26 Jan 2005 13:03:06
sktrsumday
Back Xovers question

Doing backward crossovers, I've been having trouble staying on the whole
blade when I cross over--that is, I tend to rock forward toward the toe
(and end up scraping the toe pick when uncrossing). One coach told me I
need to keep my skating knee good and bent when I cross over (and in
general sit back farther). Another coach told me that when I cross over
I need to rise up a little, straightenging the skating knee somewhat.
Needless to say, their advice seems to be completely contradictory, so
I'm a bit confused. I'm curious as to what other people might have to say.


26 Jan 2005 20:28:53
George P
Re: Back Xovers question

I've always read and been told to stay down, so that the top of my head
remains at the same height off the ice, and to get good knee-bend of course.
Even if you're bobbing up and down, it needn't throw you on your picks.
Tuck your bum (and hips) in and don't let it stick out, lean forward less in
the upper body, and try to get your weight backwards, in the direction
you're skating rather than hunching over. Try to push your skates out in
front of you rather than sideways as you stroke. It sound like a confidence
thing, getting used to your weight being out and back rather than underneath
you. Your speed and lean take care of supporting it.

GP


sktrsumday <sktrsumdaynojunk@optonline.net > wrote in message
news:61RJd.1312$fV6.386@fe08.lga...
> Doing backward crossovers, I've been having trouble staying on the whole
> blade when I cross over--that is, I tend to rock forward toward the toe
> (and end up scraping the toe pick when uncrossing). One coach told me I
> need to keep my skating knee good and bent when I cross over (and in
> general sit back farther). Another coach told me that when I cross over
> I need to rise up a little, straightenging the skating knee somewhat.
> Needless to say, their advice seems to be completely contradictory, so
> I'm a bit confused. I'm curious as to what other people might have to
say.




26 Jan 2005 20:32:18
Fiona McQuarrie
Re: Back Xovers question

sktrsumday <sktrsumdaynojunk@optonline.net > wrote:
: Doing backward crossovers, I've been having trouble staying on the whole
: blade when I cross over--that is, I tend to rock forward toward the toe
: (and end up scraping the toe pick when uncrossing). One coach told me I
: need to keep my skating knee good and bent when I cross over (and in
: general sit back farther). Another coach told me that when I cross over
: I need to rise up a little, straightenging the skating knee somewhat.
: Needless to say, their advice seems to be completely contradictory, so
: I'm a bit confused. I'm curious as to what other people might have to say.

In my experience with coaches the "bend the knee" instruction is more
common, but the "rise up" coach might be concerned that you are sitting
too far down and your toe scraping is coming from your getting out of that
deep bend.It's hard to say without seeing you skate. But as an experienced
crossover toe scraper I can tell you two things that really helped me:
- Think "instep" when you are lifting your foot and putting it down. I
found this really helped me not push off and land on the toepick.
- Increase your lean into the curve you are creating. This really forces
you onto the part of the blade you should be using and away from the
toepick.

Fiona


26 Jan 2005 18:01:51
johns
Re: Back Xovers question

Typical. Don't worry about it. Right now while you are
learning, kind of stay towards those toepicks. They give
you a margin of safety and control. Nothing wrong with
that. As for bending the knees deeper, that will push
your toes down into the picks. As for sitting back more
when you don't have much experience .. that will cause
you to slip off the back of your blade and get hurt.
Trust your instincts while learning, and ignore the coaches
if they say things you simply don't feel ready to do. As
you practice, those problems will clear up.

johns




26 Jan 2005 21:37:55
sktrsumday
Re: Back Xovers question

George P wrote:
<snip >
> Tuck your bum (and hips) in and don't let it stick out, lean forward
less in
> the upper body, and try to get your weight backwards, in the direction
> you're skating rather than hunching over. Try to push your skates out in
> front of you rather than sideways as you stroke.

Fiona McQuarrie wrote:
<snip >
> - Think "instep" when you are lifting your foot and putting it down. I
> found this really helped me not push off and land on the toepick.
> - Increase your lean into the curve you are creating. This really forces
> you onto the part of the blade you should be using and away from the
> toepick.

George: That's just what my primary coach has told me (over and over and
over again!). I guess I just have to keep at it!
Fiona: I think these suggestions will be helpful.

Both of your suggestions kind of mesh with an experience I had today:
trying to do backward xovers while actually looking kind of back where
I'm going. It was a weird experience. I learned to do them just
looking forward, that is, in the direction I'm coming from (after making
sure there's no one who might suddenly appear behind me!). When I tried
actually glancing back over my inside shoulder, the whole thing felt
different, and I had the distinct feeling that once I'm not so confused
by the new feeling, it'll help both with not leaning back and with
leaning into the curve more. I can't wait until I can practice again!
Thanks to both of you for your comments.

Johns: Based on my admittedly limited experience, I'm not sure I agree
with you. My instincts tend to overcompensate for fears of falling--for
example, encouraging me to lean too far forward (upper body only) rather
than risk leaning too far backward (and usually I'm not nearly as far
backward as I fear I am). I need to learn to fight those instincts--at
least in part--and challenge myself. I find my instructors very helpful
that way.


