23 Jun 2004 08:09:27
mark parsons
Swiss Thames Entry

Does anybody know anything about this crew? I heard a rumour it might be an
under 23 national crew!




23 Jun 2004 07:44:40
Karl F
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

They recently did 5:55 at Greifensee Regatta coming 2nd, no idea what
the conditions where like though.


23 Jun 2004 16:59:10
mark parsons
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

Sounds like they will be up there perhaps...

"Karl F" <karl2803@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:667eb730.0406230644.23c702db@posting.google.com...
> They recently did 5:55 at Greifensee Regatta coming 2nd, no idea what
> the conditions where like though.




23 Jun 2004 15:09:20
Anton
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

"mark parsons" <rower1969@ntlworld.com > wrote in message news:<gDiCc.1064$oR3.1008@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net>...
> Sounds like they will be up there perhaps...
>
> "Karl F" <karl2803@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:667eb730.0406230644.23c702db@posting.google.com...
> > They recently did 5:55 at Greifensee Regatta coming 2nd, no idea what
> > the conditions where like though.

HAVE NO FEARS. THEY WILL BE FAIRLY AVERAGE. TIMES ARE NO INDICATION
THE COURSES ARE NOT 2000 BUT NEARLY SO. SWEEP ROWING IS QUITE A LOW
STANDARD. THERE HAS BEEN NO DECENT STANDARD SINCE THE EARLY 90'S. EVEN
THE NATIONAL TEAM HAS FALLEN OFF THE PACE.


24 Jun 2004 09:17:15
Guy Ingram
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

No need to shout!

P.S. - Use CAPS LOCK to speak normally...

"Anton" <anton2468@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1c847edb.0406231409.2a840a9@posting.google.com...
> "mark parsons" <rower1969@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:<gDiCc.1064$oR3.1008@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net >...
> > Sounds like they will be up there perhaps...
> >
> > "Karl F" <karl2803@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:667eb730.0406230644.23c702db@posting.google.com...
> > > They recently did 5:55 at Greifensee Regatta coming 2nd, no idea what
> > > the conditions where like though.
>
> HAVE NO FEARS. THEY WILL BE FAIRLY AVERAGE. TIMES ARE NO INDICATION
> THE COURSES ARE NOT 2000 BUT NEARLY SO. SWEEP ROWING IS QUITE A LOW
> STANDARD. THERE HAS BEEN NO DECENT STANDARD SINCE THE EARLY 90'S. EVEN
> THE NATIONAL TEAM HAS FALLEN OFF THE PACE.




08 Jul 2004 14:03:26
Anton
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

The technical standard of rowing in GB is collapsing.


09 Jul 2004 08:47:00
PaulS
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407081303.123e12f5@posting.google.com >...
> The technical standard of rowing in GB is collapsing.

Completely agree, but why is it you say that?

- Paul Smith

PS - Prepare to be flamed by the various UK-ites. [;o)


12 Jul 2004 05:15:46
Caroline Turnbull
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407090747.78709e63@posting.google.com >...
> anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407081303.123e12f5@posting.google.com>...
> > The technical standard of rowing in GB is collapsing.
>
> Completely agree, but why is it you say that?
>
> - Paul Smith
>
> PS - Prepare to be flamed by the various UK-ites. [;o)

Not among the women it isn't - but maybe you're one of those men who
think women should stay in the kitchen and not go out and win Olympic
medals (which they undoubtedly will).

Grrrr!

Caroline


12 Jul 2004 13:17:11
PaulS
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

carolinetu@aol.com (Caroline Turnbull) wrote in message news:<6345a9a1.0407120415.36b89e4@posting.google.com >...
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407090747.78709e63@posting.google.com>...
> > anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407081303.123e12f5@posting.google.com>...
> > > The technical standard of rowing in GB is collapsing.
> >
> > Completely agree, but why is it you say that?
> >
> > - Paul Smith
> >
> > PS - Prepare to be flamed by the various UK-ites. [;o)
>
> Not among the women it isn't - but maybe you're one of those men who
> think women should stay in the kitchen and not go out and win Olympic
> medals (which they undoubtedly will).
>
> Grrrr!
>
> Caroline

The women seem to be doing a bit better than the men, they look to
have a nice pair. (Ooops, can I say that?) [;o)

Perish the thought, while I'm certainly in favor of women in the
kitchen (my wife cooks far better than I), I do the laundry, and she
and I row a 2x together several times a week at reasonable peformance
levels. She recently got a Gold medal in the W4x at our regional
regatta, I'm quite proud of her.

Cheers,
Paul Smith

PS - Any speculation on what color those medals might be?


12 Jul 2004 17:23:45
j brontey
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

> Not among the women it isn't - but maybe you're one of those men who
> think women should stay in the kitchen and not go out and win Olympic
> medals (which they undoubtedly will).
>
> Grrrr!
>
> Caroline

Yikes.


13 Jul 2004 05:05:29
Caroline Turnbull
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407121217.4dc7664a@posting.google.com >...
> carolinetu@aol.com (Caroline Turnbull) wrote in message news:<6345a9a1.0407120415.36b89e4@posting.google.com>...
> > paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407090747.78709e63@posting.google.com>...
> > > anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407081303.123e12f5@posting.google.com>...
> > > > The technical standard of rowing in GB is collapsing.
> > >
> > > Completely agree, but why is it you say that?
> > >
> > > - Paul Smith
> > >
> > > PS - Prepare to be flamed by the various UK-ites. [;o)
> >
> > Not among the women it isn't - but maybe you're one of those men who
> > think women should stay in the kitchen and not go out and win Olympic
> > medals (which they undoubtedly will).
> >
> > Grrrr!
> >
> > Caroline
>
> The women seem to be doing a bit better than the men, they look to
> have a nice pair. (Ooops, can I say that?) [;o)
>
> Perish the thought, while I'm certainly in favor of women in the
> kitchen (my wife cooks far better than I), I do the laundry, and she
> and I row a 2x together several times a week at reasonable peformance
> levels. She recently got a Gold medal in the W4x at our regional
> regatta, I'm quite proud of her.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul Smith
>
> PS - Any speculation on what color those medals might be?

Good for you (and her) - I refuse to row with my husband as we always
argue when we're in the same boat!

I reckon the pair and the quad could be on for gold. The quad looked
particularly impressive at Henley, comfortably beating the Ukrainians
who were bigger.

Caroline


13 Jul 2004 21:24:11
PaulS
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

carolinetu@aol.com (Caroline Turnbull) wrote in message news:<6345a9a1.0407130405.11c05c24@posting.google.com >...
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407121217.4dc7664a@posting.google.com>...
> > carolinetu@aol.com (Caroline Turnbull) wrote in message news:<6345a9a1.0407120415.36b89e4@posting.google.com>...
> > > paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407090747.78709e63@posting.google.com>...
> > > > anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407081303.123e12f5@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > The technical standard of rowing in GB is collapsing.
> > > >
> > > > Completely agree, but why is it you say that?
> > > >
> > > > - Paul Smith
> > > >
> > > > PS - Prepare to be flamed by the various UK-ites. [;o)
> > >
> > > Not among the women it isn't - but maybe you're one of those men who
> > > think women should stay in the kitchen and not go out and win Olympic
> > > medals (which they undoubtedly will).
> > >
> > > Grrrr!
> > >
> > > Caroline
> >
> > The women seem to be doing a bit better than the men, they look to
> > have a nice pair. (Ooops, can I say that?) [;o)
> >
> > Perish the thought, while I'm certainly in favor of women in the
> > kitchen (my wife cooks far better than I), I do the laundry, and she
> > and I row a 2x together several times a week at reasonable peformance
> > levels. She recently got a Gold medal in the W4x at our regional
> > regatta, I'm quite proud of her.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul Smith
> >
> > PS - Any speculation on what color those medals might be?
>
> Good for you (and her) - I refuse to row with my husband as we always
> argue when we're in the same boat!

Hmmm, that can happen too, but she's just finishing her 2nd year
rowing so the arguments don't get too bad WRT the rowing itself. (it's
quicker to let her win the others) [;o)

> I reckon the pair and the quad could be on for gold. The quad looked
> particularly impressive at Henley, comfortably beating the Ukrainians
> who were bigger.
>
> Caroline

The 4x will have to beat the gals from NZ, and that could be very
tough, but all the best.

- Paul Smith


13 Jul 2004 21:24:36
PaulS
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

carolinetu@aol.com (Caroline Turnbull) wrote in message news:<6345a9a1.0407130405.11c05c24@posting.google.com >...
> paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407121217.4dc7664a@posting.google.com>...
> > carolinetu@aol.com (Caroline Turnbull) wrote in message news:<6345a9a1.0407120415.36b89e4@posting.google.com>...
> > > paul_v_smith@hotmail.com (PaulS) wrote in message news:<c07ac95a.0407090747.78709e63@posting.google.com>...
> > > > anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407081303.123e12f5@posting.google.com>...
> > > > > The technical standard of rowing in GB is collapsing.
> > > >
> > > > Completely agree, but why is it you say that?
> > > >
> > > > - Paul Smith
> > > >
> > > > PS - Prepare to be flamed by the various UK-ites. [;o)
> > >
> > > Not among the women it isn't - but maybe you're one of those men who
> > > think women should stay in the kitchen and not go out and win Olympic
> > > medals (which they undoubtedly will).
> > >
> > > Grrrr!
> > >
> > > Caroline
> >
> > The women seem to be doing a bit better than the men, they look to
> > have a nice pair. (Ooops, can I say that?) [;o)
> >
> > Perish the thought, while I'm certainly in favor of women in the
> > kitchen (my wife cooks far better than I), I do the laundry, and she
> > and I row a 2x together several times a week at reasonable peformance
> > levels. She recently got a Gold medal in the W4x at our regional
> > regatta, I'm quite proud of her.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul Smith
> >
> > PS - Any speculation on what color those medals might be?
>
> Good for you (and her) - I refuse to row with my husband as we always
> argue when we're in the same boat!

