29 Aug 2006 02:39:39
alex
Capsize drill

I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.

Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
market?

Do the FISA control commision check heal restraints with the same
thoroughness as UK umpires?

Is it possible that the "Wing riggers" now favoured by many crews may
trap ones feet?



29 Aug 2006 11:07:58
mpruscoe
Re: Capsize drill

alex wrote:
> I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
> that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
> one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
> had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
>
> Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
> market?
>
Probably only because people who haven't seen them before might not
understand how to open them, particularly if the sliding yellow security
catch is closed.

All 3 times that I've been to the worlds (to speculate or volunteer),
I've seen people fall in at the end of races.


29 Aug 2006 04:29:56
martin123@carr12331.freeserve.
Re: Capsize drill


mpruscoe wrote:
> alex wrote:
> > I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
> > that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
> > one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
> > had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
> >
> > Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
> > market?
> >
> Probably only because people who haven't seen them before might not
> understand how to open them, particularly if the sliding yellow security
> catch is closed.
>
> All 3 times that I've been to the worlds (to speculate or volunteer),
> I've seen people fall in at the end of races.

The on water team at the WRC were given a demonstration gate to play
with during the week to familarise themselves how they open. I guess
though in a pressure situation it was difficult to get them undone,
especially as they would then be upside down.

I'm also not sure who much the sprung front of the gate would create a
problem in that situation

More importantly the reason the German pair fell in was due to both
oarsmen lieing back after the race - a recipe for disaster !

Now you may understand why at domestic regattas most umpires post race
scream at anybody for doing this !



29 Aug 2006 04:40:05
Peter Ford
Re: Capsize drill


martin123@carr12331.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> mpruscoe wrote:
> > alex wrote:
> > > I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
> > > that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
> > > one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
> > > had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
> > >
> > > Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
> > > market?
> > >
> > Probably only because people who haven't seen them before might not
> > understand how to open them, particularly if the sliding yellow security
> > catch is closed.
> >
> > All 3 times that I've been to the worlds (to speculate or volunteer),
> > I've seen people fall in at the end of races.
>
> The on water team at the WRC were given a demonstration gate to play
> with during the week to familarise themselves how they open. I guess
> though in a pressure situation it was difficult to get them undone,
> especially as they would then be upside down.
>
> I'm also not sure who much the sprung front of the gate would create a
> problem in that situation
>
> More importantly the reason the German pair fell in was due to both
> oarsmen lieing back after the race - a recipe for disaster !
>
> Now you may understand why at domestic regattas most umpires post race
> scream at anybody for doing this !

Oh, I'd always assumed that the umpires screaming around the finish
area at nottingham shouting at people, when 8s races finish, was
because they wanted to know who was actually unable to sit up and who
was just in an average state of collapse; because it seems unlikely a
bowman lying down in an 8 will make it capsize.

Peter Ford



29 Aug 2006 12:55:59
Carl Douglas
Re: Capsize drill

alex wrote:
> I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
> that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
> one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
> had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
>
> Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
> market?
>
> Do the FISA control commision check heal restraints with the same
> thoroughness as UK umpires?
>

Which crew was that?

That someone had difficulty extracting feet indicates incorrectly or
inadequately fitted heel restraints, or worse. The problem may have
been compounded by overtightened shoes (laces or Velcro straps). That
indicates a lack of awareness training on the part of them, their coach
& team. And why no safety check by the regatta on this fundamental
matter? A drowning in front of spectators would be lousy publicity for
our sport.

