21 May 2004 13:01:27
peter
2x start

My partner (age 55) and I (age 75) are entering a 1000 meter sprint next
weekend. We have tried many starting routines and are still wondering
which is best. What are your ideas, opinions, comments, etc...Peter



21 May 2004 16:17:14
David Gillard
Re: 2x start

> My partner (age 55) and I (age 75) are entering a 1000 meter sprint next
> weekend. We have tried many starting routines and are still wondering
> which is best. What are your ideas, opinions, comments, etc...Peter
>

Have you tried a defibrillator?





23 May 2004 19:34:12
POWER10
Re: 2x start

You state that you have tried many different starts. The one that is best is
probably the one where you both feel comfortable in getting the boat moving
with firmness and stability. There have been numerous "posts" in the past on
the virtue of different start sequences, from simple ones to ridiculously
complicated ones. A good coach and rower gave his gem of wisdom, briefly, as
long as you do it together, with precision, it can work.
Have you tried something like, 3/4, 3/4, and build up to full slide, full
pressure over the next several strokes, then continuing for whatever your
"high" 20 might be and then settling to a rate you can handle, up until your
final sprint.
As for the one post that mocked age, what does he know?! I think it is great
that you are both rowing and racing. I wish you the best in your race! Have
fun!
Cordially,
Gordon L. Pizor
Head Coach and Associate Director
Wilmington Youth Rowing Association
Gordon L. Pizor
Head Coach and Associate Director
Wilmington Youth Rowing Association, Inc.
WYRA


24 May 2004 09:06:07
David Gillard
Re: 2x start


> As for the one post that mocked age, what does he know?! I think it is
great
> that you are both rowing and racing. I wish you the best in your race!
Have
> fun!

It was a JOKE. I very much hope that I am still able to get into a boat at
that age, though I would hope to have my start sequence okay after I've been
rowing for 50 years. 3/4, 3/4, wind, full length on somewhere between 7&10
is as good as any...





24 May 2004 10:50:03
Neil Wallace
Re: 2x start

David Gillard wrote:
>> As for the one post that mocked age, what does he know?! I think it
>> is great that you are both rowing and racing. I wish you the best
>> in your race! Have fun!
>
> It was a JOKE. I very much hope that I am still able to get into a
> boat at that age, though I would hope to have my start sequence okay
> after I've been rowing for 50 years. 3/4, 3/4, wind, full length on
> somewhere between 7&10 is as good as any...

Actually David, your joke made me think.

How many deaths from Cardiac arrest in rowing?
Probably more than swamping incidents - if we agree that is an area for
action then perhaps you've touched on another.

Medical colleagues can jump in here and correct if necessary, but I
understand that it is priority one to minimise time taken to get to a
defibrillator. Recent first aid courses I've attended have really stressed
this, even to the point that CPR is a stop gap until a defibrillator is
available.

Defibrillators are now getting easier to use, and portable. They are already
(and could well become a requirement) in some sports centres, gyms and even
large shopping centres.





24 May 2004 11:06:30
David Gillard
Re: 2x start

>
> Actually David, your joke made me think.
>
> How many deaths from Cardiac arrest in rowing?
> Probably more than swamping incidents - if we agree that is an area for
> action then perhaps you've touched on another.
>
> Medical colleagues can jump in here and correct if necessary, but I
> understand that it is priority one to minimise time taken to get to a
> defibrillator. Recent first aid courses I've attended have really stressed
> this, even to the point that CPR is a stop gap until a defibrillator is
> available.
>
> Defibrillators are now getting easier to use, and portable. They are
already
> (and could well become a requirement) in some sports centres, gyms and
even
> large shopping centres.
>

Blimey. But aren't they also very dangerous when used incorrectly?




24 May 2004 03:17:36
Mark Campbell
Re: 2x start

peter <spellmapc@comcast.net > wrote in message news:<H4nrc.90781$iF6.7853283@attbi_s02>...
> My partner (age 55) and I (age 75) are entering a 1000 meter sprint next
> weekend. We have tried many starting routines and are still wondering
> which is best. What are your ideas, opinions, comments, etc...Peter

I have found that no more than ten really fast strokes works best for
me. You might need to be a bit brave because you won't be quite as far
advanced after say twenty strokes, but the pay-back should occur
around thirty or more, when you are in a goog rhythm and feel you have
more to give as opposed to the feeling of lactate meltdown we see in
many who really rev for too long. Good Luck!


24 May 2004 11:19:29
Edward Fryer
Re: 2x start


"David Gillard" <davidg@NOSPAMPLEASErogge.co.uk > wrote in message
news:40b1c927$0$25324 > >

> > Defibrillators are now getting easier to use, and portable. They are
already (and could well become a requirement) in some sports centres, gyms
and even large shopping centres.
>
>
> Blimey. But aren't they also very dangerous when used incorrectly?

