28 Jul 2006 19:03:30
unforgiven 33
different air

it seems to me that tippman guns work better off of C02 than they do off
of HPA.
do they really? and if they do, why? i'm seriously considering switching
to compressed air and running a remote (don't say it tony LoL) but don't
want to spend the extra cash on the new tank if it doesn't make it more
efficient or effective. would it make a difference if i also added a low
pressure mod/upgrade?

last week i ran out of air in the middle of a bad situation. it didn't
do me any favors if ya know what i mean. i'm still getting used to my
new a-5 and i think i just overshot what my 16 oz. Co=B2 tank would
allow. a 20 oz. would be a bit heavy i think. right now the tank is
still on the gun but i want to move it to my back (on my RAP4 vest)




29 Jul 2006 02:37:41
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

HPA is always better. a good reg is always very helpful...your consistency
will be better. I told you a long time ago you will upgrade till the money
spent is more that a nice matrix...Ps btw/ my son is selling his proto
shipped for $500..this gun has all the mods done to it and is a great gun
for someone.
hey what's that on your back that looks like a telephone cord ? ;-)
"unforgiven 33" <ChoongJung@webtv.net > wrote in message
news:13668-44CA97C2-140@storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net...
it seems to me that tippman guns work better off of C02 than they do off
of HPA.
do they really? and if they do, why? i'm seriously considering switching
to compressed air and running a remote (don't say it tony LoL) but don't
want to spend the extra cash on the new tank if it doesn't make it more
efficient or effective. would it make a difference if i also added a low
pressure mod/upgrade?

last week i ran out of air in the middle of a bad situation. it didn't
do me any favors if ya know what i mean. i'm still getting used to my
new a-5 and i think i just overshot what my 16 oz. Co² tank would
allow. a 20 oz. would be a bit heavy i think. right now the tank is
still on the gun but i want to move it to my back (on my RAP4 vest)





29 Jul 2006 15:37:19
Matt Moriearty
Re: different air

unforgiven 33 wrote:
> it seems to me that tippman guns work better off of C02 than they do off
> of HPA.
> do they really? and if they do, why? i'm seriously considering switching
> to compressed air and running a remote (don't say it tony LoL) but don't
> want to spend the extra cash on the new tank if it doesn't make it more
> efficient or effective. would it make a difference if i also added a low
> pressure mod/upgrade?
>
> last week i ran out of air in the middle of a bad situation. it didn't
> do me any favors if ya know what i mean. i'm still getting used to my
> new a-5 and i think i just overshot what my 16 oz. Co² tank would
> allow. a 20 oz. would be a bit heavy i think. right now the tank is
> still on the gun but i want to move it to my back (on my RAP4 vest)
>
>

Yeah, the A5 can be a serious gas hog.

As for HPA over Co2, compressed air is always more consistant. The A5
tends to run better off Co2--and take this with a grain of salt, I'm no
fluid engineer--because, when you have some flow problems (air doing a
180 to actually get to the ball comes to mind) it can suck in some
liquid and let it turn to gas right inside the valve.

Your best bet for the A5: a spring kit, a reg, and a rear velocity
adjuster. Leave the velocity screw wide open and use the spring tension
to adjust. Less wasted energy=better efficiency.

As for the remote, that's a personal thing. I can use one on my
Rainmaker, but not on my pump Spyder. Balance thing, and it the much
lighter Spyder just feels frontheavy. Throws off my 'aim sense'.


29 Jul 2006 16:29:16
Hardtime
Re: different air

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 15:37:19 GMT, Matt Moriearty
<MathU41@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:

>unforgiven 33 wrote:
>> it seems to me that tippman guns work better off of C02 than they do off
>> of HPA.
>> do they really? and if they do, why? i'm seriously considering switching
>> to compressed air and running a remote (don't say it tony LoL) but don't
>> want to spend the extra cash on the new tank if it doesn't make it more
>> efficient or effective. would it make a difference if i also added a low
>> pressure mod/upgrade?
>>
>> last week i ran out of air in the middle of a bad situation. it didn't
>> do me any favors if ya know what i mean. i'm still getting used to my
>> new a-5 and i think i just overshot what my 16 oz. Co² tank would
>> allow. a 20 oz. would be a bit heavy i think. right now the tank is
>> still on the gun but i want to move it to my back (on my RAP4 vest)
>>
>>
>
>Yeah, the A5 can be a serious gas hog.
>
>As for HPA over Co2, compressed air is always more consistant. The A5
>tends to run better off Co2--and take this with a grain of salt, I'm no
>fluid engineer--because, when you have some flow problems (air doing a
>180 to actually get to the ball comes to mind) it can suck in some
>liquid and let it turn to gas right inside the valve.
>
>Your best bet for the A5: a spring kit, a reg, and a rear velocity
>adjuster. Leave the velocity screw wide open and use the spring tension
>to adjust. Less wasted energy=better efficiency.
>
>As for the remote, that's a personal thing. I can use one on my
>Rainmaker, but not on my pump Spyder. Balance thing, and it the much
>lighter Spyder just feels frontheavy. Throws off my 'aim sense'.

I tend to squeeze a few more shots out of my CO2 tank than my HPA
tanks so I stick with them except in colder temperatures I gladly
switch back to the HPA. Below is a very good link reference the CO2
and Compressed Air:

http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/Co2orN2.asp

Below is a chart that I copied from the link below:
http://sabot2004.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=shotstank&action=display&thread=1076373369&page=1

CARBON DIOXIDE

HERE IS A GUIDE FOR CO2 SHOTS PER OZ. AT 80º F.

65 TO 70 SHOTS PER OUNCE
7oz TANK = 466 SHOTS
9oz TANK = 600 SHOTS
12oz TANK = 800 SHOTS
20oz TANK = 1333 SHOTS (not out of an A5)


COMPRESSED AIR

HERE IS A GUIDE FOR HPA SHOTS PER CUBIC INCH.

3000psi 4500psi
10 SHOTS PER ci. 15 SHOTS PER ci.
47ci = 470 SHOTS 68ci = 1020 SHOTS
68ci = 680 SHOTS 88ci = 1320 SHOTS
88ci = 880 SHOTS 114ci = 1720 SHOTS
114ci = 1140 SHOTS


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



31 Jul 2006 06:56:01
mad8
Re: different air


Hardtime wrote:
> COMPRESSED AIR
>
> HERE IS A GUIDE FOR HPA SHOTS PER CUBIC INCH.
>
> 3000psi 4500psi
> 10 SHOTS PER ci. 15 SHOTS PER ci.
> 47ci = 470 SHOTS 68ci = 1020 SHOTS
> 68ci = 680 SHOTS 88ci = 1320 SHOTS
> 88ci = 880 SHOTS 114ci = 1720 SHOTS
> 114ci = 1140 SHOTS

um, not sure what gun that is for, but i don't think i can get 1000
shots out of my 68/4500 with any of my 2 high-end markers ('05 ego and
dm5) maybe get 800 out of the dm5 and 900 out of the ego on a 4500
fill...
if these are the numbers i'm getting, i doubt that spyders and
tippmanns will do much better....



31 Jul 2006 07:27:51
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

that is an old list of numbers that all the new guys post. it is really
outdated. your right about your guns...of course when you just shoot plunk
plunk plunk you may get some better numbers but who shoots like that...these
guys all say they use i bag a day (500) balls but i have never yet seen any
new guy conserve paint...what i do see is a very nervous person and gun
shaking shooting as fast as he can... ;-)
"mad8" <mad8vskillz@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1154354161.688751.239390@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Hardtime wrote:
> > COMPRESSED AIR
> >
> > HERE IS A GUIDE FOR HPA SHOTS PER CUBIC INCH.
> >
> > 3000psi 4500psi
> > 10 SHOTS PER ci. 15 SHOTS PER ci.
> > 47ci = 470 SHOTS 68ci = 1020 SHOTS
> > 68ci = 680 SHOTS 88ci = 1320 SHOTS
> > 88ci = 880 SHOTS 114ci = 1720 SHOTS
> > 114ci = 1140 SHOTS
>
> um, not sure what gun that is for, but i don't think i can get 1000
> shots out of my 68/4500 with any of my 2 high-end markers ('05 ego and
> dm5) maybe get 800 out of the dm5 and 900 out of the ego on a 4500
> fill...
> if these are the numbers i'm getting, i doubt that spyders and
> tippmanns will do much better....
>




31 Jul 2006 10:31:39
Hardtime
Re: different air

On 31 Jul 2006 06:56:01 -0700, "mad8" <mad8vskillz@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>Hardtime wrote:
>> COMPRESSED AIR
>>
>> HERE IS A GUIDE FOR HPA SHOTS PER CUBIC INCH.
>>
>> 3000psi 4500psi
>> 10 SHOTS PER ci. 15 SHOTS PER ci.
>> 47ci = 470 SHOTS 68ci = 1020 SHOTS
>> 68ci = 680 SHOTS 88ci = 1320 SHOTS
>> 88ci = 880 SHOTS 114ci = 1720 SHOTS
>> 114ci = 1140 SHOTS
>
>um, not sure what gun that is for, but i don't think i can get 1000
>shots out of my 68/4500 with any of my 2 high-end markers ('05 ego and
>dm5) maybe get 800 out of the dm5 and 900 out of the ego on a 4500
>fill...
>if these are the numbers i'm getting, i doubt that spyders and
>tippmanns will do much better....


