30 Dec 2004 10:11:51
Trudi Marrapodi
The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

I thought this would be a good topic for a nice, long thread...besides
which, I really do want to know the opinions of people who know more about
this subject than I do.

What do you guys think is responsible for the rebirth of ladies' skating
in Canada?

Just a few years ago, Canadian ladies was the usual joke...with either one
skater semi-dependable (with the emphasis on "semi") in the pack, and the
rest a completely undependable mixed bag, or a whole gang of mixed-baggers
who could be counted on to make the ladies' event at Canadians suspenseful
primarily in terms of who would fall the least, and manage to be
inadvertently crowned champion in spite of herself.

There were years when Canada had two ladies capable of making the top 10
at worlds and Olympics...but both could be counted on not to get beyond
5th place, despite their talent.

Now we have one who may be a little young and green right now, but holds a
lot of promise for the future if she can continue to keep the Puberty
Monster and the Injury Monster away, and another who has gone from being a
skater who seemed to be getting a lot of "buzz" but not yet delivering
into, well, a skater who is delivering, and has at least a good a chance
as anyone else of making the worlds podium.

I don't know, maybe I speak too soon, and I risk rousing the wrath of the
sleeping Canadian Expectations Monkey. (Or maybe he's not asleep, but
merely taking up permanent residence on Emanuel Sandhu's head.) But I
don't think so.

So, what's the difference? Is Skate Canada doing things differently? Are
the girls just happier since David Dore left for the pastures of ISU
leadership? Is it the coaching? Did they put something in the water?

I think it's one of the big skating stories of the year. So, why is it
happening? Discuss!
--
Trudi
in the home of the official Crayola "Rock and Roll Raspberry" state


30 Dec 2004 09:47:59
Pat C
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:11:51 +0100, trudee@clarityconnect.competent
(Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:


>So, what's the difference? Is Skate Canada doing things differently? Are
>the girls just happier since David Dore left for the pastures of ISU
>leadership? Is it the coaching? Did they put something in the water?
>
>I think it's one of the big skating stories of the year. So, why is it
>happening? Discuss!


I think the young ladies themselves decided to become competitive. A
different generation, and different coaching methods I think.

The young ladies got their backs up. ;) It reminds me of the way the
music thing went in Canada. There is still a 30% Canadian musical
content law that applies to radio stations. Now thesedays, that's a
joke. But back in the 70's when this law was enacted, we heard a lot
of Anne Murray and the Guess Who. (I still hate the GW with a
passion). Eventually, we now have a thriving music industry in Canada
that has given the world the talents of Celine (toothy grin), Avril
Lavigne, Shania, Nellie Furtado, Alannis Morrissette, and Nickelback
and many others.

Marilyn Chidlow has a different leadership style than David Dore, so
probably the touch on the reins is different. I'm not sure of her
history, but I know she's a skating mom first, rather than a former
eligible skater. ;) And it could be just the gender difference in
their leadership style. Who knows........but you don't hear the
grumbling that went on before, afaik.

I'm just glad we got there with a few talented ladies. I kind of like
the feeling. :)

Pat C






30 Dec 2004 18:25:57
Murray Peterson
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

trudee@clarityconnect.competent (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote in
news:trudee-3012041011560001@cci-209150248162.clarityconnect.net:

> [snip]
> What do you guys think is responsible for the rebirth of ladies'
> skating in Canada?

I have no idea, although it is nice to see.

I suppose a very "cold hearted" explanation is that the change is the
result of nothing more than random chance. Once you get a large enough
sample size (Canada has hundreds of skating clubs), then random
distribution rears up and a few people at the far end of the bell curve
show up at one time.


01 Jan 2005 12:25:58
Fudge
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

My thoughts on Canadian Ladies.

Changes started to happen when Skate Canada appointed former World Champions
Brian Orser, Barb Underhill and Petra Burka to be mentors to our skaters.
They travel throughout Canada looking for future talent and then get
financial assistance to those that need it (thinking Cynthia Phaneuf) to
help ensure they stay in the skating world.

Also, once figures were eliminated, Canada was slow to change their training
regime and begin training women to do triple jumps BEFORE hitting puberty.

I have been attending all the junior and senior events at Canadians since
1996 and have noticed a gradual change in the women's program. The junior
ladies had always been more competitive than the senior ladies. Now that
these junior ladies have moved into the senior ranks, those outside of
Canada are just beginning to notice what we have seen develop.

With Canada hosting the 2010 Olympics, I would think Skate Canada will
continue to develop their skaters in the hopes that we are on the medal
podium in all disciplines.

I just think Skate Canada is doing a much better all around job of helping
skaters fulfill their dreams.

