21 Feb 2006 09:44:51
Hardtime
Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

I am just taking a pole here for opinions;

Does anyone else in addition to me believe that threads should in fact
be threads or that each post should be individualized? I feel that a
Topic that is being carried on or expanded upon should be maintained
in the Topic Thread instead of being separated into a different
thread. This way it is easier to keep up with the flow of the
conversation.

If anyone does not realize it, anytime that you post and change the
Subject line in anyway other than with the news reader thread reply of
Re: you will actually start a new thread.

I have my news reader set up to place and display threads together.
This is normally the default setting of most News Readers and it keeps
things flowing nicely until someone breaks the thread by altering the
subject line and then you get a lot of broken threads and a large
column of bits and pieces.

How does everyone feel about this? Broken threads or unbroken
threads?

Every news reader including Outlook Express and the Netscape/Mozilla
news readers are capable of this. Just go to the top of the columns
and click on the title bar where you see Subject and they will sort
them by subject instead of whatever setting you have like date and
such.

I use the column bars to delete messages by individuals such as
clicking on the Author and it will sort them all by author and then
highlighting all of the BeefJerkyHunter messages and deleting them all
at once. (He comes in every couple of days and posts a lot of nothing
all over the place)

There are a bunch of news readers out there capable of these simple
functions. Admittedly most of the good ones cost money (legal copies)
I personally use pay version (full) of "Agent 3.2" but I also use
their service at forteinc.com. Agent allows multiple personas and
accounts on the fly.


Agent - http://www.forteinc.com/main/homepage.php
Newsleecher - http://www.newsleecher.com/
NewsBin - http://www.newsbin.com/
NewsRover - http://www.newsrover.com/getit.htm
Various others - http://zdnet.com.com/3150-2164-0.html

Tutorials for the popular Browsers/Mail programs.

Netscape -
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Netscape+AND+Newsgroups&page=1&offset=3&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D2828296036b12626%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3DNetscape%2BAND%2BNewsgroups%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwp.netscape.com%252Fbrowsers%252Fusing%252Fnewusers%252Fnewsgroups%252Findex.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPTop%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwp.netscape.com%2Fbrowsers%2Fusing%2Fnewusers%2Fnewsgroups%2Findex.html

Outlook Express -
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/using/howto/oe/gettingnews.mspx

Opera - http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/mail/imap/


Hardtime

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88


22 Feb 2006 02:28:11
EDTHEWARD
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)


"Hardtime" <hardtime11@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:sc8mv15sd3gjrm4n5bno94hj4m6g4dcqd3@4ax.com...
>I am just taking a pole here for opinions;
>


dude, you lost me at "taking a pole"

I'd rather not picture that.




21 Feb 2006 22:26:46
Hardtime
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 02:28:11 GMT, "EDTHEWARD" <BLARG@BLARG.NET > wrote:

>
>"Hardtime" <hardtime11@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:sc8mv15sd3gjrm4n5bno94hj4m6g4dcqd3@4ax.com...
>>I am just taking a pole here for opinions;
>>
>dude, you lost me at "taking a pole"
>
>I'd rather not picture that.

LOL,

What has been happening as of lately is that I (and I am sure many
others) have my news reader set to keep the Topics/Subjects placed
together. Now when someone modifies the topic by other than Re: it
places it in it's own little group instead of the current flow of the
thread. See the examples below. When utilizing just the Reply to
option of the reader it creates sot of a stair step method to follow
the thread. This is also makes the thread watchable, collapsible and
trackable. The incorrect method is where alterations have been made
to the subject line and each letter becomes an individual and not
associated with a group.

For Example:
Correct (follow placement ladder/step);

does size really matter? = Thread Subject
Re: does size really matter? = Response to Thread
Re: does size really matter? = Response to Thread

Incorrect (No placement ladder/step);

does size really matter? = Thread Subject
Re: does size really matter?(????) =Response to Thread
Re: does size really matter?(####)) =Response to Thread