Hmmm, that can happen too, but she's just finishing her 2nd year
rowing so the arguments don't get too bad WRT the rowing itself. (it's
quicker to let her win the others) [;o)

> I reckon the pair and the quad could be on for gold. The quad looked
> particularly impressive at Henley, comfortably beating the Ukrainians
> who were bigger.
>
> Caroline

The 4x will have to beat the gals from NZ, and that could be very
tough, but all the best.

- Paul Smith


14 Jul 2004 08:40:58
Neil Wallace
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

Caroline Turnbull wrote:
> Good for you (and her) - I refuse to row with my husband as we always
> argue when we're in the same boat!

so your husband is more argumentative than PaulS ??




14 Jul 2004 13:20:29
Carl Douglas
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

Neil Wallace <rowing.golfer*NOSPAM*@virgin.net > writes
>Caroline Turnbull wrote:
>> Good for you (and her) - I refuse to row with my husband as we always
>> argue when we're in the same boat!
>
>so your husband is more argumentative than PaulS ??
>
>
Let me save Caroline from that one, Neil!
1. No one is more argumentative than Big Paul. On a scale of 1 to 10,
Paul stands at 10. He is an international standard in this respect, &
we should cherish him. ;^)
2. John Turnbull is quite the mildest & most unassuming of people - on
dry land. Of course, on the water that could change........

Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)



14 Jul 2004 13:58:06
Anu Dudhia
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

Carl Douglas wrote:

> 1. No one is more argumentative than Big Paul.

Errm....




14 Jul 2004 08:06:55
PaulS
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

"Neil Wallace" <rowing.golfer*NOSPAM*@virgin.net > wrote in message news:<2lk6c0FdjrgiU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Caroline Turnbull wrote:
> > Good for you (and her) - I refuse to row with my husband as we always
> > argue when we're in the same boat!
>
> so your husband is more argumentative than PaulS ??

I knew there was a sense of humor in there somewhere. Good Show! [:oD

- Paul Smith


14 Jul 2004 11:46:14
PaulS
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

Carl Douglas <Carl@carldouglas.co.uk > wrote in message news:<xTA+EvANUS9AFw14@rowing-cdrs.demon.co.uk>...
> Neil Wallace <rowing.golfer*NOSPAM*@virgin.net> writes
> >Caroline Turnbull wrote:
> >> Good for you (and her) - I refuse to row with my husband as we always
> >> argue when we're in the same boat!
> >
> >so your husband is more argumentative than PaulS ??
> >
> >
> Let me save Caroline from that one, Neil!
> 1. No one is more argumentative than Big Paul. On a scale of 1 to 10,
> Paul stands at 10. He is an international standard in this respect, &
> we should cherish him. ;^)
> 2. John Turnbull is quite the mildest & most unassuming of people - on
> dry land. Of course, on the water that could change........
>
> Cheers -
> Carl

My Motto - "May as well be the best!" [;o)

Sounds like John and I may be Yin/Yang, I'm a very mild and unassuming
person on the water, no arguing required when illustration is so
easily at hand.

- Paul Smith


14 Jul 2004 21:29:44
David Biddulph
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

"PaulS" <paul_v_smith@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:c07ac95a.0407132024.3c37186@posting.google.com...
...
> The 4x will have to beat the gals from NZ, and that could be very
> tough, but all the best.

Think again Paul.

NZL don't have a W4x.
The list is AUS, BLR, GER, GBR, UKR, USA, DEN, RUS.
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/




14 Jul 2004 22:47:27
James Blythe
Re: Swiss Thames Entry


"Anu Dudhia" <dudhia@atm.ox.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:40F52DDE.E126C134@atm.ox.ac.uk...
> Carl Douglas wrote:
>
> > 1. No one is more argumentative than Big Paul.
>
> Errm....
>
>
Yes, a certain Mr. Hackworth of our acquaintance is a threat to that title.
Paul is, generally, more polite and eloquent than Pete as well.




14 Jul 2004 16:39:25
Anton
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

The Swiss boat sees very little competition domestically and trains
significantly less than top clubs in Britain. But iot made the final.

But the British boats seem to just bash and bash. There is no feel.
Maybe this is because they row on bad water and not smooth lakes.

And to the ladies response, did you really think that the Thames 8
rowed very well against an American University? That boat would not
hold its own against an international eight but it is the best non
scullers Britain has.

The gap between International and domestic is now very big and it is
why in particular the Lightweight standard is so poor in Britain.
London and Nottingham do not produce the technical talent they used
to.


15 Jul 2004 15:50:08
James Elder
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407141539.411ba7d7@posting.google.com >...

> And to the ladies response, did you really think that the Thames 8
> rowed very well against an American University? That boat would not
> hold its own against an international eight but it is the best non
> scullers Britain has.

Thames RC and University of London Women's BC (winners of the Remenham
at HRR) had been rowing as a crew for precisely ONE WEEK when they
raced the final - so perhaps they weren't the best drilled of crews.
But, yes, I did see them, and, yes, I thought they looked pretty good.

The crew was formed from the Great Britain senior coxless four (aiming
for the non-Olympic Worlds, and containing one Under 23 athlete) and
the Great Britain Under 23 coxless four (aiming for the Under 23
Worlds). As such, both crews are development boats.

The best non-scullers Britain has are Cath Bishop and Katherine
Grainger; reigning World Champions in the coxless pair. They were, of
course, not racing in an eight at Henley.

Thames RC (beaten by Thames and UL in the semi-final at Henley) is
undoubtedly the best club women's eight in the UK this season. At the
Holland Bekker at the weekend, they recorded a time of 6:28. Not too
shabby for a club crew, I think you'll agree.

There are certainly some problems in British women's rowing (more at
the club level than the international level) but things can't be that
bad if there are three British women's heavyweight crews in with a
chance of medals at Athens.

James
(Thames RC)


15 Jul 2004 15:56:58
James Elder
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

"David Biddulph" <david@biddulph.org.uk > wrote in message news:<cd48k7$af5$1@sparta.btinternet.com>...
> "PaulS" <paul_v_smith@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c07ac95a.0407132024.3c37186@posting.google.com...
> ...
> > The 4x will have to beat the gals from NZ, and that could be very
> > tough, but all the best.
>
> Think again Paul.
>
> NZL don't have a W4x.
> The list is AUS, BLR, GER, GBR, UKR, USA, DEN, RUS.

Is Paul perhaps thinking of the NZ Evers-Swindell sisters in the 2x?

They are a formidable unit but don't write off the GB 2x (Elise
Laverick and Sarah Winckless), a new crew this season who have come a
long way very quickly.

James


16 Jul 2004 11:19:19
Neil Wallace
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

James Elder wrote:
> Is Paul perhaps thinking of the NZ Evers-Swindell sisters in the 2x?
>
> They are a formidable unit but don't write off the GB 2x (Elise
> Laverick and Sarah Winckless), a new crew this season who have come a
> long way very quickly.
>
> James

That NZ double you mention is the only one I'd put my mortage on for gold.




16 Jul 2004 06:08:34
Anton
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

> The best non-scullers Britain has are Cath Bishop and Katherine
> Grainger; reigning World Champions in the coxless pair. They were, of
> course, not racing in an eight at Henley.
>
> Thames RC (beaten by Thames and UL in the semi-final at Henley) is
> undoubtedly the best club women's eight in the UK this season. At the
> Holland Bekker at the weekend, they recorded a time of 6:28. Not too
> shabby for a club crew, I think you'll agree.
>
> There are certainly some problems in British women's rowing (more at
> the club level than the international level) but things can't be that
> bad if there are three British women's heavyweight crews in with a
> chance of medals at Athens.
>
> James
> (Thames RC)

James

If the Eight was made of two established fours then it could not be
regarded as scratch.

6.28 on a fast course where a number of course records fell is not
very fast

The USA Worlds 4- trials had two crews under 6.40 and one a fraction
over. Amsterdam was fast and the GB crews could not get under 6.45.
These crews will struggle to win medals.

now look below

Bishop......Sydney/Atlanta 2-/8+
Grainger....Sydney 4x

Flood.......Sydney Spare
Houghton....Sydney 2x
Mowbray.....Sydney 1x

Winkless....Sydney 2x
Laverick....Sydney 8+

Beever......Sydney 8+

Romero........New!! Wow

Ok So no one has been developed since the mid 90's, fact. And your
club which always harks on about being the best womens club has to
take some responsibility. You have lost your way. It is not the fault
of the National Coaches. It would seem that they have done well given
that only Grainger won a medal or was even close to one in Sydney. And
now all three boats plus the Lwt 2x has a chance. They have done very
well.

I stand by my comments and we should revisit this after the Nations
Cup and World Championships. I doubt there will be much to celebrate.