Let's re-iterate it, for the sake of those (such as national
federations, including the UK's) & ordinary rowers who simply don't
understand foot release:
1. The heel cord is there to tug the heel of the shoe & thus release
the human heel, exactly as the lazy guy removes a shoe by treading on
the heel
2. The cord should only be long enough to accommodate normal heel lift
in use. *Never* does that lift reach as much as 50mm/2". So the
maximum possible lift on any shoe heel should _never_ exceed 50mm.
3. If the heel can lift further (the ARA rules foolishly allows it to
rise as far as the lowest fixing bolt!), then the foot can be
irremovably trapped in a close-fitting shoe.
[That, in technical terms, is because the foot bones are incompressible
& form a neutral axis, while the shoe sole, when curved convexly under
the foot, must take an increasingly longer path if the shoe & human
heels to remain in normal contact. This has the effect of driving the
foot further into the toe of the shoe, & at some point the foot can go
no further. Then, regardless of the heel restraint, you cannot escape
unless you can flatten the heel back down - whereupon the slack heel
cord provides no tug, so the shoe cannot self-release.]
4. The heel restraint _must_ be of a stout & wear-resistant material, &
be fixed securely to a _strong_ part of the shoe heel & of the heel of
the foot-stretcher. Bits of shoe lace, tied in bows or however, & weedy
bits of string or perished straps - these things we see everywhere &
they simply will not do. When most needed, they break. Would you
willingly hang your life by a shoe lace?
[We recommend a double strand of 3.2mm/0.125" to 4mm diameter braided
nylon cord, looped through a secure fixing on the shoe (or thru 2 holes
in the heel), both ends passed through a single, close-fitting hole in
the stretcher heel, then knotted at the ends in a thumb knot, that knot
hardened by heating it with a small flame, & then prevented from sliding
by bonding in place with Sikaflex or epoxy resin.]
5. You must _always_ have 2 independently fastened heel restraints.
6. The shoe should _never_ be tight on the foot. Always leave it slack
enough that the foot could slide out.


> Is it possible that the "Wing riggers" now favoured by many crews may
> trap ones feet?
>

I have no idea. However, I note that stroke of the GBR M4- says he
almost lost his blade in the final 15 strokes when he caught his
oar-handle on the wing.

Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


29 Aug 2006 14:11:04
Alistair Groves
Re: Capsize drill

alex wrote:
> I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
> that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
> one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
> had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
>
> Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
> market?
>
> Do the FISA control commision check heal restraints with the same
> thoroughness as UK umpires?
>
> Is it possible that the "Wing riggers" now favoured by many crews may
> trap ones feet?
>

As far as I remember he wasn't actually held in by his feet, but that
initially the blade itself was holding him in. And the new gates did
indeed cause some people trouble at trying to open them when upside down
under water.

Alistair


29 Aug 2006 07:25:45
c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk
Re: Capsize drill

>
> Oh, I'd always assumed that the umpires screaming around the finish
> area at nottingham shouting at people, when 8s races finish, was
> because they wanted to know who was actually unable to sit up and who
> was just in an average state of collapse;

The primary duty of the race umpire is safety. If crew members collapse
backward like this at the end of a race then you don't know whether
they're genuinely in need of medical help or not. It does make you
liable to capsize as well and if you are genuinely in distress it's not
a good time to be entering the water.



29 Aug 2006 07:29:45
c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk
Re: Capsize drill


alex wrote:

>
> Is it possible that the "Wing riggers" now favoured by many crews may
> trap ones feet?

This is perfectly possible and in fact one of the FISA umpires at this
year's Nat Champs drew attention to it this year. Unless the heel
restraint was exactly at the right length the feet would have been
trapped.

AFAIK (admittedly only from one regatta) boats are not checked as
assiduously at international regattas as home (UK) ones. When I was on
control commission I seemed to be the only one checking the heel
restraints by actually tugging them to see how long they were, and as
for checking the oar thickness I didn't see that being done at all.



29 Aug 2006 07:57:27
Re: Capsize drill


c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > Oh, I'd always assumed that the umpires screaming around the finish
> > area at nottingham shouting at people, when 8s races finish, was
> > because they wanted to know who was actually unable to sit up and who
> > was just in an average state of collapse;
>
> The primary duty of the race umpire is safety. If crew members collapse
> backward like this at the end of a race then you don't know whether
> they're genuinely in need of medical help or not. It does make you
> liable to capsize as well and if you are genuinely in distress it's not
> a good time to be entering the water.

How does lowering the center of gravity increase the likelihood of
capsize? Certainly unconsciousness or physical distress resulting in
collapse would, but not a post race lie down. (not that I'm advocating
it, because I'd not, just wondering)

- Paul Smith



29 Aug 2006 23:10:10
Nick Suess
Re: Capsize drill


<c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk > wrote in message

>> Is it possible that the "Wing riggers" now favoured by many crews may
>> trap ones feet?
>
> This is perfectly possible and in fact one of the FISA umpires at this
> year's Nat Champs drew attention to it this year. Unless the heel
> restraint was exactly at the right length the feet would have been
> trapped.

