09 Aug 2006 14:57:58
AdultSkater
Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html



09 Aug 2006 16:13:56
Gordon
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries


The article says, in part:

"Ice-skaters also had a greater proportion of concussions -- 4 percent
-- compared with 0.6 percent of roller-skaters and 0.8 percent of
in-line skaters.

Christy Knox, CIRP research associate and one of the study's authors,
said all skaters tend to fall forward and attempt to break their falls
with their arms or hands.

But because ice-skating occurs on a slippery surface and attempts to
break falls with the arms and hands are often unsuccessful, resulting
in the head hitting the ice.

Knox said standard helmets may not adequately protect the ice skater's
face and front of the head from hitting the ice and many children are
unlikely to wear the most effective protection -- a hockey-style helmet
with a facemask.

The researchers who conducted the study are designing a wristguard with
a non-slip palm to prevent outstretched hands from slipping on the ice,
she said."

I think the last paragraph is a bad idea that will result in more
broken wrists and arms. I would also think the concussions are most
likely (in my experience) from falling backwards, not forwards.

AdultSkater wrote:
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html



09 Aug 2006 23:25:11
William Schneider
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

I saw that story earlier today. I don't doubt it at all because I've seen a
number of skaters hit their head on the ice -- myself included when I was
starting out.

The worst I've seen happened to an attractive, very tall woman in her 30's
who was hit by a hockey wanna-be. She went over backwards in the public
session, and was knocked out cold. They removed everyone from the ice except
for her husband and some rink staffers, called the squad, and after 5
minutes or so, she started regaining consciousness. That's a long agonizing
time for a loved one to be watching helplessly while wondering how severe is
the injury.

Once I managed to persuade another professor at the university here to take
group lessons, but in the first session, he went over backwards and hit his
head hard enough to cut it open in an inch-long gash. Lots of blood on the
ice. Another squad call, and unfortunately he never returned to skating. He
was OK though and never unconscious.

When I'm going over backwards (which is the easiest way for me to bang my
head), I now tuck my chin VERY tightly against my chest. I haven't hit my
head in years since I started doing that, although I've had scary falls. I
sometimes get strained neck muscles, but that's a bunch better than a head
injury.

The story mentions forward falls being the most common for head injuries for
toddlers. I was surprised by that, but with their limited upper body
strength, I can understand. Good reading.

Bill Schneider




09 Aug 2006 22:41:15
johns
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries


Sometimes these studies are sponsored by the Insurance
Company used by the ice rink ... or any other sports club.
My Gymnastics Club was investigated like that. Couple
of frowny faced suits with good hair doos came and stood
right in the middle of my tumbling floor while the girls were
practicing. I asked them to move off the floor, and both of
them did the "cop" routine with their hands on their hips
and stared me down. OK. Then I didn't "ask" them to move.
I told them to get off my floor, or I would move them off
my floor. Next thing I know, the club owner is in my face
with a long list of what has to be removed from the gym
before the Insurance Company will agree to provide
insurance. I told him we could choose between having
insurance .. and him having a salary ( I basically worked
for about 25 cents an hour ). He was British, so, naturally,
he told the Insurance Company where they could put
their insurance :-) Any way, these injury profiles are
used to push the Premiums more than they are used
to protect anybody from injury. My advice is ... don't
fall.

johns



10 Aug 2006 09:42:05
Steve
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 23:25:11 GMT, "William Schneider"
<william.schneider@ohio.edu > wrote:

>Once I managed to persuade another professor at the university here to take
>group lessons, but in the first session, he went over backwards and hit his
>head hard enough to cut it open in an inch-long gash

Yes, I've thought long and hard about encouraging others onto the ice
as a result of something similar. Since we took up skating we have of
course been joined by various family members and the kids friends on
ice. In the early days I used to encourage this. We visited my
sister and went with her whole family to the local rink, her
father-in-law being a non-skater, but encouraged by us to have a go.
Yup, he fell over backwards, nasty knock, dizzy for a little while,
scary fall, and a typical beginner accident. I felt responsible. I'm
really not so sure now about the ice as a place for "family fun" for a
group of total novices any more, though I know that's most of the
business at a typical rink. I myself had a moderately nasty back of
head knock last year, hopefully due to my then inexperience, it's so
common in the early days/months. I skate a public session Mondays, and
I'll admit I get more sensitive to the horrendous amount of falling
that goes on amongst raw beginners, the longer I spend on that ice.
Some of those falls are quite nasty. I'm not saying here that nobody
other than myself should take up the sport - but there is a period of
months at first when the dangers of this sort of fall, and indeed
forward pick related falls, are much higher. I think people that do
go to the ice should be doing so without any coercion from others,
making a considered individual decision, and fully aware that the
first months are a bit tough... I do hate to watch the dangerous
chaos that is a typical public session these days, indeed I think it
makes coach wince as well.