16 Jul 2004 14:50:10
Nick Ablitt
Re: Swiss Thames Entry


> 6.28 on a fast course where a number of course records fell is not
> very fast

For a legitimate club crew I'd say that is pretty quick, this is a
different crew to the compisite of GB internationls that won Henley Royal.

> Ok So no one has been developed since the mid 90's, fact. And your
> club which always harks on about being the best womens club has to
> take some responsibility. You have lost your way. It is not the fault
> of the National Coaches.

Surely they have been developed if they are now in with a chance of
medals and weren't before? Below that in terms of the two fours, they're
not shit and many of them probably not even rowing in the mid 90's so
they've developed too.

Why exactly should thames take the blame, they actually do quite a lot
to support GB women's rowing, I'm sure James will tell you more. Who was
blaming the national coaches? Is it the role of clubs to groom people
for the national squad, if so why? If they are given lottery money etc.
to do so then fair enough but otherise they do and quite rightly should
have there own priorities. Even with the lottery money it is often a
fraction of the funding for the running of the club so it's
responsibilities are still to its members and not the GB squad.

I think Anton you have got somewhat carried away with your criticism of
Thames and James. James may be pushing the achievements of Thames
wihtout the most impartial view but I think he has every right to do so
without such bitter criticism.


16 Jul 2004 12:55:22
Anton
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

Nick Ablitt <nicholas.ablitt@imperial.ac.uk > wrote in message news:<cd8mek$hrc$1@harrier.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
> > 6.28 on a fast course where a number of course records fell is not
> > very fast
>
> For a legitimate club crew I'd say that is pretty quick, this is a
> different crew to the compisite of GB internationls that won Henley Royal.

Its simply not. GB Internationals? Sorry?

>
> > Ok So no one has been developed since the mid 90's, fact. And your
> > club which always harks on about being the best womens club has to
> > take some responsibility. You have lost your way. It is not the fault
> > of the National Coaches.
>
> Surely they have been developed if they are now in with a chance of
> medals and weren't before? Below that in terms of the two fours, they're
> not shit and many of them probably not even rowing in the mid 90's so
> they've developed too.
>
Those who are in the team who wee in the list have improved but they
have done so under the National Team wing. No one else has.

> Why exactly should thames take the blame, they actually do quite a lot
> to support GB women's rowing, I'm sure James will tell you more. Who was
> blaming the national coaches? Is it the role of clubs to groom people
> for the national squad, if so why? If they are given lottery money etc.
> to do so then fair enough but otherise they do and quite rightly should
> have there own priorities. Even with the lottery money it is often a
> fraction of the funding for the running of the club so it's
> responsibilities are still to its members and not the GB squad.


>
> I think Anton you have got somewhat carried away with your criticism of
> Thames and James. James may be pushing the achievements of Thames
> wihtout the most impartial view but I think he has every right to do so
> without such bitter criticism.

I was not criticising James.


16 Jul 2004 21:04:11
Nick Ablitt
Re: GB and Thames women (was: Swiss Thames Entry)

Anton wrote:
> Nick Ablitt <nicholas.ablitt@imperial.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<cd8mek$hrc$1@harrier.doc.ic.ac.uk>...

>> For a legitimate club crew I'd say that is pretty quick, this is a
>>different crew to the compisite of GB internationls that won Henley Royal.

> Its simply not. GB Internationals? Sorry?

Ok well tell us who in it is an international. It seems stupid you just
saying they are internationals without backing it up. In addition even
if a few of them have had some international experience does not mean
that they haven't a) improved at all recently or b)that improvement
can't be put down to assistance from the club.

> Those who are in the team who wee in the list have improved but they
> have done so under the National Team wing. No one else has.

Could you expand on what you mean exactly by "no one else".

Also could you explain why you are so critical, are you saying Thames
are at fault?


17 Jul 2004 17:44:42
Anton
Re: GB and Thames women (was: Swiss Thames Entry)

The point was made quite clear. No new individuals have even got close
to making the Athens team. It is made up of entirely established
previous Olympians except Romero. One would have thought that given
that a medal was won in Sydney to excite people to the sport and
encourage those in it to aim at Athens that more people would get
close. Trials results suggest there is a big gap between the Olympic
group and the next group down.

Of course people have improved but 4 years is sufficient for much
bigger improvements. Of course Thames are not alone in failing to
improve Athletes. However given they have professional coaching and
pride themselves on being the platform to step up into the squad they
need to look closely one would imagine.

This was not a hit at Thames.

As I said, I will return to this forum and we can view the results of
the Nations Cup and the World Championships. Then we will see how
International the eight at Henley was.


19 Jul 2004 07:12:00
David Biddulph
Re: Swiss Thames Entry

"James Elder" <jameselder100@excite.co.uk > wrote in message
news:bd245229.0407151450.48bad31d@posting.google.com...
...
> Thames RC (beaten by Thames and UL in the semi-final at Henley) is
> undoubtedly the best club women's eight in the UK this season.

Congratulations to Thames on their win yesterday in the Nat Champs, but they
were given a splendid race by the Vesta/ Star & Arrow composite.
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at http://www.biddulph.org.uk/
Nat Champs stuff at http://www.rowing.biddulph.btinternet.co.uk/natchs.htm
or http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/david_biddulph/natchs.htm




19 Jul 2004 15:22:03
Nick Ablitt
Re: GB and Thames women

> The point was made quite clear. No new individuals have even got close
> to making the Athens team. It is made up of entirely established
> previous Olympians except Romero. One would have thought that given
> that a medal was won in Sydney to excite people to the sport and
> encourage those in it to aim at Athens that more people would get
> close. Trials results suggest there is a big gap between the Olympic
> group and the next group down.

I think I understand your point which I haven't questioned about the
girls in olympic boats. But what is your reasoning for this. There seems
little point just tellingus all that rowing in the UK is rubbish without
really reasoning why that might be and what can be done about it.

> Its simply not. GB Internationals? Sorry?

I'd still be interested to know what you know about the Thames 8 as
opposed to the Thames/UL 8 that we were discussing earlier. Unless you
can reveal yourself to be all knowing about this situation so 'it's
simply not' isn't really an acceptable answer. Here are there names.
Still to me that looks like Thames have a good womens 8.

3 Thames RC 1:33.99 3:11.81 4:51.51 6:29.58
Baz MOFFAT, Julie TABBERS, Florence TEMPLE, Rachel LOVERIDGE, Louise
ENGEL, Alison PRESSLEY, Leigh TOWNSEND, Antonia SCHMEIGWOLD

> As I said, I will return to this forum and we can view the results of
> the Nations Cup and the World Championships. Then we will see how
> International the eight at Henley was.

Ok but what is the point of just looking at times and saying that's shit
and that's good. We don't need your opinion on just good/crap. If you
have an idea why that might be or how it can be improved then go ahead.


19 Jul 2004 13:21:50
Anton
Re: GB and Thames women

Nick Ablitt <nicholas.ablitt@imperial.ac.uk > wrote in message news:<cdgleb$65c$1@harrier.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
> > The point was made quite clear. No new individuals have even got close
> > to making the Athens team. It is made up of entirely established
> > previous Olympians except Romero. One would have thought that given
> > that a medal was won in Sydney to excite people to the sport and
> > encourage those in it to aim at Athens that more people would get
> > close. Trials results suggest there is a big gap between the Olympic
> > group and the next group down.
>
> I think I understand your point which I haven't questioned about the
> girls in olympic boats. But what is your reasoning for this. There seems
> little point just tellingus all that rowing in the UK is rubbish without
> really reasoning why that might be and what can be done about it.


>
> > Its simply not. GB Internationals? Sorry?

You have misunderstood. The point was being made that the eight that
beat Thames in the Henley race was an international boat. As I
understand it is people who have yet to perform to any distiction on
the international stage (we will call distinction a medal u23 or
Senior).Therefore in practice the Thames U.L boat was a club boat
against a good University Boat
>
> I'd still be interested to know what you know about the Thames 8 as
> opposed to the Thames/UL 8 that we were discussing earlier. Unless you
> can reveal yourself to be all knowing about this situation so 'it's
> simply not' isn't really an acceptable answer. Here are there names.
> Still to me that looks like Thames have a good womens 8.
>
> 3 Thames RC 1:33.99 3:11.81 4:51.51 6:29.58
> Baz MOFFAT, Julie TABBERS, Florence TEMPLE, Rachel LOVERIDGE, Louise
> ENGEL, Alison PRESSLEY, Leigh TOWNSEND, Antonia SCHMEIGWOLD

I was responding to a direct coment which was that the time of 6.28
was good for the club eight. For the top women's club in GB with
professional coaching I merely disagreed with the concept that it was
a fast time, in particular pointing out that the conditions were
record breakingly fast. The world best times for M4+ and W8+ i
understand to be similar. Molesey did 6.31? Thames 6.54 at the Nat
Champs. Just a thought. I am of course assuming conditions were the
same so I would concede the point if they were not.

>
> > As I said, I will return to this forum and we can view the results of
> > the Nations Cup and the World Championships. Then we will see how
> > International the eight at Henley was.
>
> Ok but what is the point of just looking at times and saying that's shit
> and that's good. We don't need your opinion on just good/crap. If you
> have an idea why that might be or how it can be improved then go ahead.

