28 Mar 2007 11:26:11
mpruscoe
Muppets on the tideway

An eight of ours, that was out after 8pm, was told off by a coaching
launch driver from a Putney club for being in the correct position.

It seems that being correctly lit, and well over on the starboard side,
rowing with the incoming tide, he was "in danger of being hit by a launch".

I guess the launch driver is expecting everyone to be incorrectly
following the racing line, leaving that side of the river free from him
to drive his launch in the wrong direction, without looking where he is
going...


And these people think that they're safe to go out at night...


28 Mar 2007 05:19:49
Jonny
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 28, 6:26 pm, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> It seems that being correctly lit, and well over on the starboard side,
> rowing with the incoming tide, he was "in danger of being hit by a launch".
>
Wouldn't you only be in danger of being hit by a launch if the driver
of said tin-fish failed to obey the basic rule to give way AND didn't
have any lights of his own?

Or was he trying to warn the crew that he was such a bad driver that
despite seeing them he might hit them anyway?



28 Mar 2007 07:28:11
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 28 Mar, 11:26, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> An eight of ours, that was out after 8pm, was told off by a coaching
> launch driver from a Putney club for being in the correct position.
>
> It seems that being correctly lit, and well over on the starboard side,
> rowing with the incoming tide, he was "in danger of being hit by a launch".
>
> I guess the launch driver is expecting everyone to be incorrectly
> following the racing line, leaving that side of the river free from him
> to drive his launch in the wrong direction, without looking where he is
> going...
>
> And these people think that they're safe to go out at night...

I trust you've either contacted the club concerned to let them know
they need to refresh their coach education, or reported it to the
TRRC..?



28 Mar 2007 16:14:26
mpruscoe
Re: Muppets on the tideway

grahamredman@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 28 Mar, 11:26, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> An eight of ours, that was out after 8pm, was told off by a coaching
>> launch driver from a Putney club for being in the correct position.
>>
>> It seems that being correctly lit, and well over on the starboard side,
>> rowing with the incoming tide, he was "in danger of being hit by a launch".
>>
>> I guess the launch driver is expecting everyone to be incorrectly
>> following the racing line, leaving that side of the river free from him
>> to drive his launch in the wrong direction, without looking where he is
>> going...
>>
>> And these people think that they're safe to go out at night...
>
> I trust you've either contacted the club concerned to let them know
> they need to refresh their coach education, or reported it to the
> TRRC..?
>

Unfortunately the cox wasn't able to identify them.


28 Mar 2007 08:49:27
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 28, 3:26 am, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> An eight of ours, that was out after 8pm, was told off by a coaching
> launch driver from a Putney club for being in the correct position.
>
> It seems that being correctly lit, and well over on the starboard side,
> rowing with the incoming tide, he was "in danger of being hit by a launch".
>
> I guess the launch driver is expecting everyone to be incorrectly
> following the racing line, leaving that side of the river free from him
> to drive his launch in the wrong direction, without looking where he is
> going...
>
> And these people think that they're safe to go out at night...

Does this mean that you folks drive on the wrong side of the road, but
row on the right side of the river? [;o)

One must always remember that, no good deed goes unpunished.

- Paul Smith



28 Mar 2007 09:08:52
cruiser
Re: Muppets on the tideway

i must be reading this wrong, you all seem to have jumped to
conclusions, are you all from the tideway or stopping off for the
horr? it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
the centre. coming back downstream against the current you should be
on starboard or "surrey" side between hammersmith and putney bridge
having crossed over from port at the crossing point. if you were
rowing below, downstream of putney and fulham rail bridge but with the
incoming tide then you should be on port or "middlesex" side just like
you would be on starboard if you were going the other way. where you
row depends on the tide, and rules for the tideway are most often
unique to the tideway, i doubt someone from a putney club would get
something like that wrong, at putney, but if you had seen who it was
all faults would be realised when it was reported, but you dont know
who it was. as i said maybe i am reading this all wrong.






28 Mar 2007 12:34:44
KC
Re: Muppets on the tideway

cruiser wrote:
> i must be reading this wrong, you all seem to have jumped to
> conclusions, are you all from the tideway or stopping off for the
> horr? it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
> where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
> hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> the centre. coming back downstream against the current you should be
> on starboard or "surrey" side between hammersmith and putney bridge
> having crossed over from port at the crossing point. if you were
> rowing below, downstream of putney and fulham rail bridge but with the
> incoming tide then you should be on port or "middlesex" side just like
> you would be on starboard if you were going the other way. where you
> row depends on the tide, and rules for the tideway are most often
> unique to the tideway, i doubt someone from a putney club would get
> something like that wrong, at putney, but if you had seen who it was
> all faults would be realised when it was reported, but you dont know
> who it was. as i said maybe i am reading this all wrong.

