01 Jul 2004 02:06:08
Bill
Coin Flipping Disputes!

OK, I'm playing in this double elimination tournament, it is late
(midnight) and we are down to the last 4 players. I've lost one game
already. It is *very* unlikely I would win any more games since the
remaining players are much better than I am.

It is my turn to play another player who usually beats me, I am very tired
and want to go home, so I'm thinking, if I get lucky, I'll make sure he
wins, then I can leave. At this point I could care less about winning the
tournament. Just want to go home.

Anyway I flip a coin and win the flip to break. Then this guy says I did
not flip the coin high enough and that my coin flip is unacceptable! And
that I should flip again! That the coin must go high up in the air!

Well I've been playing this guy for about 8 months and he has never said
anything about my coin flipping before. For that matter, neither has anyone
else.

He seemed to be implying that I somehow was cheating by not throwing my
coin high enough and that I was somehow able to make the coin face up in my
favor.

Had he been watching more closely, he would have seen me reach in my
pocket, get out a quarter *without* looking at it, jiggle it in my palm to
mix it up, then throw it up just a little.

I would think I would have needed to look at it first to throw it with a
predictable outcome. Duh!

Anyway I'll admit I am not the best coin flipper in the world. Actually I
try not to flip it too high because it has landed in a pocket or on the
floor in the past. I am trying to keep it on the table.

Also if I was somehow able to control my "lousy" flips, I would be wanting
to flip all the time, and I would be breaking all the time. This is not the
case. In reality, I could care less who breaks (usually). I do better if
the other player breaks and runs a few of his balls off the table and gets
them out of my way.

Anyway I was quite pissed that he was implying that I was cheating when I
was not. I refused to flip again and he refused to rack. So I refused to
play and decided to forfeit the game. I wanted to go home anyway. I did not
want to allow him to change/make the rules in the middle of the game so to
speak. And it would have been unacceptable for me to flip again. (A matter
of principal here.)

Actually the tournament has no rules about coin flipping. Which brings me
to my question(s)...

Has anyone else had any disputes with coin flipping?

Is there an acceptable way to flip a coin?

What are unacceptable ways to flip a coin?

Any written rules on this anywhere?

How are disputes like this usually settled? (People should not be able to
question the flip and ask for another flip just because they lost the flip.
This would not be fair to say the least.)

Note that I did play a guy once who did the flipping for the break. I
called heads. It was heads (so I should break). He then picked his coin up
and threw it my direction, then he walked away from the table as if he had
won the flip. I was amused by this, so I just let it fly and racked the
balls. (And as I said, it does not matter usually if the other person
breaks.) I won the game anyway.

So far as my questionable flipping goes, I can just have the other person
flip (or at least that specific player) from now on and that will settle
that....






01 Jul 2004 06:30:27
Raistlin
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

> How are disputes like this usually settled?

Try lagging for the break rather than flipping. That way you remove
any basis for argument. Also good practice for larger tournaments.


01 Jul 2004 09:39:06
Frank Glenn
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

In article <a90dd16a.0407010530.d876806@posting.google.com >,
David_Quinlan@rcomext.com says...
:|:Try lagging for the break rather than flipping. That way you remove
:|:any basis for argument. Also good practice for larger tournaments.
:|:

Also saves the cloth. The edge of the coin will cut the cloth.
Frank
www.frankglenn.com
my GC-I is for sale


01 Jul 2004 14:02:17
Dan White
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!


"Bill" <bill190nospam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:2ki2doF2e532U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> Actually the tournament has no rules about coin flipping. Which brings me
> to my question(s)...
>
> Has anyone else had any disputes with coin flipping?
>
> Is there an acceptable way to flip a coin?
>
> What are unacceptable ways to flip a coin?
>
> Any written rules on this anywhere?
>

When did coin flipping become the method of choice anyway? What ever
happened to lagging for the break?

dwhite




01 Jul 2004 08:16:21
Aunty Dan
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Unfortunately there are people who can find reasons to dispute lagging too.
I know a guy like this, we lag, I win and he complains I hit my ball after
his, I have to hit it at the same time he says. So we do it again, I hit at
the same time and still win, but then he complains because my ball hit the
top rail and bounced off and his didn't, he told me I had to call it if I
would hit the rail or not.