Automatic External Defibs instead of the "Paddles! Charge to 200" that you
see on Casualty and ER.

Automated external defibrillators (AEDs) have been introduced more recently.
These semi-automatic defibrillators are small, safe, simple and lightweight
with two pads that can be applied to the patient. The defibrillator is
programmed to give automatic step-by-step instructions. It records and
analyses the heart rhythm and instructs you to deliver the shock using clear
voice prompts, reinforced by displayed messages. This minimises any risk of
the patient being shocked inappropriately. Anyone trained in the use of
these devices and in basic life support will be able to safely and
effectively use an AED.

AIUI, apply the electrodes to the patient, and follow instructions. The
machine will not shock unless necessary.




24 May 2004 13:22:17
Matt Turnbull
Re: 2x start

On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:06:30 +0100, "David Gillard"
<davidg@NOSPAMPLEASErogge.co.uk > wrote:
>> Defibrillators are now getting easier to use, and portable. They are
>already
>> (and could well become a requirement) in some sports centres, gyms and
>even
>> large shopping centres.
>>
>
>Blimey. But aren't they also very dangerous when used incorrectly?

Automated defibrillators (AEDs) are designed to virtually idiot proof
and very safe. If you can already do CPR effectively, it takes
between two and four hours to be trained and assessed on their use.
On the other hand, you do need a basic set of knowledge to be able to
use one.

Someone seems to have raised this in Cambridge recently (the Cambridge
Rowing Association). I've sat on the bank at several head races
recently with first aid kit, defibrillator and oxygen in Red Cross
uniform.

To those of you running regattas - Red Cross or St John Ambulance (for
those in the UK) first aid cover isn't expensive,

Matt





24 May 2004 14:35:38
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: 2x start

On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:50:03 +0100, Neil Wallace wrote:
>How many deaths from Cardiac arrest in rowing?

One at a local race in Holland (Alkmaar) 2 May. 63-yr old man, cardiac
arrest just after the finish.
http://www.nlroei.nl/displayarticle-1073.html

I personally know of one other incident; my old geography teacher from
school died from drowning after heart attack while out in his rec single
("C1x") in Hilversum. That was 10 years ago or so.


24 May 2004 15:12:17
Carl Douglas
Re: 2x start

Ewoud Dronkert <me@privacy.net > writes
>On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:50:03 +0100, Neil Wallace wrote:
>>How many deaths from Cardiac arrest in rowing?
>
>One at a local race in Holland (Alkmaar) 2 May. 63-yr old man, cardiac
>arrest just after the finish.
>http://www.nlroei.nl/displayarticle-1073.html
>
>I personally know of one other incident; my old geography teacher from
>school died from drowning after heart attack while out in his rec single
>("C1x") in Hilversum. That was 10 years ago or so.

I recall similar fatalities to 2 friends of mine, both of them scullers.
One was John Harris of Burway RC (not far from us here in Staines). The
other was our client Theo Nomikos (London RC) while sculling near
Hammersmith Bridge.

Both were elderly. Theo was >70. We later learned that he'd kept the
order of his new boat a secret from his charming wife, who feared he
would indeed die in that way. But continuing to scull mattered deeply
to both of these men, as to so many.

All very sad. But by how much had their rowing already extended the
active life spans of these & so many other masters rowers? And who can
think of a better way for a rower to go - full of years & in the middle
of their favourite recreation?

Speaking from a position of moderate antiquity, I regard the deaths of
young rowers as of rather greater importance.

Hence my concern over the needless deaths of fit young rowers in crew
shell swampings. These occur only because elderly & not-so-elderly
people clinging to office in rowing (& often inactive as rowers) see
crew shell buoyancy - which is dead simple to achieve - as unworthy of
their concern except to be obstructed & opposed.

Similarly, I'm concerned when I hear of death or near-death of young
people through cardiac arrest (e.g. the narrow escape for a boy at a UK
regatta last week). For those interested in rowing fatalities in the US
from medical causes other than unnecessary immersion, I would draw
attention to the posting from John Rudoff on 30 December 2003 regarding
the US Rowing Fatality Investigation Committee.

Unfortunately, while USRA seems interested in medical emergencies (the
rather exciting stuff of so many bogus TV soaps) they care not a jot
about the boring, mundane but so easily achieved job of ensuring that
rowing shells are made so buoyant that the can't & won't sink under
their crews.

Is it really so very clever, & so very responsible, to have to call out
the public emergency services just because you simply can't be arsed to
spend peanuts to make your equipment safe? (Please pardon my French!)