With all those rules, it's very likely both crew and coach were wrong,
anyway! ;^)

-KC


28 Mar 2007 17:46:59
mpruscoe
Re: Muppets on the tideway

cruiser wrote:
> i doubt someone from a putney club would get
> something like that wrong

I guess you don't spend too much time around the tideway then ;)


28 Mar 2007 20:41:45
liz
Re: Muppets on the tideway


"cruiser" <BIG_PENN@fsmail.net > wrote in message
news:1175098132.094735.129270@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

> "if you > where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road
> and
> hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> the centre.



WRONG - you're supposed to be on the starboard side of the channel - NOT in
the centre




28 Mar 2007 13:06:38
James Elder
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 28 Mar, 16:14, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> grahamred...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> > I trust you've either contacted the club concerned to let them know
> > they need to refresh their coach education, or reported it to the
> > TRRC..?
>
> Unfortunately the cox wasn't able to identify them.

So how do you know it was a Putney club? Was it just obvious from the
context?




28 Mar 2007 13:07:04
J Flory
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 28, 12:08 pm, "cruiser" <BIG_P...@fsmail.net > wrote:
> i must be reading this wrong, you all seem to have jumped to
> conclusions, are you all from the tideway or stopping off for the
> horr? it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
> where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
> hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> the centre. coming back downstream against the current you should be
> on starboard or "surrey" side between hammersmith and putney bridge
> having crossed over from port at the crossing point. if you were
> rowing below, downstream of putney and fulham rail bridge but with the
> incoming tide then you should be on port or "middlesex" side just like
> you would be on starboard if you were going the other way. where you
> row depends on the tide, and rules for the tideway are most often
> unique to the tideway, i doubt someone from a putney club would get
> something like that wrong, at putney, but if you had seen who it was
> all faults would be realised when it was reported, but you dont know
> who it was. as i said maybe i am reading this all wrong.

Phew!!!! And I thought finding my way through Tokyo solo on a
motorcycle without knowing Japanese was tricky!

When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?



28 Mar 2007 21:48:29
mpruscoe
Re: Muppets on the tideway

James Elder wrote:
> On 28 Mar, 16:14, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> grahamred...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>>> I trust you've either contacted the club concerned to let them know
>>> they need to refresh their coach education, or reported it to the
>>> TRRC..?
>> Unfortunately the cox wasn't able to identify them.
>
> So how do you know it was a Putney club? Was it just obvious from the
> context?
>
>
All the non-Putney clubs that I saw out had headed back upriver by that
time.


28 Mar 2007 13:51:54
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 28, 12:41 pm, "liz" <liz(nospam)@twrc.org > wrote:
> "cruiser" <BIG_P...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1175098132.094735.129270@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > "if you > where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road
> > and
> > hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> > from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> > the centre.
>
> WRONG - you're supposed to be on the starboard side of the channel - NOT in
> the centre

And so it begins! LOL



28 Mar 2007 21:54:31
Henry Law
Re: Muppets on the tideway

J Flory wrote:

> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?

You aren't going to believe what the answer is. And when someone tells
you, ask (a) how crews know that the tide has turned; and (b) what about
the situation where the tide turns at slightly different moments in
different places.

--

Henry Law Manchester, England


28 Mar 2007 22:02:09
mpruscoe
Re: Muppets on the tideway

Henry Law wrote:
> J Flory wrote:
>
>> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?
>
> You aren't going to believe what the answer is. And when someone tells
> you, ask (a) how crews know that the tide has turned; and (b) what about
> the situation where the tide turns at slightly different moments in
> different places.
>
and it turns at the sides before it turns in the middle of the river!


28 Mar 2007 14:11:03
Mike Sullivan
Re: Muppets on the tideway


"Henry Law" <news@lawshouse.org > wrote in message
news:1175115245.92690.0@despina.uk.clara.net...
>J Flory wrote:
>
>> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?
>
> You aren't going to believe what the answer is. And when someone tells
> you, ask (a) how crews know that the tide has turned; and (b) what about
> the situation where the tide turns at slightly different moments in
> different places.

huh???? you mean J Flory wasn't joking?





28 Mar 2007 14:30:12
J Flory
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu >
wrote:
> "Henry Law" <n...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
>
> news:1175115245.92690.0@despina.uk.clara.net...
>
> >J Flory wrote:
>
> >> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?
>
> > You aren't going to believe what the answer is. And when someone tells
> > you, ask (a) how crews know that the tide has turned; and (b) what about
> > the situation where the tide turns at slightly different moments in
> > different places.
>
> huh???? you mean J Flory wasn't joking?