This is on the average. It definitely does not apply to an A-5 but it
gives you a ball park figure. You may want to think about cleaning
your marker up a little if you are way out of range of these figures.

Have you thought about polishing the internals and such? This makes
it easier for your O-rings and such to maintain a seal during their
movement. In other words the parts that move over rough surfaces may
lead to undue air loss. It is just a thought. You will probably find
those that will argue with this but I have seen improvements through
the polishing of internals of several markers (different makes and
models). You will need to be careful though as to ensure that you do
not overdue it. I have a buddy that attempted to polish his and over
bored one side of the main bolt tube. He ended up having to reorder
half of the frame to correct.


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



31 Jul 2006 15:02:26
Matt Moriearty
Re: different air

Hardtime wrote:

> Have you thought about polishing the internals and such? This makes
> it easier for your O-rings and such to maintain a seal during their
> movement. In other words the parts that move over rough surfaces may
> lead to undue air loss. It is just a thought. You will probably find
> those that will argue with this but I have seen improvements through
> the polishing of internals of several markers (different makes and
> models). You will need to be careful though as to ensure that you do
> not overdue it. I have a buddy that attempted to polish his and over
> bored one side of the main bolt tube. He ended up having to reorder
> half of the frame to correct.

Most of the high-end markers are pretty darn good on the internals. Not
that a touch of rubbing compound would really *hurt*.

As for the effiency, some well-tuned Intimidator knockoffes (like the
Ego) could get 1000 out of a 68ci tank, and I've heard of plenty of
nicely tuned Vikings and Excaliburs getting a case, give or take a
couple hundred. I'm considering grabbing one when I've got the money,
but I've got so many projects right now I need to finish. My Rainmaker,
my project 'gun (recently labelled 'Sin'), and I'll be soldering up some
old-school brass soon.

I'll post some pictures on the forums when I get these things done. If
anyone wants in on some updated Sheridan goodness after I'm done with
the first brass project, I'll let the group in on them for the price of
materials and shipping. :)


31 Jul 2006 08:55:37
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

I had a half milled Viking and on a 45x45 i got 1000 aprox shots..but the
gun was just not what i wanted at the time...
"Matt Moriearty" <MathU41@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:6Yozg.9392$dj2.7674@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Hardtime wrote:
>
> > Have you thought about polishing the internals and such? This makes
> > it easier for your O-rings and such to maintain a seal during their
> > movement. In other words the parts that move over rough surfaces may
> > lead to undue air loss. It is just a thought. You will probably find
> > those that will argue with this but I have seen improvements through
> > the polishing of internals of several markers (different makes and
> > models). You will need to be careful though as to ensure that you do
> > not overdue it. I have a buddy that attempted to polish his and over
> > bored one side of the main bolt tube. He ended up having to reorder
> > half of the frame to correct.
>
> Most of the high-end markers are pretty darn good on the internals. Not
> that a touch of rubbing compound would really *hurt*.
>
> As for the effiency, some well-tuned Intimidator knockoffes (like the
> Ego) could get 1000 out of a 68ci tank, and I've heard of plenty of
> nicely tuned Vikings and Excaliburs getting a case, give or take a
> couple hundred. I'm considering grabbing one when I've got the money,
> but I've got so many projects right now I need to finish. My Rainmaker,
> my project 'gun (recently labelled 'Sin'), and I'll be soldering up some
> old-school brass soon.
>
> I'll post some pictures on the forums when I get these things done. If
> anyone wants in on some updated Sheridan goodness after I'm done with
> the first brass project, I'll let the group in on them for the price of
> materials and shipping. :)




31 Jul 2006 09:27:41
Big Habeeb
Re: different air

All the numbers are great to see, but what it comes down to is this:
If you come off the field with enough gas to keep going, you didn't
shoot enough. (And yes, I'm one of the idiots who used to lug around a
110ci 4500psi tank lol)

Big Habeeb (a.k.a. Mitch)
Coming soon to a town near you!
Tony Sr. wrote:
> I had a half milled Viking and on a 45x45 i got 1000 aprox shots..but the
> gun was just not what i wanted at the time...
> "Matt Moriearty" <MathU41@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:6Yozg.9392$dj2.7674@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Hardtime wrote:
> >
> > > Have you thought about polishing the internals and such? This makes
> > > it easier for your O-rings and such to maintain a seal during their
> > > movement. In other words the parts that move over rough surfaces may
> > > lead to undue air loss. It is just a thought. You will probably find
> > > those that will argue with this but I have seen improvements through
> > > the polishing of internals of several markers (different makes and
> > > models). You will need to be careful though as to ensure that you do
> > > not overdue it. I have a buddy that attempted to polish his and over
> > > bored one side of the main bolt tube. He ended up having to reorder
> > > half of the frame to correct.
> >
> > Most of the high-end markers are pretty darn good on the internals. Not
> > that a touch of rubbing compound would really *hurt*.
> >
> > As for the effiency, some well-tuned Intimidator knockoffes (like the
> > Ego) could get 1000 out of a 68ci tank, and I've heard of plenty of
> > nicely tuned Vikings and Excaliburs getting a case, give or take a
> > couple hundred. I'm considering grabbing one when I've got the money,
> > but I've got so many projects right now I need to finish. My Rainmaker,
> > my project 'gun (recently labelled 'Sin'), and I'll be soldering up some
> > old-school brass soon.
> >
> > I'll post some pictures on the forums when I get these things done. If
> > anyone wants in on some updated Sheridan goodness after I'm done with
> > the first brass project, I'll let the group in on them for the price of
> > materials and shipping. :)



31 Jul 2006 17:56:16
Matt Moriearty
Re: different air

Big Habeeb wrote:
> All the numbers are great to see, but what it comes down to is this:
> If you come off the field with enough gas to keep going, you didn't
> shoot enough. (And yes, I'm one of the idiots who used to lug around a
> 110ci 4500psi tank lol)

Bah! Bah, I say! I'd have to put a leash on one of the kiddies to carry
enough paint to run out of air from Mr. Rogers.

Plus, I'd need like a week. The one thing I couldn't figure out is an
autotrigger.


31 Jul 2006 12:58:54
Big Habeeb
Re: different air

Fortunately for me I've cut down drastically, as I learned to play with
teams that have more than one hoser. My original team had 4 speedy
guys who loved and were good at moving, but at any given event I would
shoot off pretty close to 5 cases (in about 8 games), while they would
go through MAYBE a quarter of a case each.
Thankfully that particular team went with the communal paint theory:
we'd all kick in for all the paint and take as needed...they all
realized it wasn't fair to make me drop 500 bucks on paint to keep
their asses clean.
On the rare occasions I kick into a tourney now, I don't even carry
anywhere near as much as I used to (formerly 6x140s, plus a hopper
full). Now I'm down to 4x140s, plus a hopperfull, and if I go through
all of it, I'm slightly disgusted by myself. Atl east a 68 4500 is
enough air nowadays...I blame the old day hosing on my turbo
shocker...it just liked to be fired.

Big Habeeb (a.k.a. Mitch)
Coming soon to a town near you!

Matt Moriearty wrote:
> Big Habeeb wrote:
> > All the numbers are great to see, but what it comes down to is this:
> > If you come off the field with enough gas to keep going, you didn't
> > shoot enough. (And yes, I'm one of the idiots who used to lug around a
> > 110ci 4500psi tank lol)
>
> Bah! Bah, I say! I'd have to put a leash on one of the kiddies to carry
> enough paint to run out of air from Mr. Rogers.
>
> Plus, I'd need like a week. The one thing I couldn't figure out is an
> autotrigger.



