wider at the widest point. [Y/N]
N

> 5) I normally sail overpowered. [Y/N]
N (but well powered if possible)

> 6) I have taken two or more lessons with a nationally reknowned instructor,
> such as Andy Brandt, Charles Dasher, Jason Voss, Petra Kanz, Tinho Dornelles
> (I hesitate to include Roger J. because of potential conflicts). [Y/N]
N

> 7) I can reliably waterstart (reliably means 75% or greater success rate
> on the first try, with a minum of 12 successful waterstarts in a "typical"
> windsurfing session). [Y/N]
Y

> 8) I can reliably perform a planing (carve) jibe (reliably means 75% or greater
> success rate , with a minumum of 12 successful jibes in a "typical" windsurfing
> session). [Y/N]
Y

> 9) I can reliably tack a shortboard in planing conditions (reliably means 75%
> or greater success rate, with a minimum of 12 succesful tacks in a "typical"
> windsurfing session). [Y/N]
Y

> 10) I can reliably chop hop a shortboard on both tacks (clear the fin from
> the water with both feet in the straps, without spinning out on landing
> in 75% of attempts, with a minimum of 6 successful chop hops on each tack
> in a "typical" windsurfing session). [Y/N]
Y

> 11) I add flair to my jibes in the form of a duck, monkey, piroette or similar
> with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a "typical"
> windsurfing session. [Y/N]
Y

> 12) I add flair to my tacks with in the form of a helicopter, duck, hoss or
> similar with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such tricks in a
> "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]
Y

> 13) I add flair to my chop hops in the form of a Vulcan, loop, Willy Skipper,
> Grubby or equivalent with a 50% success rate or higher, and a minimum of 6 such
> tricks in a "typical" windsurfing session. [Y/N]
N (less than 50% success rate with the moves mentioned but i certainly
try)

> 14) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing contest of speed around a
> prescribe course at the amateur or professional level (e.g. Gorge blowout,
> Cape Cod race series). [Y/N]
N

> 15) I enjoy front-side wave sailing using specialized techniques to perform
> bottom turns and cutbacks (e.g. cutting "gouges" in the waves, not just
> "S"-shaped turns in the general vicinity of the wave face). [Y/N]
Y

> 16) I have a credible finish in a windsurfing freestyle contest at the amateur
> or profesional level (e.g. King of the Cape, King of the Bay). [Y/N]
N

> 17) When I sail, I normally enter the straps in the order back-foot then
> front-foot (BFF), front-foot then back-foot (FFF), or I do not use either
> technique more than 75% of the time (NFF). [BFF/FFF/NFF]
FFF

> 18) I sailed in the recent SotoVento SuperCross Event. [Y/N]
N

Note: "typical session" in your definition would require something we
call "a really good day" here, with somewhat constant, planable winds
for 3 or four hours. I take it if i get it but typical may also be
shorter and gustier and thus reduce the program.
--
Wolfgang