Occasionally I'm serious. And I was wondering exactly that. Must be
chaos at slack tide. Actually a wave of chaos must propagate as the
tide change moves upstream.




28 Mar 2007 22:56:39
mpruscoe
Re: Muppets on the tideway

J Flory wrote:
> On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu>
> wrote:
>> "Henry Law" <n...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1175115245.92690.0@despina.uk.clara.net...
>>
>>> J Flory wrote:
>>>> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?
>>> You aren't going to believe what the answer is. And when someone tells
>>> you, ask (a) how crews know that the tide has turned; and (b) what about
>>> the situation where the tide turns at slightly different moments in
>>> different places.
>> huh???? you mean J Flory wasn't joking?
>
> Occasionally I'm serious. And I was wondering exactly that. Must be
> chaos at slack tide. Actually a wave of chaos must propagate as the
> tide change moves upstream.
>

Yes.

The easy solution is to let someone else decide that the tide has turned
and then follow them :)


28 Mar 2007 23:29:38
liz
Re: Muppets on the tideway


> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?
>

it's called "working the slacks"and dates back to the time of Henry VII (I
think) - rowing craft have always done it because it's safer and easier to
take the big corners on the inside when rowing against the stream, (there
are lots of moored boats and shallow areas on the Tideway that are best
avoided)

http://safety.thames-rrc.org/tideway/headsnav2006.html

liz




28 Mar 2007 16:42:23
bookie
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 28 Mar, 17:08, "cruiser" <BIG_P...@fsmail.net > wrote:
> i must be reading this wrong, you all seem to have jumped to
> conclusions, are you all from the tideway or stopping off for the
> horr? it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
> where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
> hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> the centre.

er...no, if the tide is coming in and you are going towards
hammersmith from putney onthe incoming tide then you have to be on the
starboard side of the midline of the river (starboard imagining you
are coxing it say, so the right side of the boat, or bow side) so kind
of on the middlesex side of the centre line of the river, not right in
the centre as was previously done/assumed.

think you need to read your navigation rules again, nowhere as far as
I can tell does it say you can row down the centre of the river, even
if you are going with the flow of the tide.

bookie



28 Mar 2007 16:46:14
bookie
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 28 Mar, 22:56, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> J Flory wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu>
> > wrote:
> >> "Henry Law" <n...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1175115245.92690.0@despina.uk.clara.net...
>
> >>> J Flory wrote:
> >>>> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?
> >>> You aren't going to believe what the answer is. And when someone tells
> >>> you, ask (a) how crews know that the tide has turned; and (b) what about
> >>> the situation where the tide turns at slightly different moments in
> >>> different places.
> >> huh???? you mean J Flory wasn't joking?
>
> > Occasionally I'm serious. And I was wondering exactly that. Must be
> > chaos at slack tide. Actually a wave of chaos must propagate as the
> > tide change moves upstream.
>
> Yes.
>
> The easy solution is to let someone else decide that the tide has turned
> and then follow them :)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

and keep a damn good lookout at all times anyway, particularly if you
have no coach to keep a look out for you

do you want me to go into how a sculler starting from putney on an
incoming tide could go faster than the turn of the tide and find
themselves up at chiswick on what is still an outgoing tide, and all
the chaos that can then occur, or shall i just leave it?



28 Mar 2007 17:03:24
Mike Sullivan
Re: Muppets on the tideway


"bookie" <emily_booker@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175125574.271119.51780@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On 28 Mar, 22:56, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> J Flory wrote:
>> > On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu>
>> > wrote:
>> >> "Henry Law" <n...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message

snip

> do you want me to go into how a sculler starting from putney on an
> incoming tide could go faster than the turn of the tide and find
> themselves up at chiswick on what is still an outgoing tide, and all
> the chaos that can then occur, or shall i just leave it?

wow. This is so... so.... so... English!

I enjoy the idea of it. I get a mental picture of a few hundred years of
watermen verbally abusing novices who didn't quite get the tide
turn in the right spot or if they did, it doesn't matter because
the 'old guy' knows better anyway....

It's a perfect formula for some people to 'never get it right' and
serve as whipping post for the rest of the river!! awesome.

I love our sport.