31 Jul 2006 21:16:39
DeathX
Re: different air

I have an ION that I upgraded to a lighter bolt(Redz), a QEV, and a Virtue
board.
I can now get 1600 shots from a 684500.
The operating pressure is at 140psi.
The dwell is down to 12 with no drop off.
And it fires at around 27bps.


01 Aug 2006 13:07:59
Dave Lyon
Re: different air


> hey what's that on your back that looks like a telephone cord ? ;-)


You think these kids are old enough to remember telephones with cords!? :)




01 Aug 2006 09:20:51
Hardtime
Re: different air

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:07:59 GMT, "Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com >
wrote:

>
>> hey what's that on your back that looks like a telephone cord ? ;-)
>
>
>You think these kids are old enough to remember telephones with cords!? :)
>
Are you talking about Land Lines? I threw away my last rotary dial at
least 15-20 years ago. The new phone switches were having problems
with the break switches and stuff.


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



01 Aug 2006 07:02:44
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

Dave thx for making me laugh early in the morning ;-)
"Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:OmIzg.67560$FQ1.41695@attbi_s71...
>
> > hey what's that on your back that looks like a telephone cord ? ;-)
>
>
> You think these kids are old enough to remember telephones with cords!?
:)
>
>




01 Aug 2006 12:17:18
Matt Moriearty
Re: different air

Big Habeeb wrote:
> Fortunately for me I've cut down drastically, as I learned to play with
> teams that have more than one hoser. My original team had 4 speedy
> guys who loved and were good at moving, but at any given event I would
> shoot off pretty close to 5 cases (in about 8 games), while they would
> go through MAYBE a quarter of a case each.
> Thankfully that particular team went with the communal paint theory:
> we'd all kick in for all the paint and take as needed...they all
> realized it wasn't fair to make me drop 500 bucks on paint to keep
> their asses clean.
> On the rare occasions I kick into a tourney now, I don't even carry
> anywhere near as much as I used to (formerly 6x140s, plus a hopper
> full). Now I'm down to 4x140s, plus a hopperfull, and if I go through
> all of it, I'm slightly disgusted by myself. Atl east a 68 4500 is
> enough air nowadays...I blame the old day hosing on my turbo
> shocker...it just liked to be fired.

I usually buy half a case at a time, and very rarely need more. Of
course, I usually play pump, or really slow shots from my A5. I like to aim.

I'd make a horrible tourney player.


01 Aug 2006 12:50:47
Big Habeeb
Re: different air

What is this land line of which you speak? I think my grandpa had one
of those...
It's up in his attic next to the betamax and 8 track player.

Not to change topic, but you know how far things have come when my 3
and a half year old found a casette the other day and asked what it
was. CDs he knows...DVDs he knows...he even knows CD-Roms...but
casettes? Nope.

Big Habeeb (a.k.a. Mitch)
Coming soon to a town near you!

Hardtime wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:07:59 GMT, "Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >> hey what's that on your back that looks like a telephone cord ? ;-)
> >
> >
> >You think these kids are old enough to remember telephones with cords!? =
:)
> >
> Are you talking about Land Lines? I threw away my last rotary dial at
> least 15-20 years ago. The new phone switches were having problems
> with the break switches and stuff.
>
>
> (=AF`=B7._Hardtime_.=B7=B4=AF)
>=20
> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



07 Aug 2006 06:40:36
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

no way Jose...1600 shots from a 68x45...you may have a few mods but no
way...sorry that's is 9 plus pods lol
"DeathX" <crawford@netcarrier.com > wrote in message
news:44ce7337$0$59190$ad3619e8@news.netcarrier.net...
> I have an ION that I upgraded to a lighter bolt(Redz), a QEV, and a Virtue
> board.
> I can now get 1600 shots from a 684500.
> The operating pressure is at 140psi.
> The dwell is down to 12 with no drop off.
> And it fires at around 27bps.



07 Aug 2006 21:41:26
Nobby
Re: different air

Sorry Tony, but the Odyssey RPM air ram marker claims 1700 or more shots
from a 68- 4500 tank so it maybe possible..

http://www.888paintball.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1882621/vpcsid/0/SFV/30842

Nobby

Never let the bastards grind you down...
Think positive and get even!!!


"Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net > wrote in message
news:npHBg.193$cw.81@fed1read03...
> no way Jose...1600 shots from a 68x45...you may have a few mods but no
> way...sorry that's is 9 plus pods lol
> "DeathX" <crawford@netcarrier.com> wrote in message
> news:44ce7337$0$59190$ad3619e8@news.netcarrier.net...
>> I have an ION that I upgraded to a lighter bolt(Redz), a QEV, and a
>> Virtue
>> board.
>> I can now get 1600 shots from a 684500.
>> The operating pressure is at 140psi.
>> The dwell is down to 12 with no drop off.
>> And it fires at around 27bps.
>




07 Aug 2006 15:05:11
Big Habeeb
Re: different air

Emphasis on 'claims'.
I'll believe it when I see it. As I recall the 'dragun' also claimed
23+ balls per second. The NOVA claimed to be a revolution in paintball
operations, and some jackass who claimed he was looking for free or
cheap gear lated claimed to be a pro player.

So much for claims.

Big Habeeb (a.k.a. Mitch)
Coming soon to a town near you!

Nobby wrote:
> Sorry Tony, but the Odyssey RPM air ram marker claims 1700 or more shots
> from a 68- 4500 tank so it maybe possible..
>
> http://www.888paintball.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1882621/vpcsid/0/SFV/30842
>
> Nobby
>
> Never let the bastards grind you down...
> Think positive and get even!!!
>
>
> "Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:npHBg.193$cw.81@fed1read03...
> > no way Jose...1600 shots from a 68x45...you may have a few mods but no
> > way...sorry that's is 9 plus pods lol
> > "DeathX" <crawford@netcarrier.com> wrote in message
> > news:44ce7337$0$59190$ad3619e8@news.netcarrier.net...
> >> I have an ION that I upgraded to a lighter bolt(Redz), a QEV, and a
> >> Virtue
> >> board.
> >> I can now get 1600 shots from a 684500.
> >> The operating pressure is at 140psi.
> >> The dwell is down to 12 with no drop off.
> >> And it fires at around 27bps.
> >



07 Aug 2006 15:17:06
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

that is another one of Geno's BS articles...NPS
"Nobby" <nobbyondanet@ntlworld.com > wrote in message
news:asOBg.3971$Cz6.570@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
> Sorry Tony, but the Odyssey RPM air ram marker claims 1700 or more shots
> from a 68- 4500 tank so it maybe possible..
>
>
http://www.888paintball.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1882621/vpcsid/0/SFV/30842
>
> Nobby
>
> Never let the bastards grind you down...
> Think positive and get even!!!
>
>
> "Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:npHBg.193$cw.81@fed1read03...
> > no way Jose...1600 shots from a 68x45...you may have a few mods but no
> > way...sorry that's is 9 plus pods lol
> > "DeathX" <crawford@netcarrier.com> wrote in message
> > news:44ce7337$0$59190$ad3619e8@news.netcarrier.net...
> >> I have an ION that I upgraded to a lighter bolt(Redz), a QEV, and a
> >> Virtue
> >> board.
> >> I can now get 1600 shots from a 684500.
> >> The operating pressure is at 140psi.
> >> The dwell is down to 12 with no drop off.
> >> And it fires at around 27bps.
> >
>
>



07 Aug 2006 16:33:07
PBDepot
Re: different air


unforgiven 33 wrote:
> it seems to me that tippman guns work better off of C02 than they do off
> of HPA.
> do they really? and if they do, why? i'm seriously considering switching
> to compressed air and running a remote (don't say it tony LoL) but don't
> want to spend the extra cash on the new tank if it doesn't make it more
> efficient or effective. would it make a difference if i also added a low
> pressure mod/upgrade?
>
> last week i ran out of air in the middle of a bad situation. it didn't
> do me any favors if ya know what i mean. i'm still getting used to my
> new a-5 and i think i just overshot what my 16 oz. Co=B2 tank would
> allow. a 20 oz. would be a bit heavy i think. right now the tank is
> still on the gun but i want to move it to my back (on my RAP4 vest)

I sell and modify many A-5's in my store, and it's also the marker I've
been using for a couple years now. My experience is that you can either
run an A-5 off CO2 with a nice 6 or 8 stage expansion chamber and it
will run very well and be pretty gas efficient. Or you can use
Tippmann's A-5 Low Pressure kit and run a low pressure bottle and reg
off the gun. This is ultimately the most desired set up but it ends up
costing a few hundred dollars more then the CO2 route, and you really
don't get that many more shots.