Steve


10 Aug 2006 04:12:42
AdultSkater
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries


AdultSkater wrote:
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html


- I have seen more than a few hard falls to the back of the head by
beginners and more advanced skaters.

- The best prevention might be good instruction.

- If a beginner asks me, I tell them that keeping their legs bent is
the first, best protection. Straight legs for a beginner is an
invitation to a hard fall.

- Fall like a rope and not like a board. Even now my instructor tells
me that if I know I am going down to bend my legs quickly so that my
fall distance is much less and thus the fall impact is much, much less.
Wilt quickly into the ice might be a way to think of it.

- The best that I have seen for a little kid was a very heavy, fluffy
jacket and a thick net hat. The little guy fell about three times per
minute for a complete session - no problem.

- Standard inline Wrist guards absolutely DO slide on the ice. Off ice
pushups might be a much better prevention training approach.



10 Aug 2006 12:48:07
W Letendre
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

AdultSkater wrote:
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html

****Sigh**** And here's hoping that my Darlin' Wife NEVER reads this
article. Already get full verse and chorus of,

"When are you going to start wearing a helmet?
Why do you make me worry like this?"

every time I take a fall.....

W Letendre



10 Aug 2006 20:48:34
Darius S. Naqvi
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

"AdultSkater" <isiafs5@aol.com > writes:

> AdultSkater wrote:
> > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html
>
>
> - I have seen more than a few hard falls to the back of the head by
> beginners and more advanced skaters.

I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
roller skating?

--
Darius S. Naqvi email: dsn at dsn dot incentre dot net
("From:" line email address with "nospam" removed)


11 Aug 2006 07:58:56
Dave
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

On 10 Aug 2006 20:48:34 -0600, dsn@dsn.incentre.nospam.net (Darius S.
Naqvi) somehow managed to impart:

>"AdultSkater" <isiafs5@aol.com> writes:
>
>> AdultSkater wrote:
>> > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html
>>
>>
>> - I have seen more than a few hard falls to the back of the head by
>> beginners and more advanced skaters.
>
>I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
>but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
>my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
>2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
>roller skating?

They're generally much less painful because there's not much friction
to abrade your skin; you tend to slide rather than have your clothes
and skin flayed off. If the ice is badly cut up during a busy session
there may be gritty ice particles which could cause some abrasion.

Dave.
<http://www.henniker.org.ukcolor=#0000FF> > 3000 photos especially
Edinburgh & Scotland. + 3D rendered art, old ads etc
but no other ads... * délété david to email me *


11 Aug 2006 09:25:22
Steve
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

On 10 Aug 2006 20:48:34 -0600, dsn@dsn.incentre.nospam.net (Darius S.
Naqvi) wrote:

>I've never, ever hit my head

As a skating family for about 20 months our score is me 1 (back of
head), father-in-law 1 (likewise), spouse Carol 1 (jaw impact), total
3 head injury incidents. Interesting that your experience and ours
seem to support the conclusions of the article.

Steve


11 Aug 2006 17:00:14
DB
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries


Darius S. Naqvi wrote:
> "AdultSkater" <isiafs5@aol.com> writes:
>
> > AdultSkater wrote:
> > > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html
> >
> >
> > - I have seen more than a few hard falls to the back of the head by
> > beginners and more advanced skaters.
>
> I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
> but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
> my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
> 2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
> roller skating?
>
> --
> Darius S. Naqvi email: dsn at dsn dot incentre dot net
> ("From:" line email address with "nospam" removed)

I don't think there is quite an equivalent in roller skating to
catching an edge on ice. That's a fall that can be a real head banger.
OTOH, I remember all too well locking wheels on roller skates, as we
were supposed to stroke so closely that we could hear our wheels click
together. Although that fall drops you like a ton of bricks, I don't
recall hitting my head on it.