Mike




28 Mar 2007 17:14:28
bookie
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 29 Mar, 01:03, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "bookie" <emily_boo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175125574.271119.51780@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On 28 Mar, 22:56, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> J Flory wrote:
> >> > On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> "Henry Law" <n...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
>
> snip
>
> > do you want me to go into how a sculler starting from putney on an
> > incoming tide could go faster than the turn of the tide and find
> > themselves up at chiswick on what is still an outgoing tide, and all
> > the chaos that can then occur, or shall i just leave it?
>
> wow. This is so... so.... so... English!
>
> I enjoy the idea of it. I get a mental picture of a few hundred years of
> watermen verbally abusing novices who didn't quite get the tide
> turn in the right spot or if they did, it doesn't matter because
> the 'old guy' knows better anyway....
>
> It's a perfect formula for some people to 'never get it right' and
> serve as whipping post for the rest of the river!! awesome.
>
> I love our sport.
>
> Mike

'complicated' is something of an understatement when describing the
rules of the tideway stretch between richmond lock and putney bridge,
and yes, you sometimes feel you can never get it right



29 Mar 2007 00:31:15
James Elder
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 29 Mar, 01:03, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "bookie" <emily_boo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175125574.271119.51780@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On 28 Mar, 22:56, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> J Flory wrote:
> >> > On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> "Henry Law" <n...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
>
> snip
>
> > do you want me to go into how a sculler starting from putney on an
> > incoming tide could go faster than the turn of the tide and find
> > themselves up at chiswick on what is still an outgoing tide, and all
> > the chaos that can then occur, or shall i just leave it?
>
> wow. This is so... so.... so... English!
>
> I enjoy the idea of it. I get a mental picture of a few hundred years of
> watermen verbally abusing novices who didn't quite get the tide
> turn in the right spot or if they did, it doesn't matter because
> the 'old guy' knows better anyway....
>
> It's a perfect formula for some people to 'never get it right' and
> serve as whipping post for the rest of the river!! awesome.
>
> I love our sport.
>
> Mike

The reason we do it and put up with the complications is that the
alternative (a straightforward application of the starboardhand rule
at all states of the tide) would be a hell of a lot worse.

p7-18 of this document http://www.portoflondon.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/rowing_code_-_printers.pdf
sets it all out in more detail than you could possibly want.



29 Mar 2007 12:07:12
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: Muppets on the tideway

James Elder wrote:
> http://www.portoflondon.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/rowing_code_-_printers.pdf

Is there rowing downriver from Putney?


--
E. Dronkert


29 Mar 2007 03:19:10
James Elder
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 29 Mar, 11:07, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:

> Is there rowing downriver from Putney?

Nothing in the Wandsworth, Battersea, Chelsea, Westminster and City
of London reaches.

But, 10km or more downriver (the other side of Tower Bridge) you reach
Greenwich, home of Globe Rowing Club and Curlew Rowing Club. On the
opposite bank is Poplar, Blackwall & District Rowing Club.

These clubs have my admiration, as the river there is dauntingly wide
and is home to some seriously large vessels.



29 Mar 2007 12:28:26
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: Muppets on the tideway

James Elder wrote:
> Nothing in the Wandsworth, Battersea, Chelsea, Westminster and City
> of London reaches.
>
> But, 10km or more downriver (the other side of Tower Bridge) you reach
> Greenwich, home of Globe Rowing Club and Curlew Rowing Club. On the
> opposite bank is Poplar, Blackwall & District Rowing Club.

Ah, right. But do the other clubs ever go beyond Putney bridge (for an
outing, not just to turn around)? Nothing in the PLA PDF; for lack of
special navigation rules, or because not permitted for or not used by
rec. rowing shells?


--
E. Dronkert


29 Mar 2007 03:53:13
James Elder
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 29 Mar, 11:28, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:

> Ah, right. But do the other clubs ever go beyond Putney bridge (for an
> outing, not just to turn around)? Nothing in the PLA PDF; for lack of
> special navigation rules, or because not permitted for or not used by
> rec. rowing shells?

Below Putney, normal navigation rules (keep right) apply.

The Putney clubs will sometimes go that way to avoid other crews or to
get more favourable wind conditions. But not many crews do so and
very few people go there at low tide. Its much easier to keep out of
the way of each other and of other river users. Its a slight puzzle
why more people don't go that way.

The furthest the Putney clubs tend to go is Hungerford Bridge
(Westminster). It is quite cool to sit next to the Houses of
Parliament when Big Ben sounds. I also used to enjoy being a tour
guide when coxing crews with people new to London ("On your right -
M15", "On your left - MI6")



29 Mar 2007 04:17:54
Pete
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 28 Mar, 21:07, "J Flory" <john.fl...@snet.net > wrote:
>
> Phew!!!! And I thought finding my way through Tokyo solo on a
> motorcycle without knowing Japanese was tricky!
>
> When the tide changes does everyone have to switch sides?