Why?

Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: carl@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)



24 May 2004 18:36:41
John Mulholland
Re: 2x start

There is another side to the danger of heart attacks while rowing. If you
train, and are reasonably fit, your chance of getting a heart attack is
surely lower.

Anyway, for what it's worth, my philosophy is that rowing may not add years
to my life but it is certainly adding life to my years. (Vet D and
counting!)

John Mulholland

"Matt Turnbull" <mbt22@cam.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:o4q3b0d3tuu3kp8rjivbi06h4nlmqmd6qj@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:06:30 +0100, "David Gillard"
> <davidg@NOSPAMPLEASErogge.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Defibrillators are now getting easier to use, and portable. They are
> >already
> >> (and could well become a requirement) in some sports centres, gyms and
> >even
> >> large shopping centres.
> >>
> >
> >Blimey. But aren't they also very dangerous when used incorrectly?
>
> Automated defibrillators (AEDs) are designed to virtually idiot proof
> and very safe. If you can already do CPR effectively, it takes
> between two and four hours to be trained and assessed on their use.
> On the other hand, you do need a basic set of knowledge to be able to
> use one.
>
> Someone seems to have raised this in Cambridge recently (the Cambridge
> Rowing Association). I've sat on the bank at several head races
> recently with first aid kit, defibrillator and oxygen in Red Cross
> uniform.
>
> To those of you running regattas - Red Cross or St John Ambulance (for
> those in the UK) first aid cover isn't expensive,
>
> Matt
>
>
>




24 May 2004 19:33:50
Andrew Weaver
Re: 2x start

> > Defibrillators are now getting easier to use, and portable. They are
> already
> > (and could well become a requirement) in some sports centres, gyms and
> even
> > large shopping centres.
>
> Blimey. But aren't they also very dangerous when used incorrectly?

According to the Resuscitation Council Guidelines 2000 (UK) ventricular
fibrillation is the only effective therapy for cardiac arrest. The chances
of successful defibrillation decline at a rate of 7-10% with each minute
that passes from the arrest. Basic life support will help sustain a
shockable rhythm, but is not a definitive treatment.

It has taken over 25mins (more than a full oxygen cylinder) from making
the call for an ambulance to the paramedic arriving on scence at the Isis
in Oxford. If that had of been a cardiac arrest rather than a head injury
the chances of survival would have been vanishingly small. Before
Christmas I was on an Advanced First Aid course which included as part of
the assessment 10minutes of CPR. The minimum time one would expect to wait
for an ambulance crew to get to you in the UK. It was knackering even
without the added stress of a person's life being in the balance.

As a First Aider I feel much happier when I have the defibrillator with
me. Thus far the only time I have used it has been in training on a
manikin. It was simple to use and the manikin did regain a pulse.

In the last 2 years, I have treated 2 over 60s rowers for heart attacks
when they were out training (unsuccessivefully) and two young athletes for
conditions I could not identify. One stopped breathing briefly, the
other's breathing was very shallow. One of the few options as a First
Aider that I could not rule out was that they had, had mild heart
attacks.

Andrew


24 May 2004 23:46:00
j brontey
Re: 2x start

Matt Turnbull <mbt22@cam.ac.uk > wrote in message news:<o4q3b0d3tuu3kp8rjivbi06h4nlmqmd6qj@4ax.com>...
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:06:30 +0100, "David Gillard"
> <davidg@NOSPAMPLEASErogge.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Defibrillators are now getting easier to use, and portable. They are
> already
> >> (and could well become a requirement) in some sports centres, gyms and
> even
> >> large shopping centres.
> >>
> >
> >Blimey. But aren't they also very dangerous when used incorrectly?
>
> Automated defibrillators (AEDs) are designed to virtually idiot proof
> and very safe. If you can already do CPR effectively, it takes
> between two and four hours to be trained and assessed on their use.
> On the other hand, you do need a basic set of knowledge to be able to
> use one.
>
I hope I'm not entering a too-off-topic debate, but my impression is
that CPR is basically useless if you have to go more than a minute
pre-defibrillator. I remember hearing a talk by a couple of
cardiologists and they had fairly compelling evidence that virtually
every life ever saved by CPR outside of the hospital was actually a
case of the first aid giver not detecting the heartbeat (which can be
difficult in some arrhythmias or with severe hypotension, obesity
etc.) On top of this, there have been many instances of people
breaking ribs giving unnecessary CPR, which is why they're so big on
the idiot proof defibrillators, which won't even go off if the
computer decides you don't need it.

Even further off topic, there has been at least one published study of
the effectiveness of cardiac resussitation AS SEEN ON TV. The rates
of success are something like 30 times higher on television than in
real life, which obviously has a huge effect on the public perception
of it's usefulness.