11 Aug 2006 20:38:56
Darius S. Naqvi
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

"DB" <dbny9@aol.com > writes:

> Darius S. Naqvi wrote:
[...]
> > I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
> > but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
> > my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
> > 2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
> > roller skating?
> >
> > --
> > Darius S. Naqvi email: dsn at dsn dot incentre dot net
> > ("From:" line email address with "nospam" removed)
>
> I don't think there is quite an equivalent in roller skating to
> catching an edge on ice. That's a fall that can be a real head banger.
> OTOH, I remember all too well locking wheels on roller skates, as we
> were supposed to stroke so closely that we could hear our wheels click
> together. Although that fall drops you like a ton of bricks, I don't
> recall hitting my head on it.

Same here. Whenever I've locked my wheels, I instantly slam onto the
floor, either face down or back down, depending on whether I was
skating forward or backward. But I don't hit my head in either case.
The worst that happens is my fingers get bruised from my hands
slamming flat onto the floor. I guess I just don't know how to hit my
head.

--
Darius S. Naqvi email: dsn at dsn dot incentre dot net
("From:" line email address with "nospam" removed)


21 Aug 2006 10:41:49
Gary van der Merwe
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

Darius S. Naqvi wrote:
> I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
> but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
> my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
> 2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
> roller skating?


2 ways to fall and hit your head or face that are unique to ice skating
are

* Catching an edge. I did this on my second time on the ice while
attempting a 1 foot glide.
* Standing on the back of your skate when doing T-Stops or Outside
Mohawks



21 Aug 2006 20:08:11
Catherine Rees Lay
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

In article <1156182109.725430.181960@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com >, Gary
van der Merwe <garyvdm@gmail.com > writes
>Darius S. Naqvi wrote:
>> I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
>> but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
>> my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
>> 2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
>> roller skating?
>
>
>2 ways to fall and hit your head or face that are unique to ice skating
>are
>
>* Catching an edge. I did this on my second time on the ice while
>attempting a 1 foot glide.

>* Standing on the back of your skate when doing T-Stops or Outside
>Mohawks
>
I did this second time out in my new skates, when I'd been skating for
about 6 months. I tried very hard not to bang my head - and broke my
wrist instead.

Still, wrists mend better than heads.

Catherine.
--
Catherine Rees Lay
To email me, use my first name in front of the "at".


21 Aug 2006 21:58:55
Darius S. Naqvi
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

"Gary van der Merwe" <garyvdm@gmail.com > writes:

> Darius S. Naqvi wrote:
> > I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
> > but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
> > my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
> > 2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
> > roller skating?
>
>
> 2 ways to fall and hit your head or face that are unique to ice skating
> are
>
[...]
> * Standing on the back of your skate when doing T-Stops or Outside
> Mohawks

It seems to me that this can happen on roller skates too. If you lean
too far back, you feet shoot out forwards and you land on your back,
and there is the chance that your head will snap back onto the floor.
It seems to me that it should be just as possible on roller skates as
on ice skates.

--
Darius S. Naqvi email: dsn at dsn dot incentre dot net
("From:" line email address with "nospam" removed)


22 Aug 2006 01:49:02
Roger
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

On 21 Aug 2006 10:41:49 -0700, "Gary van der Merwe"
<garyvdm@gmail.com > wrote:

>Darius S. Naqvi wrote:
>> I've taken a few bad falls roller skating since I began 27 years ago,
>> but I've never, ever hit my head. I can't even imagine ever hitting
>> my head, unless someone sneaks up behind me and conks me with a
>> 2-by-4. Are falls in ice skating really that different from falls in
>> roller skating?
>
>
>2 ways to fall and hit your head or face that are unique to ice skating
>are
>
>* Catching an edge. I did this on my second time on the ice while
>attempting a 1 foot glide.
>* Standing on the back of your skate when doing T-Stops or Outside
>Mohawks

There are many ways of falling and hitting your head in a dangerous
manner, but I'd not list these as the most dangerous as in a head
banding, life threatening manner. OTOH you can break bones falling
from most any position under the right circumstances.

Falls that most of us just take in stride with a little experience
are, or can be very dangerous for those skaters who've not yet learned
how to fall.

For beginning, or relatively low time skaters the worst possible
situation I can see is trying to stand still which "on dry land" is
stable. On skates it is a position that is anything but stable. I've
been talking to skaters who were just standing there when all of a
sudden both feet shot out in front of them. Like in a comic strip they
virtually went horizontal *before* they dropped producing a sound like
a ripe watermelon being dropped on the pavement. It's a sound that
almost makes you sick just to hear.