Flaming Beaver

"Trudi Marrapodi" <trudee@clarityconnect.competent > wrote in message
news:trudee-3012041011560001@cci-209150248162.clarityconnect.net...
> I thought this would be a good topic for a nice, long thread...besides
> which, I really do want to know the opinions of people who know more about
> this subject than I do.
>
> What do you guys think is responsible for the rebirth of ladies' skating
> in Canada?
>
> Just a few years ago, Canadian ladies was the usual joke...with either one
> skater semi-dependable (with the emphasis on "semi") in the pack, and the
> rest a completely undependable mixed bag, or a whole gang of mixed-baggers
> who could be counted on to make the ladies' event at Canadians suspenseful
> primarily in terms of who would fall the least, and manage to be
> inadvertently crowned champion in spite of herself.
>
> There were years when Canada had two ladies capable of making the top 10
> at worlds and Olympics...but both could be counted on not to get beyond
> 5th place, despite their talent.
>
> Now we have one who may be a little young and green right now, but holds a
> lot of promise for the future if she can continue to keep the Puberty
> Monster and the Injury Monster away, and another who has gone from being a
> skater who seemed to be getting a lot of "buzz" but not yet delivering
> into, well, a skater who is delivering, and has at least a good a chance
> as anyone else of making the worlds podium.
>
> I don't know, maybe I speak too soon, and I risk rousing the wrath of the
> sleeping Canadian Expectations Monkey. (Or maybe he's not asleep, but
> merely taking up permanent residence on Emanuel Sandhu's head.) But I
> don't think so.
>
> So, what's the difference? Is Skate Canada doing things differently? Are
> the girls just happier since David Dore left for the pastures of ISU
> leadership? Is it the coaching? Did they put something in the water?
>
> I think it's one of the big skating stories of the year. So, why is it
> happening? Discuss!
> --
> Trudi
> in the home of the official Crayola "Rock and Roll Raspberry" state




01 Jan 2005 19:40:59
Trudi Marrapodi
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

In article <L2BBd.69930$Tn1.2185174@news20.bellglobal.com >, "Fudge"
<fudge@nrtco.net > wrote:

> My thoughts on Canadian Ladies.
>
> Changes started to happen when Skate Canada appointed former World Champions
> Brian Orser, Barb Underhill and Petra Burka to be mentors to our skaters.
> They travel throughout Canada looking for future talent and then get
> financial assistance to those that need it (thinking Cynthia Phaneuf) to
> help ensure they stay in the skating world.

You know, there's nothing I'd like better than to find some way or other
to credit all this to Brian Orser ;-), but seriously, you seem to believe
that he and the other mentors/talent scouts are making a difference in
terms of whether the good skaters are a) recognized and b) get the funding
they need. Interesting.

> Also, once figures were eliminated, Canada was slow to change their training
> regime and begin training women to do triple jumps BEFORE hitting puberty.
>
> I have been attending all the junior and senior events at Canadians since
> 1996 and have noticed a gradual change in the women's program. The junior
> ladies had always been more competitive than the senior ladies. Now that
> these junior ladies have moved into the senior ranks, those outside of
> Canada are just beginning to notice what we have seen develop.

This is what I'm wondering about. It seems to me, as an outsider, that in
the past the Canadian coaching system was slow to develop jumps in the
ladies and was determined to bring them along oh-so-slowly...to the point
where every time a Canadian senior lady went for a triple lutz, people
began to bite their nails because there was no way of knowing whether she
was going to pop it, double it, two-foot it or splat it, but she was
likely to do one of the four. Now it's like Rochette and Phaneuf do 'em
right and left and it's not such a biggie anymore, and to my mind it's
high time...as you pretty much need two of 'em to be competitive at the
top of senior ladies (in an ideal world). I gather what you're saying is
the new generation was not raised so gently and they're more able to hurl
themselves into the jumps without so much hemming and hawing?

> With Canada hosting the 2010 Olympics, I would think Skate Canada will
> continue to develop their skaters in the hopes that we are on the medal
> podium in all disciplines.

Which would be quite ironic now, given that David Dore was the "medals,
medals, medals!" guy. Then again, for his tenure he didn't do badly. I
just wonder how much of the success of Canadian skaters back then was
because of him and how much was in spite of him.

> I just think Skate Canada is doing a much better all around job of helping
> skaters fulfill their dreams.
>
> Flaming Beaver

It'd be nice to think so...I'm curious to see whether others agree.
--
Trudi
in the home of the official Crayola "Rock and Roll Raspberry" state


01 Jan 2005 19:56:23
Trudi Marrapodi
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

In article <o788t05f1kibpg5vjqouckig8mri9uimrq@4ax.com >, Pat C
<pcolpitts@t2.net > wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:11:51 +0100, trudee@clarityconnect.competent
> (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>
>
> >So, what's the difference? Is Skate Canada doing things differently? Are
> >the girls just happier since David Dore left for the pastures of ISU
> >leadership? Is it the coaching? Did they put something in the water?
> >
> >I think it's one of the big skating stories of the year. So, why is it
> >happening? Discuss!
>
>
> I think the young ladies themselves decided to become competitive. A
> different generation, and different coaching methods I think.
>
> The young ladies got their backs up. ;) It reminds me of the way the
> music thing went in Canada. There is still a 30% Canadian musical
> content law that applies to radio stations. Now thesedays, that's a
> joke. But back in the 70's when this law was enacted, we heard a lot
> of Anne Murray and the Guess Who. (I still hate the GW with a
> passion).