I still use CO2 and the Trinity AK-47 Banana clip 8-stage expansion
chamber w a remote line and the gun runs nearly flawless. As well as
giving me around 900 shots off a 20oz tank, and about 750 off a 16oz.
The remote definitely helps the CO2 expansion, but the 8-stage
expansion chamber is really the meat and potatos of the operation. The
Remote Line will help, but it's really not necessary. So, I would only
get a Remote if you want the tank off the gun and nothing else.

I've thought about going to compressed air many times as well as
discussed it with the many customers who have bought A-5's, and our
general consensus is that CO2 works just fine. You will get a few more
shots per volume with a compressed air tank and low pressure set up,
but not many. Of course with Comp Air you could just get a 4500 tank
and that would allow you to have more shots then if you were using a 20
oz tank. I guess it mostly depends on how much money you want to waste
on your A-5 to slightly increase the performance, and be able to carry
a bottle with potentialy more shots.

Of course any other marker and I would be telling you compressed air
all the way. But Tippmann's are freak guns, and freaks live by their
own rules. Why this is... I dunno. I would really like to read up about
why Tipmann's are so good on CO2 when nearly every other marker isn't.
Maybe I'll call up the Tippmann techs in Indiana tomorrow and try to
get some real answers.



08 Aug 2006 00:16:45
Matt Moriearty
Re: different air

Big Habeeb wrote:
> Emphasis on 'claims'.
> I'll believe it when I see it. As I recall the 'dragun' also claimed
> 23+ balls per second. The NOVA claimed to be a revolution in paintball
> operations, and some jackass who claimed he was looking for free or
> cheap gear lated claimed to be a pro player.
>
> So much for claims.

To be fair, the Dragun can *cycle* that fast--if you can make it--and
the Nova evolved to the Matrix, Ion and new Shocker. Not a revolution,
but big.


07 Aug 2006 17:22:30
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

the patent on the spool valve for the matrix was done long before the Nova
was made.
"Matt Moriearty" <MathU41@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:NJQBg.9327$9.3608@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Big Habeeb wrote:
> > Emphasis on 'claims'.
> > I'll believe it when I see it. As I recall the 'dragun' also claimed
> > 23+ balls per second. The NOVA claimed to be a revolution in paintball
> > operations, and some jackass who claimed he was looking for free or
> > cheap gear lated claimed to be a pro player.
> >
> > So much for claims.
>
> To be fair, the Dragun can *cycle* that fast--if you can make it--and
> the Nova evolved to the Matrix, Ion and new Shocker. Not a revolution,
> but big.



08 Aug 2006 11:26:36
Matt Moriearty
Re: different air

Tony Sr. wrote:
> the patent on the spool valve for the matrix was done long before the Nova
> was made.

Yes, but the Nova's prototype was called the Matrix--IIRC--and was
renamed for sale. It also exchanged hands from the original manufacturer
to Air Star or whoever sold it.

I'm sure the Nova wasn't the first spool valver. But it was the first
reliable, mass-marketed one. Plus, it makes this *cool* 'bloop' sound
when it fires.


08 Aug 2006 08:45:39
Hardtime
Re: different air

On 7 Aug 2006 16:33:07 -0700, "PBDepot" <chuckb@paintball-depot.com >
wrote:

>
>unforgiven 33 wrote:
>> it seems to me that tippman guns work better off of C02 than they do off
>> of HPA.
>> do they really? and if they do, why? i'm seriously considering switching
>> to compressed air and running a remote (don't say it tony LoL) but don't
>> want to spend the extra cash on the new tank if it doesn't make it more
>> efficient or effective. would it make a difference if i also added a low
>> pressure mod/upgrade?
>>
>> last week i ran out of air in the middle of a bad situation. it didn't
>> do me any favors if ya know what i mean. i'm still getting used to my
>> new a-5 and i think i just overshot what my 16 oz. Co² tank would
>> allow. a 20 oz. would be a bit heavy i think. right now the tank is
>> still on the gun but i want to move it to my back (on my RAP4 vest)
>
>I sell and modify many A-5's in my store, and it's also the marker I've
>been using for a couple years now. My experience is that you can either
>run an A-5 off CO2 with a nice 6 or 8 stage expansion chamber and it
>will run very well and be pretty gas efficient. Or you can use
>Tippmann's A-5 Low Pressure kit and run a low pressure bottle and reg
>off the gun. This is ultimately the most desired set up but it ends up
>costing a few hundred dollars more then the CO2 route, and you really
>don't get that many more shots.

I use CO2 most of the time and an 8 stage expansion chamber and my
marker is pretty much dead on every time. Now it is true if I sustain
a high rate of fire for an extended period of time (as in a hundred or
more rounds) my rounds vary a little bit but not much.

>I still use CO2 and the Trinity AK-47 Banana clip 8-stage expansion
>chamber w a remote line and the gun runs nearly flawless. As well as
>giving me around 900 shots off a 20oz tank, and about 750 off a 16oz.
>The remote definitely helps the CO2 expansion, but the 8-stage
>expansion chamber is really the meat and potatos of the operation. The
>Remote Line will help, but it's really not necessary. So, I would only
>get a Remote if you want the tank off the gun and nothing else.
>
>I've thought about going to compressed air many times as well as
>discussed it with the many customers who have bought A-5's, and our
>general consensus is that CO2 works just fine. You will get a few more
>shots per volume with a compressed air tank and low pressure set up,
>but not many. Of course with Comp Air you could just get a 4500 tank
>and that would allow you to have more shots then if you were using a 20
>oz tank. I guess it mostly depends on how much money you want to waste
>on your A-5 to slightly increase the performance, and be able to carry
>a bottle with potentialy more shots.
>
>Of course any other marker and I would be telling you compressed air
>all the way. But Tippmann's are freak guns, and freaks live by their
>own rules. Why this is... I dunno. I would really like to read up about
>why Tipmann's are so good on CO2 when nearly every other marker isn't.
>Maybe I'll call up the Tippmann techs in Indiana tomorrow and try to
>get some real answers.

I have had other markers but I always fall back on the Tippmanns as I
know they will always be there and always work. I tend to only buy
things that will last me at least 10-15 years or more and I know the
Tippmanns will be there for me. :-)

When you buy a toy you do not expect them to be there forever as you
get tired of them and they break. I tend to not buy toys that would
be big or little. :-)


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



08 Aug 2006 14:10:46
Dave Lyon
Re: different air

.

I've thought about going to compressed air many times as well as
discussed it with the many customers who have bought A-5's, and our
general consensus is that CO2 works just fine. You will get a few more
shots per volume with a compressed air tank and low pressure set up,
but not many. Of course with Comp Air you could just get a 4500 tank
and that would allow you to have more shots then if you were using a 20
oz tank.


I think you need to hook some compressed air up to your Tippmann. Then,
actually count the shots. There is no way you're going to get more shots
from a compressed air tank than from a CO2 tank given the same volume unless
you run liquid into your gun.

Once your expansion chamber gets cold, it does almost nothing. Your remote
line is a better expansion chamber than anything else I've tryed, seen, or
even built for myself. When CO2 gets cold, the pressure drops if it gets
cold enough, you can't turn it back into a gass. The only way to raise the
pressure is to warm it back up. Your expansion chamber and your remote are
simply radiators that allow the CO2 to suck heat. The more surface area the
CO2 is exposed to, the quicker it warms up. The "chambers" inside an
expansion chamber are mostly a marketing ploy. They really only serve 2
benifits. They can keep liquid from sloshing into the valve like a simple
baffel would do, and they store some heat that can be given to the CO2. Once
that heat is used, your expansion chamber is only as good as it's surface
area to the outside. There is much more surface area in a remote than there
is in an expansion chamber.