But they make boats go so much faster, as we all know, probably worth 8 or 9
lengths in 2000 metres, so surely a few drownings here and there are a small
price to pay.




29 Aug 2006 17:47:56
Carl Douglas
Re: Capsize drill

c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> alex wrote:
>
>
>>Is it possible that the "Wing riggers" now favoured by many crews may
>>trap ones feet?
>
>
> This is perfectly possible and in fact one of the FISA umpires at this
> year's Nat Champs drew attention to it this year. Unless the heel
> restraint was exactly at the right length the feet would have been
> trapped.
>
> AFAIK (admittedly only from one regatta) boats are not checked as
> assiduously at international regattas as home (UK) ones. When I was on
> control commission I seemed to be the only one checking the heel
> restraints by actually tugging them to see how long they were, and as
> for checking the oar thickness I didn't see that being done at all.
>

But they _were_ checking assiduously for makers' ID within the boat
(expressly forbidden under FISA regs, would you believe, though I doubt
shoe-makers take any notice). One sculler was told to tape over a
maker's name on a seat. Pointing out that this was, for obvious
reasons, invisible during a race failed to make any impression on the
jobsworth making the ludicrous demand.

At the meeting between FISA & the manufacturers on Thursday we had a
discussion of this (I hope) unintended consequence of a rather
unimaginative attempt by rule-makers to clean up the advertising
material on boats. Thus for the last year one consequence of this
ruling was that, while the boatbuilder could display a single
name/logo/ID on each side which could be no bigger than 100sq cm in
enclosing rectangular area, the oarmaker could have the same 100sq cm on
every oar (72 sq cm on every scull), but the rigger maker was forbidden
from identifying his product in any way, as was the oarlock maker, seat
maker (qv), shoemaker (although not in practice), stretcher maker &
track maker.

If you think about that for a moment, as I had to, that means that on an
eight viewed from one side the oarmaker gets ~80 times the visible
display area per unit cost that the boatbuilder is allowed. It's about
the same proportion on a quad, & when either boat is viewed from astern
that cost/visibility ratio rises to infinity.

I first learned about this nonsense when pictures were published of the
US JM8+, winning their event at the '05 Championships, with everything
heavily labelled with commercial ID (including the NK Cox-box headband).
The one exception was our AeRoWing riggers! On these, every single
logo (& they are pretty small) had been conspicuously masked out with
yellow insulating tape at FISA insistence. How crazy can you get?

Yet, at Eton, GBR sculler Campbell's riggers escaped the blanket ban on
name logos & bore the maker's name, visible in the picture from his
repechage published in the D.Tel.

FISA knows that manufacturers all put in a great deal of effort for the
benefit of international crews using their kit. It was agreed at the
meeting that the present rule was inequitable in its effect, denied
information to the rowing public and would be open to alteration early
in 2007.

Cheers -
Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


29 Aug 2006 18:55:54
Carl Douglas
Re: Capsize drill

paul_v_smith@hotmail.com wrote:
> c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
>
>>>Oh, I'd always assumed that the umpires screaming around the finish
>>>area at nottingham shouting at people, when 8s races finish, was
>>>because they wanted to know who was actually unable to sit up and who
>>>was just in an average state of collapse;
>>
>>The primary duty of the race umpire is safety. If crew members collapse
>>backward like this at the end of a race then you don't know whether
>>they're genuinely in need of medical help or not. It does make you
>>liable to capsize as well and if you are genuinely in distress it's not
>>a good time to be entering the water.
>
>
> How does lowering the center of gravity increase the likelihood of
> capsize? Certainly unconsciousness or physical distress resulting in
> collapse would, but not a post race lie down. (not that I'm advocating
> it, because I'd not, just wondering)
>
> - Paul Smith
>

I think it's like this, Paul:
You lie right back & lose sight of the horizon. You're knackered. It's
not your normal position for controlling balance. And the oar-handle is
above your diaphragm, reducing the blade's distance from boat. Roll
stability is compromised by the last feature & your self-stabilising
reflexes are impaired by your position. You start to roll. You don't
realise it's going too far or you make an inappropriate correction you'd
not have made if sat upright. Over you go!