It is up to those involved to ask what the problem is, however from
this discussion and from the other gentlemans comments one would feel
convinced they did not recognise a problem existed.

Who is going to look at times? especially at the World Champs you will
see GB race countries who have their best 10 athletes in Athens (sweep
not sculling) For instance Germany Australia and the USA and Canada.
Therefore in direct competition GB athletes 3-7 will race the other
nations 11-14. We will look at finishing positions not time.

This has all grown from a simple comment and does not deserve the
attention it is getting. It does seem to have touched a nerve though.


19 Jul 2004 22:20:16
Tim Grange
Re: GB and Thames women (was: Swiss Thames Entry)

On 17 Jul 2004, Anton wrote:

> The point was made quite clear. No new individuals have even got close
> to making the Athens team. It is made up of entirely established
> previous Olympians except Romero. One would have thought that given
> that a medal was won in Sydney to excite people to the sport and
> encourage those in it to aim at Athens that more people would get
> close. Trials results suggest there is a big gap between the Olympic
> group and the next group down.
>
> Of course people have improved but 4 years is sufficient for much
> bigger improvements. Of course Thames are not alone in failing to
> improve Athletes. However given they have professional coaching and
> pride themselves on being the platform to step up into the squad they
> need to look closely one would imagine.

Having recently changed jobs and lost a decent news feed for a while, I come
back to this!!

Seems like there's an axe to grind here and not much chance of any rational (or
productive) debate. Complaining about the standard of rowing of a crew,
especially where some individuals are still very fresh out of junior rowing or
only started rowing quite recently, does seem slightly harsh.

Tim




19 Jul 2004 16:30:29
Caroline Gooch
Re: GB and Thames women

Nick Ablitt <nicholas.ablitt@imperial.ac.uk > wrote in message news:<cdgleb$65c$1@harrier.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
> > The point was made quite clear. No new individuals have even got close
> > to making the Athens team. It is made up of entirely established
> > previous Olympians except Romero. One would have thought that given
> > that a medal was won in Sydney to excite people to the sport and
> > encourage those in it to aim at Athens that more people would get
> > close. Trials results suggest there is a big gap between the Olympic
> > group and the next group down.
>
> I think I understand your point which I haven't questioned about the
> girls in olympic boats. But what is your reasoning for this. There seems
> little point just tellingus all that rowing in the UK is rubbish without
> really reasoning why that might be and what can be done about it.
>
> > Its simply not. GB Internationals? Sorry?
>
> I'd still be interested to know what you know about the Thames 8 as
> opposed to the Thames/UL 8 that we were discussing earlier. Unless you
> can reveal yourself to be all knowing about this situation so 'it's
> simply not' isn't really an acceptable answer. Here are there names.
> Still to me that looks like Thames have a good womens 8.
>
> 3 Thames RC 1:33.99 3:11.81 4:51.51 6:29.58
> Baz MOFFAT, Julie TABBERS, Florence TEMPLE, Rachel LOVERIDGE, Louise
> ENGEL, Alison PRESSLEY, Leigh TOWNSEND, Antonia SCHMEIGWOLD
>
> > As I said, I will return to this forum and we can view the results of
> > the Nations Cup and the World Championships. Then we will see how
> > International the eight at Henley was.
>
> Ok but what is the point of just looking at times and saying that's shit
> and that's good. We don't need your opinion on just good/crap. If you
> have an idea why that might be or how it can be improved then go ahead.

The Thames eight had been rowing in a vacuum domestically all season.
The fact that they had to row with the men on the Saturday at the Met
because of a lack of competition is what we need to address. Even on
the Met Sunday, they whooped the senior 1 field, with the next fastest
eight being Vesta in the senior 2 category. If we want to push women
from this top club level up to a competitive international standard,
they need high quality serious domestic competition. Until Nat Champs
the Thames crew met no domestic opposition at all. The fact that they
almost lost Nat Champs gave them a shock and will spur them on. We do
have a few women's crews now who are competing against each other and
starting to chase Thames, and next year will hopefully be very
interesting, this needs to be encouraged. It's no good saying they
aren't good enough if they have noone to race!


20 Jul 2004 02:17:29
Pete Williams
Re: GB and Thames women

carolinegooch@lineone.net (Caroline Gooch) wrote in message news:<2f2ade.0407191530.2eac5f44@posting.google.com >...
> Nick Ablitt <nicholas.ablitt@imperial.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<cdgleb$65c$1@harrier.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
> > > The point was made quite clear. No new individuals have even got close
> > > to making the Athens team. It is made up of entirely established
> > > previous Olympians except Romero. One would have thought that given
> > > that a medal was won in Sydney to excite people to the sport and
> > > encourage those in it to aim at Athens that more people would get
> > > close. Trials results suggest there is a big gap between the Olympic
> > > group and the next group down.
> >
> > I think I understand your point which I haven't questioned about the
> > girls in olympic boats. But what is your reasoning for this. There seems
> > little point just tellingus all that rowing in the UK is rubbish without
> > really reasoning why that might be and what can be done about it.
> >
> > > Its simply not. GB Internationals? Sorry?
> >
> > I'd still be interested to know what you know about the Thames 8 as
> > opposed to the Thames/UL 8 that we were discussing earlier. Unless you
> > can reveal yourself to be all knowing about this situation so 'it's
> > simply not' isn't really an acceptable answer. Here are there names.
> > Still to me that looks like Thames have a good womens 8.
> >
> > 3 Thames RC 1:33.99 3:11.81 4:51.51 6:29.58
> > Baz MOFFAT, Julie TABBERS, Florence TEMPLE, Rachel LOVERIDGE, Louise
> > ENGEL, Alison PRESSLEY, Leigh TOWNSEND, Antonia SCHMEIGWOLD
> >
> > > As I said, I will return to this forum and we can view the results of
> > > the Nations Cup and the World Championships. Then we will see how
> > > International the eight at Henley was.
> >
> > Ok but what is the point of just looking at times and saying that's shit
> > and that's good. We don't need your opinion on just good/crap. If you
> > have an idea why that might be or how it can be improved then go ahead.
>
> The Thames eight had been rowing in a vacuum domestically all season.
> The fact that they had to row with the men on the Saturday at the Met
> because of a lack of competition is what we need to address. Even on
> the Met Sunday, they whooped the senior 1 field, with the next fastest
> eight being Vesta in the senior 2 category. If we want to push women
> from this top club level up to a competitive international standard,
> they need high quality serious domestic competition. Until Nat Champs
> the Thames crew met no domestic opposition at all. The fact that they
> almost lost Nat Champs gave them a shock and will spur them on. We do
> have a few women's crews now who are competing against each other and
> starting to chase Thames, and next year will hopefully be very
> interesting, this needs to be encouraged. It's no good saying they
> aren't good enough if they have noone to race!

IMHO:

While the events at WHR a set by ARA points, the "top end" of domestic
rowing will suffer. The draw for HRR for male competitors is enough to
make them keep coming back for more year after year but for a woman
who is there or thereabouts and then out points herself from the
Club/Senior events there is little incentive to go through another
winter.

On the other hand quite a few women go through their competitive
career trying to avoid rowing points because they will have to race a
higher category at HWR. I think this is daft because a WHR medal is
very hard to get and I would imagine it would be some consolation to
have a cupboard full of pots and an ARA card on 12 points? The
disappointment felt by the members of this MAABC crew who have lost in
the HWR final in Club 8's with TwRC and now 2 in a row with MAABC must
be truly Titanic in proportions!

Bring in esoteric rules such as HRR and allow good athletes to be
unpunished by their success at other regattas in the quest for the
elusive and exclusive Henley medal.

These rules hamstring domestic competitors.

Or is it simpler than that? Do a lot of talented women leave the sport
when they get pregnant? Cutting short competitive careers by a few
years?

The junior girls system still seems to be very weak, producing nothing
like the strength in depth of the junior boys system. Coaches aren't
often of a very high standard or in it to leech vicarious glory
acquired from pushing their young charges too hard. Bullying them into
training and competing meaning they give up as soon as they are able
when they reach university.

This is a bit of a Catch 22 and I don't know the answer, we need
strong and well coached juniors coming through into university and
club level. Most years you could race the top Molesey crews as Hampton
Old Boys and you wouldn't be far off! I can't name the old LEH / KGS /
Headington rowers that have come through the ranks (And I look forward
to being proved wrong). We certainly only have one female rower at my
club who rowed as a junior and she is truly competitive now.

A lot of club rowers have taken up the sport at university which
almost without exception are of a low standard and when they arrive at
club. I will see a lot of crestfallen faces in September when I tell
them that St. Gertrudes's college 1st VIII, winning blades (whatever
that means, I'm not an Oxbridge alumnus) and a 2k ergo score of 8.05
with the caveat "I am a lot stronger in the boat" isn't good enough to
clean the first 8's boat let alone row in it!

Are there any rowers in the men's Athens squad who didn't learn their
trade as juniors?


20 Jul 2004 03:32:31
Guide Friday
Re: GB and Thames women

> The Thames eight had been rowing in a vacuum domestically all season.
> The fact that they had to row with the men on the Saturday at the Met
> because of a lack of competition is what we need to address. Even on
> the Met Sunday, they whooped the senior 1 field, with the next fastest
> eight being Vesta in the senior 2 category.

I think there is a lack of quality coaching at a regional level. There
are potentially good rowers who don't have an outlet to push
themselves further. It's not about clubs like Thames. Decent rowers
will always be drawn to clubs like Thames as it is successful.