Not at the moment. Currently you change sides a bit after low tide and
a bit before high tide, this is due to the amount of landwater coming
down. But basically you're right, which makes life a bit interesting
when the water's still and no-one knows where they're meant to be, and
especially interesting when you are rowing faster than the tide
changes (it does so at different times along the river). Or when
they're playing with the Thames barrier so the flow changes direction
5 times in an hour.

plus a bit of added fun due to the fact that the correct side of the
river when you're going against the stream depends on where you are so
there are crossing points, plus a bit more fun with the fact that
below Putney and above Isleworth these rules don't apply and you
follow normal river rules regardless of the stream.

Pete



29 Mar 2007 04:19:23
Pete
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 29 Mar, 01:03, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@SNIPslac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> I enjoy the idea of it. I get a mental picture of a few hundred years of
> watermen verbally abusing novices who didn't quite get the tide
> turn in the right spot or if they did, it doesn't matter because
> the 'old guy' knows better anyway....

They're called Quintin BC.

Pete



29 Mar 2007 12:33:00
mpruscoe
Re: Muppets on the tideway

James Elder wrote:
> On 29 Mar, 11:28, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Ah, right. But do the other clubs ever go beyond Putney bridge (for an
>> outing, not just to turn around)? Nothing in the PLA PDF; for lack of
>> special navigation rules, or because not permitted for or not used by
>> rec. rowing shells?
>
> Below Putney, normal navigation rules (keep right) apply.
>
> The Putney clubs will sometimes go that way to avoid other crews or to
> get more favourable wind conditions. But not many crews do so and
> very few people go there at low tide. Its much easier to keep out of
> the way of each other and of other river users. Its a slight puzzle
> why more people don't go that way.
>
Because most people like to row out against the stream for the first
part of the outing and back with the stream, and the tide flows out for
two-thirds of the time? On the incoming tide with the prevailing wind
direction the conditions can get unpleasant down there as the tide rises?

It's a less rower-friendly piece of river (although there are fewer
coaching launches) - it's wider and has vertical walls on both sides
unlike most of the regular rowing area, more commercial traffic who
aren't used to rowers, no speed limit below Wandsworth Bridge, and more
obstacles to hit.


29 Mar 2007 09:51:22
KC
Re: Muppets on the tideway

James Elder wrote:

>
> The reason we do it and put up with the complications is that the
> alternative (a straightforward application of the starboardhand rule

WOAH!!! Stop the presses... shouldn't that be "bowsidehand"? I mean,
British rowers don't know the meaning of "starboard", right?

;-)

-KC

> at all states of the tide) would be a hell of a lot worse.
>
> p7-18 of this document http://www.portoflondon.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/rowing_code_-_printers.pdf
> sets it all out in more detail than you could possibly want.
>


29 Mar 2007 18:24:39
liz
Re: Muppets on the tideway


"Mike Sullivan" <sul@SNIPslac.stanford.edu > wrote in message
news:euevoc$qh$1@news.Stanford.EDU...

> I enjoy the idea of it. I get a mental picture of a few hundred years of
> watermen verbally abusing novices who didn't quite get the tide
> turn in the right spot or if they did, it doesn't matter because
> the 'old guy' knows better anyway....


mike, you're more right than you know... as this extract i found from an
article entitled "THE AMATEUR ROWING OF THE PRESENT DAY" which appeared in
the Penny Illustrated Paper on 14th January 1871, illustrates

http://www.twrc.rowing.org.uk/slug/1871navigation.jpg


liz




29 Mar 2007 10:58:04
Mike Sullivan
Re: Muppets on the tideway


"liz" <liz(nospam)@twrc.org > wrote in message
news:460bf657$0$19246$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "Mike Sullivan" <sul@SNIPslac.stanford.edu> wrote in message
> news:euevoc$qh$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
>
>> I enjoy the idea of it. I get a mental picture of a few hundred years
>> of
>> watermen verbally abusing novices who didn't quite get the tide
>> turn in the right spot or if they did, it doesn't matter because
>> the 'old guy' knows better anyway....
>
>
> mike, you're more right than you know... as this extract i found from an
> article entitled "THE AMATEUR ROWING OF THE PRESENT DAY" which appeared in
> the Penny Illustrated Paper on 14th January 1871, illustrates
>
> http://www.twrc.rowing.org.uk/slug/1871navigation.jpg

I love it.

