23 Sep 2005 16:45:33
Neil Wallace
rig height

Hi all,

an engineer well-known in rowing circles is questioning the height I have on
my sculling rig.

Measuring from the lowest part of the seat to the bottom of the opening in
the oarlock... I am set up at 190mm bowside and 184 strokeside (1 red
"snapper difference").

From http://www.durhamboat.com/RIGBOATR.HTMI get a range of values for this
as

" A normal setting would be about 160mm +/- 15mm (6 " +/- ") from the
lowest part of the seat. "

does anyone have any thoughts?

Incidentally - my boat is 92kg, and I only weigh 85. I scull on a usually
flat calm piece of water.
Perhaps I simply like to be high?




23 Sep 2005 09:10:29
Re: rig height

It seems that the first priority is to be comfortable, does your rig do
that for you?

A contributing variable would be the height of the Swivel above the
waterline (when level of course). The question for the engineer would
be: "What is the height from the design waterline to the swivel?", and
follow up with "How much does this change with the 7kg I lack in Mass?"
(Mentioning Archemedes will make him smile, no doubt.)

I'm a big fan of experimenting, especially since you use snappers and
can change things quickly and easily. Start as low as you can, or as
high as you can and see what you like best during a series of small
changes. Don't forget to also try various side to side differences
along the way.

Of course it all changes if you decide on making a
span/inboard/oarlength too.

- Paul Smith



23 Sep 2005 18:19:16
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: rig height

Neil Wallace wrote:
> Measuring from the lowest part of the seat to the bottom of the opening in
> the oarlock... I am set up at 190mm bowside and 184 strokeside

Sounds fine to me. Leaves room for a nice clean recovery over the killer
thighs. Perhaps a slightly small difference. Do you have any complaints?
Like balance problems, bruised knuckles, weak finish, washing out? If not,
I say leave as is. Otherwise try 2 washers lower port, 1 lower starboard.
Or just try it anyhow and see if you can feel the difference.

> http://www.durhamboat.com/RIGBOATR.HTM
> "A normal setting would be about 160mm +/- 15mm (6 " +/- ")

Sounds a bit low to me.

> Perhaps I simply like to be high?

Lay off the novocaine!

--
E. Dronkert


23 Sep 2005 18:20:57
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: rig height

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> It seems that the first priority is to be comfortable, does your rig do
> that for you?

No no no no. First priority is going fast, of course.

--
E. Dronkert


23 Sep 2005 09:35:40
Re: rig height


Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> > It seems that the first priority is to be comfortable, does your rig do
> > that for you?
>
> No no no no. First priority is going fast, of course.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

Perhaps you could tell us what "fast" is? I suspect it's an elusive
definition with the range at the international level being 4.56-6.22m/s
for a 2k.

Of course, I'd be equally unable to define "comfort" for you, but I
know what it is for me.

Perhaps there is a palce for a "chicken & egg" debate over which should
come first. How will you go fast, if first you are not comfortable in
the stroke cycle?

Cheers,
Paul Smith



23 Sep 2005 17:42:06
mpruscoe
Re: rig height

Neil Wallace wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> an engineer well-known in rowing circles is questioning the height I have on
> my sculling rig.

I assume that he's doing that after having seen you in the boat?

> Measuring from the lowest part of the seat to the bottom of the opening in
> the oarlock... I am set up at 190mm bowside and 184 strokeside (1 red
> "snapper difference").
>
> From http://www.durhamboat.com/RIGBOATR.HTMI get a range of values for this
> as
>
> " A normal setting would be about 160mm +/- 15mm (6 " +/- ") from the
> lowest part of the seat. "

That's lower than current trends in some parts of the world. Their ideal
oarlock to sill measurement is lower than the value some respected boat
designers and coaches swear is the magic number.

I guess it depends a bit on trends in technique. If there's a big focus
on posture and sitting taller in the boat, rig heights will go up; if
the popular technique is to "sit low in the boat" then they'll be lower.
How the crossover is achieved will affect it also.