08 Aug 2006 07:18:54
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

yes but remotes are for chicks ;-)
"Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:GX0Cg.124243$1i1.83212@attbi_s72...
> .
>
> I've thought about going to compressed air many times as well as
> discussed it with the many customers who have bought A-5's, and our
> general consensus is that CO2 works just fine. You will get a few more
> shots per volume with a compressed air tank and low pressure set up,
> but not many. Of course with Comp Air you could just get a 4500 tank
> and that would allow you to have more shots then if you were using a 20
> oz tank.
>
>
> I think you need to hook some compressed air up to your Tippmann. Then,
> actually count the shots. There is no way you're going to get more shots
> from a compressed air tank than from a CO2 tank given the same volume
unless
> you run liquid into your gun.
>
> Once your expansion chamber gets cold, it does almost nothing. Your remote
> line is a better expansion chamber than anything else I've tryed, seen, or
> even built for myself. When CO2 gets cold, the pressure drops if it gets
> cold enough, you can't turn it back into a gass. The only way to raise the
> pressure is to warm it back up. Your expansion chamber and your remote are
> simply radiators that allow the CO2 to suck heat. The more surface area
the
> CO2 is exposed to, the quicker it warms up. The "chambers" inside an
> expansion chamber are mostly a marketing ploy. They really only serve 2
> benifits. They can keep liquid from sloshing into the valve like a simple
> baffel would do, and they store some heat that can be given to the CO2.
Once
> that heat is used, your expansion chamber is only as good as it's surface
> area to the outside. There is much more surface area in a remote than
there
> is in an expansion chamber.
>
>
>



08 Aug 2006 14:47:26
Dave Lyon
Re: different air


"Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net > wrote in message
news:f31Cg.267$cw.153@fed1read03...
> yes but remotes are for chicks ;-)

Yep, chicks that are having trouble with liquid CO2. :)




08 Aug 2006 08:10:53
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

when you guys just going to go the hpa route...the div 1 team from the
tippman factory use hpa..why ? ;-)
"Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:2u1Cg.80006$FQ1.67828@attbi_s71...
>
> "Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:f31Cg.267$cw.153@fed1read03...
> > yes but remotes are for chicks ;-)
>
> Yep, chicks that are having trouble with liquid CO2. :)
>
>



08 Aug 2006 08:37:33
Big Habeeb
Re: different air

Actually their prototype is still in use in many arenas around the
world today...to fire t-shirts into the crowd.

Big Habeeb (a.k.a. Mitch)
Coming soon to a town near you!

Matt Moriearty wrote:
> Tony Sr. wrote:
> > the patent on the spool valve for the matrix was done long before the Nova
> > was made.
>
> Yes, but the Nova's prototype was called the Matrix--IIRC--and was
> renamed for sale. It also exchanged hands from the original manufacturer
> to Air Star or whoever sold it.
>
> I'm sure the Nova wasn't the first spool valver. But it was the first
> reliable, mass-marketed one. Plus, it makes this *cool* 'bloop' sound
> when it fires.



08 Aug 2006 08:56:10
mad8
Re: different air

"Works off 225-300"

ok, my matrixes work off about 100 psi... don't get over 1000 shots.
the ion works off 120-150, don't get over 1000 shots.
granted, spool valves are generally more airhogs than poppet valves,
but i call bs.

Nobby wrote:
> Sorry Tony, but the Odyssey RPM air ram marker claims 1700 or more shots
> from a 68- 4500 tank so it maybe possible..
>
> http://www.888paintball.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1882621/vpcsid/0/SFV/30842
>
> Nobby
>
> Never let the bastards grind you down...
> Think positive and get even!!!
>
>
> "Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:npHBg.193$cw.81@fed1read03...
> > no way Jose...1600 shots from a 68x45...you may have a few mods but no
> > way...sorry that's is 9 plus pods lol
> > "DeathX" <crawford@netcarrier.com> wrote in message
> > news:44ce7337$0$59190$ad3619e8@news.netcarrier.net...
> >> I have an ION that I upgraded to a lighter bolt(Redz), a QEV, and a
> >> Virtue
> >> board.
> >> I can now get 1600 shots from a 684500.
> >> The operating pressure is at 140psi.
> >> The dwell is down to 12 with no drop off.
> >> And it fires at around 27bps.
> >



08 Aug 2006 16:38:23
Dave Lyon
Re: different air


"Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net > wrote in message
news:ZP1Cg.269$cw.250@fed1read03...
> when you guys just going to go the hpa route...the div 1 team from the
> tippman factory use hpa..why ? ;-)

Why? because they have unlimited access to compressed air. Tippmanns are
great entry level guns, but they're gas hogs. I have 2 Tippmanns, and my son
has a third. We both use compressed air, but we also take a couple of scuba
tanks with us. For those people that don't have that luxury, CO2 might be a
better option. A couple of 20 ounce tanks will give most people more than
enough air for a day of woods ball at a much less expensive price than
compressed air.




08 Aug 2006 09:41:29
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

. point taken Dave..scubas are nice when the field permits it. ;-)
"Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:363Cg.80135$FQ1.68104@attbi_s71...
>
> "Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:ZP1Cg.269$cw.250@fed1read03...
> > when you guys just going to go the hpa route...the div 1 team from the
> > tippman factory use hpa..why ? ;-)
>
> Why? because they have unlimited access to compressed air. Tippmanns are
> great entry level guns, but they're gas hogs. I have 2 Tippmanns, and my
son
> has a third. We both use compressed air, but we also take a couple of
scuba
> tanks with us. For those people that don't have that luxury, CO2 might be
a
> better option. A couple of 20 ounce tanks will give most people more than
> enough air for a day of woods ball at a much less expensive price than
> compressed air.
>
>



08 Aug 2006 18:29:11
Dave Lyon
Re: different air


"Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net > wrote in message
news:W83Cg.272$cw.234@fed1read03...
> . point taken Dave..scubas are nice when the field permits it. ;-)

Field?

What's that?

:)

In my neck of the woods, 75% of all paintball is played on private land.
Yes, I made up the number, but I'll bet it's close based on the number of
customers I have.




08 Aug 2006 16:07:38
PBDepot
Re: different air


>Dave Lyon wrote:
>
> I think you need to hook some compressed air up to your Tippmann. Then,
> actually count the shots. There is no way you're going to get more shots
> from a compressed air tank than from a CO2 tank given the same volume unless
> you run liquid into your gun.

Well, liquid is always going to get in one fashion or another when
you're using CO2.
But what I meant is that running a A-5 low pressure set up with a low
pressure 4500 tank will give you more shots then just using a 20oz CO2
tank with an expansion chamber set up. There's more air per volume in a
4500 then you would get from a 20oz CO2 tank filled with liquid. So the
4500 with low pressure set up is the best way to get the most shots
from one single bottle without having to refill... and it's also the
most expensive.

> Once your expansion chamber gets cold, it does almost nothing. Your remote
> line is a better expansion chamber than anything else I've tryed, seen, or
> even built for myself.

Not from what I've experienced. The advantages over an expansion
chamber are that first they're usually all metal, which greatly helps
the liquid CO2 warm up and helps it from becoming so cold it loses it's
function. As well as the fact that most expansion chambers are used as
a front grip, so they are additionaly warmed by the heat of your hands.
I don't think I've ever held onto my remote while I played. ;-p
And the most important aspect... an expansion chamber is set up so that
any liquid CO2 that gets into a vertical expansion chamber just drains
safely down to the bottom, instead of entering your gun where it can
freeze and damage internal parts and cause inconsistencies. The remote
doesn't have that function which is why you still get a lot of liquid
just using a remote line only.

I could be wrong on some of this, but I've done quite a few tests and
have yet to see a remote line work as good as an expansion chamber. I
have to really hammer my A-5 with the 8-stage expansion chamber to get
it to start freezing up and letting some liquid in. With a remote...
well, there always seems to be liquid... so I don't see any real
comparison.