Which perhaps is unfair. :-) Yeah, I spent a lot of time in my youth
listening to CKLW (hey, it was so powerful it was the easiest station to
pick up on an AM transistor radio in northeast Ohio), and my youth was
filled with that good ol' Canuckian music. Heck, I have painful memories
of Terry Jacks songs OTHER than "Seasons in the Sun." But I digress
(although, in a somewhat skating-related reference, I must say that while
in a cab in Oshawa for the Orser show a few weeks ago, I heard the song
"Big Time Operator" on the radio for the first time in 30 years and
thought "Yeah, must've been a Canadian guy").

> Eventually, we now have a thriving music industry in Canada
> that has given the world the talents of Celine (toothy grin),

You knew you had to grin, make the sign of the cross and spit over your
shoulder three times before implying that giving Celine Dion to the world
was a good thing, hm? ;-)

> Avril
> Lavigne, Shania, Nellie Furtado, Alannis Morrissette, and Nickelback
> and many others.

Well, I would ask there whether all these artists became so successful
because they were better nurtured on Canadian radio or because they were
somehow better promoted in places beyond Canada. I mean, it doesn't matter
how many times CKLW played "Taos, New Mexico," it didn't turn R. Dean
Taylor into a big star in the rest of the world. To this day I am sure if
you asked 99% of Americans who he was (and 100% of those who did not grow
up in "border states"), if they remembered him for anything it would be as
a one-hit wonder with "Indiana Wants Me." (Unfortunately for him,
pretending for a second time to be an American guy on the wrong side of
the law did not score him as big a hit.) And Brits, French, Germans,
Australians, etc., might not remember him at all.

BUT I DIGRESS...I know that the Canadian Radio and Television Commission
doesn't run the figure skating concession, so...I guess what I'm saying
here is that more "exposure" per se won't necessarily result in a better
national product, whether in music or in skating. More opportunities to
perform could make a difference in both areas, and that may have happened
in Canadian skating. But I doubted it was the whole story.

> Marilyn Chidlow has a different leadership style than David Dore, so
> probably the touch on the reins is different. I'm not sure of her
> history, but I know she's a skating mom first, rather than a former
> eligible skater. ;) And it could be just the gender difference in
> their leadership style. Who knows........but you don't hear the
> grumbling that went on before, afaik.
>
> I'm just glad we got there with a few talented ladies. I kind of like
> the feeling. :)
>
> Pat C

Can't blame you for that. It must be very satisfying to feel you really
have dogs in the fight again-- a feeling that USAns tend to take for
granted, and realize they have taken for granted only when dealing with
something such as the recent Grand Prix Final.
--
Trudi
in the home of the official Crayola "Rock and Roll Raspberry" state


01 Jan 2005 19:16:02
Rex
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:56:23 +0100, Trudi Marrapodi wrote:
>> Eventually, we now have a thriving music industry in Canada
>> that has given the world the talents of Celine (toothy grin),
>
> You knew you had to grin, make the sign of the cross and spit over your
> shoulder three times before implying that giving Celine Dion to the world
> was a good thing, hm? ;-)

Now, now, I like Celine. And Thicke too, though the stage name needs to
be reworked. Also, he should pretend that he isn't Alan's son.


02 Jan 2005 00:50:03
Jennifer Lyon
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


In article <trudee-0101051956280001@cci-209150248027.clarityconnect.net >,
trudee@clarityconnect.competent (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:

>> Avril
>> Lavigne, Shania, Nellie Furtado, Alannis Morrissette, and Nickelback
>> and many others.
>
> Well, I would ask there whether all these artists became so successful
> because they were better nurtured on Canadian radio or because they were
> somehow better promoted in places beyond Canada.

Here in the Detroit area, our alternative rock station is based in Windsor
and has always played a lot of Canadian artists. (Lately, this station has
ventured more into nu metal, which I don't particularly care for.) I
remember hearing Sarah McLachlan back in 1990 or 1991, while it seems that
the non-border areas of the US didn't know who she was until 1994. The same
thing happened with other Canadian groups such as the Barenaked Ladies and
the Tragically Hip-- at a time when they were "new" to most Americans, I had
already been hearing them on the radio for three or four years. Even now, I
am sometimes not sure if a Canadian artist or band as "made it" in the USA
yet or not.

Sometimes, a band like Nickelback will get a lot of airplay on the Windsor
radio station and then the Detroit stations will pick them up. I don't know
if other American stations pick them up later on or what. But in some cases,
one artist will make it big and then others within the same musical genre
will follow. Sarah McLachlan's Lilith Fair tour did a lot to boost her
career, as well as the careers of other female artists (some of whom are
also Canadian). Alanis Morrissette begat Avril Lavigne and a number of other
similar-sounding artists, both Canadian and American.

> BUT I DIGRESS...I know that the Canadian Radio and Television Commission
> doesn't run the figure skating concession, so...I guess what I'm saying
> here is that more "exposure" per se won't necessarily result in a better
> national product, whether in music or in skating. More opportunities to
> perform could make a difference in both areas, and that may have happened
> in Canadian skating. But I doubted it was the whole story.