Hardtime

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88


21 Feb 2006 23:33:27
Jeff Goslin
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations) (and so on)

"Hardtime" <hardtime11@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:mbmnv11d4olea0mmm88097fptguk5jaqfs@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 02:28:11 GMT, "EDTHEWARD" <BLARG@BLARG.NET> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Hardtime" <hardtime11@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:sc8mv15sd3gjrm4n5bno94hj4m6g4dcqd3@4ax.com...
>>>I am just taking a pole here for opinions;
>>>
>>dude, you lost me at "taking a pole"
>>
>>I'd rather not picture that.
>
> LOL,
>
> What has been happening as of lately is that I (and I am sure many
> others) have my news reader set to keep the Topics/Subjects placed
> together. Now when someone modifies the topic by other than Re: it
> places it in it's own little group instead of the current flow of the
> thread. See the examples below. When utilizing just the Reply to
> option of the reader it creates sot of a stair step method to follow
> the thread. This is also makes the thread watchable, collapsible and
> trackable. The incorrect method is where alterations have been made
> to the subject line and each letter becomes an individual and not
> associated with a group.
>
> For Example:
> Correct (follow placement ladder/step);
>
> does size really matter? = Thread Subject
> Re: does size really matter? = Response to Thread
> Re: does size really matter? = Response to Thread
>
> Incorrect (No placement ladder/step);
>
> does size really matter? = Thread Subject
> Re: does size really matter?(????) =Response to Thread
> Re: does size really matter?(####)) =Response to Thread

I had to... I just had to.
(see subject line)

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right





22 Feb 2006 04:24:28
Rick Scott
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

(Hardtime <hardtime11@hotmail.com > uttered:)
> Does anyone else in addition to me believe that threads should in fact
> be threads or that each post should be individualized? I feel that a
> Topic that is being carried on or expanded upon should be maintained
> in the Topic Thread instead of being separated into a different
> thread. This way it is easier to keep up with the flow of the
> conversation.
>
> If anyone does not realize it, anytime that you post and change the
> Subject line in anyway other than with the news reader thread reply of
> Re: you will actually start a new thread.

Actually, no. If the newsreader you post with handles the References:
header properly, you can do whatever you want with the Subject line
when you reply and the thread will remain unbroken. And if the
newsreader you read news with isn't threading posts by the References:
header, then either it is broken, or your configuration of it is broken.


> I use the column bars to delete messages by individuals such as
> clicking on the Author and it will sort them all by author and then
> highlighting all of the BeefJerkyHunter messages and deleting them all
> at once. (He comes in every couple of days and posts a lot of nothing
> all over the place)

Use a killfile and your newsreader will automagically do that for you.
If your newsreader doesn't make it easy to filter posts, get one that
does. It's worth it; it'll vastly improve your Usenet experience.


> There are a bunch of news readers out there capable of these simple
> functions. Admittedly most of the good ones cost money (legal copies)

Disagree. My preferred newsreaders (tin and slrn) are excellent and
they're both free (`free as in beer' as well as `free as in speech'.)




Rick
--
key CF8F8A75 / print C5C1 F87D 5056 D2C0 D5CE D58F 970F 04D1 CF8F 8A75
Are you the police? . . . . No ma'am, we're sysadmins.
:Dave Lugo


22 Feb 2006 06:28:20
Rick Scott
Posting and You (was: Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations) (and so on))

(Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net > uttered:)
> I had to... I just had to.
> (see subject line)

I have to admit -- that subject line reminded me of that "Posting and
You" flash file that's been making the rounds for a while now.




Rick
--
key CF8F8A75 / print C5C1 F87D 5056 D2C0 D5CE D58F 970F 04D1 CF8F 8A75
Tell the truth and run.
:Yugoslav proverb


22 Feb 2006 08:07:17
Hardtime
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations) (and so on)

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:33:27 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net > wrote:

>I had to... I just had to.
>(see subject line)


I knew you would ;-)


Hardtime

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88


22 Feb 2006 08:29:46
Hardtime
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 04:24:28 -0000, rick@shadowspar.dyndns.org (Rick
Scott) wrote:

>(Hardtime <hardtime11@hotmail.com> uttered:)
>> Does anyone else in addition to me believe that threads should in fact
>> be threads or that each post should be individualized? I feel that a
>> Topic that is being carried on or expanded upon should be maintained
>> in the Topic Thread instead of being separated into a different
>> thread. This way it is easier to keep up with the flow of the
>> conversation.
>>
>> If anyone does not realize it, anytime that you post and change the
>> Subject line in anyway other than with the news reader thread reply of
>> Re: you will actually start a new thread.
>
>Actually, no. If the newsreader you post with handles the References:
>header properly, you can do whatever you want with the Subject line
>when you reply and the thread will remain unbroken. And if the
>newsreader you read news with isn't threading posts by the References:
>header, then either it is broken, or your configuration of it is broken.

I have mine sorting by Subject line and variation that way it really
consolidates the thread and enters reply's according to time and
message follow up at the same time. It is not broken but it does look
at the entire subject line unlike other (free?) readers that only look
at the first word.