Belongs in the tabletop book I think we ought to put together:

"The illustrated history of the boathouse bitch"







29 Mar 2007 14:34:25
Sarah
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 29, 11:07 am, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
> James Elder wrote:
> >http://www.portoflondon.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/rowing_code_-_printers.pdf
>
> Is there rowing downriver from Putney?
>
> --
> E. Dronkert

yes - but there is more traffic, and the walls of the river are
steeper so less easy to get out. Can't comment for how often the
Putney clubs go downstream (James might be able to) but I've only been
below the Putney bridges after the main head races (oh and that time
everyone nearly sank waiting for the vets head)



29 Mar 2007 15:04:08
Sarah
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 28, 5:08 pm, "cruiser" <BIG_P...@fsmail.net > wrote:
> i must be reading this wrong, you all seem to have jumped to
> conclusions, are you all from the tideway or stopping off for the
> horr?

I believe MP Ruscoe is from one of the Hammersmith clubs....

> it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
> where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
> hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> the centre.

that would be on the Surrey side of centre - your starboard side
(coxes right, steersmans left)
so you can pass all vessels port to port. (standard maritime col regs)

coming back downstream against the current you should be
> on starboard or "surrey" side
> between hammersmith and putney bridge
> having crossed over from port at the crossing point.

actually we don't call that Starboard (as it would be confusing) -
that's the 'Inshore Zone'

if you were
> rowing below, downstream of putney and fulham rail bridge but with the
> incoming tide then you should be on port

no wrong again - you're still on YOUR STARBOARD side of the fairway
(fairway is the channel in middle of river)

that's the confusing thing I find about the whole port / starboard
stations - it's relative to you. 2 crews going in opposite directions
on the surrey side of centre, (ie heading head to head) one boat is on
his correct starboard station, the other boat is on the incorrect port
station.

anway, below the Putney bridges, it's standard right hand rule,
shouldn't be anywhere near the middle of the river - at the edges
(close as practicable), with the bowside blades near the bank at all
times, whether going with or against the tide

> or "middlesex" side just like
> you would be on starboard if you were going the other way.

> where you
> row depends on the tide, and rules for the tideway are most often
> unique to the tideway, i doubt someone from a putney club would get
> something like that wrong, at putney,

oh boy we do all get it wrong - so bad that the local cruisers ganged
up on us and got us all into trouble with the PLA. So they had an
independent survey (by the Salvage Association) now we have a rule
book (which James posted the link for) which the Thames Regional
Rowing Council (TRRC) agreed with the PLA. We also have a reporting
proceedure, designed to help clubs work out who is a fault and how to
correct it.

> but if you had seen who it was
> all faults would be realised when it was reported, but you dont know
> who it was. as i said maybe i am reading this all wrong.

the way I usually explain our rules, especially the bit about the
Inshore Zone and the way the directions change according to the tide,
is that we have a special rowing lane - (it's gradually being marked
by buoys so it gets easier to visualise this) bit like a bus lane on a
road. In the mornings, it's going into town, so the buses can skip the
traffic, then in the evening, it goes the otherway out of town, so the
buses can zoom past again.

except 'morning = tide rising' and 'evening = tide falling'

When we're not using the special bus lane (going out of town in the
morning) we have to go with the rest of the traffic, they're driving
on the right hand side of the road. They don't change direction at
all. So in the evening if we're not using the special lane, we go in
the normal right hand lane.
You've just got to imagine there is a white line in the middle of the
road (or yellow if you're American!) - traffic is separated by that.

(did we mention that the tide takes 4 and bit hours to come in and
about 7.5 to go out?)

let's hope Chris George isn't reading this....