Then again I really should have known better seeing as how he tried to
generously "give" me the break in the game of Straight pool we were setting
up in the first place.

--
Aunty Dan (Remove "X" from "XHotmail.com" to reply directly)
------------------------------------------
"For 'tis the sport to have the engineer
Hoisted with his own petard."
- W. Shakespeare
---------------------------------------

"Frank Glenn" <nobody@frankglenn.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.1b4dde09db51d2d4989b97@news.comcast.giganews.com...
> In article <a90dd16a.0407010530.d876806@posting.google.com>,
> David_Quinlan@rcomext.com says...
> :|:Try lagging for the break rather than flipping. That way you remove
> :|:any basis for argument. Also good practice for larger tournaments.
> :|:
>
> Also saves the cloth. The edge of the coin will cut the cloth.
> Frank
> www.frankglenn.com
> my GC-I is for sale




01 Jul 2004 16:48:59
Bob Jewett
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Bill <bill190nospam@yahoo.com > wrote:

...
> How are disputes like this usually settled?

The low-stress way is simply not to play him any more.

There was a player in this area who was known for um....
instability, and once I offered him the first break in a weekly
tournament match rather than flipping, and he immediately
launched into an angry harangue about how I was cheating.
Wacky Jacky.

The rule on lags is that the second person to lag must hit his
ball before the first ball strikes the far cushion. I've known
one carom player to wait until his opponent's cue ball was
halfway back from the far rail before he would lag, the better to
get a reading on the speed of the cloth. I imagine he was
surprised the first time a foul on his lag was called.

And then you'll run into the crudbum who will insist that if your
lagged ball hits the second rail you lose.

> So far as my questionable flipping goes, I can just have the
> other person flip (or at least that specific player) from now
> on and that will settle that....

As they flip, call it by muttering "crllds" under your breath.
That should be good for some excitement. I usually call "HEADS!"
before my opponent gets the coin out of his pocket.

--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/



01 Jul 2004 13:14:47
Ratchet
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!



Dan White wrote:

> "Bill" <bill190nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2ki2doF2e532U1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Actually the tournament has no rules about coin flipping. Which brings me
> > to my question(s)...
> >
> >(snip)
> >
>
> When did coin flipping become the method of choice anyway? What ever
> happened to lagging for the break?
>
> dwhite

Its the method of people who cant lag , I suppose ??

>> Ratchet << been called on both and still won




01 Jul 2004 10:38:44
Snoozy
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

"Bill" wrote

> Anyway I flip a coin and win the flip to break. Then this guy says I did
> not flip the coin high enough and that my coin flip is unacceptable! And
> that I should flip again! That the coin must go high up in the air!

I would have said something like, "Why don't you go ahead and break
then since you are the only one who cares."

I would have acted like it meant nothing to me . . .

I would always make him flip the coin after that though or ask for a
lag.

Snoozy


01 Jul 2004 13:01:13
John Barton
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

By flipping a coin :-))

On a related note: I have recently started to request lagging for the
break. In the handicapped tournament I play in soe of the players only have
to win two games and I don't feel like taking a 50% chance at giving them a
shot at the nine on the first break.

I really haven't heard of two many flipping disputes. There was a guy in
Denver who had a bit of a reputation for flipping the coin and calling
himself the winner and picking up the coin before the opponent could see it.
"Raistlin" <David_Quinlan@rcomext.com > wrote in message
news:a90dd16a.0407010530.d876806@posting.google.com...
> > How are disputes like this usually settled?
>
> Try lagging for the break rather than flipping. That way you remove
> any basis for argument. Also good practice for larger tournaments.




01 Jul 2004 13:03:40
John Barton
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Just to be a smart ass I used to hit the lag had enough to go three rails.
I won a few of those to the discontent of my opponents.