26 Jan 2005 22:33:05
The Walsh Family
Re: Back Xovers question

Don't forget, part of this is muscles, you rarely use the anterior tibialis
for much other than preventing toe drag. So when you are standing still, go
up on your heals and pull the toes up as much as possible.
Lyle



"sktrsumday" <sktrsumdaynojunk@optonline.net > wrote in message
news:61RJd.1312$fV6.386@fe08.lga...
> Doing backward crossovers, I've been having trouble staying on the whole
> blade when I cross over--that is, I tend to rock forward toward the toe
> (and end up scraping the toe pick when uncrossing). One coach told me I
> need to keep my skating knee good and bent when I cross over (and in
> general sit back farther). Another coach told me that when I cross over I
> need to rise up a little, straightenging the skating knee somewhat.
> Needless to say, their advice seems to be completely contradictory, so I'm
> a bit confused. I'm curious as to what other people might have to say.





27 Jan 2005 16:57:46
Mrs Redboots
Re: Back Xovers question

sktrsumday wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Wed, 26 Jan
2005:
>
>Both of your suggestions kind of mesh with an experience I had today:
>trying to do backward xovers while actually looking kind of back where
>I'm going. It was a weird experience. I learned to do them just looking
>forward, that is, in the direction I'm coming from (after making sure
>there's no one who might suddenly appear behind me!). When I tried
>actually glancing back over my inside shoulder, the whole thing felt
>different, and I had the distinct feeling that once I'm not so confused by
>the new feeling, it'll help both with not leaning back and with leaning
>into the curve more. I can't wait until I can practice again! Thanks to
>both of you for your comments.
>
It does help. Also, keep your inside shoulder back, and imagine
pressing down on to the ice with that hand (but try to keep your hands
level, it shouldn't be much lower than your outside hand). And make
sure all your weight is inside the circle - there should be little or no
weight on your outside foot.

And keep practising..... it does help!
--
"Mrs Redboots" mailto:annabel@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos




27 Jan 2005 16:59:35
Mrs Redboots
Re: Back Xovers question

johns wrote to rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational on Wed, 26 Jan 2005:

>Typical. Don't worry about it. Right now while you are
>learning, kind of stay towards those toepicks.

Why learn it wrong and have to un-learn it?

> They give
>you a margin of safety and control.
>Nothing wrong with
>that.

It wouldn't if they did, but in fact, it will make it more likely that
you'll fall.

>As for bending the knees deeper, that will push
>your toes down into the picks. As for sitting back more
>when you don't have much experience .. that will cause
>you to slip off the back of your blade and get hurt.

No, it doesn't. It only feels like it will.... and I do agree, it
*does* feel like it will.

>Trust your instincts while learning, and ignore the coaches
>if they say things you simply don't feel ready to do. As
>you practice, those problems will clear up.
>
Except that "practice makes permanent", and you can practice yourself
into awfully bad habits.....
--
"Mrs Redboots" mailto:annabel@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos




27 Jan 2005 09:10:42
JeanneD
Re: Back Xovers question

<One coach told me I need to keep my skating knee good and bent when I
cross over >

One coach told me that you can never have enough knee bend for back
xovers. I try to skate quiet, that is, little body movement except for
the legs. Maybe when you are first learning it's ok to rise a little,
but as you progress you will definately want to remain quiet with your
body. As for conflicting opinions, that's pretty common with figure
skating and other sports, I've noticed.

Jeanne



27 Jan 2005 12:32:40
Janet
Re: Back Xovers question


JeanneD wrote:
> <One coach told me I need to keep my skating knee good and bent when
I
> cross over >
>
> One coach told me that you can never have enough knee bend for back
> xovers. I try to skate quiet, that is, little body movement except
for
> the legs. Maybe when you are first learning it's ok to rise a little,
> but as you progress you will definately want to remain quiet with
your
> body. As for conflicting opinions, that's pretty common with figure
> skating and other sports, I've noticed.
>
> Jeanne

Jeanne, agree with you re conflicting opinions. Also, it is often hard
to tell whether a person's coach maybe telling them something that
*seems* conflicting, just because at this particular time it is
presented to help the student with one aspect of an element. A "try
this" "try that" approach, which is sometimes used to get the student
to feel things (?).



27 Jan 2005 16:33:31
JeanneD
Re: Back Xovers question

Yes, sometimes a different approach is used to teach a skill. For
instance, Annie's edges, where you cross your skate in front of you on
an outside edge, while travelling backwards. When first learning it was
OK to jump or hop onto the edge. It's not the way to do the move at all
but still an effective exercise.

Jeanne

<<<Jeanne, agree with you re conflicting opinions. Also, it is often
hard
to tell whether a person's coach maybe telling them something that
*seems* conflicting, just because at this particular time it is
presented to help the student with one aspect of an element. A "try
this" "try that" approach, which is sometimes used to get the student
to feel things (?). >>>



27 Jan 2005 20:57:22
sktrsumday
Re: Back Xovers question

I'm going to go with my primary coach and work on staying down, knees
bent. I like the idea of "quiet skating," and my gut feeling tells me
that knees bent is more correct/effective than rising while crossing.

Actually, I found getting the input of two coaches both helpful and
interesting. I wish I could afford to double up on lessons more often...

JeanneD wrote:
> Yes, sometimes a different approach is used to teach a skill. For
> instance, Annie's edges, where you cross your skate in front of you on
> an outside edge, while travelling backwards. When first learning it was
> OK to jump or hop onto the edge. It's not the way to do the move at all
> but still an effective exercise.
>
> Jeanne
>
> <<<Jeanne, agree with you re conflicting opinions. Also, it is often
> hard
> to tell whether a person's coach maybe telling them something that
> *seems* conflicting, just because at this particular time it is
> presented to help the student with one aspect of an element. A "try
> this" "try that" approach, which is sometimes used to get the student
> to feel things (?).>>>
>