Having rolled, you still have the handle by your diaphragm, & your own
flotation keeps you pressed against the boat. In surprise you may
clutch the handle for safety. Both factors discourage/prevent you from
pulling your feet away from the stretcher. You have a problem.

If a rescuer finds you like that, they should not mess about trying to
undo gates. Either lift one side's blade out of the water - that'll
release you from the boat - or if possible move the blade towards the
bow (which should free the occupant. Time is of the essence, so only if
neither is possible - which takes a few moments to establish - should
you start fiddling with gates.

So don't lay back after a race. You'll probably recover better if you
sit up or lean forward, & you won't capsize.

Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


29 Aug 2006 11:39:55
c.anton@blueyonder.co.uk
Re: Capsize drill


Carl Douglas wrote:

>
> I think it's like this, Paul:
> You lie right back & lose sight of the horizon. You're knackered.

That's it exactly, It's more the disorientation more than anything
that's the problem.



29 Aug 2006 21:33:24
Edgar
Re: Capsize drill

When I raced in eights we had an agreement within the crew that however
knackered we were at the finish we would never lie back or do anything other
than sit upright and look as if it had been easy...

"Peter Ford" <p3t3r.f0rd@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156851605.059052.281330@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> martin123@carr12331.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> > mpruscoe wrote:
> > > alex wrote:
> > > > I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
> > > > that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched
whilst
> > > > one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety
boat
> > > > had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
> > > >
> > > > Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on
the
> > > > market?
> > > >
> > > Probably only because people who haven't seen them before might not
> > > understand how to open them, particularly if the sliding yellow
security
> > > catch is closed.
> > >
> > > All 3 times that I've been to the worlds (to speculate or volunteer),
> > > I've seen people fall in at the end of races.
> >
> > The on water team at the WRC were given a demonstration gate to play
> > with during the week to familarise themselves how they open. I guess
> > though in a pressure situation it was difficult to get them undone,
> > especially as they would then be upside down.
> >
> > I'm also not sure who much the sprung front of the gate would create a
> > problem in that situation
> >
> > More importantly the reason the German pair fell in was due to both
> > oarsmen lieing back after the race - a recipe for disaster !
> >
> > Now you may understand why at domestic regattas most umpires post race
> > scream at anybody for doing this !
>
> Oh, I'd always assumed that the umpires screaming around the finish
> area at nottingham shouting at people, when 8s races finish, was
> because they wanted to know who was actually unable to sit up and who
> was just in an average state of collapse; because it seems unlikely a
> bowman lying down in an 8 will make it capsize.
>
> Peter Ford
>




30 Aug 2006 01:49:06
The Hub
Re: Capsize drill


martin123@carr12331.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> mpruscoe wrote:
> > alex wrote:
> > > I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
> > > that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
> > > one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
> > > had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
> > >
> > > Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
> > > market?
> > >
> > Probably only because people who haven't seen them before might not
> > understand how to open them, particularly if the sliding yellow security
> > catch is closed.
> >
> > All 3 times that I've been to the worlds (to speculate or volunteer),
> > I've seen people fall in at the end of races.
>
> The on water team at the WRC were given a demonstration gate to play
> with during the week to familarise themselves how they open. I guess
> though in a pressure situation it was difficult to get them undone,
> especially as they would then be upside down.
>
> I'm also not sure who much the sprung front of the gate would create a
> problem in that situation
>
> More importantly the reason the German pair fell in was due to both
> oarsmen lieing back after the race - a recipe for disaster !
>
> Now you may understand why at domestic regattas most umpires post race
> scream at anybody for doing this !

For the record, I was one of the guys in the water boat (the grey BIRO
Zodiac boat) that was involved in the rescue at the finish at the time
the pair went in.

The situation was that stroke man had collapsed backwards first,
quickly followed by bowman, both crew were very exhausted & as a result
the boat rolled over towards strokeside.

As we were the nearest boat to the incident we attended only to find
that bowmans feet were stuck in the shoes as were strokeman's,
strokeman was also trapped by both blades which were at least holding
him above the water.