John


"Bob Jewett" <jewett@sfbilliards.com > wrote in message
news:1088700538.666054@emperor.labs.agilent.com...
> Bill <bill190nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ...
> > How are disputes like this usually settled?
>
> The low-stress way is simply not to play him any more.
>
> There was a player in this area who was known for um....
> instability, and once I offered him the first break in a weekly
> tournament match rather than flipping, and he immediately
> launched into an angry harangue about how I was cheating.
> Wacky Jacky.
>
> The rule on lags is that the second person to lag must hit his
> ball before the first ball strikes the far cushion. I've known
> one carom player to wait until his opponent's cue ball was
> halfway back from the far rail before he would lag, the better to
> get a reading on the speed of the cloth. I imagine he was
> surprised the first time a foul on his lag was called.
>
> And then you'll run into the crudbum who will insist that if your
> lagged ball hits the second rail you lose.
>
> > So far as my questionable flipping goes, I can just have the
> > other person flip (or at least that specific player) from now
> > on and that will settle that....
>
> As they flip, call it by muttering "crllds" under your breath.
> That should be good for some excitement. I usually call "HEADS!"
> before my opponent gets the coin out of his pocket.
>
> --
>
> Bob Jewett
> http://www.sfbilliards.com/
>




01 Jul 2004 11:21:08
Bill
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

"Snoozy" wrote in message
>
> I would have said something like, "Why don't you go ahead and break
> then since you are the only one who cares."...
>

Hummm... That's a good one! Actually thinking about it, this guy many
times has said "does that mean I can break?" when I have won the flip in
the past. I thought he was just joking around. Maybe breaking *is* very
important to him. I suppose I could tell him I have read a scientific study
on the internet that the person racking has an advantage and that he can
break if he wants. I'll say this each time I play him. He is a selfish type
person, so I'd bet he would want to start racking after a bit of this
treatment.

I do plan to ask him what he considers a fair flip of the coin. I'll want
specifics though. How high, how many times the coin must rotate, etc.

I've been searching the internet for what is considered a fair coin flip
and have found nothing except reference to double headed coins. Actually
the math guys say that because people flip coins in different ways, it is
more random.




01 Jul 2004 18:20:08
Tracy Beal
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:03:40 -0500, "John Barton" <rsb@jbideas.com >
wrote:


>I won a few of those to the discontent of my opponents.

Not if the opponent knew it was a foul. :-)

Tracy


Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.


01 Jul 2004 16:16:58
Tony DeAngelo
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!



John Barton wrote:
> Just to be a smart ass I used to hit the lag had enough to go three rails.
> I won a few of those to the discontent of my opponents.
>
> John


Just to be a smart ass I'd cite the BCA rule on lagging that says you lost.




01 Jul 2004 15:23:09
John Barton
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Last time I checked, which was quite a long time ago, it wasn't a foul. As
I remember it it was only that the cueball could not touch the siderails. I
either don't "remember" it correctly, never had it right in the first place
or it has changed if it is a foul now.

This is from the BCA website and I don't think that G. was always part of
the rule. Or at least wasn't part of the ruleset 15 years ago when I was
lagging that way.

(a) The ball crosses into the opponent's half of the table;

(b) The ball fails to contact the foot cushion;

(c) The ball drops into a pocket;

(d) The ball jumps off the table;

(e) The ball touches the long cushion;

(f) The ball rests within the corner pocket and past the nose of the
head cushion, or;

(g) The ball contacts the foot rail more than once. If both players
violate automatic-loss lag rules, or if the referee is unable to determine
which ball is closer, the lag is a tie and is replayed.


John


"Tracy Beal" <tvbeal@earthNospamlink.net > wrote in message
news:6bl8e09tg6gh080jpgu50r32hs610kscib@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:03:40 -0500, "John Barton" <rsb@jbideas.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >I won a few of those to the discontent of my opponents.
>
> Not if the opponent knew it was a foul. :-)
>
> Tracy
>
>
> Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.




01 Jul 2004 15:25:24
John Barton
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

I have a related question. Is the winner of the coin flip/lag allowed to
give up the break and if so, does the other player have to take it? Can the
player whose break it is give up the break any time it is their turn to
break?

John




01 Jul 2004 20:48:04
Tracy Beal
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:23:09 -0500, "John Barton" <rsb@jbideas.com >
wrote:

>Or at least wasn't part of the ruleset 15 years ago when I was
>lagging that way.

That could be. I don't know how it was worded 15 years ago. :-)

Tracy

Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.


01 Jul 2004 20:51:57
Tracy Beal
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:25:24 -0500, "John Barton" <rsb@jbideas.com >
wrote:

>Is the winner of the coin flip/lag allowed to
>give up the break and if so, does the other player have to take it? Can the
>player whose break it is give up the break any time it is their turn to
>break?
Good questions. I would say yes to the first one. For the second,
would forfeiting the break be a foul and the opponent get BIH anywhere
on the table?