>> I use the column bars to delete messages by individuals such as
>> clicking on the Author and it will sort them all by author and then
>> highlighting all of the BeefJerkyHunter messages and deleting them all
>> at once. (He comes in every couple of days and posts a lot of nothing
>> all over the place)
>
>Use a killfile and your newsreader will automagically do that for you.
>If your newsreader doesn't make it easy to filter posts, get one that
>does. It's worth it; it'll vastly improve your Usenet experience.

I use the killfile and filters for a lot of things but remember when
you killfile someone or something and someone responds to it after it
is gone you lose what the response is actually in response to. I mean
the actual comment the brought about the response you made and the
context might not be there.

>> There are a bunch of news readers out there capable of these simple
>> functions. Admittedly most of the good ones cost money (legal copies)
>
>Disagree. My preferred newsreaders (tin and slrn) are excellent and
>they're both free (`free as in beer' as well as `free as in speech'.)

When did beer become free?


I have my reader actually set up for software retrieval in various
software newsgroups and any variations in the subject line are taken
as something different.

I actually have mine putting tags on certain things like
"BeefJerky-Hunter" so I can just delete the them/tagged messages all
at once.


Hardtime

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88


22 Feb 2006 15:51:08
Rick Scott
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

(Hardtime <hardtime11@hotmail.com > uttered:)
> > Actually, no. If the newsreader you post with handles the
> > References: header properly, you can do whatever you want with
> > the Subject line when you reply and the thread will remain
> > unbroken. And if the newsreader you read news with isn't
> > threading posts by the References: header, then either it is
> > broken, or your configuration of it is broken.
>
> I have mine sorting by Subject line and variation that way it really
> consolidates the thread and enters reply's according to time and
> message follow up at the same time. It is not broken but it does look
> at the entire subject line unlike other (free?) readers that only look
> at the first word.

It *is* broken, and what I'm telling you is that (it|you) shouldn't be
sorting by Subject line. You should be sorting by References.

Here's how the References header works. Say you start a new thread in
the group, posting a message with Message-ID <1234@hardtime >. The
References and Message-ID headers for that message will look like this:

Message-ID: <1234@hardtime >
References:

If I then reply to that message, say with Message-ID <4567@shadowspar >,
my newsreader will update the References header to show that this
message should be threaded as a subtree of your original:

Message-ID: <4567@shadowspar >
References: <1234@hardtime >

And if you reply to that, then your response will have:

Message-ID: <89AB@hardtime >
References: <1234@hardtime > <4567@shadowspar>

Now say Volt replies to the last message you posted (<89AB@hardtime >)
and Jeff replies to your original and to my message. That'll give
three messages as follows:

Message-ID: <XYZZY@volt >
References: <1234@hardtime > <4567@shadowspar> <89AB@hardtime>

Message-ID: <BIGDOOD@goslin >
References: <1234@hardtime >

Message-ID: <DEADBEEF@goslin >
References: <1234@hardtime > <4567@shadowspar>

And from this you can see exactly how they're supposed to be threaded.
Every message should be `below' any message it mentions in the
References line when the thread tree is built. So here we get:

<1234@hardtime >
|
+---<4567@shadowspar >
| |
| +---<89AB@hardtime >
| | |
| | +---<XYZZY@volt >
| |
| +---<DEADBEEF@goslin >
|
+---<BIGDOOD@goslin >


All this has nothing to do with the Subject: line; you could change
it every post if you wanted.

Every decent newsreader threads by References by default. You should
try to get yours to. If it can't, trade it in for a better one.



> I use the killfile and filters for a lot of things but remember when
> you killfile someone or something and someone responds to it after it
> is gone you lose what the response is actually in response to. I mean
> the actual comment the brought about the response you made and the
> context might not be there.

If you want to look at the messages that are culled by your killfile,
there's no real point in having one, is there?


> > Disagree. My preferred newsreaders (tin and slrn) are excellent
> > and they're both free (`free as in beer' as well as `free as in
> > speech'.)
>
> When did beer become free?

Sorry if you're not familiar with those two idioms. They're used to
try and separate the two different concepts that English confusingly
uses the same word for. "Free as in beer" means gratis -- available
without paying any money. "Free as in speech" means free as in
freedom -- you can get a hold of the source code, modify it, and
redistribute your modifications.




Rick
--
key CF8F8A75 / print C5C1 F87D 5056 D2C0 D5CE D58F 970F 04D1 CF8F 8A75
The SSH client is pretty good, it is free, and it is illegal in the US!
A winner all around!
:Steven Skovran


22 Feb 2006 11:28:22
Hardtime
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

LOL,
Again, it is not broken if you surf the software newsgroups at all:
alt.binaries.cd
alt.binaries.warez
and so on....