It's hard to tell right now. Both Joannie Rochette and Cynthia Phaneuf are
relatively new to the international skating scene. I have noticed that they
are both working with younger coaches, rather than members of the old guard.
But I don't know if these younger coaches are using different methods or
what. I haven't been able to find too many articles about either of these
ladies. In a way, that's a good thing, especially for Cynthia. If this were
1995 instead of 2005, the kid would already have her own PR machine and we
would be seeing her skating exhibitions in countless cheesey TV specials.
Given that most of the teen skaters of the "boom" era had difficulties
dealing with too much fame and too much hype, I think it's best to let
Cynthia and the other young skaters to develop at a slower pace.

BTW, CBC once showed a younger up-and-coming Canadian named Mira Leung who
also looks promising.


02 Jan 2005 01:43:50
manhn
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"Trudi Marrapodi" <trudee@clarityconnect.competent > wrote in message
news:trudee-0101051956280001@cci-209150248027.clarityconnect.net...
> In article <o788t05f1kibpg5vjqouckig8mri9uimrq@4ax.com>, Pat C
> <pcolpitts@t2.net> wrote:
>
>
> Can't blame you for that. It must be very satisfying to feel you really
> have dogs in the fight again-- a feeling that USAns tend to take for
> granted, and realize they have taken for granted only when dealing with
> something such as the recent Grand Prix Final.
> --

IMO, Skate Canada seems a bit too smug about the recent success of their
skaters. Good on them for getting their skaters ready for COP--but
eventually, other skaters from other countries will catch up.

Right now, there is no one sure medal winner in the bunch. Jeff can't land
quads; Emanuel is too inconsistent, and Cynthia and Joannie aren't yet top
tier. Pairs and dance are, at best, top 10 material and that is that (we'll
just have to wait for our junior teams to mature; Dube/Davison in pairs and
Virtue/Moir in dance have great potential).

In the last 10 years, Canada has seen 3 definite medal winners--B&K, S&P and
Elvis. And Skate Canada cannot be seen as having anything to do with S&P's
success. Our last few World medalists (B&K, S&P, B&E, Elvis and Kurt)
actually won Worlds sometime during their career. You have to look all the
way back to 1989 when Landry/Johnson won silver in pairs to find Canadian
skaters who won a medal at Worlds that wasn't golden. To me, that suggests
that it isn't Skate Canada that is churning out World medalists--rather,
it's the incredible talent of the individual skaters that helps them
overcome a flawed system.

I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the doubt, what with
not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada just ended its
streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I don't think
Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.

Lewis.




01 Jan 2005 20:24:17
Shillelagh
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"Jennifer Lyon" <jennifernolikespamlyon@prodigy.net > wrote in message
news:%yHBd.8624$_X7.5914@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>
> BTW, CBC once showed a younger up-and-coming Canadian named Mira Leung who
> also looks promising.

Heh - ask Fiona about Mira Leung.

Shelagh




01 Jan 2005 20:29:04
Shillelagh
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"Trudi Marrapodi" <trudee@clarityconnect.competent > wrote in message
news:trudee-0101051941040001@cci- > that ...to > to the point
> where every time a Canadian senior lady went for a triple lutz, people
> began to bite their nails because there was no way of knowing whether she
> was going to pop it, double it, two-foot it or splat it, but she was
> likely to do one of the four.

Yep - I remember not that long ago when Canadians were held in Winnipeg, 3
of us had pretty good seats in the Lutz corner, and did exactly that when
Jen Robinson lined herself up for her "Oh, my gawd, it's the Lutz!!". I'm
really glad for her she has matured into such a wonderful pro skater.

>Now it's like Rochette and Phaneuf do 'em
> right and left and it's not such a biggie anymore, and to my mind it's
> high time..

Rochette's jumps look much stronger and higher than Phaeuf's, and this year
I'm hoping for a big battle at Canadians between these two.

Shelagh





02 Jan 2005 09:15:58
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


Shillelagh wrote:

> >Now it's like Rochette and Phaneuf do 'em
> > right and left and it's not such a biggie anymore, and to my mind
it's
> > high time..
>
> Rochette's jumps look much stronger and higher than Phaeuf's, and
this year
> I'm hoping for a big battle at Canadians between these two.
>
> Shelagh

-----------------

Rochette is really great. She has poise and terrific concentration.
I think she, if she stays uninjured, could be a world champ. She's
really got what it takes. Reminds me of Kwan a little. Just hope she
has a long career and doesn't fade out. I think Phaneuf is good too
but not quite as good as Rochette. It's nice to see some other
country, besides USA/Russia/Japan to have ladies that are competitive.
Adds to the sport a lot and makes every Worlds a "world event". Just
hope our USA girls are up to the challenge. Wish Kwan was ready for
Worlds, I fear not. She hasn't competed in the new system and Cohen is
still injured, I guess. USA doesn't stand a chance of a medal unless
Kwan can hit 7 triples, which she is capable of, but who knows..she
seems to avoid the triple toe/triple toe like the plague, and IMO will
need it at Worlds or be left in the dust.