Tracy
Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.


01 Jul 2004 21:26:27
Eddie
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!


I had some jerk say something about a coin flip once.
I toss the coin - not real high I will admit - and I win the toss. He said
something along the lines of "no, what was that? you didn't flip it high
enough..... you have to flip it higher," something like that. I remember
getting real agressive and saying something like "you lost, I'm not f***ing
fliping that coin again! I think he must have backed off because I don't
remember much else about it.

One time I was flipping for the break in a pretty big tournament. It was
about the middle of the tournament. I had my cue on the nine foot Gold
Crown - parallel with and almost under the long rail but not quite. You
guessed it. The guy flips a quarter high in the air and it comes down across
the table and right on top of my shaft about two inches from the ferrule. It
put a pretty good dent in it. I had to play the rest of the tournament with
that dent messing with me the whole time.

That first break is very important. Many players in your average bar box
eight ball tournament run out one time in five.
I prefer to lag.

There is a table in a local hang out down the road. I still don't know
exactly what it is about that bar box but I can hardly ever make a ball on
the break. They have a tournament there every week plus free pool on Wed.
and Thur. so I stop in quite frequently since it's right down the street.
That table is probably the hardest breakin table I've ever played on. I'm
way under fifty percent on that table. WAY UNDER. I usually don't break that
hard, but believe me my break doesn't exactly suck.
My mater what method I use it just doesn't seem to help me make balls.
There have been a couple of times where I've heard coments from twenty feet
away in the bar like "wholly s**t!, did you see how hard that guy hit that
break!" or "watch this guy break." so I figure I'm not just imagining that
I'm putting my Sammy Sosa swing on that thing once in a while, I really
have crushed it once or twice :) More often than not though, no love.

I have used that crazy breaking table to my advantage several times though.
I have offered other strong players the breaks as incentive to get them to
step up and try me for the cash. They probably calculate that they're
getting something like a twenty percent spot right off the bat.
Oh no they're not.
I started to make my oponent break on that table when I win the coin flip
some time ago.
Why wouldn't I, like I said earlier, I know that my chances of making a ball
are far less than half.

Eddie in Detroit






01 Jul 2004 15:46:19
Laurent Rochette
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Bill wrote:
> "Snoozy" wrote in message
>
>>I would have said something like, "Why don't you go ahead and break
>>then since you are the only one who cares."...
>>
>
>
> Hummm... That's a good one! Actually thinking about it, this guy many
> times has said "does that mean I can break?" when I have won the flip in
> the past. I thought he was just joking around. Maybe breaking *is* very
> important to him. I suppose I could tell him I have read a scientific study
> on the internet that the person racking has an advantage and that he can
> break if he wants. I'll say this each time I play him. He is a selfish type
> person, so I'd bet he would want to start racking after a bit of this
> treatment.
>
> I do plan to ask him what he considers a fair flip of the coin. I'll want
> specifics though. How high, how many times the coin must rotate, etc.
>
> I've been searching the internet for what is considered a fair coin flip
> and have found nothing except reference to double headed coins. Actually
> the math guys say that because people flip coins in different ways, it is
> more random.
>
>

I heard a show on radio about coin flipping and it is not at all random.
The position of your coin at the start fo the flip is important. It has
more chances to fall on the side as the coin wobble more than rotate.

Of course they did the test with a machine which flipped the coin the
same way every time.

The "semi-randomness" comes from your finger/hand action.

Laurent


01 Jul 2004 19:36:59
Ed Chauvin IV
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Mere moments before death, Bill hastily scrawled:
>I've been searching the internet for what is considered a fair coin flip
>and have found nothing except reference to double headed coins. Actually
>the math guys say that because people flip coins in different ways, it is
>more random.

No it ain't.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040228/fob2.asp

"Between the perfectly spinning toss and the flat toss lies a
continuum of other possibilities, in which the coin spins around a
tilted axis, precessing like an old-fashioned children's top. Each of
these possibilities is biased, the team found. The bias is most
pronounced when the flip is close to being a flat toss. For a wide
range of possible spins, the coin never flips at all, the team
proved."