08 Aug 2006 21:24:12
Hardtime
Re: different air

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:10:46 GMT, "Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com >
wrote:

>.
>
>I've thought about going to compressed air many times as well as
>discussed it with the many customers who have bought A-5's, and our
>general consensus is that CO2 works just fine. You will get a few more
>shots per volume with a compressed air tank and low pressure set up,
>but not many. Of course with Comp Air you could just get a 4500 tank
>and that would allow you to have more shots then if you were using a 20
>oz tank.
>
>
>I think you need to hook some compressed air up to your Tippmann. Then,
>actually count the shots. There is no way you're going to get more shots
>from a compressed air tank than from a CO2 tank given the same volume unless
>you run liquid into your gun.
>
>Once your expansion chamber gets cold, it does almost nothing. Your remote
>line is a better expansion chamber than anything else I've tryed, seen, or
>even built for myself. When CO2 gets cold, the pressure drops if it gets
>cold enough, you can't turn it back into a gass. The only way to raise the
>pressure is to warm it back up. Your expansion chamber and your remote are
>simply radiators that allow the CO2 to suck heat. The more surface area the
>CO2 is exposed to, the quicker it warms up. The "chambers" inside an
>expansion chamber are mostly a marketing ploy. They really only serve 2
>benifits. They can keep liquid from sloshing into the valve like a simple
>baffel would do, and they store some heat that can be given to the CO2. Once
>that heat is used, your expansion chamber is only as good as it's surface
>area to the outside. There is much more surface area in a remote than there
>is in an expansion chamber.
>
I use the CO2 most of the time and just stay away from full Auto (very
wise as paint is not getting cheaper) and with my hot little hands on
the 8 stage I have no problems until winter and then I might through
the palmer or HPA on it. That way I am not carrying a popsicle in a
big firefight. :-)


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



08 Aug 2006 21:25:49
Hardtime
Re: different air

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:38:23 GMT, "Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com >
wrote:

>
>"Tony Sr." <amargio1@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:ZP1Cg.269$cw.250@fed1read03...
>> when you guys just going to go the hpa route...the div 1 team from the
>> tippman factory use hpa..why ? ;-)
>
>Why? because they have unlimited access to compressed air. Tippmanns are
>great entry level guns, but they're gas hogs. I have 2 Tippmanns, and my son
>has a third. We both use compressed air, but we also take a couple of scuba
>tanks with us. For those people that don't have that luxury, CO2 might be a
>better option. A couple of 20 ounce tanks will give most people more than
>enough air for a day of woods ball at a much less expensive price than
>compressed air.
>
I just carry a small weld tank for my refills instead of a Scuba
setup. I would hate to have an accident in the back of my vehicle if
you know what I mean. :-)


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



08 Aug 2006 21:30:20
Hardtime
Re: different air

On 8 Aug 2006 16:07:38 -0700, "PBDepot" <chuckb@paintball-depot.com >
wrote:

>
>>Dave Lyon wrote:
>>
>> I think you need to hook some compressed air up to your Tippmann. Then,
>> actually count the shots. There is no way you're going to get more shots
>> from a compressed air tank than from a CO2 tank given the same volume unless
>> you run liquid into your gun.
>
>Well, liquid is always going to get in one fashion or another when
>you're using CO2.

I normally have no problem with liquid unless I loan it to someone and
they play like a kid and fire it while pointing at the ground and
such.

>But what I meant is that running a A-5 low pressure set up with a low
>pressure 4500 tank will give you more shots then just using a 20oz CO2
>tank with an expansion chamber set up. There's more air per volume in a
>4500 then you would get from a 20oz CO2 tank filled with liquid. So the
>4500 with low pressure set up is the best way to get the most shots
>from one single bottle without having to refill... and it's also the
>most expensive.
>
>> Once your expansion chamber gets cold, it does almost nothing. Your remote
>> line is a better expansion chamber than anything else I've tryed, seen, or
>> even built for myself.
>
>Not from what I've experienced. The advantages over an expansion
>chamber are that first they're usually all metal, which greatly helps
>the liquid CO2 warm up and helps it from becoming so cold it loses it's
>function. As well as the fact that most expansion chambers are used as
>a front grip, so they are additionaly warmed by the heat of your hands.
>I don't think I've ever held onto my remote while I played. ;-p
>And the most important aspect... an expansion chamber is set up so that
>any liquid CO2 that gets into a vertical expansion chamber just drains
>safely down to the bottom, instead of entering your gun where it can
>freeze and damage internal parts and cause inconsistencies. The remote
>doesn't have that function which is why you still get a lot of liquid
>just using a remote line only.
>
>I could be wrong on some of this, but I've done quite a few tests and
>have yet to see a remote line work as good as an expansion chamber. I
>have to really hammer my A-5 with the 8-stage expansion chamber to get
>it to start freezing up and letting some liquid in. With a remote...
>well, there always seems to be liquid... so I don't see any real
>comparison.

Well put. See my marker at the link below my signature and you will
see my 8 stage as a forward grip on my A-5. Remember I am the one in
the cold that is still wearing nothing more than a cammo or jersey
shirt and I still warm the bottle and grip up in my arms/hands.


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



08 Aug 2006 20:01:06
PBDepot
Re: different air


>Hardtime wrote:
>
> Well put. See my marker at the link below my signature and you will
> see my 8 stage as a forward grip on my A-5. Remember I am the one in
> the cold that is still wearing nothing more than a cammo or jersey
> shirt and I still warm the bottle and grip up in my arms/hands.
>
>
> (=AF`=B7._Hardtime_.=B7=B4=AF)
>
> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88

Nice setup. I like how the A-5 vertical adapter you have on it puts the
Expansion Chamber in the best spot to be used as a grip. Two questions
though if you don't mind.

1=2E Do you have a Low pressure kit on the gun, or did you just use the
A-5 vertical adapter piece from it to move the location of the
expansion chamber?

2=2E What kind of double trigger setup is that? I've been using the A-5
with the new E-grip's with the W.A.S. boards and a JCS dual trigger
system from Blackpoint engineering, which is just incredible. Just
wondering.



09 Aug 2006 14:44:33
Dave Lyon
Re: different air


"PBDepot" <chuckb@paintball-depot.com > wrote in message
news:1155078458.456119.235090@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Dave Lyon wrote:
> >
> > I think you need to hook some compressed air up to your Tippmann. Then,
> > actually count the shots. There is no way you're going to get more shots
> > from a compressed air tank than from a CO2 tank given the same volume
unless
> > you run liquid into your gun.
>
> Well, liquid is always going to get in one fashion or another when
> you're using CO2.
> But what I meant is that running a A-5 low pressure set up with a low
> pressure 4500 tank will give you more shots then just using a 20oz CO2
> tank with an expansion chamber set up. There's more air per volume in a
> 4500 then you would get from a 20oz CO2 tank filled with liquid. So the
> 4500 with low pressure set up is the best way to get the most shots
> from one single bottle without having to refill... and it's also the
> most expensive.


Sorry, you're just wrong. Btw, if you're using a low pressure gun (under 450
psi) it has to be very cold to get liquid CO2 in your gun.


>
> > Once your expansion chamber gets cold, it does almost nothing. Your
remote
> > line is a better expansion chamber than anything else I've tryed, seen,
or
> > even built for myself.
>
> Not from what I've experienced. The advantages over an expansion
> chamber are that first they're usually all metal, which greatly helps
> the liquid CO2 warm up and helps it from becoming so cold it loses it's
> function.

That's true. Metal disipates heat faster than plastic.




As well as the fact that most expansion chambers are used as
> a front grip, so they are additionaly warmed by the heat of your hands.

Many players use gloves. That actually insulates the expansion chamber.


> I don't think I've ever held onto my remote while I played. ;-p
> And the most important aspect... an expansion chamber is set up so that
> any liquid CO2 that gets into a vertical expansion chamber just drains
> safely down to the bottom, instead of entering your gun where it can
> freeze and damage internal parts and cause inconsistencies.
> The remote doesn't have that function which is why you still get a lot of
liquid
> just using a remote line only.

Sure it does. Your tank is held on your belt, which is lower than your gun,
and the remote has coils. How much liquid will have to be in there to fill
all those coils? Given a chance, the CO2 would rather convert to a gas than
travel as a liquid.


>
> I could be wrong on some of this, but I've done quite a few tests and
> have yet to see a remote line work as good as an expansion chamber. I
> have to really hammer my A-5 with the 8-stage expansion chamber to get
> it to start freezing up and letting some liquid in. With a remote...
> well, there always seems to be liquid...

Turn your tank over. The valve should be up. :)




09 Aug 2006 14:51:15
Dave Lyon
Re: different air


> I use the CO2 most of the time and just stay away from full Auto (very
> wise as paint is not getting cheaper) and with my hot little hands on
> the 8 stage I have no problems until winter and then I might through
> the palmer or HPA on it. That way I am not carrying a popsicle in a
> big firefight. :-)
>
>
> (¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)
>
> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88
>

Tippmanns handle CO2 very well. They should operate fine in weather down to
around 40 deg without an expansion chamber at all. Assuming of course you
lay off the trigger every now and then. To really understand the difference,
try using a gun in cold weather with a little tighter fit on the seals.
Something like a Spyder. If you're below 40 degs with a spyder (using CO2),
you better be running low pressure, or a remote. I've "fixed" many guns in
cold weather by just adding a remote line. Even my old Pirhana did better
with a remote line than it did with an expansion chamber.

Don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against expansion chambers. But, they
just aren't as effective as a coiled remote.