Doria



04 Jan 2005 12:59:46
Fudge
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"manhn" <manhn@home.com > wrote in message
news:qlIBd.662152$nl.244699@pd7tw3no...
>

> I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the doubt, what
with
> not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada just ended its
> streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I don't
think
> Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.
>
> Lewis.
>
>
Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a goal to
make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.

And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for years, Ben
Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long program.
He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to World's,
not Skate Canada.

Flaming Beaver




04 Jan 2005 14:24:35
Shillelagh
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net > wrote in message
news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a goal
to
> make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
>
> And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for years, Ben
> Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long
program.
> He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to
World's,
> not Skate Canada.
>
> Flaming Beaver

That is true, but Ben (much as I like his personality) is nowhere near the
skater Buttle is. And Skate Canada does decide who goes - remember a few
years ago when Sandhu wasn't sent to Worlds or the Olys (I don't remember
which) even though he placed second, I think? It was prabably a good
decision on the part of SC.

Shelagh




04 Jan 2005 21:58:31
manhn
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net > wrote in message
news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> news:qlIBd.662152$nl.244699@pd7tw3no...
> >
>
> > I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the doubt, what
> with
> > not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada just ended
its
> > streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I don't
> think
> > Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.
> >
> > Lewis.
> >
> >
> Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a goal
to
> make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
>

Even if this were the case (I'm still suspicious of it), Skate Canada hardly
put much of a fight wrt to that decision. Do you think the USFSA would have
backed down and let Kwan or Hughes or Lipinski withdraw just because their
coaches thought they were too young?

> And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for years, Ben
> Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long
program.
> He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to
World's,
> not Skate Canada.
>

SC has used 4CC's to determine World spots in the past. If they can do it to
determine between Nicole friggin' Watt and Annie friggin' Bellmare, they can
do it to determine if Ferreira should go ahead of Buttle.

Lewis.




04 Jan 2005 22:00:32
manhn
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"Shillelagh" <meow@cat.howl > wrote in message
news:6YCCd.8694$Ka6.62844@news1.mts.net...
>
> "Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
> news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > >
> > Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a goal
> to
> > make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
> >
> > And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for years,
Ben
> > Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long
> program.
> > He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to
> World's,
> > not Skate Canada.
> >
> > Flaming Beaver
>
> That is true, but Ben (much as I like his personality) is nowhere near the
> skater Buttle is. And Skate Canada does decide who goes - remember a few
> years ago when Sandhu wasn't sent to Worlds or the Olys (I don't remember
> which) even though he placed second, I think? It was prabably a good
> decision on the part of SC.
>
> Shelagh
>
>

It was the Olympics and it wasn't SC's decision. It was the Canadian Olympic
Committee's decision, just like not allowing any Canadian lady to go to
Nagano.

I thought it was a crappy decision, a decision that I believe still affects
Sandhu's career to this day.

Lewis.




04 Jan 2005 17:48:33
Fudge
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"manhn" <manhn@home.com > wrote in message
news:bkECd.696097$nl.493839@pd7tw3no...
>
> "Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
> news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> > "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:qlIBd.662152$nl.244699@pd7tw3no...
> > >
> >
> > > I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the doubt,
what
> > with
> > > not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada just ended
> its
> > > streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I don't
> > think
> > > Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.
> > >
> > > Lewis.
> > >
> > >
> > Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a goal
> to
> > make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
> >
>
> Even if this were the case (I'm still suspicious of it), Skate Canada
hardly
> put much of a fight wrt to that decision. Do you think the USFSA would
have
> backed down and let Kwan or Hughes or Lipinski withdraw just because their
> coaches thought they were too young?
>
> > And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for years,
Ben
> > Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long
> program.
> > He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to
> World's,
> > not Skate Canada.
> >
>
> SC has used 4CC's to determine World spots in the past. If they can do it
to
> determine between Nicole friggin' Watt and Annie friggin' Bellmare, they
can
> do it to determine if Ferreira should go ahead of Buttle.
>
> Lewis.
>
>
I believe that there is an extreme difference between the men and the ladies
in this case you are making. For the "friggin" ladies Watt and Bellemare, I
can see using 4 Continents to determine as both were fairly equal at the
time.

However, for the men involved, Ben Ferreira skated his heart out at
Canadians and landed 2 quads, in the short and long program. Jeff, who
still has not got a consistent quad did not land one at Canadians or at 4
Continents. In fact, his win at 4 Continents was an embarrassing win, not
one that Skate Canada could use to change the World Team. The 6.0 scoring
system at 2003 World's benefited those who had a quad, not the overall
package.

Mind you, if the same scenario happened this season, with the new scoring
system, I can see Skate Canada easily making the decision to send Jeff
instead of Ben.

I do believe you have to leave the decisions in the skaters hands or it just
makes a mockery of the whole system. It tells the skaters no matter how
well you do at Canadians, it's OUR decision who goes to World's.