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin


01 Jul 2004 16:46:13
Aunty Dan
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

I've always believed winning the toss or lag wins you the right to choose to
breaking or to make your opponent. In 9 or 8 ball you'd usually choose to
break, but in Straight pool you usually always want to chose not to break

--
Aunty Dan (Remove "X" from "XHotmail.com" to reply directly)
------------------------------------------
"For 'tis the sport to have the engineer
Hoisted with his own petard."
- W. Shakespeare
---------------------------------------

"Tracy Beal" <tvbeal@earthNospamlink.net > wrote in message
news:n5u8e0pg5saf6v9b55hqhef1s3754u6anp@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:25:24 -0500, "John Barton" <rsb@jbideas.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Is the winner of the coin flip/lag allowed to
> >give up the break and if so, does the other player have to take it? Can
the
> >player whose break it is give up the break any time it is their turn to
> >break?
> Good questions. I would say yes to the first one. For the second,
> would forfeiting the break be a foul and the opponent get BIH anywhere
> on the table?
>
> Tracy
> Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.




02 Jul 2004 00:16:13
Jimbo Ct
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Bill ax: >How are disputes like this usually settled?

Flip a coin.

Jim <----?????


02 Jul 2004 00:23:17
Deno J. Andrews
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

In Billiards, winning the lag gives you the choice to break or not. In 1992
at SL Billiards in New York for a world-class event, Sang Lee had the balls
so juiced up with silicone that hardly anyone (except him of course) could
make the break. One of the best players in the world was starting a game
with Mazin Shooni, a solid American player. The European won the lag and
looked at Shooni and said "you break," which is hardly ever done in
billiards because the break is such a hanger. Shooni missed the break by an
embarassing margin and the Euro ran five or six off the mistake.

Deno

"Aunty Dan" <auntydan@xhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:10e98icg9eo457f@corp.supernews.com...
> I've always believed winning the toss or lag wins you the right to choose
to
> breaking or to make your opponent. In 9 or 8 ball you'd usually choose to
> break, but in Straight pool you usually always want to chose not to break
>
> --
> Aunty Dan (Remove "X" from "XHotmail.com" to reply directly)
> ------------------------------------------
> "For 'tis the sport to have the engineer
> Hoisted with his own petard."
> - W. Shakespeare
> ---------------------------------------
>
> "Tracy Beal" <tvbeal@earthNospamlink.net> wrote in message
> news:n5u8e0pg5saf6v9b55hqhef1s3754u6anp@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:25:24 -0500, "John Barton" <rsb@jbideas.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Is the winner of the coin flip/lag allowed to
> > >give up the break and if so, does the other player have to take it?
Can
> the
> > >player whose break it is give up the break any time it is their turn to
> > >break?
> > Good questions. I would say yes to the first one. For the second,
> > would forfeiting the break be a foul and the opponent get BIH anywhere
> > on the table?
> >
> > Tracy
> > Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.
>
>




02 Jul 2004 00:36:07
Tracy Beal
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:23:17 GMT, "Deno J. Andrews"
<denoandrews@sbcglobal.net > wrote:

>In Billiards, winning the lag gives you the choice to break or not. In 1992
>at SL Billiards in New York for a world-class event, Sang Lee had the balls
>so juiced up with silicone that hardly anyone (except him of course) could
>make the break.
How long does a ball stay juiced? Does it juice the cloth? Is juicing
legal? I just learned all this juice lingo yesterday and have no idea.
Can it ruin the cloth? Is there a special method for cleaning it off
the cloth?
>One of the best players in the world was starting a game
>with Mazin Shooni, a solid American player. The European won the lag and
>looked at Shooni and said "you break," which is hardly ever done in
>billiards because the break is such a hanger. Shooni missed the break by an
>embarassing margin and the Euro ran five or six off the mistake.
How could he do this, does the juice wear off after one shot?

Tracy

Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.


01 Jul 2004 19:28:59
Snoozy
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

"Eddie" wrote $bs4.19341@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net >...

> There is a table in a local hang out down the road. I still don't know
> exactly what it is about that bar box but I can hardly ever make a ball on
> the break.

Sounds like dead rails. Or maybe a little high. The rails, that is,
not you. Unless there's more to the story.

One of my favorite breaks might work on that table. Go for the 3rd
ball down with heavy bottom. Because the rails are a little dead or
high the cb won't fly. This break get a lot of strange side to side
action. The cb hits 2 rails and comes back through the pack. The 8
ball almost always gets good movement.

