02 Mar 2004 20:37:05
redpixie
Jump thoughts

I was watching the ISU videos tonight and had an interesting thought
about jumps. It looked like the kids in the videos were doing this:

1. Do whatever the appropriate entry is to get on the back edge.
2. Begin with the arms parallel to the direction of travel: left arm
in front, right in back.
3. During the set up phase of the jump,
- Keep the head and skating leg firmly facing forward.
- Rotate the arms, shoulders, and hips so they all become square.

4. Once square, place the toe pick if it's a toe jump.

5. Then, lock the shoulders so the body can not deviate from this
square position. This requires a moderate co-contraction of the
shoulder and bicep muscles.

6. Jump, letting the rotational force you just created with your
shoulders spin the body as a whole.

I haven't tried this on the ice yet, but in my living room it seemed
to make sense. #5 is the key thing I picked up.

I have a problem with wild arms, and my coach always tells me to keep
my left arm in front and bring the right arm to meet it. I think
perhaps this is just another way of saying the same thing.

Every toe jump I watched on that CD showed a nice straight picking leg
that then proceeded to bend during the setup until it was fully bent
right before picking, ready to extend quickly and launch the jump.

Andrea


03 Mar 2004 07:35:36
Dave Curtis
Re: Jump thoughts

redpixie wrote:

> Every toe jump I watched on that CD showed a nice straight picking leg
> that then proceeded to bend during the setup until it was fully bent
> right before picking, ready to extend quickly and launch the jump.

What I'm supposed to do, for both the toe loop and flip (and lutz too I
guess) is to pick in with the leg extended back, then allow the leg to
bend. So it's picking first, bending after, not bending before picking.

- Dave



03 Mar 2004 01:40:56
johns
Re: Jump thoughts


> 5. Then, lock the shoulders so the body can not deviate from this
> square position. This requires a moderate co-contraction of the
> shoulder and bicep muscles.

I understand what you mean by this, but there is no way you
could ever teach it. All jumps look like the shoulders are
turning early, but what a lot of people don't understand
is that the square shoulders don't occur right at the point
where the jump is started. The shoulders have to be moved
to the prerotated position where the skate blocks into the
ice. That is when the shoulders and body position must
be square and locked. Example: the loop jump requires
a 180 prerotation on the ice and the takeoff point is
"facing forward" at the 180 position. That is where the
shoulders lock in the loop jump, and the free skate pops
straight up over the jump skate .. with entire body square.
However, in the flip, I think the "square" position is right
where the jump starts ... no prerotation at all. The flip
is the first true 360 jump in all the singles, with the rotation
coming from the fact that the pick-in is not centered on
the locked shoulders, but is to one side.

johns




03 Mar 2004 14:44:16
Isiafs5
Re: Jump thoughts

>
>I was watching the ISU videos tonight and had an interesting thought
>about jumps. It looked like the kids in the videos were doing this:

Were the adults in the ISU jump video doing anything different than the kids?


Sling Skate

My recommended reading for body fat control:
http://www.geocities.com/~slopitch/drsquat/fredzig.htm












03 Mar 2004 09:01:07
redpixie
Re: Jump thoughts

johns,

Yes the square position is not always square to the line of travel,
especially on edge jumps. On the toe jumps it was with the line of
travel.

On the flip it looked like the pick went in square with the hips so
the feet were shoulder-width apart. I've heard a flip called a Toe
Salchow but I think it is closer to the loop, in that you are doing a
backspin on your take off leg as you jump. You could compare the loop,
flip, and lutz to the pivot backspin entry and the salchow, toe loop,
and axel to the S shaped 3 turn backspin entry.

Of course I can't do *either* backspin entry right now, but that just
underscores the value of backspinning to learn jumps.

Isiafs,

There are only kids on the ISU videos, no adults - at least that I
saw. They use a 10, 15, and 20 year old skater to demonstrate the
jumps. I was also concentrating mostly on the singles demos which were
all 10 year olds, hence "kids".

As for bent vs straight picking leg, that may be a religious
discussion. All the ISU videos had great technique and the voiceover
emphasizes that straight leg, but if you step-motion it, it is quite
clear they bend the leg as they bring it to the ice. The leg is fully
bent by the time the pick enters the ice, although on the toe loop
"fully bent" wasn't very much. On the flip and lutz there was a deep
bend in the knee.


04 Mar 2004 08:11:36
redpixie
Re: Jump thoughts

Tried some of this on the ice last night.

Locking my upper body generates a powerful, fast air spin. However
this is dependent on the lower body doing things right. :)

I think I have finally diagnosed my problem with the flip. I have been
landing it consistently on the left foot (even two footed landings
struck the left side first).