My colleague was attending to stroke whilst I was attempting to bring
bowman's head back above the waterline (by this time he was not too
responsive), in the meantime two safety boats had arrived & positioned
themselves, one of them freeing up strokes feet & the other attempting
to free bows feet.

Strokes feet were then free but he was still being held by the blades
which could not be freed out of the gates due I think to the extra
pressure being exerted by bow's feet still being in the stretcher
whilst his upper body was being held above the waterline, thus twisting
the boat, the yellow catch could be moved but as soon as this was done
the gap was then closed up by, I suspect the extra pressure being
exerted on the blades/gate etc.

As soon as the lifegaurd managed to release bow's feet the pressure was
then released off of the blades & they were then pulled apart so that
we could then get both casualties out of the water & to relative
safety.

I didn't get to look at the boat afterwards but would suspect that the
velcro straps (which I am told were fitted to the shoes) were too tight
& the heel restraints too long, combine this with the lying down in a
boat & you end up with this incident, that's why all us Umpires &
rowers who regard safety as paramount constantly keep muttering on
about such matters.

Incidently, following this incident I believe that the gates have been
brought to the attention of the FISA Materials Commission for their
considered opinion.

Ta,

Hub.



30 Aug 2006 02:42:46
Rob Collings
Re: Capsize drill


The Hub wrote:
<snip >

> I didn't get to look at the boat afterwards but would suspect that the
> velcro straps (which I am told were fitted to the shoes) were too tight
> & the heel restraints too long

<snip again >

> Incidently, following this incident I believe that the gates have been
> brought to the attention of the FISA Materials Commission for their
> considered opinion.

This might be a really silly question, but what do gates have to do
with shoes being too tight and heel restraints being too long?

Rob.



30 Aug 2006 02:47:12
The Hub
Re: Capsize drill


Rob Collings wrote:
> The Hub wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > I didn't get to look at the boat afterwards but would suspect that the
> > velcro straps (which I am told were fitted to the shoes) were too tight
> > & the heel restraints too long
>
> <snip again>
>
> > Incidently, following this incident I believe that the gates have been
> > brought to the attention of the FISA Materials Commission for their
> > considered opinion.
>
> This might be a really silly question, but what do gates have to do
> with shoes being too tight and heel restraints being too long?
>
> Rob.

It was answering the original post of why the pair in question were in
trouble, a culmionation of both the gates & feet being stuck.

Ta,

Hub.



30 Aug 2006 10:51:55
mpruscoe
Re: Capsize drill

The Hub wrote:
> martin123@carr12331.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
>> mpruscoe wrote:
>>> alex wrote:
>>>> I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
>>>> that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
>>>> one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
>>>> had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on the
>>>> market?
>>>>
>>> Probably only because people who haven't seen them before might not
>>> understand how to open them, particularly if the sliding yellow security
>>> catch is closed.
>>>
>>> All 3 times that I've been to the worlds (to speculate or volunteer),
>>> I've seen people fall in at the end of races.
>> The on water team at the WRC were given a demonstration gate to play
>> with during the week to familarise themselves how they open. I guess
>> though in a pressure situation it was difficult to get them undone,
>> especially as they would then be upside down.
>>
>> I'm also not sure who much the sprung front of the gate would create a
>> problem in that situation
>>
>> More importantly the reason the German pair fell in was due to both
>> oarsmen lieing back after the race - a recipe for disaster !
>>
>> Now you may understand why at domestic regattas most umpires post race
>> scream at anybody for doing this !
>
> For the record, I was one of the guys in the water boat (the grey BIRO
> Zodiac boat) that was involved in the rescue at the finish at the time
> the pair went in.
>
> The situation was that stroke man had collapsed backwards first,
> quickly followed by bowman, both crew were very exhausted & as a result
> the boat rolled over towards strokeside.
>
> As we were the nearest boat to the incident we attended only to find
> that bowmans feet were stuck in the shoes as were strokeman's,
> strokeman was also trapped by both blades which were at least holding
> him above the water.
>
> My colleague was attending to stroke whilst I was attempting to bring
> bowman's head back above the waterline (by this time he was not too
> responsive), in the meantime two safety boats had arrived & positioned
> themselves, one of them freeing up strokes feet & the other attempting
> to free bows feet.
>
> Strokes feet were then free but he was still being held by the blades
> which could not be freed out of the gates due I think to the extra
> pressure being exerted by bow's feet still being in the stretcher
> whilst his upper body was being held above the waterline, thus twisting
> the boat, the yellow catch could be moved but as soon as this was done
> the gap was then closed up by, I suspect the extra pressure being
> exerted on the blades/gate etc.
>
> As soon as the lifegaurd managed to release bow's feet the pressure was
> then released off of the blades & they were then pulled apart so that
> we could then get both casualties out of the water & to relative
> safety.
>
> I didn't get to look at the boat afterwards but would suspect that the
> velcro straps (which I am told were fitted to the shoes) were too tight
> & the heel restraints too long, combine this with the lying down in a
> boat & you end up with this incident, that's why all us Umpires &
> rowers who regard safety as paramount constantly keep muttering on
> about such matters.
>
> Incidently, following this incident I believe that the gates have been
> brought to the attention of the FISA Materials Commission for their
> considered opinion.