The posts are very similar and it is almost always a group that all
use the same posting address or an individual that is doing a posting
flood of software you use the subject line to separate the software
and it even culls by date in this method.

I thank you for the lesson in readers and I know what you are saying.
I can set mine either way but I have been doing since the before the
beginning of BBS/Whiteboards. I hate to have to change my settings
everytime I switch which is quite often. I know quite a few others
that utilize the software groups and they sort the same way that I do
and they also go into forum type newsgroups. They use the text
variations in the body and not the subject(which is the topic) line in
the groups that they are in.

I tell you what, try using your settings in the above listed groups
and see if they are very consistent at pulling down all and only the
software that you want. I guess then you would say yours is broken.
:-)


On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:51:08 -0000, rick@shadowspar.dyndns.org (Rick
Scott) wrote:

>(Hardtime <hardtime11@hotmail.com> uttered:)
>> > Actually, no. If the newsreader you post with handles the
>> > References: header properly, you can do whatever you want with
>> > the Subject line when you reply and the thread will remain
>> > unbroken. And if the newsreader you read news with isn't
>> > threading posts by the References: header, then either it is
>> > broken, or your configuration of it is broken.
>>
>> I have mine sorting by Subject line and variation that way it really
>> consolidates the thread and enters reply's according to time and
>> message follow up at the same time. It is not broken but it does look
>> at the entire subject line unlike other (free?) readers that only look
>> at the first word.
>
>It *is* broken, and what I'm telling you is that (it|you) shouldn't be
>sorting by Subject line. You should be sorting by References.
>
>Here's how the References header works. Say you start a new thread in
>the group, posting a message with Message-ID <1234@hardtime>. The
>References and Message-ID headers for that message will look like this:
>
> Message-ID: <1234@hardtime>
> References:
>
>If I then reply to that message, say with Message-ID <4567@shadowspar>,
>my newsreader will update the References header to show that this
>message should be threaded as a subtree of your original:
>
> Message-ID: <4567@shadowspar>
> References: <1234@hardtime>
>
>And if you reply to that, then your response will have:
>
> Message-ID: <89AB@hardtime>
> References: <1234@hardtime> <4567@shadowspar>
>
>Now say Volt replies to the last message you posted (<89AB@hardtime>)
>and Jeff replies to your original and to my message. That'll give
>three messages as follows:
>
> Message-ID: <XYZZY@volt>
> References: <1234@hardtime> <4567@shadowspar> <89AB@hardtime>
>
> Message-ID: <BIGDOOD@goslin>
> References: <1234@hardtime>
>
> Message-ID: <DEADBEEF@goslin>
> References: <1234@hardtime> <4567@shadowspar>
>
>And from this you can see exactly how they're supposed to be threaded.
>Every message should be `below' any message it mentions in the
>References line when the thread tree is built. So here we get:
>
><1234@hardtime>
>|
>+---<4567@shadowspar>
>| |
>| +---<89AB@hardtime>
>| | |
>| | +---<XYZZY@volt>
>| |
>| +---<DEADBEEF@goslin>
>|
>+---<BIGDOOD@goslin>
>
>
>All this has nothing to do with the Subject: line; you could change
>it every post if you wanted.
>
>Every decent newsreader threads by References by default. You should
>try to get yours to. If it can't, trade it in for a better one.
>
>
>
>> I use the killfile and filters for a lot of things but remember when
>> you killfile someone or something and someone responds to it after it
>> is gone you lose what the response is actually in response to. I mean
>> the actual comment the brought about the response you made and the
>> context might not be there.
>
>If you want to look at the messages that are culled by your killfile,
>there's no real point in having one, is there?
>
>
>> > Disagree. My preferred newsreaders (tin and slrn) are excellent
>> > and they're both free (`free as in beer' as well as `free as in
>> > speech'.)
>>
>> When did beer become free?
>
>Sorry if you're not familiar with those two idioms. They're used to
>try and separate the two different concepts that English confusingly
>uses the same word for. "Free as in beer" means gratis -- available
>without paying any money. "Free as in speech" means free as in
>freedom -- you can get a hold of the source code, modify it, and
>redistribute your modifications.
>
>
>
>
>Rick


Hardtime

http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88


22 Feb 2006 18:19:59
Rick Scott
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

(Hardtime <hardtime11@hotmail.com > uttered:)
> LOL,
> Again, it is not broken if you surf the software newsgroups at all:
> alt.binaries.cd
> alt.binaries.warez
> and so on....