We need to get back to a situation where clubs identify rowers with
potential, if they are interested the train regionally to develop
decent regional squads. The better ones within that structure can then
progress towards international levels.

How does a decent rower at a club like Doncaster get the coaching,
facilities and oportunity to prove themselves. It'll never be a level
playing field, but lets make sure we don't miss young talent coming
through by focussing on the 'big' clubs.


20 Jul 2004 13:02:02
chris harrison
Re: GB and Thames women

Guide Friday wrote:
> I think there is a lack of quality coaching at a regional level. There
> are potentially good rowers who don't have an outlet to push
> themselves further. It's not about clubs like Thames. Decent rowers
> will always be drawn to clubs like Thames as it is successful.

And they'll be drawn because that's where the ARA development scheme
says you have to go if you're to qualify for grants and such.

Thames is successful. Another handful of Nat Champs golds is testament
to that. But is it as successful as it should be? At least two of the
other boats in the Women's Open Eights final (Vesta and MAABC) got there
without the ARA support that TRC receive.

> We need to get back to a situation where clubs identify rowers with
> potential, if they are interested the train regionally to develop
> decent regional squads. The better ones within that structure can then
> progress towards international levels.
>
> How does a decent rower at a club like Doncaster get the coaching,
> facilities and oportunity to prove themselves. It'll never be a level
> playing field, but lets make sure we don't miss young talent coming
> through by focussing on the 'big' clubs.

Allegedly there are RDOs to identify and nurture talent - so it's a
matter for discussion; must an athlete move clubs (possibly towns) to be
with the coach, or should the coaches be flexible to go to their athletes?

Obviously squad training requires a squad to have shared water time, but
especially somewhere like the Tideway, or Nottingham, or anywhere else
with a clutch of clubs, this shouldn't necessarily mean one club
skimming off the cream of the crop.


20 Jul 2004 05:34:29
Anton
Re: GB and Thames women

>
> The Thames eight had been rowing in a vacuum domestically all season.
> The fact that they had to row with the men on the Saturday at the Met
> because of a lack of competition is what we need to address. Even on
> the Met Sunday, they whooped the senior 1 field, with the next fastest
> eight being Vesta in the senior 2 category. If we want to push women
> from this top club level up to a competitive international standard,
> they need high quality serious domestic competition. Until Nat Champs
> the Thames crew met no domestic opposition at all. The fact that they
> almost lost Nat Champs gave them a shock and will spur them on. We do
> have a few women's crews now who are competing against each other and
> starting to chase Thames, and next year will hopefully be very
> interesting, this needs to be encouraged. It's no good saying they
> aren't good enough if they have noone to race!

Simple answer

Split into two fours and race each other. Split into 4 pairs and race
each other. Split into small boats and test yourself against the
National Team (u23/Senior4-). I quite agree there is no depth. So you
create your own depth. When you put the eight back together it will be
faster.

Pick your eights races. Gent? Amsterdam? Henley where you know there
will be a race. Spend the rest of the time in fours and pairs against
better opposition or each other which does exist. Go train with the
squad and be the rabbit for a few weeks. Simply do not go to the
British regattas in an eight. Youre right, its a waste of time.

Frankly though you will not bridge the Club to Senior level rowing in
an eight anyhow, it does not demand enough boat skills.


20 Jul 2004 14:21:07
Nick Ablitt
Re: GB and Thames women

Finally some proper discussion rather than just criticism.


20 Jul 2004 11:42:42
Anton
Re: GB and Thames women

Nick Ablitt <nicholas.ablitt@imperial.ac.uk > wrote in message news:<cdj684$9ov$1@harrier.doc.ic.ac.uk>...
> Finally some proper discussion rather than just criticism.

Nick

If you had read back you would have seen that the conversation was
steered towards criticism by the gentleman from Thames.

The answer to the "Vacuum" problem is an answer and not criticism.
However the gentleman from Thames was displaying a head in the sand
approach or total ignorance of how good his crew should be. The very
fact that to thames there appears to be a vacuum shows no one is
thinking outside the box and are looking to stay ahead of those clubs
behind them instead of climbing to the levels above. The lady who
noted the issue of the vacuum was talking about next year and domestic
racing and again staying ahead of the pack rather than filling the
seats in the 2005 World Champs.

You have continually picked what you wish from the text and not taken
things as a whole. Indeed the very fact that you changed the thread to
GB and Thames women when the discussion began from a comment regarding
the composite boat at Henley suggests you are steering the
conversation your way and highlighting what you wish to.


20 Jul 2004 22:32:39
Caroline Gooch
Re: GB and Thames women

I do suspect that small boat rowing did play a part in the Thames squad
development as it does with most eights.

However, within the group of athletes, however well drilled, having another
crew who you don't think should be able to beat you, suddenly giving you a
kick up the arse is far more likely to drive you on than being spanked left,
right and centre at international regattas and by the squad.

> Simply do not go to the
> British regattas in an eight. Youre right, its a waste of time.

I didn't say it was a waste of time, and this sort of attitude is
counter-productive to developing women's rowing. My point is that other
clubs and regional centres need to be developed in order to provide some
competition. One rowing centre of excellence is not enough.




21 Jul 2004 01:48:31
Guide Friday
Re: GB and Thames women

chris harrison <news@lowfield.com > wrote in message news:<40fd09bb$0$58816$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>...
> Guide Friday wrote:
> Allegedly there are RDOs to identify and nurture talent - so it's a
> matter for discussion; must an athlete move clubs (possibly towns) to be
> with the coach, or should the coaches be flexible to go to their athletes?
>
> Obviously squad training requires a squad to have shared water time, but
> especially somewhere like the Tideway, or Nottingham, or anywhere else
> with a clutch of clubs, this shouldn't necessarily mean one club
> skimming off the cream of the crop.

All of what you say is true. But should that be the way we organise
rowing? Should someone with potential be made to choose between an
amatuer sport and a career? Could we do more to improve rowing
standards.

From my experiences, the standard of coaching and training schedules
is very hit and miss even within one club let alone across a region. I
disagree that you need an area with a clutch of clubs to get a decent
level of rowing. look at a club like Agecroft who have developed a
strong squad without any nearby opposition and the kind of backing
some of the tideway clubs have.

It seems the only way to get noticed in UK rowing is by being at a big
club on the Thames, going to one of the top Universities or having
gone to certain public schools.


21 Jul 2004 02:13:34
James Elder
Re: GB and Thames women

I don't have time for a full posting now (I'm at work) but do I have
quite a lot of thoughts on this (as you might expect!) and will try to
write something tonight.

For the time being:

I don't claim that everything is perfect in GB women's rowing
I don't claim that everything is perfect at Thames RC
I refute completely the idea that either Thames or myself have our
heads in the sand


21 Jul 2004 18:03:56
James Elder
Re: GB and Thames women

Anton and others

Some thoughts from me. I am not intending to get drawn into a
pointless argument on this and so will restrict myself to responding
to Anton's and Chris H's comments (cut and pasted from a number of
posts - so apologies if the ordering and formatting is a bit weird)
where I think they are wrong or misleading, or where I have something
to add. Ideally I don't intend to post again on this topic.

By the way, I am not an official spokesman for Thames - my views are
my own. My current role at Thames is co-ordinator of the senior
women's squad (in the vernacular, I'm a JAFA - Just another effin
administrator)

For those who don't want to read the whole thing, a summary of the
main points I make:

-Thames RC is a club like any other. We have a history in women's
rowing. As such we have two goals we set ourselves: to achieve
success at the highest level in domestic women's competition and to
develop women through to the GB national squad.

-We have not always been successful in either goal. We are always
trying to improve and, recently, we have taken significant steps to
renew our approach. Early results suggest some modest success. We
are absolutely not complacent.

-We do work closely with BIRO/ARA in some areas but we do not receive
anything like the financial support that others seem to think we do.
In fact, overall we end up supporting BIRO rather than the other way
around.

-The building works (new gyms, ergo room, tank and boat bays) just
about to start at Thames have been funded entirely by Thames itself,
the Thames Rowing Club Charitable Trust and the generosity of the
club's members. No ARA, Lottery, Sport England or other external
funding has been received for this.

-Women do not have to join Thames to gain High Performance Programme
coaching (and access to facilities) at the club. They can (and do)
continue to represent their own club.

Detailed comments:
-----
[Anton wrote...] It is up to those involved to ask what the problem
is, however from this discussion and from the other gentlemans
comments one would feel convinced they did not recognise a problem
existed. [Anton also wrote...] the gentleman from Thames was
displaying a head in the sand

[I respond...] This evening I spent 3 1/2 hours in an end of season
wash-up meeting with the Thames coaches. I find it rather ironic that
I'm now sat here responding to suggestions that we are complacent or
think that everything is wonderful and couldn't be bettered. We
aren't and we don't.