I might expect to see a bit more height differential as the rig height
goes up - 1+ cm at the heights you have given.


23 Sep 2005 18:52:30
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: rig height

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> How will you go fast, if first you are not comfortable in the stroke cycle?

Sheer will power.

Hey Paul, you didn't read my post twice before replying did you?! Here's a
hint: [[[[[[;0))))))

--
E. Dronkert


23 Sep 2005 09:59:15
Re: rig height


Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> > How will you go fast, if first you are not comfortable in the stroke cycle?
>
> Sheer will power.
>
> Hey Paul, you didn't read my post twice before replying did you?! Here's a
> hint: [[[[[[;0))))))
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

Nope, did you wink? I did recognize the style, but chose to challenge
you instead of giving you a pass, nothing unusual there. [;o)

Now answer the questions...

- Paul Smith



23 Sep 2005 20:28:32
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: rig height

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> Now answer the questions...

Seriously? I agree, of course.

--
E. Dronkert


23 Sep 2005 11:47:34
Re: rig height


Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Now answer the questions...
>
> Seriously? I agree, of course.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

Ah, I see now, my translation error.

Dutch: "No no no no. First priority is going fast, of course."
American English: "Noooooooo, Surely the first priority is going fast!"

Cheers,
Paul Smith



23 Sep 2005 21:00:41
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: rig height

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> Ah, I see now, my translation error.
>
> Dutch: "No no no no. First priority is going fast, of course."
> American English: "Noooooooo, Surely the first priority is going fast!"

You making fun of my second language AND calling me Shirley? Careful,
Smithers, you're going fast off course.

--
E. Dronkert


23 Sep 2005 12:34:26
Re: rig height


Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Ah, I see now, my translation error.
> >
> > Dutch: "No no no no. First priority is going fast, of course."
> > American English: "Noooooooo, Surely the first priority is going fast!"
>
> You making fun of my second language AND calling me Shirley? Careful,
> Smithers, you're going fast off course.
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

Yep.

Now you have switched to steering being a priority? I have to agree
with that, if we cannot stay on course, it won't matter how comfortable
we are or fast we go. [;o)

- Paul Smith



23 Sep 2005 21:25:13
Neil Wallace
Re: rig height

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
(snip)
> A contributing variable would be the height of the Swivel above the
> waterline (when level of course). The question for the engineer would
> be: "What is the height from the design waterline to the swivel?", and
> follow up with "How much does this change with the 7kg I lack in
> Mass?" (Mentioning Archemedes will make him smile, no doubt.)

he'd eat that for breakfast. trust me.

I'm very comfortable with that height... I came to it by experiment, and
have upped it since changing to Crokers. (I can now square blade without
clipping the water for the first time ever.)
I simply didn't realise it was above ave. until I had to measure it to set
up a hire boat to similar specs.

Thanks to all for comments.





23 Sep 2005 21:25:19
Neil Wallace
Re: rig height

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> If not, I say leave as is.

Thanks to everyone. A good discussion.







26 Sep 2005 15:57:27
John
Re: rig height


<paul_v_smith@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1127504066.797986.18490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> > paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Ah, I see now, my translation error.
> > >
> > > Dutch: "No no no no. First priority is going fast, of course."
> > > American English: "Noooooooo, Surely the first priority is going
fast!"
> >
> > You making fun of my second language AND calling me Shirley? Careful,
> > Smithers, you're going fast off course.
> >
> > --
> > E. Dronkert
>
> Yep.
>
> Now you have switched to steering being a priority? I have to agree
> with that, if we cannot stay on course, it won't matter how comfortable
> we are or fast we go. [;o)
>
> - Paul Smith
>

Nope you are both wrong. Not falling in is the first priority ;-)

J.