It won't work on some tables (tables with real lively rails or
installed a little low) cause the cb flys.

Snoozy


02 Jul 2004 03:23:02
Deno J. Andrews
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

On a carom table the juice will slowly wear off over about 40 or so innings,
depending on what kind of juice is applied. There is straight silicone that
is sprayed onto a rag, and then applied to the balls...that makes the balls
very slippery at first and then very sticky as it wears, so the difference
in playability over a game can be dramatic if you are not getting out in 15
innings or so (meaning basically the whole world minus 20 or so players).
Then there are silicone or glycerine based waxes which can take slightly
longer to wear off. Finally a no silicone wax is sort of the least
offensive and a nice way to consistently keep the balls cleaned and playing
well.

As far as juicing goes, there aren't any rules against it and it is
basically up to the tournament director to decide. However, it is
controversial because it is common to switch juices in the middle of the
tournament to get the tables playing to the best players' liking. Every
tournament director in the country has probably done it including me in the
past. These days when I have a tournament, I announce the method I will use
and will stick to it the entire tournament no matter who complains about it.
I used to care what players like Sang Lee said and how they wanted the
tables to play...then I started thinking about the field as a whole and
decided it was far more important for the tables and balls to be consistent,
even if that was slightly below what optimum conditions are for the best
players. I don't mean to pick on Sang Lee because he can and has played on
anything and still beat everyone, but his tournaments are famous for the
"Sang Lee Juice," which is a 3M product with a glycerine base that makes the
balls hard to pick up they are so slippery.

The cloth is pretty safe from it all except that some people spray a light
mist of silicone either on the bed or they wipe it one the rails. They are
uninformed and think that they are doing something right when they are
really building up the silicone on the table and rails, which eventually
turns black. If they wash the table regularly it isn't such a big problem.
What their problem is is that they don't keep the balls in good condition
which is a lot harder than spraying some silicone on the table.

Deno

"Tracy Beal" <tvbeal@earthNospamlink.net > wrote in message
news:m0b9e0lkd5qo4ovhaq4bg6hf0e15f3c3de@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:23:17 GMT, "Deno J. Andrews"
> <denoandrews@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >In Billiards, winning the lag gives you the choice to break or not. In
1992
> >at SL Billiards in New York for a world-class event, Sang Lee had the
balls
> >so juiced up with silicone that hardly anyone (except him of course)
could
> >make the break.
> How long does a ball stay juiced? Does it juice the cloth? Is juicing
> legal? I just learned all this juice lingo yesterday and have no idea.
> Can it ruin the cloth? Is there a special method for cleaning it off
> the cloth?
> >One of the best players in the world was starting a game
> >with Mazin Shooni, a solid American player. The European won the lag and
> >looked at Shooni and said "you break," which is hardly ever done in
> >billiards because the break is such a hanger. Shooni missed the break by
an
> >embarassing margin and the Euro ran five or six off the mistake.
> How could he do this, does the juice wear off after one shot?
>
> Tracy
>
> Remove "NOSPAM" to reply.




01 Jul 2004 22:50:43
Ron Shepard
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

In article <2ki2doF2e532U1@uni-berlin.de >,
"Bill" <bill190nospam@yahoo.com > wrote:

> Has anyone else had any disputes with coin flipping?

I know some people who are good at slight of hand, and if they flip,
you are almost certain to lose.

I also know people who carry around a coin with two "tails". Most
people call "heads".

I have been in pool rooms where the owners do not allow coin
flipping. They believe that the coin can cut threads in the cloth
when it lands. I've also seen rooms where it is alright, or at
least tolerated, to flip a dime or a penny, but not a heavier coin.

$.02 -Ron Shepard


02 Jul 2004 04:15:12
Deno J. Andrews
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

I have seen cloth under a microscope that has had this done under experiment
and the results are brutal. I wish I had a digital picture of what I saw
because it was truly amazing. You can't really see it with the eye, but
under magnification you can clearly see damage. Coins are bad. Lags are
good.
Deno

"Ron Shepard" <ron-shepard@NOSPAM.comcast.net > wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-D77467.22504301072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <2ki2doF2e532U1@uni-berlin.de>,
> "Bill" <bill190nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone else had any disputes with coin flipping?
>
> I know some people who are good at slight of hand, and if they flip,
> you are almost certain to lose.
>
> I also know people who carry around a coin with two "tails". Most
> people call "heads".
>
> I have been in pool rooms where the owners do not allow coin
> flipping. They believe that the coin can cut threads in the cloth
> when it lands. I've also seen rooms where it is alright, or at
> least tolerated, to flip a dime or a penny, but not a heavier coin.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard




01 Jul 2004 23:03:15
Bill
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Thanks - Great story. I'll give this to my "friend" and explain that the
*height* of the flip does not assure a good flip necessarily....


