29 Sep 2003 14:07:55
David Malone
Ethical?

Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
win.

The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.

Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...

David "The Hamster" Malone


29 Sep 2003 14:42:04
Earl
Re: Ethical?

" > Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done?"

You are nuts for feeling that way

"David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com > wrote in message
news:3f783c93.1471609609@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
> Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
> round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
> a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
> OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
> stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
> trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
> rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
> can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
> centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
> using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
> the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
> his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
> win.
>
> The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
> was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
> because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
> turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone




29 Sep 2003 10:50:14
RUNaRAK
Re: Ethical?


"David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com > wrote in message
news:3f783c93.1471609609@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
> Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
> round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
> a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
> OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
> stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
> trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
> rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
> can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
> centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
> using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
> the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
> his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
> win.
>
> The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
> was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
> because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
> turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone




29 Sep 2003 10:50:21
RUNaRAK
Re: Ethical?


"David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com > wrote in message
news:3f783c93.1471609609@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
> Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
> round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
> a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
> OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
> stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
> trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
> rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
> can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
> centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
> using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
> the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
> his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
> win.
>
> The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
> was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
> because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
> turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone




29 Sep 2003 10:53:31
RUNaRAK
Re: Ethical?

David,
It is no different than sinking a 9 ball early that is in the hole because
you are hooked on the lowest ball and do not want your opponent to ride if
you miss. Part of pool is doing what it takes to win. You did not create
VNEA rules and you did what you did to help your team win. Nothing wrong
with that! I would always prefer to run out too but when it comes down to
being that close, you should not beat yourself up.
It is nice to hear from a player with some integrity though.

Joe Koontz
"Christian Poolplayer"




29 Sep 2003 14:56:25
W Cardwell
Re: Ethical?

I don't know the VNEA scoring system, but if they give credit for illegally
pocketed balls what do they expect you to do?
--

wcardwell at nc dot rr dot com


"Earl" <earl891@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:0xXdb.83851$xx4.10358951@twister.neo.rr.com...
> "> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done?"
>
> You are nuts for feeling that way
>
> "David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:3f783c93.1471609609@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
> > Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
> > round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
> > a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
> > OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
> > stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
> > trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
> > rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
> > can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
> > centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
> > using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
> > the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
> > his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
> > win.
> >
> > The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
> > was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
> > because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
> >
> > Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
> > turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
> >
> > David "The Hamster" Malone
>
>




29 Sep 2003 10:13:46
Mike Page
Re: Ethical?

In article <3f783c93.1471609609@ausnews.austin.ibm.com >,
malone@ca.ibm.com (David Malone) wrote:

> Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
> round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
> a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
> OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
> stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
> trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
> rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
> can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
> centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
> using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
> the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
> his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
> win.
>
> The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
> was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
> because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
> turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>


What you did was clever, not wrong, imo.

It happens all the time that a player needs several points to win the
round for his team. In these cases it is common to knock in the balls
and get the points even when the 8-ball is hopelessly tied up. So you
are sacrificing the game win to get the points and the round. I don't
see where your intentional foul is any different.

It's all a consequence of the funny league scoring system that gives
points for balls pocketed.


29 Sep 2003 10:22:01
Pat Hall
Re: Ethical?

I think you did what you were supposed to do. Maybe not the "feel good"
thing to do but it's what you do when you play a team sport.

PatH...would of done the same thing and probably felt the same way

David Malone wrote:

>Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
>round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
>a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
>OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
>stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
>trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
>rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
>can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
>centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
>using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
>the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
>his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
>win.
>
>The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
>was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
>because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
>Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
>turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>
>David "The Hamster" Malone
>
>



29 Sep 2003 17:48:10
David Malone
Re: Ethical?

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:42:04 GMT, "Earl" <earl891@yahoo.com > wrote:

>"> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done?"
>
>You are nuts for feeling that way

lol... Thanks, Earl.

David "The Hamster" Malone


29 Sep 2003 18:09:14
David Malone
Re: Ethical?

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:13:46 -0500, Mike Page
<mike.page@ndsu.nodak.edu > wrote:

>It happens all the time that a player needs several points to win the
>round for his team. In these cases it is common to knock in the balls
>and get the points even when the 8-ball is hopelessly tied up. So you
>are sacrificing the game win to get the points and the round. I don't
>see where your intentional foul is any different.

Thanks, Mike. I mean it's certainly not the first time I've made an
intentional foul in a game, but in those other cases it was done with
the intention of buying time or getting an advantage so I could WIN
the game. I think in this case, it was the knowlege that I
deliberately threw a game away without making an honest attempt to win
that made me have those doubts. (That plus the dirty looks I got from
the other team... :-)

>It's all a consequence of the funny league scoring system that gives
>points for balls pocketed.

I guess that's really the culprit...