29 Mar 2007 15:11:03
Sarah
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 29, 11:04 pm, "Sarah" <s.gardi...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Mar 28, 5:08 pm, "cruiser" <BIG_P...@fsmail.net> wrote:
>
> > i must be reading this wrong, you all seem to have jumped to
> > conclusions, are you all from the tideway or stopping off for the
> > horr?
>
> I believe MP Ruscoe is from one of the Hammersmith clubs....
>
> > it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
> > where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
> > hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> > from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> > the centre.
>
> that would be on the Surrey side of centre - your starboard side
> (coxes right, steersmans left)
> so you can pass all vessels port to port. (standard maritime col regs)
>
> coming back downstream against the current you should be
>
> > on starboard or "surrey" side
> > between hammersmith and putney bridge
> > having crossed over from port at the crossing point.
>
> actually we don't call that Starboard (as it would be confusing) -
> that's the 'Inshore Zone'
>
> if you were
>
> > rowing below, downstream of putney and fulham rail bridge but with the
> > incoming tide then you should be on port
>
> no wrong again - you're still on YOUR STARBOARD side of the fairway
> (fairway is the channel in middle of river)
>
> that's the confusing thing I find about the whole port / starboard
> stations - it's relative to you. 2 crews going in opposite directions
> on the surrey side of centre, (ie heading head to head) one boat is on
> his correct starboard station, the other boat is on the incorrect port
> station.
>
> anway, below the Putney bridges, it's standard right hand rule,
> shouldn't be anywhere near the middle of the river - at the edges
> (close as practicable), with the bowside blades near the bank at all
> times, whether going with or against the tide
>
> > or "middlesex" side just like
> > you would be on starboard if you were going the other way.
> > where you
> > row depends on the tide, and rules for the tideway are most often
> > unique to the tideway, i doubt someone from a putney club would get
> > something like that wrong, at putney,
>
> oh boy we do all get it wrong - so bad that the local cruisers ganged
> up on us and got us all into trouble with the PLA. So they had an
> independent survey (by the Salvage Association) now we have a rule
> book (which James posted the link for) which the Thames Regional
> Rowing Council (TRRC) agreed with the PLA. We also have a reporting
> proceedure, designed to help clubs work out who is a fault and how to
> correct it.
>
> > but if you had seen who it was
> > all faults would be realised when it was reported, but you dont know
> > who it was. as i said maybe i am reading this all wrong.
>
> the way I usually explain our rules, especially the bit about the
> Inshore Zone and the way the directions change according to the tide,
> is that we have a special rowing lane - (it's gradually being marked
> by buoys so it gets easier to visualise this) bit like a bus lane on a
> road. In the mornings, it's going into town, so the buses can skip the
> traffic, then in the evening, it goes the otherway out of town, so the
> buses can zoom past again.
>
> except 'morning = tide rising' and 'evening = tide falling'
>
> When we're not using the special bus lane (going out of town in the
> morning) we have to go with the rest of the traffic, they're driving
> on the right hand side of the road. They don't change direction at
> all. So in the evening if we're not using the special lane, we go in
> the normal right hand lane.
> You've just got to imagine there is a white line in the middle of the
> road (or yellow if you're American!) - traffic is separated by that.
>
> (did we mention that the tide takes 4 and bit hours to come in and
> about 7.5 to go out?)
>
> let's hope Chris George isn't reading this....

curse google groups and it's new format.... missed the 'newer' link
pointing at the rest of the thread...



29 Mar 2007 15:17:57
James Elder
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 29 Mar, 12:33, mpruscoe <mprus...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Because most people like to row out against the stream for the first
> part of the outing and back with the stream, and the tide flows out for
> two-thirds of the time? On the incoming tide with the prevailing wind
> direction the conditions can get unpleasant down there as the tide rises?
>
> It's a less rower-friendly piece of river (although there are fewer
> coaching launches) - it's wider and has vertical walls on both sides
> unlike most of the regular rowing area, more commercial traffic who
> aren't used to rowers, no speed limit below Wandsworth Bridge, and more
> obstacles to hit.

I think you've given all the (perhaps legitimate) reasons that people
have for not doing it. But in certain conditions and with experienced
crews, it's sometimes a much better option.




29 Mar 2007 16:23:30
bookie
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On 29 Mar, 23:04, "Sarah" <s.gardi...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Mar 28, 5:08 pm, "cruiser" <BIG_P...@fsmail.net> wrote:
>
> > i must be reading this wrong, you all seem to have jumped to
> > conclusions, are you all from the tideway or stopping off for the
> > horr?
>
> I believe MP Ruscoe is from one of the Hammersmith clubs....
>
> > it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
> > where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
> > hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
> > from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
> > the centre.
>
> that would be on the Surrey side of centre - your starboard side
> (coxes right, steersmans left)
> so you can pass all vessels port to port. (standard maritime col regs)
>
> coming back downstream against the current you should be
>
> > on starboard or "surrey" side
> > between hammersmith and putney bridge
> > having crossed over from port at the crossing point.
>
> actually we don't call that Starboard (as it would be confusing) -
> that's the 'Inshore Zone'
>
> if you were
>
> > rowing below, downstream of putney and fulham rail bridge but with the
> > incoming tide then you should be on port
>
> no wrong again - you're still on YOUR STARBOARD side of the fairway
> (fairway is the channel in middle of river)
>
> that's the confusing thing I find about the whole port / starboard
> stations - it's relative to you. 2 crews going in opposite directions
> on the surrey side of centre, (ie heading head to head) one boat is on
> his correct starboard station, the other boat is on the incorrect port
> station.
>
> anway, below the Putney bridges, it's standard right hand rule,
> shouldn't be anywhere near the middle of the river - at the edges
> (close as practicable), with the bowside blades near the bank at all
> times, whether going with or against the tide
>
> > or "middlesex" side just like
> > you would be on starboard if you were going the other way.
> > where you
> > row depends on the tide, and rules for the tideway are most often
> > unique to the tideway, i doubt someone from a putney club would get
> > something like that wrong, at putney,
>
> oh boy we do all get it wrong - so bad that the local cruisers ganged
> up on us and got us all into trouble with the PLA. So they had an
> independent survey (by the Salvage Association) now we have a rule
> book (which James posted the link for) which the Thames Regional
> Rowing Council (TRRC) agreed with the PLA. We also have a reporting
> proceedure, designed to help clubs work out who is a fault and how to
> correct it.
>
> > but if you had seen who it was
> > all faults would be realised when it was reported, but you dont know
> > who it was. as i said maybe i am reading this all wrong.
>
> the way I usually explain our rules, especially the bit about the
> Inshore Zone and the way the directions change according to the tide,
> is that we have a special rowing lane - (it's gradually being marked
> by buoys so it gets easier to visualise this) bit like a bus lane on a
> road. In the mornings, it's going into town, so the buses can skip the
> traffic, then in the evening, it goes the otherway out of town, so the
> buses can zoom past again.
>
> except 'morning = tide rising' and 'evening = tide falling'
>
> When we're not using the special bus lane (going out of town in the
> morning) we have to go with the rest of the traffic, they're driving
> on the right hand side of the road. They don't change direction at
> all. So in the evening if we're not using the special lane, we go in
> the normal right hand lane.
> You've just got to imagine there is a white line in the middle of the
> road (or yellow if you're American!) - traffic is separated by that.
>
> (did we mention that the tide takes 4 and bit hours to come in and
> about 7.5 to go out?)
>
> let's hope Chris George isn't reading this....