The wins by our eight at Women's Henley and Nat Champs were pleasing,
as were the wins by club members at Henley Royal and Lucerne but of
course we recognise that there is much more to be done.
-----
[Anton wrote...] I was responding to a direct coment which was that
the time of 6.28 was good for the club eight. For the top women's club
in GB with professional coaching I merely disagreed with the concept
that it was a fast time

[I respond...] First point - the coach (Marc Stchedroff) was unpaid.
Second point - of course we should be aspiring to go faster.
-----
[Anton wrote...] Split into two fours and race each other. Split into
4 pairs and race each other. Split into small boats and test yourself
against the National Team (u23/Senior4-). I quite agree there is no
depth. So you create your own depth. When you put the eight back
together it will be faster. Pick your eights races. Gent? Amsterdam?
Henley where you know there will be a race. Spend the rest of the time
in fours and pairs against better opposition or each other which does
exist. Go train with the squad and be the rabbit for a few weeks.
Simply do not go to the British regattas in an eight. Youre right, its
a waste of time.

[I respond...] Much of what you suggest was in fact done. As for
racing, the crew raced at Ghent, Met (with the men on Saturday),
Henley Women's, Henley Royal, Amsterdam and Nat Champs.
-----
[Anton wrote] Frankly though you will not bridge the Club to Senior
level rowing in an eight anyhow, it does not demand enough boat
skills.

[I respond...] Trying to help women move towards the National Squad is
one of our goals but not the only one. We are a club like any other
and our members want to see wins. We knew that we had a fast eight
and we felt (understandably, I think) that we wanted to set it loose.
Can other clubs claim that they wouldn't do the same?
-----
[Chris Harrison wrote...] And they'll be drawn because that's where
the ARA development scheme says you have to go if you're to qualify
for grants and such.

[I respond...] Chris, I'm not actually sure what you're referring to
here. AFAIK, no athlete has ever had to come to Thames to qualify for
a grant/lottery funding or similar.

The relationship Thames has with the ARA is that we are a High
Performance Programme (HPP) Centre for women. This means that we have
professional coaching (paid for by Thames, not by the ARA) aimed at
helping women bridge the gap between club and squad. Currently the
HPP coaches at Thames are Gary Stubbs and Miles Forbes-Thomas (a small
proportion of the latter's time - these days he works principally with
the national squad).

This coaching, along with Thames's facilities and boats are available
to any athlete, club members or not, who meets the ARA's standards and
is invited to participate. I emphasise again that you don't have to
be a Thames member - Tracy Matthews of Tideway Scullers is a good
example of an athlete who spent a year at Thames as part of the HPP
but who always rowed in TSS colours.
-----
[Chris Harrison wrote] Thames is successful. Another handful of Nat
Champs golds is testament to that. But is it as successful as it
should be? At least two of the other boats in the Women's Open Eights
final (Vesta and MAABC) got there without the ARA support that TRC
receive.

[I respond...] What ARA support is that? The Thames crew at Nat
Champs were all full, legitimate Thames members and none had come to
us through any ARA programme or similar; the coach was a Thames
volunteer, not a paid coach (Marc Stchedroff), the equipment was all
our own and purchased from our own funds without assistance. How is
this any different to Vesta or MAA? To my knowledge, the only ARA
support this crew received was that their boat went to Amsterdam on
the ARA trailer.

On the broader point, we do have some financial dealings with the ARA.
Overall, Thames supports BIRO rather than the other way around.
-----
[Anton wrote...] Ok So no one has been developed since the mid 90's,
fact.

[I respond...] Depending on your definition of 'mid', that's a little
misleading. I don't know the history of all the athletes in the GB
squad but I do know that Elise Laverick and Alison Mowbray both first
made the team in about 98 (?). Both were coached by Miles
Forbes-Thomas at Thames during this period.

I do take the point however (see below).
-----
[Anton wrote...] Those who are in the team who wee in the list have
improved but they have done so under the National Team wing. No one
else has.

[I respond...] It's also misleading to suggest that once an athlete is
in the national squad, clubs like Thames, UL and Leander have nothing
to do with their further development. Paul Thomson doesn't do all the
coaching himself. Currently he is coaching Grainger and Bishop, the
quad is being coached by Mark Banks (Leander) and the double is being
coached by Miles Forbes-Thomas (Thames). The senior coxless four is
being coached by Pete Somerville (UL), the Under 23 pair by Adrian
Cassidy (Rob Roy, I think) and the Under 23 four by Gary Stubbs
(Thames). The clubs do get recompense for this but it's safe to say
the ARA gets a very good deal
-----
[Anton wrote...] And your club which always harks on about being the
best womens club has to
take some responsibility. You have lost your way.

[I respond...] OK, the crunch question. If you had written that two
years ago I might have been inclined to agree with you. Thames has as
one of its own objectives to help women make the transition from club
to international level and we were not conspicuously successful at it
between 1998 and 2002.

We did develop Leonie Barron from being a club-level athlete to World
Champion in the LW2- in 2002 but I'd be the first to admit that
success in lightweight sweep rowing is not indicative of success at
the highest levels.

However, we are already addressing these issues ourselves. In 2002
Thames appointed Gary Stubbs as Assistant High Performance Coach
(assistant to Miles Forbes-Thomas who now works predominantly with the
National Squad)

In 2003 Gary took Alison Knowles (Exeter Univ), Beth Rodford
(Molesey), Marsaili Scott (Durham Univ) and Tracy Matthews (Tideway
Scullers) to the A final at the World Under 23s. This exceeded what
was expected of the crew. The crew was based at Thames and used
Thames equipment (provided free).

Alison and Beth subsequently decided to join Thames (good for them)
and have continued to train with us.

In 2004 Alison and Beth, joined by Anna Bebington (Rob Roy) and Tash
Page (Reading Univ) are again going to the World U23s. Again coached
by Gary Stubbs at Thames and again using equipment provided free by
us. When they were selected to row at Lucerne (at which they won)
they earned GB senior vests. In spite of what Anton says, I think
this crew has every chance of success.

In 2005 we hope that Alison and Beth will again be successful at GB
trials. We will also be aiming to help several of the girls who were
in the Thames eight though the trials process and beyond.

We are also starting building work to improve our facilities and in
the New Year will have a new building with 2 gymnasia, a rowing tank,
a 24 space ergo room and a physio/treatment room. We are not
receiving any lottery or other external funding for this - we have
raised it all through the generosity of Club members and the Thames
Rowing Club charitable trust.

We are not yet where we want to be and we are continuing to work to
improve. I put a lot of my own time into Thames and am committed to
see the club achieving, and helping GB achieve, at the highest levels.
I'll say it one last time - we are not and never have been
complacent.

It is now the wee small hours of the morning and I'm signing off.

James


22 Jul 2004 11:42:29
Anne Rogers
Re: GB and Thames women (was: Swiss Thames Entry)

> The point was made quite clear. No new individuals have even got close
> to making the Athens team. It is made up of entirely established
> previous Olympians except Romero. One would have thought that given
> that a medal was won in Sydney to excite people to the sport and
> encourage those in it to aim at Athens that more people would get
> close. Trials results suggest there is a big gap between the Olympic
> group and the next group down.

true for heavyweights, but in the lightweights Jo Hammond was very close!


22 Jul 2004 11:47:04
Anne Rogers
Re: GB and Thames women

>
> Or is it simpler than that? Do a lot of talented women leave the sport
> when they get pregnant? Cutting short competitive careers by a few
> years?

I doubt it, we've 5 womens eights rowing in the town bumps this week and
we've regularly got the equivalent of three eights rowing, of the women
I've known to row at nines in the last 4 years, there have been 3 babies,
only one from someone who was actually rowing when she got pregnant,
another was someone who stopped rowing a few months before and the other
was me, a cox.

I think careers are more of a problem...


22 Jul 2004 11:53:01
Anne Rogers
Re: GB and Thames women (was: Swiss Thames Entry)

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Tim Grange wrote:

you might what to change that to Tim Granger? unless you want to change
your name!

thanks for wishing our crew luck


08 Aug 2004 03:55:38
James Elder
Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0407160508.19a881d4@posting.google.com >...

> The USA Worlds 4- trials had two crews under 6.40 and one a fraction
> over. Amsterdam was fast and the GB crews could not get under 6.45.
> These crews will struggle to win medals.
<snip >
> Ok So no one has been developed since the mid 90's, fact. And your
> club which always harks on about being the best womens club has to
> take some responsibility. You have lost your way.
<snip >
> I stand by my comments and we should revisit this after the Nations
> Cup and World Championships. I doubt there will be much to celebrate.

Well, bearing in mind this and some of the other postings last month,
I think I would have had it brought to my attention had we done badly.

So, I hope you'll forgive me for enjoying my moment in the sun. Here
is the Women's 4- result from the World Under 23 Regatta (formerly
Nation's Cup):

1 Great Britain 7:22.15
2 Australia 7:25.22
3 Canada 7:26.37
4 Ukraine 7:33.46
5 Belorusse 7:37.58
6 France 7:43.95

The Great Britain crew was:

Bow Natasha Page (Reading University BC)
2 Anna Bebington (Rob Roy BC)
3 Beth Rodford (Thames RC)
Stroke Alison Knowles (Thames RC)
Coach Gary Stubbs (Thames RC)

The crew rowed in 'Bryan Richards GM', loaned free by Thames RC.

Well done to all of the crew on a fantastic result and I sincerely
hope that they move up to an illustrious career in the GB senior
squad.