David "The Hamster" Malone


29 Sep 2003 19:06:36
Ray Fichthorn
Re: Ethical?

I wouldn't beat myself up over it. Like it's been noted.. this is a unique situation where you were
well within the rules. You were playing as a team and you did what needed to be done within the
rules to get the team victory..
The "other" team may be upset that they lost.. but I'm sure at some point during the "season"
someone from their team "probably" had a similar situation- and did exactly what you did.. played to
win for their team. Whether it was deliberately missing orthrowing a game for handicap.... it's part
of the game and within the rules... Game, Set , Match... enjoy the victory.

Ray



David Malone wrote:

> Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
> round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
> a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
> OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
> stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
> trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
> rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
> can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
> centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
> using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
> the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
> his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
> win.
>
> The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
> was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
> because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
> turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone



29 Sep 2003 22:41:24
Mario Blansjaar
Re: Ethical?

You didn't cheat. You played by the rules and won. There's no problem
with that. IMO

With kind regards,
Mario

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:07:55 GMT, malone@ca.ibm.com (David Malone)
wrote:

> felt as if I
>was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game.



29 Sep 2003 21:37:45
Samiel
Re: Ethical?

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:07:55 GMT, malone@ca.ibm.com (David Malone)
wrote:

>Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
>round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
>a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
>OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
>stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
>trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
>rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
>can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
>centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
>using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
>the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
>his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
>win.
>
>The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
>was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
>because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
>Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
>turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>
>David "The Hamster" Malone
>
If the VNEA rules allow you to do it, then it's fine... kind of like
sandbagging in the APA... you just have to do some things to win that
don't feel good. j/k :-)

- Samiel


29 Sep 2003 21:59:53
Tony DeAngelo
Re: Ethical?



David Malone wrote:(snip)
I also felt bad
> because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.


A lot of people will tell you that this is why they don't like league
night. I suggest that this is one reason why you might like league
night. It's no different than a defense with a big lead going into a
prevent formation, or that of a quarterback taking a knee with 20
seconds left. League night SHOULD emphasize the team, so you did the
right thing...the score often dictates your strategy. Personally, I
can't stand the guy who only needs three balls and tries for the low
percentage shot, only to blow it for his teammates. Kudos, says I.



29 Sep 2003 22:10:41
Cues Plus
Re: Ethical?

I think it was smart and something I wouldn't have been smart enough to
do... I am very stubborn and would have made a bad decision and made an
attempt at the best legal ball.

Michael

--


http://www.cuesplus.com
(remove SPAMBLOCK if replying by e-mail)
"David Malone" <malone@ca.ibm.com > wrote in message
news:3f783c93.1471609609@ausnews.austin.ibm.com...
> Playing 8-ball in the VNEA last night and we finally got to the last
> round at about midnight (only one table). I'm the last player and it's
> a close match so my captain says, "Just make 5 balls and we win..."
> OK. It's my break and I sink a couple - one of each. Start shooting
> stripes and make 3 balls before getting myself into all kinds of
> trouble - one of those balls that just seem to keep rolling and
> rolling. I just need one ball to win, and I'm in a position where I
> can't easily make a ball. Only possibility would be a a kick into the
> centre pocket. So... I think about it and finally shoot a combination
> using my opponents ball to sink another stripe. We win the round and
> the match. The crowd (at least my team) goes wild. My opponent shakes
> his head, takes ball in hand, and goes on to clear the table for a
> win.
>
> The team wins but I felt really bad about doing this. I felt as if I
> was cheating this guy by not trying to win the game. I also felt bad
> because I would normally beat this person and usually did in the past.
>
> Am I nuts for feeling this way? What would you have done? Have I
> turned into Sam? Enquiring minds, etc...
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone




30 Sep 2003 13:34:26
David Malone
Re: Ethical?

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:37:45 GMT, Samiel <samiel@samiel.com > wrote:

>If the VNEA rules allow you to do it, then it's fine... kind of like
>sandbagging in the APA... you just have to do some things to win that
>don't feel good. j/k :-)

Samiel, that's one reason why I don't play APA (CPA up here) because I
will not be a party to deliberate sandbagging. My wife quit because
they kept telling her to lose so she could remain a 2 and they could
go to Vegas with a stacked team, when she is at least a 3, maybe a 4
if she plays her game. I don't mind losing if I get beat by a better
player, but I prefer to win.

Maybe that's what's bugging me about this whole thing. Perhaps I could
have played a safety and still won the game (and the team would have
won also). Mind you, I'd have felt bad if it resulted in the team
losing.

David "The Hamster" Malone


30 Sep 2003 13:35:27
David Malone
Re: Ethical?

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:25:39 -0700, "sam" <sam@lasercom.net > wrote:

>Hey Hamster, Let's watch the Sam bashing! That was clearly a "sucker
>punch"! LOL :o) Sincerely, Sam

JAM took off... we need a designated hitter...

David "The Hamster" Malone


04 Oct 2003 14:09:19
Snoozy
Re: Ethical?

> >Steve. <- Thinks a great philosophical issue underlies this
> >discussion. ;-)
>
> I stink, therefore I am?
>
> David "The Hamster" Malone

"Half this game is ninety percent mental."
- Yogi Berra