Flaming Beaver




05 Jan 2005 00:48:04
manhn
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


"Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net > wrote in message
news:b2FCd.7472$7n1.559633@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> news:bkECd.696097$nl.493839@pd7tw3no...
> >
> > "Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
> > news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > >
> > > "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> > > news:qlIBd.662152$nl.244699@pd7tw3no...
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the doubt,
> what
> > > with
> > > > not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada just
ended
> > its
> > > > streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I
don't
> > > think
> > > > Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.
> > > >
> > > > Lewis.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a
goal
> > to
> > > make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
> > >
> >
> > Even if this were the case (I'm still suspicious of it), Skate Canada
> hardly
> > put much of a fight wrt to that decision. Do you think the USFSA would
> have
> > backed down and let Kwan or Hughes or Lipinski withdraw just because
their
> > coaches thought they were too young?
> >
> > > And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for years,
> Ben
> > > Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long
> > program.
> > > He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to
> > World's,
> > > not Skate Canada.
> > >
> >
> > SC has used 4CC's to determine World spots in the past. If they can do
it
> to
> > determine between Nicole friggin' Watt and Annie friggin' Bellmare, they
> can
> > do it to determine if Ferreira should go ahead of Buttle.
> >
> > Lewis.
> >
> >
> I believe that there is an extreme difference between the men and the
ladies
> in this case you are making. For the "friggin" ladies Watt and Bellemare,
I
> can see using 4 Continents to determine as both were fairly equal at the
> time.

And Buttle is much better than Ferreira.

>
> However, for the men involved, Ben Ferreira skated his heart out at
> Canadians and landed 2 quads, in the short and long program. Jeff, who
> still has not got a consistent quad did not land one at Canadians or at 4
> Continents. In fact, his win at 4 Continents was an embarrassing win, not
> one that Skate Canada could use to change the World Team. The 6.0 scoring
> system at 2003 World's benefited those who had a quad, not the overall
> package.
>

And even with Jeff's "Embarassing Win", Ben came, what, at 4CC--7th? 8th?
And Ben didn't even skate all that terribly.

> Mind you, if the same scenario happened this season, with the new scoring
> system, I can see Skate Canada easily making the decision to send Jeff
> instead of Ben.
>
> I do believe you have to leave the decisions in the skaters hands or it
just
> makes a mockery of the whole system. It tells the skaters no matter how
> well you do at Canadians, it's OUR decision who goes to World's.
>
> Flaming Beaver
>

It happens with a lot of European countries, so if Canada were to do it, it
wouldn't be that big a deal.

Lewis.




04 Jan 2005 22:17:44
Pat C
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

Polite cough...........


You're forgetting one thing.............Jeff was sicker than a dog.
And I saw him up close and personal on the concourse in Edm.
He looked brutal. He was told that he would need a good 6 weeks to
recover from the food poisoning. And from the way he looked, and the
way he skated I have no doubt that this was true.

As for the 4C's decision between Watt and Rochette........sad but
Rochette placed higher overall. Not that I liked the outcome, and I
think Watt should have gone to worlds. But that was at the end of the
Dore era. (shrug) I didn't like much he did back then. I don't
think the skaters did either.

Pat C






On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:48:04 GMT, "manhn" <manhn@home.com > wrote:

>
>"Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
>news:b2FCd.7472$7n1.559633@news20.bellglobal.com...
>>
>> "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
>> news:bkECd.696097$nl.493839@pd7tw3no...
>> >
>> > "Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
>> > news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> > >
>> > > "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:qlIBd.662152$nl.244699@pd7tw3no...
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > > I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the doubt,
>> what
>> > > with
>> > > > not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada just
>ended
>> > its
>> > > > streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I
>don't
>> > > think
>> > > > Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.
>> > > >
>> > > > Lewis.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a
>goal
>> > to
>> > > make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Even if this were the case (I'm still suspicious of it), Skate Canada
>> hardly
>> > put much of a fight wrt to that decision. Do you think the USFSA would
>> have
>> > backed down and let Kwan or Hughes or Lipinski withdraw just because
>their
>> > coaches thought they were too young?
>> >
>> > > And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for years,
>> Ben
>> > > Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long
>> > program.
>> > > He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to
>> > World's,
>> > > not Skate Canada.
>> > >
>> >
>> > SC has used 4CC's to determine World spots in the past. If they can do
>it
>> to
>> > determine between Nicole friggin' Watt and Annie friggin' Bellmare, they
>> can
>> > do it to determine if Ferreira should go ahead of Buttle.
>> >
>> > Lewis.
>> >
>> >
>> I believe that there is an extreme difference between the men and the
>ladies
>> in this case you are making. For the "friggin" ladies Watt and Bellemare,
>I
>> can see using 4 Continents to determine as both were fairly equal at the
>> time.
>
>And Buttle is much better than Ferreira.
>
>>
>> However, for the men involved, Ben Ferreira skated his heart out at
>> Canadians and landed 2 quads, in the short and long program. Jeff, who
>> still has not got a consistent quad did not land one at Canadians or at 4
>> Continents. In fact, his win at 4 Continents was an embarrassing win, not
>> one that Skate Canada could use to change the World Team. The 6.0 scoring
>> system at 2003 World's benefited those who had a quad, not the overall
>> package.
>>
>
>And even with Jeff's "Embarassing Win", Ben came, what, at 4CC--7th? 8th?
>And Ben didn't even skate all that terribly.
>
>> Mind you, if the same scenario happened this season, with the new scoring
>> system, I can see Skate Canada easily making the decision to send Jeff
>> instead of Ben.
>>
>> I do believe you have to leave the decisions in the skaters hands or it
>just
>> makes a mockery of the whole system. It tells the skaters no matter how
>> well you do at Canadians, it's OUR decision who goes to World's.
>>
>> Flaming Beaver
>>
>
>It happens with a lot of European countries, so if Canada were to do it, it
>wouldn't be that big a deal.
>
>Lewis.
>