James


08 Aug 2004 17:33:51
Carl Douglas
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

James Elder <jameselder100@excite.co.uk > writes
>anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote
>> The USA Worlds 4- trials had two crews under 6.40 and one a fraction
>> over. Amsterdam was fast and the GB crews could not get under 6.45.
>> These crews will struggle to win medals.
><snip>
>> Ok So no one has been developed since the mid 90's, fact. And your
>> club which always harks on about being the best womens club has to
>> take some responsibility. You have lost your way.
><snip>
>> I stand by my comments and we should revisit this after the Nations
>> Cup and World Championships. I doubt there will be much to celebrate.
>
>Well, bearing in mind this and some of the other postings last month,
>I think I would have had it brought to my attention had we done badly.
>
>So, I hope you'll forgive me for enjoying my moment in the sun. Here
>is the Women's 4- result from the World Under 23 Regatta (formerly
>Nation's Cup):
>
>1 Great Britain 7:22.15
>2 Australia 7:25.22
>3 Canada 7:26.37
>4 Ukraine 7:33.46
>5 Belorusse 7:37.58
>6 France 7:43.95
>
>The Great Britain crew was:
>
>Bow Natasha Page (Reading University BC)
>2 Anna Bebington (Rob Roy BC)
>3 Beth Rodford (Thames RC)
>Stroke Alison Knowles (Thames RC)
>Coach Gary Stubbs (Thames RC)
>
>The crew rowed in 'Bryan Richards GM', loaned free by Thames RC.
>
>Well done to all of the crew on a fantastic result and I sincerely
>hope that they move up to an illustrious career in the GB senior
>squad.
>
>James


And that wonderful result was achieved despite some crude political
interference late in the day.

Well done, ladies! Well done, coach! Well done, TRC!

3 Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)



09 Aug 2004 06:29:01
Anton
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

> > I stand by my comments and we should revisit this after the Nations
> > Cup and World Championships. I doubt there will be much to celebrate.
>
> Well, bearing in mind this and some of the other postings last month,
> I think I would have had it brought to my attention had we done badly.

James

I will concede a good result. I did not return here after the worlds
which could not be described a good result.

But the whole thread before was aimed at something quite different. It
concentrated on the lack of development and new faces in the Olympic
team.
There is an enormous gap between the u23 and then the worlds in a non
olympic event and then again a huge leap to Olympic boat classes.

It also, following your comment, debated the speed of the Club eight
at Thames which was soundly beated by these u23 and a non competitive
Worlds 4 at Henley. What angered me about that and promted the
response was quoting a time done in world record condidtions and using
this to suggest that is the norm. 6.28 in flat would be reasonable.
6.28 in those condidtions would not be. You forgot to mention that
they did nearly 7 minutes at the Nat Champs and only just beat another
club crew.

The comparison to gold medal times at the Nat champs compared to
Standard gold medal times for boat classes at the worlds/olympics saw
Molesey was way ahead as one example. You ignored this.

Ride your glory with the U23's. There are some talented individuals
and I understand the bow girl is only 19 which is exactly what the
u23'sis about. But can you get them the next step to World Champs and
then the big step to olympic Boat Classes?

The biggest mountain is yet to be climbed.

However on the one point, an U23 success, I will concede I did not
predict this.


09 Aug 2004 14:47:16
James Elder
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0408090529.11bfac19@posting.google.com >...

Anton

Thanks for this. Just a couple of final points for clarification
after which I suggest we let this rest.

> It also, following your comment, debated the speed of the Club eight
> at Thames which was soundly beated by these u23 and a non competitive
> Worlds 4 at Henley. What angered me about that and promted the
> response was quoting a time done in world record condidtions and using
> this to suggest that is the norm. 6.28 in flat would be reasonable.
> 6.28 in those condidtions would not be.

I should make clear that I was not in Amsterdam and so was not aware
of the conditions. I certainly did not intend to deceive or create a
false impression.

You forgot to mention that
> they did nearly 7 minutes at the Nat Champs and only just beat another
> club crew.

I wrote my posting about Amsterdam before Nat Champs. It is true that
Nat Champs was not the Thames crew's finest hour. Not to make excuses
but it was their third successive weekend of 2k racing (after HRR and
Amsterdam) and, on the afternoon of the final, five of the crew had
already raced and won in other events (coxed four and coxless pair).
I believe (again, I missed Nat Champs) that the conditions for this
race were a brisk headwind.

And incidentally this is not meant to belittle the Vesta/Star & Arrow
composite (the Star & Arrow element was Guin Batten by the way!) who
TRC just, just beat to Gold. They raced fantastically well to cap a
tremendous season for Vesta. All credit to the crew and to Noel
Casey.

A third perspective on the speed of the Thames crew can be given by
looking at Women's Henley, where they clocked 4:47 for 1500m against a
moderate Henley stream while winning their semi-final. My memory is
hazy (I had my eye to the camcorder viewfinder throughout) but I think
the wind conditions for this race were pretty still.

As I said before, Thames absolutely aspire to put out still faster
crews than that eight and we absolutely aspire to help more athletes
make the jump from club to international level and go right to the
very top.

In the meantime, with wins for club members and crews at HWR, HRR, Nat
Champs, Duisberg, Lucerne and now the U23 Worlds, this season has seen
some important steps in the right direction for us.

Leave it there?

James


09 Aug 2004 14:51:20
Anton
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0408090529.11bfac19@posting.google.com >...
> > > I stand by my comments and we should revisit this after the Nations
> > > Cup and World Championships. I doubt there will be much to celebrate.
> >
> > Well, bearing in mind this and some of the other postings last month,
> > I think I would have had it brought to my attention had we done badly.
>
> James
>
> I will concede a good result. I did not return here after the worlds
> which could not be described a good result.
>
> But the whole thread before was aimed at something quite different. It
> concentrated on the lack of development and new faces in the Olympic
> team.
> There is an enormous gap between the u23 and then the worlds in a non
> olympic event and then again a huge leap to Olympic boat classes.
>
> It also, following your comment, debated the speed of the Club eight
> at Thames which was soundly beated by these u23 and a non competitive
> Worlds 4 at Henley. What angered me about that and promted the
> response was quoting a time done in world record condidtions and using
> this to suggest that is the norm. 6.28 in flat would be reasonable.
> 6.28 in those condidtions would not be. You forgot to mention that
> they did nearly 7 minutes at the Nat Champs and only just beat another
> club crew.
>
> The comparison to gold medal times at the Nat champs compared to
> Standard gold medal times for boat classes at the worlds/olympics saw
> Molesey was way ahead as one example. You ignored this.
>
> Ride your glory with the U23's. There are some talented individuals
> and I understand the bow girl is only 19 which is exactly what the
> u23'sis about. But can you get them the next step to World Champs and
> then the big step to olympic Boat Classes?
>
> The biggest mountain is yet to be climbed.
>
> However on the one point, an U23 success, I will concede I did not
> predict this.

And I forgot to say...congratulations


10 Aug 2004 01:40:17
Caroline Gooch
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)


>> You forgot to mention that
> > they did nearly 7 minutes at the Nat Champs and only just beat another
> > club crew.


> I wrote my posting about Amsterdam before Nat Champs. It is true that
> Nat Champs was not the Thames crew's finest hour. Not to make excuses
> but it was their third successive weekend of 2k racing (after HRR and
> Amsterdam) and, on the afternoon of the final, five of the crew had
> already raced and won in other events (coxed four and coxless pair).
> I believe (again, I missed Nat Champs) that the conditions for this
> race were a brisk headwind.

> And incidentally this is not meant to belittle the Vesta/Star & Arrow
> composite (the Star & Arrow element was Guin Batten by the way!) who
> TRC just, just beat to Gold. They raced fantastically well to cap a
> tremendous season for Vesta. All credit to the crew and to Noel
> Casey.

Thank you James. It was a great race. And yes, there were some stiff direct
head gusts during the race, and a bit of swirly head-cross in the mix too,
so the times were nuts, and not easily comparable between races.

Caroline (Vesta cox)











10 Aug 2004 05:53:52
Bec
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0408091351.595b1276@posting.google.com >...
> anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0408090529.11bfac19@posting.google.com>...
> > > > I stand by my comments and we should revisit this after the Nations
> > > > Cup and World Championships. I doubt there will be much to celebrate.
> > >
> > > Well, bearing in mind this and some of the other postings last month,
> > > I think I would have had it brought to my attention had we done badly.
> >
> > James
> >
> > I will concede a good result. I did not return here after the worlds
> > which could not be described a good result.
> >
> > But the whole thread before was aimed at something quite different. It
> > concentrated on the lack of development and new faces in the Olympic
> > team.
> > There is an enormous gap between the u23 and then the worlds in a non
> > olympic event and then again a huge leap to Olympic boat classes.
> >
> > It also, following your comment, debated the speed of the Club eight
> > at Thames which was soundly beated by these u23 and a non competitive
> > Worlds 4 at Henley. What angered me about that and promted the
> > response was quoting a time done in world record condidtions and using
> > this to suggest that is the norm. 6.28 in flat would be reasonable.
> > 6.28 in those condidtions would not be. You forgot to mention that
> > they did nearly 7 minutes at the Nat Champs and only just beat another
> > club crew.
> >
> > The comparison to gold medal times at the Nat champs compared to
> > Standard gold medal times for boat classes at the worlds/olympics saw
> > Molesey was way ahead as one example. You ignored this.
> >
> > Ride your glory with the U23's. There are some talented individuals
> > and I understand the bow girl is only 19 which is exactly what the
> > u23'sis about. But can you get them the next step to World Champs and
> > then the big step to olympic Boat Classes?
> >
> > The biggest mountain is yet to be climbed.
> >
> > However on the one point, an U23 success, I will concede I did not
> > predict this.
>
> And I forgot to say...congratulations


It's not like either of the athletes in the U23 boat are longstanding
Thames members so Thames contribution to their development has been
less significant than some would have us believe. They weren't Thames
members when they rowed as Jr internationals so it's a bit like
Leander trumpeting athletes bought in from elsewhere. For a high
performance centre its success in developing new talent has been
modest at best in spite of what it aspires or pretends to be.


