31 Aug 2006 23:44:39
Tim
Jumpies dangerous?

I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
opinion; just asking what is normal.

A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required surgery
on his leg.
He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.

Is that an abnormal practice?
Is it a recognized danger?
What the heck is a jumpy?




31 Aug 2006 17:25:48
Mike Sullivan
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


"Tim" <Tim5464@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:HvKJg.198$Ka1.102@news01.roc.ny...
>I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
>opinion; just asking what is normal.
>
> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required
> surgery on his leg.
> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
>
> Is that an abnormal practice?
> Is it a recognized danger?
> What the heck is a jumpy?


from standing squat down and jump
off the ground. Repeat.

They can be done very well and effectively
and they can be done badly to ill effect
or injury.





31 Aug 2006 19:57:02
bill
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


Tim wrote:
> I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
> opinion; just asking what is normal.
>
> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required surgery
> on his leg.


> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.

That is a pretty ridiculous sexist ignorant comment from the coach.
Not from a PC standpoint but from a scientific one. Why would boys be
less prone to injury from this type of exersize than girls? In both
cases, the loads are proportional to the athlete's own strength, skill
and mass.

(I am diregarding the connective tissue subject that Mike brought up in
a previous thread).

Clearly as Sully points out in this thread, the exersize can be done
poorly or well. Proper coaching as well as an attentive athlete are
requisites.

To some extent athletes are responsible for their own injuries. You
have to feel and listen to your body. But to some extent the coach
needs to educate the athletes in this regard. A macho coaching attitude
needs to be balanced not with "touchy feely" but with responsible
oversight and injury prevention meaning teaching the athletes what to
pay attention to and how to catch problems before they spiral out of
control.

Never easy when there is competition for a slot, seat whathaveyou, as
the athlete is apt to cover up trouble. That's another place where an
experienced and/or observant coach can make a difference.



01 Sep 2006 03:24:10
Tim
Re: Jumpies dangerous?

> Tim wrote:
>> I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
>> opinion; just asking what is normal.
>>
>> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required
>> surgery
>> on his leg.
>
>
>> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
>> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
>
> That is a pretty ridiculous sexist ignorant comment from the coach.
> Not from a PC standpoint but from a scientific one. Why would boys be
> less prone to injury from this type of exersize than girls? In both
> cases, the loads are proportional to the athlete's own strength, skill
> and mass.
>
Prior to this year he had only coached girls, so that is his experience.
Nothing sexist about it, sorry.

> (I am diregarding the connective tissue subject that Mike brought up in
> a previous thread).
>
> Clearly as Sully points out in this thread, the exersize can be done
> poorly or well. Proper coaching as well as an attentive athlete are
> requisites.
>
> To some extent athletes are responsible for their own injuries. You
> have to feel and listen to your body. But to some extent the coach
> needs to educate the athletes in this regard. A macho coaching attitude
> needs to be balanced not with "touchy feely" but with responsible
> oversight and injury prevention meaning teaching the athletes what to
> pay attention to and how to catch problems before they spiral out of
> control.
>
I just found out the injury was a build up of lactic acid than needed to be
surgically drained.
I don't understand it at all.




31 Aug 2006 21:13:30
Mike Sullivan
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


"bill" <bill@plattdesign.net > wrote in message
news:1157079421.871020.17190@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tim wrote:
>> I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
>> opinion; just asking what is normal.
>>
>> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required
>> surgery
>> on his leg.
>
>
>> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
>> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
>
> That is a pretty ridiculous sexist ignorant comment from the coach.
> Not from a PC standpoint but from a scientific one. Why would boys be
> less prone to injury from this type of exersize than girls? In both
> cases, the loads are proportional to the athlete's own strength, skill
> and mass.
>
> (I am diregarding the connective tissue subject that Mike brought up in
> a previous thread).

Why? The statement makes total sense to me now (where it wouldn't have
a few years ago)

I can see where boys might be more competitive and reckless in those
exercises, however. I now am certain, though, in the same well supervised
program of men and women at age 17-22 of similar athletic training
background,
women's injuries will vastly outstrip the men's.