Photo's of the incident are here:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?T2A6529AD

http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3B6229AD

http://makeashorterlink.com/?N2C6149AD

http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-51911.html

Comparing with your description, I'm not entirely sure how strokes blade
was contributing to the problem, unless it got tangled up again during
the rescue.

I hope someone did take a good look at the length of the heel restraints
in the boat after the incident.



30 Aug 2006 03:18:57
Rob Collings
Re: Capsize drill

The Hub wrote:
> > This might be a really silly question, but what do gates have to do
> > with shoes being too tight and heel restraints being too long?
> >
> > Rob.
>
> It was answering the original post of why the pair in question were in
> trouble, a culmionation of both the gates & feet being stuck.

Fair enough, although even 'normal' gates can be hard to undo either
through having the oar at a really wierd angle or (more usually in this
country) because it's about half a degree outside and you're wet and
cold and your hands are numb and you're not really going to be able to
handle anything that small.

It seems that gates are designed to hold the oars in, not release them.
IMHO investigation of the gates in this instance is effort being wasted
in the wrong place.

Rob.



30 Aug 2006 12:51:11
Carl Douglas
Re: Capsize drill

mpruscoe wrote:
> The Hub wrote:
>
>> martin123@carr12331.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>> mpruscoe wrote:
>>>
>>>> alex wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was speaking to a friend who was at Dorney, who expressed suprise
>>>>> that when, having crossed the line, a pair capsized. He watched whilst
>>>>> one of the crew struggled to extract his feet and that the safety boat
>>>>> had problems with getting the blades out of the gates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a problem with the new spring loaded gates that are now on
>>>>> the
>>>>> market?
>>>>>
>>>> Probably only because people who haven't seen them before might not
>>>> understand how to open them, particularly if the sliding yellow
>>>> security
>>>> catch is closed.
>>>>
>>>> All 3 times that I've been to the worlds (to speculate or volunteer),
>>>> I've seen people fall in at the end of races.
>>>
>>> The on water team at the WRC were given a demonstration gate to play
>>> with during the week to familarise themselves how they open. I guess
>>> though in a pressure situation it was difficult to get them undone,
>>> especially as they would then be upside down.
>>>
>>> I'm also not sure who much the sprung front of the gate would create a
>>> problem in that situation
>>>
>>> More importantly the reason the German pair fell in was due to both
>>> oarsmen lieing back after the race - a recipe for disaster !
>>>
>>> Now you may understand why at domestic regattas most umpires post race
>>> scream at anybody for doing this !
>>
>>
>> For the record, I was one of the guys in the water boat (the grey BIRO
>> Zodiac boat) that was involved in the rescue at the finish at the time
>> the pair went in.
>>
>> The situation was that stroke man had collapsed backwards first,
>> quickly followed by bowman, both crew were very exhausted & as a result
>> the boat rolled over towards strokeside.
>>
>> As we were the nearest boat to the incident we attended only to find
>> that bowmans feet were stuck in the shoes as were strokeman's,
>> strokeman was also trapped by both blades which were at least holding
>> him above the water.
>>
>> My colleague was attending to stroke whilst I was attempting to bring
>> bowman's head back above the waterline (by this time he was not too
>> responsive), in the meantime two safety boats had arrived & positioned
>> themselves, one of them freeing up strokes feet & the other attempting
>> to free bows feet.
>>
>> Strokes feet were then free but he was still being held by the blades
>> which could not be freed out of the gates due I think to the extra
>> pressure being exerted by bow's feet still being in the stretcher
>> whilst his upper body was being held above the waterline, thus twisting
>> the boat, the yellow catch could be moved but as soon as this was done
>> the gap was then closed up by, I suspect the extra pressure being
>> exerted on the blades/gate etc.
>>
>> As soon as the lifegaurd managed to release bow's feet the pressure was
>> then released off of the blades & they were then pulled apart so that
>> we could then get both casualties out of the water & to relative
>> safety.
>>
>> I didn't get to look at the boat afterwards but would suspect that the
>> velcro straps (which I am told were fitted to the shoes) were too tight
>> & the heel restraints too long, combine this with the lying down in a
>> boat & you end up with this incident, that's why all us Umpires &
>> rowers who regard safety as paramount constantly keep muttering on
>> about such matters.
>>
>> Incidently, following this incident I believe that the gates have been
>> brought to the attention of the FISA Materials Commission for their
>> considered opinion.
>
>
> Photo's of the incident are here:
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?T2A6529AD
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3B6229AD
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?N2C6149AD
>
> http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-51911.html
>
> Comparing with your description, I'm not entirely sure how strokes blade
> was contributing to the problem, unless it got tangled up again during
> the rescue.
>
> I hope someone did take a good look at the length of the heel restraints
> in the boat after the incident.
>