26 Sep 2005 08:29:15
Re: rig height


John wrote:
> <paul_v_smith@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1127504066.797986.18490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> > > paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > Ah, I see now, my translation error.
> > > >
> > > > Dutch: "No no no no. First priority is going fast, of course."
> > > > American English: "Noooooooo, Surely the first priority is going
> fast!"
> > >
> > > You making fun of my second language AND calling me Shirley? Careful,
> > > Smithers, you're going fast off course.
> > >
> > > --
> > > E. Dronkert
> >
> > Yep.
> >
> > Now you have switched to steering being a priority? I have to agree
> > with that, if we cannot stay on course, it won't matter how comfortable
> > we are or fast we go. [;o)
> >
> > - Paul Smith
> >
>
> Nope you are both wrong. Not falling in is the first priority ;-)
>
> J.

I've never actually made the transition from Rowing to swimming during
an outing. Generally this elicits the cliche' "If you haven't flipped,
you haven't sculled." in condescending sorts of tones (I guess they
don't realize that's what we say to 'flippers', to keep them from
getting discouraged, not because it's some sort of unintuitive
intication of skill or progress). Seems to have cuaght on nicely
though. [;o)

Cheers!

- Paul Smith



26 Sep 2005 08:34:38
Rob Collings
Re: rig height

John wrote:
> Nope you are both wrong. Not falling in is the first priority ;-)

I'm pretty sure I go fastest when everything is the right way up.
Probably something to do with the extra drag of a lardy arse in the
water. Not sure what my steering is like in the water either - we only
have to get a couple of feet to the bank so I haven't ever really
tested it.

Rob.



26 Sep 2005 18:06:10
Neil Wallace
Flipping was Re: rig height

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
>"If you haven't flipped, you haven't sculled."

I tend to think there is some truth in that.
Really good scullers long, loose (and therefore occasionally drenched) at
the catch.




26 Sep 2005 11:28:28
Re: Flipping was Re: rig height


Neil Wallace wrote:
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> >"If you haven't flipped, you haven't sculled."
>
> I tend to think there is some truth in that.
> Really good scullers long, loose (and therefore occasionally drenched) at
> the catch.

If I follow that logic to the competition, the "really good scullers",
rowing their very best, at the highest level of competition (nerves
too), should be flipping regularly in the finals. [;o)

Or are you taling about what you like to see, regardless of how the
boat is moving?

BTW - Is the catch the place where people tend to flip? I have had
some close calls and it has never been at the catch, generally a stuck
blade at the finish (seaweed or lillypads).

- Paul Smith



26 Sep 2005 12:43:41
J Flory
Re: Flipping was Re: rig height

> BTW - Is the catch the place where people tend to flip? I have had
> some close calls and it has never been at the catch, generally a stuck
> blade at the finish (seaweed or lillypads).
>
> - Paul Smith

Both times I've flipped have been at the catch. The second time doing
a stupid catch drill. I don't do it any more.

BTW, another way to test your heel restraints is to run into something
hard. I hit a low wooden dock unit floating out in the middle of the
harbor the other day. Popped right out of my shoes (Adidas but velcor
straps were only lightly done up),off the seat, and onto the seat deck.
Boat OK, ego shattered.



26 Sep 2005 12:50:49
Re: Flipping was Re: rig height


J Flory wrote:
>
> Both times I've flipped have been at the catch. The second time doing
> a stupid catch drill. I don't do it any more.
>
> BTW, another way to test your heel restraints is to run into something
> hard. I hit a low wooden dock unit floating out in the middle of the
> harbor the other day. Popped right out of my shoes (Adidas but velcor
> straps were only lightly done up),off the seat, and onto the seat deck.
> Boat OK, ego shattered.

Sounds like a brutal way to do such a test, glad to hear that it only
resulted in psychological wounds.

Perhaps you should describe said "stupid catch drill", so it can be
avoided by others.

- Paul Smith



26 Sep 2005 13:45:57
J Flory
Re: Flipping was Re: rig height


paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> Perhaps you should describe said "stupid catch drill", so it can be
> avoided by others.
>
It involved slapping the water at the catch with the blades feathered
and then lifting them, squaring them, and dropping them in. I am
easily confused and tried to slap the water with the blades (or at
least one of them) squared. It might not pose a problem for those with
greater mental capacity and coordination, but it seems stupid because
it's not something one normally does during the stroke.