10 Aug 2004 15:38:09
James Elder
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

Hi Bec

A couple of corrections and clarifications

nihullivan@excite.com (Bec) wrote in message
> It's not like either of the athletes in the U23 boat are longstanding
> Thames members so Thames contribution to their development has been
> less significant than some would have us believe.

If you look here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=bd245229.0407211703.38645f7c%40posting.google.com

...you'll see that I was the first person to mention that Alison and
Beth joined Thames in 2003. I also noted their previous clubs, Exeter
University BC and Molesey BC. I'm not hiding anything.

From memory they both formally joined Thames in about June 2003. They
had been based at the club and coached by Gary Stubbs for a fair few
months before that. You would need to ask them why they chose to join
Thames - they were certainly under absolutely no obligation or
pressure to do so.

They weren't Thames
> members when they rowed as Jr internationals so it's a bit like
> Leander trumpeting athletes bought in from elsewhere.

Beth was indeed a junior international in 2000 and 2001, based (I
believe) at Gloucester RC. Again, more than happy to give credit
where it's due.

Alison was NOT a junior international. In fact, I think I'm right in
saying that she won her novice pot at the 2003 Holland Beker while in
the 2003 Under 23 four (while being coached by Gary at TRC).
Everything that she has won this year (Pairs Head; Fours Head; Eights
Head etc) was a first for her.

You would have to ask Beth and Alison whether they think that the
coaching and support that they have received from Thames over the last
16-18 months has helped their development. I sincerely believe it
has.

Cheers

James


11 Aug 2004 05:16:15
Anton
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

jameselder100@excite.co.uk (James Elder) wrote in message news:<bd245229.0408101438.1aff2a9a@posting.google.com >...
> Hi Bec
>
> A couple of corrections and clarifications
>
> nihullivan@excite.com (Bec) wrote in message
> > It's not like either of the athletes in the U23 boat are longstanding
> > Thames members so Thames contribution to their development has been
> > less significant than some would have us believe.
>
> If you look here:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=bd245229.0407211703.38645f7c%40posting.google.com
>
> ...you'll see that I was the first person to mention that Alison and
> Beth joined Thames in 2003. I also noted their previous clubs, Exeter
> University BC and Molesey BC. I'm not hiding anything.
>
> From memory they both formally joined Thames in about June 2003. They
> had been based at the club and coached by Gary Stubbs for a fair few
> months before that. You would need to ask them why they chose to join
> Thames - they were certainly under absolutely no obligation or
> pressure to do so.
>
> They weren't Thames
> > members when they rowed as Jr internationals so it's a bit like
> > Leander trumpeting athletes bought in from elsewhere.
>
> Beth was indeed a junior international in 2000 and 2001, based (I
> believe) at Gloucester RC. Again, more than happy to give credit
> where it's due.
>
> Alison was NOT a junior international. In fact, I think I'm right in
> saying that she won her novice pot at the 2003 Holland Beker while in
> the 2003 Under 23 four (while being coached by Gary at TRC).
> Everything that she has won this year (Pairs Head; Fours Head; Eights
> Head etc) was a first for her.
>
> You would have to ask Beth and Alison whether they think that the
> coaching and support that they have received from Thames over the last
> 16-18 months has helped their development. I sincerely believe it
> has.
>
> Cheers
>
> James

James

The next step is the important step. Perhaps Thames is facing
criticism for the bigger picture in British Rowing. We probably think
that the GB team did well at the Nations Cup. Facts were that many of
the crews there this year were in fact Junior crews who moved to
Poland after Banyoles. But this is how a good international team
should perform.

"The Germans completed their medal haul with top three finishes in 13
of the 19 events. "" World Rowing.

This puts things in perspective.

Gary has indeed done well although I do quiz if the standard was as
high as some years. It will be interesting to see whether the ARA
cultivate his talent or merely skim the best athletes off and suppress
the coaching as has been the case normally.


13 Aug 2004 04:00:53
Bec
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

athletes are sent to Thames to join what passes for a development
path. It helps justify the funding. Most sink without trace. My point
was on balance the results have been ordinary.
And as for the incessant Thames tubthumping, it is exceedingly boring.



anton2468@aol.com (Anton) wrote in message news:<1c847edb.0408110416.4cd81cfe@posting.google.com >...
> jameselder100@excite.co.uk (James Elder) wrote in message news:<bd245229.0408101438.1aff2a9a@posting.google.com>...
> > Hi Bec
> >
> > A couple of corrections and clarifications
> >
> > nihullivan@excite.com (Bec) wrote in message
> > > It's not like either of the athletes in the U23 boat are longstanding
> > > Thames members so Thames contribution to their development has been
> > > less significant than some would have us believe.
> >
> > If you look here:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=bd245229.0407211703.38645f7c%40posting.google.com
> >
> > ...you'll see that I was the first person to mention that Alison and
> > Beth joined Thames in 2003. I also noted their previous clubs, Exeter
> > University BC and Molesey BC. I'm not hiding anything.
> >
> > From memory they both formally joined Thames in about June 2003. They
> > had been based at the club and coached by Gary Stubbs for a fair few
> > months before that. You would need to ask them why they chose to join
> > Thames - they were certainly under absolutely no obligation or
> > pressure to do so.
> >
> > They weren't Thames
> > > members when they rowed as Jr internationals so it's a bit like
> > > Leander trumpeting athletes bought in from elsewhere.
> >
> > Beth was indeed a junior international in 2000 and 2001, based (I
> > believe) at Gloucester RC. Again, more than happy to give credit
> > where it's due.
> >
> > Alison was NOT a junior international. In fact, I think I'm right in
> > saying that she won her novice pot at the 2003 Holland Beker while in
> > the 2003 Under 23 four (while being coached by Gary at TRC).
> > Everything that she has won this year (Pairs Head; Fours Head; Eights
> > Head etc) was a first for her.
> >
> > You would have to ask Beth and Alison whether they think that the
> > coaching and support that they have received from Thames over the last
> > 16-18 months has helped their development. I sincerely believe it
> > has.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > James
>
> James
>
> The next step is the important step. Perhaps Thames is facing
> criticism for the bigger picture in British Rowing. We probably think
> that the GB team did well at the Nations Cup. Facts were that many of
> the crews there this year were in fact Junior crews who moved to
> Poland after Banyoles. But this is how a good international team
> should perform.
>
> "The Germans completed their medal haul with top three finishes in 13
> of the 19 events. "" World Rowing.
>
> This puts things in perspective.
>
> Gary has indeed done well although I do quiz if the standard was as
> high as some years. It will be interesting to see whether the ARA
> cultivate his talent or merely skim the best athletes off and suppress
> the coaching as has been the case normally.


13 Aug 2004 12:13:04
Jon Anderson
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

Bec wrote:
> athletes are sent to Thames to join what passes for a development
> path. It helps justify the funding. Most sink without trace. My point
> was on balance the results have been ordinary.

Are there specific problems, or solutions, you have in mind, because if
so then state them - otherwise it looks like an anti-Thames rant.

I wish my club was as shit as Thames are, to be honest. :)

Jon
--
Durge: jon@durge.org http://users.durge.org/~jon/
OnStream: accounts@rowing.org.uk http://www.rowing.org.uk/

[ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]


15 Aug 2004 02:46:22
James Elder
Re: Under 23 Worlds results ( was Swiss Thames Entry)

nihullivan@excite.com (Bec) wrote in message news:<69ba9f7b.0408130300.fe3dd79@posting.google.com >...
> athletes are sent to Thames to join what passes for a development
> path. It helps justify the funding. Most sink without trace. My point
> was on balance the results have been ordinary.
> And as for the incessant Thames tubthumping, it is exceedingly boring.

What funding???

The professional coaching that Thames has from Gary is paid for by
Thames.
Not the ARA, Thames.
And in case you think I'm using weasel words, it is not reimbursed,
cross-funded or anything like that.
Thames pays for it - I know, I've signed some of the cheques.
Some of that professional coaching goes on athletes not from the club
(eg most recently Page and Bebington). That's the rules of the HPP.

Thames is a net financial contributor to British international rowing
not the other way round.

In 1996-2000 the HPP worked well. Miles Forbes-Thomas worked with
Elise Laverick, Alison Mowbray and Tracy Langlands. The club then
supported the British eight to Olympic qualification when everyone
else had given up on them.
In 2000-2002 it did not work well, leading to a major rethink.
In 2003 and 2004 it is showing some signs of starting to function well
again.

But throughout this, it was Thames itself and not the ARA that funded
and supported the HPP.

> And as for the incessant Thames tubthumping, it is exceedingly boring.

So, for me, is the incessant knocking.

You'll notice that more or less every post I've written on this
subject has been to correct factual inaccuracies - your own included.

I'm sorry you find it boring. I'd love to drop the subject but I'll
only do so when people stop writing things that are mistaken and
downright untrue about my club.

James