It seems that all my suspicions are confirmed (BTW, can't get those 1st
3 images to load)

It also seems that the rescue team were not thinking clearly about the
mechanics of the situation. Faffing about trying to release the gates
was a complete waste of valuable time.

All it needed in order to remove the handle from the rower's body, with
the boat inverted, was to lift the blade up from the water.

Did the rescuers fail to invert their thinking to match the inversion of
the boat? It can often happen in the heat of the moment that one
erroneously clings to a familiar frame of reference, even though in
rowing everything happens back-to-front.

Why did they think they had to release the gates at all? In trying to
right the boat by lifting on riggers, did that lead to catching the
blade on the rescue boat & effectively pinning one rower into his shell?

I'd be most interested to hear further eyewitness accounts & the
accounts of the rescuers as to the real circumstances of the rescue. I
applaud them for getting the guys free, but they may have useful lessons
to impart & we will not learn if we are not fully informed.

I can't see that the operation of the gates is of even the slightest
relevance to this case.

Serious questions must be asked about shoe tightness & heel restraints.
It may be hard to learn how tightly the feet were strapped into the
shoes, but the conditions & length of the heel restraints ought to have
been checked & recorded - if FISA is serious about water safety.

Carl

--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)


30 Aug 2006 13:34:47
mpruscoe
Re: Capsize drill

Carl Douglas wrote:
> mpruscoe wrote:
>> Photo's of the incident are here:
>>
>> http://makeashorterlink.com/?T2A6529AD
>>
>> http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3B6229AD
>>
>> http://makeashorterlink.com/?N2C6149AD
>>
>> http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-51911.html
>>
>> Comparing with your description, I'm not entirely sure how strokes
>> blade was contributing to the problem, unless it got tangled up again
>> during the rescue.
>>
>> I hope someone did take a good look at the length of the heel
>> restraints in the boat after the incident.
>>
>
> It seems that all my suspicions are confirmed (BTW, can't get those 1st
> 3 images to load)

Must have copied them wrongly:

http://snipurl.com/vpev

http://snipurl.com/vpey

http://snipurl.com/vpf2





30 Aug 2006 18:54:19
Alasdhair Johnston
Re: Capsize drill

There's also that the closer the centre of gravity to the centre of
bouyancy, the shorter the effective pendulum, so if it does roll, it will
roll a lot quicker, which, knackered and disoriented as you are, besides no
longer being placed to move in reaction...