Mike




01 Sep 2006 11:53:50
Marc
Re: Jumpies dangerous?

bill wrote:
> Tim wrote:
>> I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
>> opinion; just asking what is normal.
>>
>> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required surgery
>> on his leg.
>
>
>> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
>> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
>
> That is a pretty ridiculous sexist ignorant comment from the coach.
> Not from a PC standpoint but from a scientific one. Why would boys be
> less prone to injury from this type of exersize than girls? In both
> cases, the loads are proportional to the athlete's own strength, skill
> and mass.
>
> (I am diregarding the connective tissue subject that Mike brought up in
> a previous thread).
> <<stuff deleted>>

whether the coach is sexist or not I can't say. seemed sort of not the
point of the comment to me.

Regardless, there is a documented difference in the number of knees
injuries among men and women athletes. There actually is reason for
concern that women are more prone to injuries to their ACL , for example:

http://tinyurl.com/gjqhd

http://tinyurl.com/ksme7

http://tinyurl.com/hxxrf

There IS a difference in non-contact ACL injury rates in women vs men,
even if it isn't clear why...

marc


01 Sep 2006 10:12:43
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


Tim wrote:
> > Tim wrote:
> >> I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
> >> opinion; just asking what is normal.
> >>
> >> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required
> >> surgery
> >> on his leg.
> >
> >
> >> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
> >> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
> >
> > That is a pretty ridiculous sexist ignorant comment from the coach.
> > Not from a PC standpoint but from a scientific one. Why would boys be
> > less prone to injury from this type of exersize than girls? In both
> > cases, the loads are proportional to the athlete's own strength, skill
> > and mass.
> >
> Prior to this year he had only coached girls, so that is his experience.
> Nothing sexist about it, sorry.
>
> > (I am diregarding the connective tissue subject that Mike brought up in
> > a previous thread).
> >
> > Clearly as Sully points out in this thread, the exersize can be done
> > poorly or well. Proper coaching as well as an attentive athlete are
> > requisites.
> >
> > To some extent athletes are responsible for their own injuries. You
> > have to feel and listen to your body. But to some extent the coach
> > needs to educate the athletes in this regard. A macho coaching attitude
> > needs to be balanced not with "touchy feely" but with responsible
> > oversight and injury prevention meaning teaching the athletes what to
> > pay attention to and how to catch problems before they spiral out of
> > control.
> >
> I just found out the injury was a build up of lactic acid than needed to be
> surgically drained.
> I don't understand it at all.

If the kid can't do 8 x 25 jumps, how will he row 6 minutes at 36? or
15 minutes at 32 in a head race? Bizarre



01 Sep 2006 17:25:37
Tim
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


<anton2468@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1157130763.711283.159610@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tim wrote:
>> > Tim wrote:
>> >> I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
>> >> opinion; just asking what is normal.
>> >>
>> >> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required
>> >> surgery
>> >> on his leg.
>> >
>> >
>> >> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
>> >> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
>> >
>> > That is a pretty ridiculous sexist ignorant comment from the coach.
>> > Not from a PC standpoint but from a scientific one. Why would boys be
>> > less prone to injury from this type of exersize than girls? In both
>> > cases, the loads are proportional to the athlete's own strength, skill
>> > and mass.
>> >
>> Prior to this year he had only coached girls, so that is his experience.
>> Nothing sexist about it, sorry.
>>
>> > (I am diregarding the connective tissue subject that Mike brought up in
>> > a previous thread).
>> >
>> > Clearly as Sully points out in this thread, the exersize can be done
>> > poorly or well. Proper coaching as well as an attentive athlete are
>> > requisites.
>> >
>> > To some extent athletes are responsible for their own injuries. You
>> > have to feel and listen to your body. But to some extent the coach
>> > needs to educate the athletes in this regard. A macho coaching attitude
>> > needs to be balanced not with "touchy feely" but with responsible
>> > oversight and injury prevention meaning teaching the athletes what to
>> > pay attention to and how to catch problems before they spiral out of
>> > control.
>> >
>> I just found out the injury was a build up of lactic acid than needed to
>> be
>> surgically drained.
>> I don't understand it at all.
>
> If the kid can't do 8 x 25 jumps, how will he row 6 minutes at 36? or
> 15 minutes at 32 in a head race? Bizarre
>
Interestingly, he is the fastest on the team (cut 11 seconds off his 2k over
the summer to 6:25) and is the only one to have problems with the jumpies.