Heh. I just hit up the Debian repository and it has all the software
I need, thanks. No need to go hunting for cracked proprietary stuff
when I get everything I need for free, and it's open source to boot.
=)


> The posts are very similar and it is almost always a group that all
> use the same posting address or an individual that is doing a posting
> flood of software you use the subject line to separate the software
> and it even culls by date in this method. ...
>
> I tell you what, try using your settings in the above listed groups
> and see if they are very consistent at pulling down all and only the
> software that you want. I guess then you would say yours is broken.

tin does a great job of handling binary multipart postings. With
the default settings, separate threads are sorted by subject (which
is really what those multiposts are -- separate one-post threads).
Just tag everything you want, hit save, and tin sucks all the articles
down and processes them into their respective files. You can even tag
and download everything in the group with a couple of keystrokes if
you want (and if your pipe is big enough) -- as long as all the parts
are on your news server, all the files will come out correctly.




Rick
--
key CF8F8A75 / print C5C1 F87D 5056 D2C0 D5CE D58F 970F 04D1 CF8F 8A75
It would be hard to find a place where things suck more than in
corporate IT departments. You would not believe the amount of money
companies spend on software, and the crap they get in return.
:Paul Graham


22 Feb 2006 23:53:45
Jeff Goslin
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations) (and so on) (and so on)

"Hardtime" <hardtime11@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:cfoov1dhdhqqbhtmghco1d62m8rq1lasrm@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:33:27 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
> <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I had to... I just had to.
>>(see subject line)
>
>
> I knew you would ;-)


And again... It's a sickness I tellya...

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right





24 Feb 2006 17:54:06
Stephanie Reeves
Re: Posting & Threads (Ongoing conversations)

yes, do serve their purpose
"Hardtime" <hardtime11@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:sc8mv15sd3gjrm4n5bno94hj4m6g4dcqd3@4ax.com...
>I am just taking a pole here for opinions;
>
> Does anyone else in addition to me believe that threads should in fact
> be threads or that each post should be individualized? I feel that a
> Topic that is being carried on or expanded upon should be maintained
> in the Topic Thread instead of being separated into a different
> thread. This way it is easier to keep up with the flow of the
> conversation.
>
> If anyone does not realize it, anytime that you post and change the
> Subject line in anyway other than with the news reader thread reply of
> Re: you will actually start a new thread.
>
> I have my news reader set up to place and display threads together.
> This is normally the default setting of most News Readers and it keeps
> things flowing nicely until someone breaks the thread by altering the
> subject line and then you get a lot of broken threads and a large
> column of bits and pieces.
>
> How does everyone feel about this? Broken threads or unbroken
> threads?
>
> Every news reader including Outlook Express and the Netscape/Mozilla
> news readers are capable of this. Just go to the top of the columns
> and click on the title bar where you see Subject and they will sort
> them by subject instead of whatever setting you have like date and
> such.
>
> I use the column bars to delete messages by individuals such as
> clicking on the Author and it will sort them all by author and then
> highlighting all of the BeefJerkyHunter messages and deleting them all
> at once. (He comes in every couple of days and posts a lot of nothing
> all over the place)
>
> There are a bunch of news readers out there capable of these simple
> functions. Admittedly most of the good ones cost money (legal copies)
> I personally use pay version (full) of "Agent 3.2" but I also use
> their service at forteinc.com. Agent allows multiple personas and
> accounts on the fly.
>
>
> Agent - http://www.forteinc.com/main/homepage.php
> Newsleecher - http://www.newsleecher.com/
> NewsBin - http://www.newsbin.com/
> NewsRover - http://www.newsrover.com/getit.htm
> Various others - http://zdnet.com.com/3150-2164-0.html
>
> Tutorials for the popular Browsers/Mail programs.
>
> Netscape -
> http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Netscape+AND+Newsgroups&page=1&offset=3&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D2828296036b12626%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3DNetscape%2BAND%2BNewsgroups%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwp.netscape.com%252Fbrowsers%252Fusing%252Fnewusers%252Fnewsgroups%252Findex.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPTop%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwp.netscape.com%2Fbrowsers%2Fusing%2Fnewusers%2Fnewsgroups%2Findex.html
>
> Outlook Express -
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/using/howto/oe/gettingnews.mspx
>
> Opera - http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/mail/imap/
>
>
> Hardtime
>
> http://geocities.com/arcticjohn88/arcticjohn88