I'm trying to do a toe loop! I have been doing the flip just like a
toe loop - jumping primarily from the left (skating) leg and using the
right (picking) leg only to commence the rotation. So there's no
wonder I am landing on the left leg. I landed a few real flips when I
thought about transferring the weight to the right leg and then
jumping from the right leg. And finally the "drag" that johns talks
about made some sense. Unlearning the "toeloop-flip" is hard though. I
have been doing my half flips like this for 2 years. Which I could get
away with because they landed on the left foot anyway. Blasted
incorrect muscle memory!

Andrea


04 Mar 2004 14:30:33
e-skater
Re: Jump thoughts

isiafs5@aol.com (Isiafs5) wrote in message news:<20040303094416.09437.00000787@mb-m12.aol.com >...
> >
> >I was watching the ISU videos tonight and had an interesting thought
> >about jumps. It looked like the kids in the videos were doing this:
>
> Were the adults in the ISU jump video doing anything different than the kids?
>
>
> Sling Skate
>
> My recommended reading for body fat control:
> http://www.geocities.com/~slopitch/drsquat/fredzig.htm

Just a note to everyone: If you guys don't already know, the ISU
videos/CD's are on sale, 20% off at Rainbo, through I think 3-31.
Also, I am curious as to the answer to the above question. Not to
open a can of worms again, but since they are on sale, is there any
one CD/video which is better than the others (my meaning, is the spin
pack better than the various jump packs, or are certain jump packs
better than other jump packs)? I may just order the whole thing, but
interested in your opinions. Thank you Janet


05 Mar 2004 14:49:11
daveskates
Re: Jump thoughts

Hi Dave,
You do realize that toe-loops are different from flips and lutz's
right ?
Even though they both use a toepick, the toe-loop is a vaulting jump,
so the initial reach and placement of the leg in relation to the
skating foot is just as important in skating as how long the pole is
and where it is placed, to a pole vaulter. The pole has to flex or it
will break, and so will your bones. Reaching for the take off sets up
the weight shift distance from your skating foor to your taping foot.
The longer the distance the higher and slower the rotation of the
jump. The shorter the distance the lower the jump but the faster the
rotation. This is the primary difference in the "recipie" for single,
double and triple toe-loops that most skaters don't understand until
after they land them....at least consciously. Toe-loop take-offs are
from one leg, flip and lutz jumps use both because you must draw your
feet together after you reach and spring from both feet to grab some
air. Look at your tracings...you'll see it for yourself!
dave skates
Dave Curtis <dave@davecurtis.net > wrote in message news:<2Uf1c.7423$Db4.5617@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...
> redpixie wrote:
>
> > Every toe jump I watched on that CD showed a nice straight picking leg
> > that then proceeded to bend during the setup until it was fully bent
> > right before picking, ready to extend quickly and launch the jump.
>
> What I'm supposed to do, for both the toe loop and flip (and lutz too I
> guess) is to pick in with the leg extended back, then allow the leg to
> bend. So it's picking first, bending after, not bending before picking.
>
> - Dave


06 Mar 2004 15:45:50
Dave Curtis
Re: Jump thoughts

daveskates wrote:

> after they land them....at least consciously. Toe-loop take-offs are
> from one leg, flip and lutz jumps use both because you must draw your
> feet together after you reach and spring from both feet to grab some
> air. Look at your tracings...you'll see it for yourself!

Not everybody agrees with you on this subject. There are different
opinions around. I meant what I said. In particular, the way I am taught
is that the picking leg bends after picking in for the toe loop. In that
respect at least it is indeed similar to a flip and lutz. I know other
people think a toe loop should be done differently. Incidentally I am
also told that all my weight should be on the picking foot by the time I
take off for the flip or lutz, which means I am really only jumping off
the one foot, not both.

- Dave



06 Mar 2004 15:39:26
e-skater
Re: Jump thoughts

redsprite@myway.com (redpixie) wrote in message news:<7dc16dac.0403040811.52f44b61@posting.google.com >...
> Tried some of this on the ice last night.
>
> >
> I think I have finally diagnosed my problem with the flip. >
> I'm trying to do a toe loop! I have been doing the flip just like a
> toe loop - jumping primarily from the left (skating) leg and using the
> right (picking) leg only to commence the rotation. So there's no
> wonder I am landing on the left leg. I landed a few real flips when I
> thought about transferring the weight to the right leg and then
> jumping from the right leg. And finally the "drag" that johns talks
> about made some sense. Unlearning the "toeloop-flip" is hard though. I
> have been doing my half flips like this for 2 years. Which I could get
> away with because they landed on the left foot anyway. Blasted
> incorrect muscle memory!
>
> Andrea

I was doing the same thing, and still fall back into that "toe loop"
habit off and on. However, on those flip attempts where I not only
have the timing on the entry three, the lock on the upper body, AND
the weight transfer to the right leg, they pop right up. They aren't
very pretty, but I'm landing them on the left foot and getting a glide
out most of the time. I do agree it helps to think of jumping from
the right leg........I am now trying to add a decent reach back,
working toward getting more of a "pull back" or "drag" to make this
jump real! Good for you for being able to apply info and correct
yourself. That's something I can't often do....Janet