04 Jan 2005 22:53:47
Pat C
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 19:56:23 +0100, trudee@clarityconnect.competent
(Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:

snip......... the Guess Who. (I still hate the GW with a
>> passion).
>
>Which perhaps is unfair. :-)

I don't think so. ;)

Yeah, I spent a lot of time in my youth
>listening to CKLW (hey, it was so powerful it was the easiest station to
>pick up on an AM transistor radio in northeast Ohio), and my youth was
>filled with that good ol' Canuckian music. Heck, I have painful memories
>of Terry Jacks songs OTHER than "Seasons in the Sun."

I had forgotten about him and the Poppy Family. Thanks.......not.

>
>> Eventually, we now have a thriving music industry in Canada
>> that has given the world the talents of Celine (toothy grin),
>
>You knew you had to grin, make the sign of the cross and spit over your
>shoulder three times before implying that giving Celine Dion to the world
>was a good thing, hm? ;-)

Well to give the woman her due, she's got a fab voice. Now, what she
does with it might be open to discussion...;) But talented she is.

>> Avril
>> Lavigne, Shania, Nellie Furtado, Alannis Morrissette, and Nickelback
>> and many others.
>
>Well, I would ask there whether all these artists became so successful
>because they were better nurtured on Canadian radio or because they were
>somehow better promoted in places beyond Canada.

No, they were talented, knew how to market themselves and we know have
people who know how to do this. A different generation of singer. :)


>BUT I DIGRESS...I know that the Canadian Radio and Television Commission
>doesn't run the figure skating concession, so...I guess what I'm saying
>here is that more "exposure" per se won't necessarily result in a better
>national product, whether in music or in skating. More opportunities to
>perform could make a difference in both areas, and that may have happened
>in Canadian skating. But I doubted it was the whole story.

Oh it's a variety of things. But it comes down to the person. I
think they just want to compete for Canada at an international level.
And not here people say: Ahh x.........could have been the best in
the world, but such a headcase. (shrug)


>Can't blame you for that. It must be very satisfying to feel you really
>have dogs in the fight again-- a feeling that USAns tend to take for
>granted, and realize they have taken for granted only when dealing with
>something such as the recent Grand Prix Final.

It's just nice to know the talent is around. It doesn't reside
somewhere else. ;)

And so will the net implode if MK wins? will the net explode if Mikey
wins US Nats?

;)

Pat C


05 Jan 2005 09:56:18
ant
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?


Fudge wrote:
> "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> news:bkECd.696097$nl.493839@pd7tw3no...
> >
> > "Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
> > news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > >
> > > "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> > > news:qlIBd.662152$nl.244699@pd7tw3no...
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the
doubt,
> what
> > > with
> > > > not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada
just ended
> > its
> > > > streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I
don't
> > > think
> > > > Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.
> > > >
> > > > Lewis.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had
a goal
> > to
> > > make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
> > >
> >
> > Even if this were the case (I'm still suspicious of it), Skate
Canada
> hardly
> > put much of a fight wrt to that decision. Do you think the USFSA
would
> have
> > backed down and let Kwan or Hughes or Lipinski withdraw just
because their
> > coaches thought they were too young?
> >
> > > And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for
years,
> Ben
> > > Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and
long
> > program.
> > > He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go
to
> > World's,
> > > not Skate Canada.
> > >
> >
> > SC has used 4CC's to determine World spots in the past. If they can
do it
> to
> > determine between Nicole friggin' Watt and Annie friggin' Bellmare,
they
> can
> > do it to determine if Ferreira should go ahead of Buttle.
> >
> > Lewis.
> >
> >
> I believe that there is an extreme difference between the men and the
ladies
> in this case you are making. For the "friggin" ladies Watt and
Bellemare, I
> can see using 4 Continents to determine as both were fairly equal at
the
> time.
>
> However, for the men involved, Ben Ferreira skated his heart out at
> Canadians and landed 2 quads, in the short and long program. Jeff,
who
> still has not got a consistent quad did not land one at Canadians or
at 4
> Continents. In fact, his win at 4 Continents was an embarrassing
win, not
> one that Skate Canada could use to change the World Team. The 6.0
scoring
> system at 2003 World's benefited those who had a quad, not the
overall
> package.
>
> Mind you, if the same scenario happened this season, with the new
scoring
> system, I can see Skate Canada easily making the decision to send
Jeff
> instead of Ben.
>
> I do believe you have to leave the decisions in the skaters hands or
it just
> makes a mockery of the whole system. It tells the skaters no matter
how
> well you do at Canadians, it's OUR decision who goes to World's.
>
> Flaming Beaver

I don't really know that its a huge point but if they skated for the UK
they'd be subjected to this rule - NISA has complete discretion to send
whoever they want to Europeans and Worlds, they publish criteria
explaining how they choose but they only have to take into account the
results from nationals and other international competitions, the winner
does absolutely have a right to go.