Oh yes and nice work to the Canadian 8+, 4- and pair in Duisburg.
Ben


25 May 2004 00:56:01
Katy Cameron
Re: 2x start

power10@aol.com (POWER10) wrote in message
<snip >
> As for the one post that mocked age, what does he know?! I think it is great
> that you are both rowing and racing. I wish you the best in your race! Have
> fun!

Hmm, a veteran friend of mine was heard to say recently that as you
get older you stop looking for the best people to row with, and go for
the oldest you can find (thus ensuring you get the greatest head start
you can in handicapped races :o) )

KT


25 May 2004 06:41:03
Dave Henderson
Re: 2x start

katy.cameron@sepa.org.uk (Katy Cameron) wrote in message news:<73426933.0405242356.1e910c01@posting.google.com >...

>
> Hmm, a veteran friend of mine was heard to say recently that as you
> get older you stop looking for the best people to row with, and go for
> the oldest you can find (thus ensuring you get the greatest head start
> you can in handicapped races :o) )
>
> KT

It seems to me (and believe me, I've done plenty of research) that Vet
rowing is still ultra-competitive up to D - E is a bit easier but it's
only F and beyond where mere mortals seem to be in with a chance.

Which means that, if I were to think about (let's say) F pairs at the
FISA Vets, I'd need to find a 65-year-old partner. But my 65-year-old
of choice has just retired and is swanning around the canals of France
on his new houseboat.

So the really ancient ones have their drawbacks too.

Dave H


27 May 2004 02:42:22
A3aan
Re: 2x start

info@rowperfect.com.au wrote:

> peter <spellmapc@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<H4nrc.90781$iF6.7853283@attbi_s02>...
> > My partner (age 55) and I (age 75) are entering a 1000 meter sprint next
> > weekend. We have tried many starting routines and are still wondering
> > which is best. What are your ideas, opinions, comments, etc...Peter

> I have found that no more than ten really fast strokes works best for
> me. You might need to be a bit brave because you won't be quite as far
> advanced after say twenty strokes, but the pay-back should occur
> around thirty or more, when you are in a goog rhythm and feel you have
> more to give as opposed to the feeling of lactate meltdown we see in
> many who really rev for too long. Good Luck!

This depends, I think on the physiology and fitness of the rowers.
Some have more sprint capacity than others. But I agree fully with you
that rhythm is the thing to go for in most cases. So the best start
would be one that both gets you to the 100 m. line quickly, and has
you rowing in a controlled and rhythmic way. Just pick a sequence and
practice it a lot, doesn't really matter what sequence it is. You can
have someone to clock the 0-100 m. time, if you are not sure about
effectiveness, but you should be able to feel if the rhythm is right.

On a more practical note: on the first few strokes make sure your
catches are very quick (backsplash) and your finishes not too long
(finish with your back vertical rather than leaned backwards towards
the bow).

A3aan.


27 May 2004 11:50:41
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: 2x start

On 27 May 2004 02:42:22 -0700, A3aan wrote:
> [stuff]

Hey! Back from 3 year sabbatical?


28 May 2004 00:47:39
A3aan
Re: 2x start

Ewoud Dronkert <me@privacy.net > wrote in message news:<7cebb0duhso2p0hradb2ltp349mgo1levj@4ax.com>...
> On 27 May 2004 02:42:22 -0700, A3aan wrote:
> > [stuff]
>
> Hey! Back from 3 year sabbatical?

Been lurking in the shadows a bit. Back in the boat now. Raced at the
Heineken Regatta in Amsterdam (7th in Men's club eights) and training
in the 4+ now for the 'Compo slot'. Little lower ambition level, but
learning to enjoy it.

So you've just kept spamming this group for all that time huh?

A3aan.


28 May 2004 09:59:08
Ewoud Dronkert
Re: 2x start

On 28 May 2004 00:47:39 -0700, A3aan wrote:
> Back in the boat now.

Wow, what ethics; don't row, don't post to rsr.

> So you've just kept spamming this group for all that time huh?

I had the occasional day off.


28 May 2004 15:57:20
David Ballard
Re: 2x start

Ewoud Dronkert <me@privacy.net > wrote in message news:<67sdb0pb85gjsa4tg4c03i2kn34628t959@4ax.com>...
> On 28 May 2004 00:47:39 -0700, A3aan wrote:
> > Back in the boat now.
>
> Wow, what ethics; don't row, don't post to rsr.

Quite right. And tomorrow I take my boat out for the first time in
quite a while (on holiday, for a week). Problem is, all my kit seems
to have shrunk.

David