09 Aug 2006 13:23:26
Hardtime
Re: different air

On 8 Aug 2006 20:01:06 -0700, "PBDepot" <chuckb@paintball-depot.com >
wrote:

>
>>Hardtime wrote:
>>
>> Well put. See my marker at the link below my signature and you will
>> see my 8 stage as a forward grip on my A-5. Remember I am the one in
>> the cold that is still wearing nothing more than a cammo or jersey
>> shirt and I still warm the bottle and grip up in my arms/hands.
>>
>>
>> (¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)
>>
>> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88
>
>Nice setup. I like how the A-5 vertical adapter you have on it puts the
>Expansion Chamber in the best spot to be used as a grip. Two questions
>though if you don't mind.
>
>1. Do you have a Low pressure kit on the gun, or did you just use the
>A-5 vertical adapter piece from it to move the location of the
>expansion chamber?

I have no Low Pressure kit on mine (I have drilled the rear bolt for
smoothness of operation and possible low pressure operation if desired
in the future). I also use a pro-seal front bolt and power tube. I
placed the expansion chamber on mine as to improve the CO2 control and
assist with gas expansion. The adapter places the expansion chamber to
the grip location so that when I am grabbing it my body heat also
helps the warming of the CO2 and conversion process. It helps
tremendously with my big hands also. If you look at others without
the vertical adapter it makes sense (for me at least) and improves the
appearance of the package. I can not comfortably get my big hands
around the grip with both the expansion chamber and grip on the
marker.


>2. What kind of double trigger setup is that? I've been using the A-5
>with the new E-grip's with the W.A.S. boards and a JCS dual trigger
>system from Blackpoint engineering, which is just incredible. Just
>wondering.

It is a Blade Trigger:
http://www.expertshot.com/tippmanna53.html < also vertical adapter <
or
http://www.specialopspaintball.com/shop/product_detail.asp?SKU=201+0007&CAT=107202301

IT again helps with my big hands and especially when I have my gloves
(ex-Large) on. The blade does not have the little rise in between the
fingers which is very good (I think) as I can to the one finger (Index
or middle) as my main trigger finger without interference from the
little rise that is supposed to simulate the finger separation. I
feel that my fingers will stay separated as I have no deformities
there. I got my boys the regular double triggers and then switched
them to the blade after they tried mine and liked it. It also gives
you less of a curve back towards the finger guard at the end like the
regular double triggers do. I have had both but favor this better.
There are a few different blade triggers out there and they are all
basically the same. It also comes with a little bit bigger trigger
guard than the regular double triggers which I personally feel is
better (especially wearing gloves). As a note the JCS Duel Trigger
has a little rise in the middle also just not as pronounced as the
regular double triggers.

I also have one of the earlier WAS boards in my E-Grip and love it.
You may want to upgrade to the QEV mod if you want just for cyclone
performance if they have not already improved the match up. Mine can
definitely blow the sustained 20bps mark with no problems and not be
shooting blanks/skip balls. Without it I start the skip at just below
18bps. I have also drilled a few holes in the top of my ricochet
hopper to reduce the lip pop (associated with a full hopper) from the
cyclone expansion blow. Full hoppers reduce the available space in
the hopper for pressure release and the ricochet hopper fits tightly
in the cyclone.


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



09 Aug 2006 13:46:37
Hardtime
Re: different air

On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:51:15 GMT, "Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com >
wrote:

>
>> I use the CO2 most of the time and just stay away from full Auto (very
>> wise as paint is not getting cheaper) and with my hot little hands on
>> the 8 stage I have no problems until winter and then I might through
>> the palmer or HPA on it. That way I am not carrying a popsicle in a
>> big firefight. :-)
>>
>>
>> (¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)
>>
>> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88
>>
>
>Tippmanns handle CO2 very well. They should operate fine in weather down to
>around 40 deg without an expansion chamber at all. Assuming of course you
>lay off the trigger every now and then. To really understand the difference,
>try using a gun in cold weather with a little tighter fit on the seals.
>Something like a Spyder. If you're below 40 degs with a spyder (using CO2),
>you better be running low pressure, or a remote. I've "fixed" many guns in
>cold weather by just adding a remote line. Even my old Pirhana did better
>with a remote line than it did with an expansion chamber.
>
>Don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against expansion chambers. But, they
>just aren't as effective as a coiled remote.
>
That is what I mean. I have polished all internals and changed all
seals for a better fit (very tight but moving fit). I get a
considerable amount of shots out of my 16 and 20 oz bottles but I do
not advertise as some people here would say not an A-5. I display the
old shot charts here in this NG as to give newbies a reference/basic
point to start with. Any improvements if in fact improvements to your
marker should improve your shot ratios (at least I feel this way). I
love to play in the cold as I do not sweat as bad :-). The summer in
Florida is not that great. I live further south than most of the rest
of the US and more so in a Tropical Climate so it gets hot and humid
so I welcome the cold any time


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



09 Aug 2006 20:30:12
Nobby
Re: different air

One of my mates uses A5 on HPA and had a leak from some where around the
Cyclone, but couldn't figger it out why. One of the site operators just
gave him a CO2 can and it stopped after that.

--
Nobby

Never let the bastards grind you down...
Think positive and get even!!!


"Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com > wrote in message
news:DDmCg.126311$1i1.34349@attbi_s72...
>
>> I use the CO2 most of the time and just stay away from full Auto (very
>> wise as paint is not getting cheaper) and with my hot little hands on
>> the 8 stage I have no problems until winter and then I might through
>> the palmer or HPA on it. That way I am not carrying a popsicle in a
>> big firefight. :-)
>>
>>
>> (¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)
>>
>> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88
>>
>
> Tippmanns handle CO2 very well. They should operate fine in weather down
> to
> around 40 deg without an expansion chamber at all. Assuming of course you
> lay off the trigger every now and then. To really understand the
> difference,
> try using a gun in cold weather with a little tighter fit on the seals.
> Something like a Spyder. If you're below 40 degs with a spyder (using
> CO2),
> you better be running low pressure, or a remote. I've "fixed" many guns in
> cold weather by just adding a remote line. Even my old Pirhana did better
> with a remote line than it did with an expansion chamber.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against expansion chambers. But, they
> just aren't as effective as a coiled remote.
>
>




09 Aug 2006 20:31:53
Nobby
Re: different air

Less friction = more efficiency

--
Nobby

Never let the bastards grind you down...
Think positive and get even!!!


"Hardtime" <hardtime11@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:6l6kd2lr3fs0pmsjmftut072pjhr80cbi9@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:51:15 GMT, "Dave Lyon" <lct.products@mchsi.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>> I use the CO2 most of the time and just stay away from full Auto (very
>>> wise as paint is not getting cheaper) and with my hot little hands on
>>> the 8 stage I have no problems until winter and then I might through
>>> the palmer or HPA on it. That way I am not carrying a popsicle in a
>>> big firefight. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> (¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)
>>>
>>> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88
>>>
>>
>>Tippmanns handle CO2 very well. They should operate fine in weather down
>>to
>>around 40 deg without an expansion chamber at all. Assuming of course you
>>lay off the trigger every now and then. To really understand the
>>difference,
>>try using a gun in cold weather with a little tighter fit on the seals.
>>Something like a Spyder. If you're below 40 degs with a spyder (using
>>CO2),
>>you better be running low pressure, or a remote. I've "fixed" many guns in
>>cold weather by just adding a remote line. Even my old Pirhana did better
>>with a remote line than it did with an expansion chamber.
>>
>>Don't get me wrong. I've got nothing against expansion chambers. But, they
>>just aren't as effective as a coiled remote.
>>
> That is what I mean. I have polished all internals and changed all
> seals for a better fit (very tight but moving fit). I get a
> considerable amount of shots out of my 16 and 20 oz bottles but I do
> not advertise as some people here would say not an A-5. I display the
> old shot charts here in this NG as to give newbies a reference/basic
> point to start with. Any improvements if in fact improvements to your
> marker should improve your shot ratios (at least I feel this way). I
> love to play in the cold as I do not sweat as bad :-). The summer in
> Florida is not that great. I live further south than most of the rest
> of the US and more so in a Tropical Climate so it gets hot and humid
> so I welcome the cold any time
>
>
> (¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)
>
> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88
>




10 Aug 2006 11:08:34
PBDepot
Re: different air


>Hardtime wrote:
>
> I also have one of the earlier WAS boards in my E-Grip and love it.
> You may want to upgrade to the QEV mod if you want just for cyclone
> performance if they have not already improved the match up. Mine can
> definitely blow the sustained 20bps mark with no problems and not be
> shooting blanks/skip balls. Without it I start the skip at just below
> 18bps. I have also drilled a few holes in the top of my ricochet
> hopper to reduce the lip pop (associated with a full hopper) from the
> cyclone expansion blow. Full hoppers reduce the available space in
> the hopper for pressure release and the ricochet hopper fits tightly
> in the cyclone.