"Ed Chauvin IV" wrote in message
>
> No it ain't.
>
> http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040228/fob2.asp
>
> "Between the perfectly spinning toss and the flat toss lies a
> continuum of other possibilities, in which the coin spins around a
> tilted axis, precessing like an old-fashioned children's top. Each of
> these possibilities is biased, the team found. The bias is most
> pronounced when the flip is close to being a flat toss. For a wide
> range of possible spins, the coin never flips at all, the team
> proved."
>
>




01 Jul 2004 23:17:41
Bill
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

LOL! Ok, I almost ruined my keyboard.... I should learn not take a sip of
a drink before clicking on the next post.

Actually that is a good idea. Have a third party flip a coin to determine
if the my coin flip was acceptable or not. I would have gone for that at
the time if someone suggested it. I think that would have been a little
more fair then just letting him get his way and my flipping again.


"Jimbo Ct" wrote in message
> Bill ax: >How are disputes like this usually settled?
>
> Flip a coin.
>
> Jim <----?????




02 Jul 2004 07:47:56
Frank Glenn
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

In article <554ad6a9.0407011828.6a99c9e9@posting.google.com >,
snoozy@chocolatarian.com says...
:|:Go for the 3rd
:|:ball down with heavy bottom.
:|:

This is a foul, IIRC.
Frank


02 Jul 2004 07:14:08
Pat Hall
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

I don't think so in 8-ball. It obviously is in 9-ball

PatH

Frank Glenn wrote:
> In article <554ad6a9.0407011828.6a99c9e9@posting.google.com>,
> snoozy@chocolatarian.com says...
> :|:Go for the 3rd
> :|:ball down with heavy bottom.
> :|:
>
> This is a foul, IIRC.
> Frank



02 Jul 2004 09:52:42
Frank Glenn
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

In article <10eakbuofcrk667@corp.supernews.com >,
phall@notsospam.certcoinc.com says...
:|:I don't think so in 8-ball. It obviously is in 9-ball
:|:
:|:PatH
:|:
:|:Frank Glenn wrote:
:|: > In article <554ad6a9.0407011828.6a99c9e9@posting.google.com>,
:|: > snoozy@chocolatarian.com says...
:|: > :|:Go for the 3rd
:|: > :|:ball down with heavy bottom.
:|: > :|:
:|: >
:|: > This is a foul, IIRC.
:|: > Frank
:|:
:|:

I don't see it in BCA, but I think it is stated in APA rules to hit
the first or second ball. I could be wrong.
Frank


02 Jul 2004 09:11:35
Pat Hall
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

I've never played APA but BCA and VNEA I think all you have to do is
drive 4 balls to a rail. I had a friend who used to do a break where
he'd freeze the cue ball to the rail at he head of the kitchen. Then
he'd drive the cue ball into the rail and it would squirt off the rail
catch the head rail and hit the rack in the back. He had pretty good
success making a ball and getting good spread but I always thought he'd
break a shaft one day.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Ph1C9%WD2K1%Xg4C2%YI2O2%ZC4K3
%[h9D9%p0J8
)END

I can't remember where he hit the cue ball though.