01 Sep 2006 23:29:31
Jeremy Fagan
Re: Jumpies dangerous?

Tim wrote:
> <anton2468@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1157130763.711283.159610@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Tim wrote:
>>
>>>>Tim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
>>>>>opinion; just asking what is normal.
>>>>>
>>>>>A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required
>>>>>surgery
>>>>>on his leg.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
>>>>>The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
>>>>
>>>>That is a pretty ridiculous sexist ignorant comment from the coach.
>>>>Not from a PC standpoint but from a scientific one. Why would boys be
>>>>less prone to injury from this type of exersize than girls? In both
>>>>cases, the loads are proportional to the athlete's own strength, skill
>>>>and mass.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Prior to this year he had only coached girls, so that is his experience.
>>>Nothing sexist about it, sorry.
>>>
>>>
>>>>(I am diregarding the connective tissue subject that Mike brought up in
>>>>a previous thread).
>>>>
>>>>Clearly as Sully points out in this thread, the exersize can be done
>>>>poorly or well. Proper coaching as well as an attentive athlete are
>>>>requisites.
>>>>
>>>>To some extent athletes are responsible for their own injuries. You
>>>>have to feel and listen to your body. But to some extent the coach
>>>>needs to educate the athletes in this regard. A macho coaching attitude
>>>>needs to be balanced not with "touchy feely" but with responsible
>>>>oversight and injury prevention meaning teaching the athletes what to
>>>>pay attention to and how to catch problems before they spiral out of
>>>>control.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I just found out the injury was a build up of lactic acid than needed to
>>>be
>>>surgically drained.
>>>I don't understand it at all.
>>
>>If the kid can't do 8 x 25 jumps, how will he row 6 minutes at 36? or
>>15 minutes at 32 in a head race? Bizarre
>>
>
> Interestingly, he is the fastest on the team (cut 11 seconds off his 2k over
> the summer to 6:25) and is the only one to have problems with the jumpies.
>
>
200 squat jumps is not a light session, but I've done worse. A lot
depends on the range the coach is insisting on, on the stability of the
hips, back, knees and ankles.

Also, if it's the first session back doing land training after a summer
in the boat, it's probably worth starting with lighter sessions and
building up. I _have_ done harder sessions, but I couldn't do them now,
although I _may_ be able to do them again in a few weeks/months time.

Jeremy


02 Sep 2006 08:23:55
Justus J.
Re: Jumpies dangerous?

On 01/09/2006 19:25, Tim wrote (amongst others) :
> <anton2468@aol.com> wrote in ...
>> Tim wrote:
>>>> Tim wrote:
...
>>>>
>>> I just found out the injury was a build up of lactic acid than needed to
>>> be
>>> surgically drained.
>>> I don't understand it at all.
>> If the kid can't do 8 x 25 jumps, how will he row 6 minutes at 36? or
>> 15 minutes at 32 in a head race? Bizarre
>>
> Interestingly, he is the fastest on the team (cut 11 seconds off his 2k over
> the summer to 6:25) and is the only one to have problems with the jumpies.
>
>

He did 6:25 in a *boat*, and you worry about his jumpies? I should worry
why he didn't make it into the national team.