Right, I've been doing the QEV Mod. It's practically a must with the
WAS boards. But I haven't tried drilling the hopper. I use the Ricochet
top as well, so I'll have to try that. Thanks for the great advice!



10 Aug 2006 11:29:13
PBDepot
Re: different air


>Dave Lyon wrote:
>
> Sure it does. Your tank is held on your belt, which is lower than your gun,
> and the remote has coils. How much liquid will have to be in there to fill
> all those coils? Given a chance, the CO2 would rather convert to a gas than
> travel as a liquid.

The liquid doesn't have to completely fill the remote up. CO2 is at a
high enough pressure that the pressure alone is enough to shoot liquid
through the remote and into your gun. IF the remote line is cold, then
that makes it very easy for that to happen. And if you don't have an
expansion chamber helping you after the remote, then you're going to
get liquid in the gun... simple as that.

> Turn your tank over. The valve should be up. :)

Funny. I'd turn it up, but then it wouldn't fit in my speedo. (_i_)



10 Aug 2006 17:17:40
Hardtime
Re: different air

On 10 Aug 2006 11:08:34 -0700, "PBDepot" <chuckb@paintball-depot.com >
wrote:

>
>>Hardtime wrote:
>>
>> I also have one of the earlier WAS boards in my E-Grip and love it.
>> You may want to upgrade to the QEV mod if you want just for cyclone
>> performance if they have not already improved the match up. Mine can
>> definitely blow the sustained 20bps mark with no problems and not be
>> shooting blanks/skip balls. Without it I start the skip at just below
>> 18bps. I have also drilled a few holes in the top of my ricochet
>> hopper to reduce the lip pop (associated with a full hopper) from the
>> cyclone expansion blow. Full hoppers reduce the available space in
>> the hopper for pressure release and the ricochet hopper fits tightly
>> in the cyclone.
>
>Right, I've been doing the QEV Mod. It's practically a must with the
>WAS boards. But I haven't tried drilling the hopper. I use the Ricochet
>top as well, so I'll have to try that. Thanks for the great advice!

Also make sure that since you put the QEV mod in that the reset
cylinder (cyclone primer) is still smooth on the inside the next time
that you service your marker. I have a friend that did his at the
same time I did mine and the threads went a little crooked and he
ended up with a burr on the inside. That would wear out the rings on
the reset rod or piston if not smooth.


(¯`·._Hardtime_.·´¯)

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



10 Aug 2006 15:19:43
Big Habeeb
Re: different air

Stop with all the mods and track down a mega-z.
Then rip the anti-syphon out of your tank, throw away your remote and
your expension chamber, and hold your gun upside down in 4 degree
weather, and fire no problem.
Man I miss my mega-z. Only time it broke down was when I accidentally
used an anti-syphon...it didn't like that at all. Gotta love a gun
designed to run on liquid co2.

Big Habeeb (a.k.a. Mitch)
Coming soon to a town near you!

Hardtime wrote:
> On 10 Aug 2006 11:08:34 -0700, "PBDepot" <chuckb@paintball-depot.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >>Hardtime wrote:
> >>
> >> I also have one of the earlier WAS boards in my E-Grip and love it.
> >> You may want to upgrade to the QEV mod if you want just for cyclone
> >> performance if they have not already improved the match up. Mine can
> >> definitely blow the sustained 20bps mark with no problems and not be
> >> shooting blanks/skip balls. Without it I start the skip at just below
> >> 18bps. I have also drilled a few holes in the top of my ricochet
> >> hopper to reduce the lip pop (associated with a full hopper) from the
> >> cyclone expansion blow. Full hoppers reduce the available space in
> >> the hopper for pressure release and the ricochet hopper fits tightly
> >> in the cyclone.
> >
> >Right, I've been doing the QEV Mod. It's practically a must with the
> >WAS boards. But I haven't tried drilling the hopper. I use the Ricochet
> >top as well, so I'll have to try that. Thanks for the great advice!
>
> Also make sure that since you put the QEV mod in that the reset
> cylinder (cyclone primer) is still smooth on the inside the next time
> that you service your marker. I have a friend that did his at the
> same time I did mine and the threads went a little crooked and he
> ended up with a burr on the inside. That would wear out the rings on
> the reset rod or piston if not smooth.
>
>
> (=AF`=B7._Hardtime_.=B7=B4=AF)
>=20
> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88



27 Sep 2006 00:28:39
rbalvey
Re: different air

Since it is different air. I know nothing else should be put into a Co2
tank. But is a nitrogen tank an hpa tank one and the same?

"Matt Moriearty" <MathU41@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:6Yozg.9392$dj2.7674@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Hardtime wrote:
>
>> Have you thought about polishing the internals and such? This makes
>> it easier for your O-rings and such to maintain a seal during their
>> movement. In other words the parts that move over rough surfaces may
>> lead to undue air loss. It is just a thought. You will probably find
>> those that will argue with this but I have seen improvements through
>> the polishing of internals of several markers (different makes and
>> models). You will need to be careful though as to ensure that you do
>> not overdue it. I have a buddy that attempted to polish his and over
>> bored one side of the main bolt tube. He ended up having to reorder
>> half of the frame to correct.
>
> Most of the high-end markers are pretty darn good on the internals. Not
> that a touch of rubbing compound would really *hurt*.
>
> As for the effiency, some well-tuned Intimidator knockoffes (like the Ego)
> could get 1000 out of a 68ci tank, and I've heard of plenty of nicely
> tuned Vikings and Excaliburs getting a case, give or take a couple
> hundred. I'm considering grabbing one when I've got the money, but I've
> got so many projects right now I need to finish. My Rainmaker, my project
> 'gun (recently labelled 'Sin'), and I'll be soldering up some old-school
> brass soon.
>
> I'll post some pictures on the forums when I get these things done. If
> anyone wants in on some updated Sheridan goodness after I'm done with the
> first brass project, I'll let the group in on them for the price of
> materials and shipping. :)
>




26 Sep 2006 18:00:18
Tony Sr.
Re: different air

Yes
"rbalvey" <rbalvey@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:XAjSg.5837$e66.3327@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Since it is different air. I know nothing else should be put into a Co2
> tank. But is a nitrogen tank an hpa tank one and the same?
>
> "Matt Moriearty" <MathU41@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:6Yozg.9392$dj2.7674@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Hardtime wrote:
> >
> >> Have you thought about polishing the internals and such? This makes
> >> it easier for your O-rings and such to maintain a seal during their
> >> movement. In other words the parts that move over rough surfaces may
> >> lead to undue air loss. It is just a thought. You will probably find
> >> those that will argue with this but I have seen improvements through
> >> the polishing of internals of several markers (different makes and
> >> models). You will need to be careful though as to ensure that you do
> >> not overdue it. I have a buddy that attempted to polish his and over
> >> bored one side of the main bolt tube. He ended up having to reorder
> >> half of the frame to correct.
> >
> > Most of the high-end markers are pretty darn good on the internals. Not
> > that a touch of rubbing compound would really *hurt*.
> >
> > As for the effiency, some well-tuned Intimidator knockoffes (like the
Ego)
> > could get 1000 out of a 68ci tank, and I've heard of plenty of nicely
> > tuned Vikings and Excaliburs getting a case, give or take a couple
> > hundred. I'm considering grabbing one when I've got the money, but I've
> > got so many projects right now I need to finish. My Rainmaker, my
project
> > 'gun (recently labelled 'Sin'), and I'll be soldering up some old-school
> > brass soon.
> >
> > I'll post some pictures on the forums when I get these things done. If
> > anyone wants in on some updated Sheridan goodness after I'm done with
the
> > first brass project, I'll let the group in on them for the price of
> > materials and shipping. :)
> >
>
>



27 Sep 2006 14:33:22
Dave Lyon
Re: different air


"rbalvey" <rbalvey@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:XAjSg.5837$e66.3327@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Since it is different air. I know nothing else should be put into a Co2
> tank. But is a nitrogen tank an hpa tank one and the same?


Yes, as far as paintball is concerned, they are the same thing.
Remember, the air that we breath is mostly nitrogen. Therefore, the air in a
compressed air tank is mostly nitrogen too.