Catching a blade? Depends on how you catch it. Again when learning
one foot glides the skater who falls properly is a rare skater in
deed. They just haven't had time to lean to go limp.

Sure I've done a face plant! Broke my nose doing it too. Messy? You
bet, but it really wasn't Head Banging dangerous like the guy whose
feet shot out from under him. How? Of all things it was doing
repeated two foot turns on a circle. Of course I was dizzier than my
cat after a game of "spin the cat" in the office chair and when my
lead skate caught I wasn't thinking real straight.

T-Stops and Mohawks? I fell a couple of times learning T-stops, but
they were a long way from head bangers. Twas the other end that ended
up black and blue.<:-)) The only other time I sat down that hard was
with my skate guards on. The main danger as I see it, when learning
T-stops is coming down on your wrists or elbows. OTOH if a skater is
still falling rigid at that point I would call them dangerous.
Mohawks? I've never fallen on those, but I'd expect to either set
down or end up sitting down and in either case, skidding across the
ice.

OTOH, how about spirals. I don't mean with the free leg dragging at
45 degrees, I mean standing on one foot with the leg straight, body
straight, and free leg straight and your foot above your butt.
By the end of the first week I could keep my foot up to the point
where my leg was level. In three I could do a good spiral and it
didn't take long to learn how to do a change edge. Sure I fell. I
don't know how many times I ended up digging in a toe pick the first
couple of days, but I never came near a face plant. OTOH my knees were
black and blue for two weeks.

The closest to doing a "head banger" was coming out of back cross
overs. I was really moving, hit something (don't know what),and ended
up stepping on the tail of a skate momentarily. I actually had time to
cross my arms behind my head and I hit rolling, but my head hit hard
enough to make me a bit queasy. The "road rash" on the back of my
head from skidding half the length of the arena was worse than hitting
my head.

I broke my right leg just above the ankle coming out of about the 15
th scratch spin in the previous hour. I stepped out of a forward
scratch on my right foot. When my weight came down on the left it
suddenly "stuck" and I ended up, "winding up" and setting down hard on
my right leg breaking it just above the ankle. As I said, I'd done
that spin probably 15 times in the previous hour with no problem.

That vast majority of my falls ended up with me skidding across the
ice on my sides, or butt. Usually a fall would come from pushing the
limits and getting into too deep an edge. The same was true with the
basic jumps which is about as far as I made it, but usually if I
didn't land right I'd end up sitting down...hard.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


21 Aug 2006 23:34:48
DB
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries


Roger wrote:
>
> For beginning, or relatively low time skaters the worst possible
> situation I can see is trying to stand still which "on dry land" is
> stable. On skates it is a position that is anything but stable. I've
> been talking to skaters who were just standing there when all of a
> sudden both feet shot out in front of them. Like in a comic strip they
> virtually went horizontal *before* they dropped producing a sound like
> a ripe watermelon being dropped on the pavement. It's a sound that
> almost makes you sick just to hear.
>
I once saw a very experience high level coach fall that way. She got
carried off on a stretcher and suffered a concussion.

> Mohawks? I've never fallen on those, but I'd expect to either set
> down or end up sitting down and in either case, skidding across the
> ice.
>

I took a head banger fall on a LFI Mohawk that shook me up enough to
scare me out of them for a few months. I never knew exactly what
happened, but it felt as if my R skate hit something. It could have
been my L blade or something on the ice. I have almost no turnout,
especially going CW, so it may well have been my blade.



29 Aug 2006 02:15:08
Roger
Re: Ice-skaters at risk of head injuries

On 9 Aug 2006 14:57:58 -0700, "AdultSkater" <isiafs5@aol.com > wrote:

>http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_37057.html

Two things I strongly disagree with in this report.

Not all skaters falling forward try to stop their fall with hands and
arms, at least not in the conventional manner, but it depends on
whether they are talking about casual skaters or those who are really
learning to skate, not just stand up and make it around an arena.

I think most skaters learn to roll on a forward fall some there around
the time they learn spirals. Roll with arms either tucked along side
the head or one arm on each side of the head serving as a cushion. It
sure worked for me doing spirals. Even after learning to do them well,
I'd have occasion to use that technique when the ice was crowded.

The other: Wrist guards. I want mine to slip when they hit the ice.
I don't like things that stop quickly when they contact the ice.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com