no, that has confused me even more now, thought I had got it all
worked out beforehand, now i don't know what is what or who i am or
where I am going.

mention of 'inshore zone' has completely thrown me also, can't i just
stick with idea of of staying starboard side of centre line (as in
over onto bowside) when with the tide and staying inside the buoys and
bends when against the tide? that is what i thought it was.

bookie



30 Mar 2007 09:16:35
David Biddulph
Re: Muppets on the tideway

"Sarah" <s.gardiner@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175205848.310267.159420@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 28, 5:08 pm, "cruiser" <BIG_P...@fsmail.net> wrote:
...
>> it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you. if you
>> where upstream of putney road bridge, i.e between putney road and
>> hammersmith and beyond, rowing with the stream, i.e water is going
>> from putney bridge to hammersmith and beyond your supposed to be in
>> the centre.
>
> that would be on the Surrey side of centre - your starboard side
> (coxes right, steersmans left)
> so you can pass all vessels port to port. (standard maritime col regs)

If you're going with the flood tide from Putney towards Hammersmith, the
starboard side is *Middlesex*, isn't it, Sarah? [But of course if we've
confused our transatlantic friends with our navigation rules, we'll probably
confuse them even more by defining one side of the river by reference to a
county which officially disappeared 42 years ago.]

> coming back downstream against the current you should be
>> on starboard or "surrey" side
>> between hammersmith and putney bridge
>> having crossed over from port at the crossing point.
>
> actually we don't call that Starboard (as it would be confusing) -
> that's the 'Inshore Zone'
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/




30 Mar 2007 06:41:15
Jonny
Re: Muppets on the tideway

On Mar 30, 4:16 pm, "David Biddulph" <groups [at] biddulph.org.uk >
wrote:

> ...
> >> it depends where you were when the coach shouted at you.

I'm actually (since reading the Salvage Association report of a few
years ago) completely amazed you don't kill 2-5 rowers per year.
Astonished!




30 Mar 2007 10:04:41
coach
Re: Muppets on the tideway

Yesterday evening was a perfect example as to why going down below
Putney Bridge can be a good and safe option. As has aready been
discussed, the navigation rules below Putney are NOT dependent on the
direction of the Tide. Therefore with low water scheduled for
19:30-20:00 it made sense to train on a stretch where there can be no
doubt and confusion as to where one should be.

As my crews were comming off the water, with the moored boats at
Putney, broadside on across the river, I watched the numerous little
bow/stern lights weaving amongst each other as they tried to work out
where they should be.

The only time it is not 100% safe to procede downstream of Putney is
at the top of the tide. Once the water level has risen to the walls,
there are few places to get out of the water. Upstream of Putney,
other than the Harrods wharf, at least one side or the other of the
river has a sloping bank, which enables one to climb out of the water.



30 Mar 2007 19:31:28
Caroline Smith
Re: Muppets on the tideway

> But in certain conditions and with experienced
> crews, it's sometimes a much better option.

And much more interesting for the coxes ;)