PatH

Frank Glenn wrote:

> In article <10eakbuofcrk667@corp.supernews.com>,
> phall@notsospam.certcoinc.com says...
> :|:I don't think so in 8-ball. It obviously is in 9-ball
> :|:
> :|:PatH
> :|:
> :|:Frank Glenn wrote:
> :|:> In article <554ad6a9.0407011828.6a99c9e9@posting.google.com>,
> :|:> snoozy@chocolatarian.com says...
> :|:> :|:Go for the 3rd
> :|:> :|:ball down with heavy bottom.
> :|:> :|:
> :|:>
> :|:> This is a foul, IIRC.
> :|:> Frank
> :|:
> :|:
>
> I don't see it in BCA, but I think it is stated in APA rules to hit
> the first or second ball. I could be wrong.
> Frank



02 Jul 2004 09:31:33
sean
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

snoozy@chocolatarian.com (Snoozy) wrote in message
>
> One of my favorite breaks might work on that table. Go for the 3rd
> ball down with heavy bottom. Because the rails are a little dead or
> high the cb won't fly. This break get a lot of strange side to side
> action. The cb hits 2 rails and comes back through the pack. The 8
> ball almost always gets good movement.
>
> Snoozy


If you're actually hitting the 3rd ball first, then this is a foul. In
8-ball, you have to hit the head ball of the 2nd row first.

sean


02 Jul 2004 09:58:04
Jennifer
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

Honey, if that's your biggest worry in life, you got it made... :)

--
Jennifer
http://hardtimesbellflower.com

"Bill" <bill190nospam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:2ki2doF2e532U1@uni-berlin.de...
> OK, I'm playing in this double elimination tournament, it is late
> (midnight) and we are down to the last 4 players. I've lost one game
> already. It is *very* unlikely I would win any more games since the
> remaining players are much better than I am.
>
> It is my turn to play another player who usually beats me, I am very tired
> and want to go home, so I'm thinking, if I get lucky, I'll make sure he
> wins, then I can leave. At this point I could care less about winning the
> tournament. Just want to go home.
>
> Anyway I flip a coin and win the flip to break. Then this guy says I did
> not flip the coin high enough and that my coin flip is unacceptable! And
> that I should flip again! That the coin must go high up in the air!
>
> Well I've been playing this guy for about 8 months and he has never said
> anything about my coin flipping before. For that matter, neither has
anyone
> else.
>
> He seemed to be implying that I somehow was cheating by not throwing my
> coin high enough and that I was somehow able to make the coin face up in
my
> favor.
>
> Had he been watching more closely, he would have seen me reach in my
> pocket, get out a quarter *without* looking at it, jiggle it in my palm to
> mix it up, then throw it up just a little.
>
> I would think I would have needed to look at it first to throw it with a
> predictable outcome. Duh!
>
> Anyway I'll admit I am not the best coin flipper in the world. Actually I
> try not to flip it too high because it has landed in a pocket or on the
> floor in the past. I am trying to keep it on the table.
>
> Also if I was somehow able to control my "lousy" flips, I would be wanting
> to flip all the time, and I would be breaking all the time. This is not
the
> case. In reality, I could care less who breaks (usually). I do better if
> the other player breaks and runs a few of his balls off the table and gets
> them out of my way.
>
> Anyway I was quite pissed that he was implying that I was cheating when I
> was not. I refused to flip again and he refused to rack. So I refused to
> play and decided to forfeit the game. I wanted to go home anyway. I did
not
> want to allow him to change/make the rules in the middle of the game so to
> speak. And it would have been unacceptable for me to flip again. (A matter
> of principal here.)
>
> Actually the tournament has no rules about coin flipping. Which brings me
> to my question(s)...
>
> Has anyone else had any disputes with coin flipping?
>
> Is there an acceptable way to flip a coin?
>
> What are unacceptable ways to flip a coin?
>
> Any written rules on this anywhere?
>
> How are disputes like this usually settled? (People should not be able to
> question the flip and ask for another flip just because they lost the
flip.
> This would not be fair to say the least.)
>
> Note that I did play a guy once who did the flipping for the break. I
> called heads. It was heads (so I should break). He then picked his coin up
> and threw it my direction, then he walked away from the table as if he had
> won the flip. I was amused by this, so I just let it fly and racked the
> balls. (And as I said, it does not matter usually if the other person
> breaks.) I won the game anyway.
>
> So far as my questionable flipping goes, I can just have the other person
> flip (or at least that specific player) from now on and that will settle
> that....
>
>
>
>




03 Jul 2004 12:40:32
Snoozy
Re: Coin Flipping Disputes!

(sean) wrote
> If you're actually hitting the 3rd ball first, then this is a foul. In
> 8-ball, you have to hit the head ball of the 2nd row first.

I've never played APA before so didn't know that in that little niche
of the pool world it was a foul. The rest of the world doesn't call
it a foul.

Snoozy