Ant



05 Jan 2005 20:24:52
Fudge
Re: The Canadian ladies' renaissance...what is responsible?

Pat, I have not forgotten that Jeff was still recovering from food
poisoning, heck I wanted to offer to be his - official chicken provider - as
I am an organic farmer. It was heartbreaking to sit in the stands and watch
him trying so hard, but he just did not have the energy to jump. Also, he
was ranked second in Canadian men's at the time. Had he been the Canadian
Champion, you could easily make the case that he should have been given the
second chance at 4 Continents to qualify for World's. And you cannot deny
that Ben Ferreira skated his heart out at Canadians, the place was rocking.

Flaming Beaver


"Pat C" <pcolpitts@t2.net > wrote in message
news:ncqmt01620q7b3bjk5p09j2fke22j4jr40@4ax.com...
> Polite cough...........
>
>
> You're forgetting one thing.............Jeff was sicker than a dog.
> And I saw him up close and personal on the concourse in Edm.
> He looked brutal. He was told that he would need a good 6 weeks to
> recover from the food poisoning. And from the way he looked, and the
> way he skated I have no doubt that this was true.
>
> As for the 4C's decision between Watt and Rochette........sad but
> Rochette placed higher overall. Not that I liked the outcome, and I
> think Watt should have gone to worlds. But that was at the end of the
> Dore era. (shrug) I didn't like much he did back then. I don't
> think the skaters did either.
>
> Pat C
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:48:04 GMT, "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
> >news:b2FCd.7472$7n1.559633@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >>
> >> "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> >> news:bkECd.696097$nl.493839@pd7tw3no...
> >> >
> >> > "Fudge" <fudge@nrtco.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:jPACd.6932$7n1.513966@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >> > >
> >> > > "manhn" <manhn@home.com> wrote in message
> >> > > news:qlIBd.662152$nl.244699@pd7tw3no...
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > I'm not yet willing to give Skate Canada the benefit of the
doubt,
> >> what
> >> > > with
> >> > > > not sending Cynthia and Jeffrey to Worlds last year. Canada just
> >ended
> >> > its
> >> > > > streak of winning at least 1 Worlds medal (it began in 1982). I
> >don't
> >> > > think
> >> > > > Canada will be beginning a new streak this year either.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Lewis.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > Excuse me Lewis, but it was Cynthia Phaneuf and her coach who had a
> >goal
> >> > to
> >> > > make it to Junior World's, their decision, not Skate Canada.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Even if this were the case (I'm still suspicious of it), Skate Canada
> >> hardly
> >> > put much of a fight wrt to that decision. Do you think the USFSA
would
> >> have
> >> > backed down and let Kwan or Hughes or Lipinski withdraw just because
> >their
> >> > coaches thought they were too young?
> >> >
> >> > > And as much as I love Jeffrey Buttle, has been my favourite for
years,
> >> Ben
> >> > > Ferreria tore the house down landing his quad in the short and long
> >> > program.
> >> > > He finished 2nd and Jeff finished 3rd, they decided who would go to
> >> > World's,
> >> > > not Skate Canada.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > SC has used 4CC's to determine World spots in the past. If they can
do
> >it
> >> to
> >> > determine between Nicole friggin' Watt and Annie friggin' Bellmare,
they
> >> can
> >> > do it to determine if Ferreira should go ahead of Buttle.
> >> >
> >> > Lewis.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> I believe that there is an extreme difference between the men and the
> >ladies
> >> in this case you are making. For the "friggin" ladies Watt and
Bellemare,
> >I
> >> can see using 4 Continents to determine as both were fairly equal at
the
> >> time.
> >
> >And Buttle is much better than Ferreira.
> >
> >>
> >> However, for the men involved, Ben Ferreira skated his heart out at
> >> Canadians and landed 2 quads, in the short and long program. Jeff, who
> >> still has not got a consistent quad did not land one at Canadians or at
4
> >> Continents. In fact, his win at 4 Continents was an embarrassing win,
not
> >> one that Skate Canada could use to change the World Team. The 6.0
scoring
> >> system at 2003 World's benefited those who had a quad, not the overall
> >> package.
> >>
> >
> >And even with Jeff's "Embarassing Win", Ben came, what, at 4CC--7th? 8th?
> >And Ben didn't even skate all that terribly.
> >
> >> Mind you, if the same scenario happened this season, with the new
scoring
> >> system, I can see Skate Canada easily making the decision to send Jeff
> >> instead of Ben.
> >>
> >> I do believe you have to leave the decisions in the skaters hands or it
> >just
> >> makes a mockery of the whole system. It tells the skaters no matter
how
> >> well you do at Canadians, it's OUR decision who goes to World's.
> >>
> >> Flaming Beaver
> >>
> >
> >It happens with a lot of European countries, so if Canada were to do it,
it
> >wouldn't be that big a deal.
> >
> >Lewis.
> >
>