02 Sep 2006 12:55:29
Carl Douglas
Re: Jumpies dangerous?

Tim wrote:
> I don't know the details, and I am not looking for a medical or legal
> opinion; just asking what is normal.
>
> A 17 yearold boy on my son's crew team was hopitalized and required surgery
> on his leg.
> He is claiming it was caused by doing 8 sets of 25 jumpies.
> The coach says he has had girls do more than that for years.
>
> Is that an abnormal practice?
> Is it a recognized danger?
> What the heck is a jumpy?
>
>

The vulnerability of an athlete's knee joints to a non-rowing exercise
involving possibly uncontrolled impacts or unintended over-extensions
has _nothing_ whatsoever to do with their courage, athletic ability or
stamina, & in no way reflects on their potential as a rower.

At least, that's the case until the knees become permanently disabled
because someone fails to comprehend that we are not all made quite the
same & that susceptibility to a particular type of training injury does
not remotely betoken gutlessness or inadequacy.

Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


02 Sep 2006 13:38:04
bill
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


Tim wrote:

> I just found out the injury was a build up of lactic acid than needed to be
> surgically drained.
> I don't understand it at all.

Well then that kid aught to be a cyclist. Most people involuntarily
puke long before they reach that high a lactic acid concentration.



03 Sep 2006 20:25:35
Tim
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


"Justus J." <Info@SKIPTHIS.row-ware.com > wrote in message
news:44F9237B.1090202@SKIPTHIS.row-ware.com...
> On 01/09/2006 19:25, Tim wrote (amongst others) :
>> <anton2468@aol.com> wrote in ...
>>> Tim wrote:
>>>>> Tim wrote:
> ...
>>>>>
>>>> I just found out the injury was a build up of lactic acid than needed
>>>> to be
>>>> surgically drained.
>>>> I don't understand it at all.
>>> If the kid can't do 8 x 25 jumps, how will he row 6 minutes at 36? or
>>> 15 minutes at 32 in a head race? Bizarre
>>>
>> Interestingly, he is the fastest on the team (cut 11 seconds off his 2k
>> over the summer to 6:25) and is the only one to have problems with the
>> jumpies.
>
> He did 6:25 in a *boat*, and you worry about his jumpies? I should worry
> why he didn't make it into the national team.

Well, that's the whole issue. The rest of the team isn't in nearly as good
condition, yet the jumpies didn't bother them. Why did they cause him, and
only him, to need surgery?!




04 Sep 2006 12:03:32
boatie
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


>
> Well, that's the whole issue. The rest of the team isn't in nearly as good
> condition, yet the jumpies didn't bother them. Why did they cause him, and
> only him, to need surgery?!

Each person is an individual. He's built differently from teh rest of
them. Some of us excel at exercises others find hard.
Remember rowing and sculling are mono-directional and (in a boat)
require very little side-to-side muscle strength to balance
multi=-directional movement. Compare running on a road to running
along a hillside. You need different supporting muscles to do cross
country successfully.

He probably should have built up to this training session. Coach's
error by the sound of it.



04 Sep 2006 15:45:06
GraemeC
Re: Jumpies dangerous?

I've never heard of anyone getting lactate drained before? Anyone else
experienced this?
g



05 Sep 2006 10:42:51
Re: Jumpies dangerous?


boatie wrote:
> >
> > Well, that's the whole issue. The rest of the team isn't in nearly as good
> > condition, yet the jumpies didn't bother them. Why did they cause him, and
> > only him, to need surgery?!
>
> Each person is an individual. He's built differently from teh rest of
> them. Some of us excel at exercises others find hard.
> Remember rowing and sculling are mono-directional and (in a boat)
> require very little side-to-side muscle strength to balance
> multi=-directional movement. Compare running on a road to running
> along a hillside. You need different supporting muscles to do cross
> country successfully.
>
> He probably should have built up to this training session. Coach's
> error by the sound of it.

Far more likely it was an exisiting problem highlighted by the
exercise. The worst a complete novice should get is stiff legs the next
day.

There is a complete lack of information here and blaming the coach is
unwarranted.

I have never heard of lactic acid being drained either.