27 Nov 2006 21:00:55
Mannie Popovici
Definition of Commuter Schools

Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?




28 Nov 2006 11:55:05
TimV
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

"Mannie Popovici" <emanuelp10@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:E5WdnRu8R7_iX_bYnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
>


I always think of it in terms of what percentage of the students are
full-time, traditional students. Most commuter schools have lots of
part-timers or non-traditional students, and often have lower admission
standards than the flagship public universities in the state.

T



28 Nov 2006 06:23:16
McMahone
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Mannie Popovici wrote:
> Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?

I wouldn't normally think of "living off campus" as commuting. I lived
off campus at La. Tech, but was actually closer to my classes than I
would have been in a dorm. Then you have schools like Baylor that
don't have enough dorms, but they have a huge apartment village
surrounding the campus where students live. They may have to drive to
campus, but they aren't really what I'd think of as commuters either.

The difference would have to be more in terms of how the students
relate to the campus. Do they only show up for class and then drive
back home? Or are they part of the whole campus life?

Marty



28 Nov 2006 09:26:14
Chris Mihos
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

McMahone wrote:

> The difference would have to be more in terms of how the students
> relate to the campus. Do they only show up for class and then drive
> back home? Or are they part of the whole campus life?

commuter students: show up for class, then leave campus.
regular students: skip class, live on campus.

--
chris
"my point? #@&*! you, that's my point." -- Bucky Katt
"shut up, soapy!" -- Bucky Katt


28 Nov 2006 06:27:19
Kevrob
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

TimV wrote:
> "Mannie Popovici" <emanuelp10@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:E5WdnRu8R7_iX_bYnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> > Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> > campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> > universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> > instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
> >
>
>
> I always think of it in terms of what percentage of the students are
> full-time, traditional students. Most commuter schools have lots of
> part-timers or non-traditional students, and often have lower admission
> standards than the flagship public universities in the state.
>
> T

There may be a lot of full-time students living off campus who moved
out of the dorms after their first few semesters at any non-"commuter"
school in an urban area. The key determinant of a CS is the % of
students who grew up and graduated high school in commuting range of
campus. A commuter school can be hard to get into. Before the advent
of "open enrollment" at CUNY, the City College of New York (now one
Campus of the City University of New York) was a tough school. CCNY
wasn't bad at hoops, back in the day, either. A commuter school has
fewer out-of-state admits and their in-state ones are concentrated from
the immediate metro area.

Many an urban university not thought of as an historical "commuter
school" has added or expanded its Evening Division, for both undergrad
and graduate programs. Keeping that physical plant occupied and
bringing in students who are paying by the credit helps with the
budget. Even traditional students have been known to avail themselves
of evening sections to help with their schedules, be that because of a
job, an internship, or a felt need to sleep in on Friday mornings. :)
Actually, a class with real world applications (in business, economics,
politics, engineering, etc.) can be enhanced by having some adult
members with RW experience under their belts.

Also, just because the undergrad population may skew towards those who
live on or near campus v. those who live at home and commute, (or vice
versa), the grad schools may have their own demographics.

The "commuter school" tag intersects with basketball when a program is
trying to build up its attendance, and wants a raucous student section.
Commuters may find it harder to fit going to games into their busy
schedules, especially if their classes are held at tip-off time, or
they have to work when the team is playing. On the plus side, if in
place of 1 student taking 16 credits, you have 3 part-timers taking 6
each, the size of the "family" gets expanded. If a coach and AD can
energize that larger universe of potential fans, they can develop
strong community support.

Kevin



28 Nov 2006 06:33:06
Jon Enslin
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Mannie Popovici wrote:
> Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?


I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school. A school
like UCLA or Minnesota might have a high number of students that
commute back to their parent's homes, but many of them live on or near
campus on their own.

UW-Milwaukee is trying to become that, but they are running into
trouble. UWM, San Jose State, and Houston aren't really "destination
universities" like UCLA, Minnesota, or Ohio State.

Jon



28 Nov 2006 06:42:28
Kevrob
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Jon Enslin wrote:
> Mannie Popovici wrote:
> > Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> > campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> > universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> > instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
>
>
> I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
> like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school. A school
> like UCLA or Minnesota might have a high number of students that
> commute back to their parent's homes, but many of them live on or near
> campus on their own.
>
> UW-Milwaukee is trying to become that, but they are running into
> trouble.

UW-Milwaukee has a huge off-campus student population in its nearby
neighborhoods, but in many cases those students are from Southeastern
Wisconsin. Parking on campus is limited, and near campus it's a mess,
so moving out of Mom & Dad''s house and renting a flat or a house makes
sense. UWM is trying to add more dorms, but claims that its lakeside
campus is "land-locked."

> UWM, San Jose State, and Houston aren't really "destination
> universities" like UCLA, Minnesota, or Ohio State.
>

Kevin



28 Nov 2006 06:50:07
Jon Enslin
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Kevrob wrote:
> Jon Enslin wrote:
> > Mannie Popovici wrote:
> > > Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> > > campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> > > universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> > > instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
> >
> >
> > I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
> > like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school. A school
> > like UCLA or Minnesota might have a high number of students that
> > commute back to their parent's homes, but many of them live on or near
> > campus on their own.
> >
> > UW-Milwaukee is trying to become that, but they are running into
> > trouble.
>
> UW-Milwaukee has a huge off-campus student population in its nearby
> neighborhoods, but in many cases those students are from Southeastern
> Wisconsin. Parking on campus is limited, and near campus it's a mess,
> so moving out of Mom & Dad''s house and renting a flat or a house makes
> sense. UWM is trying to add more dorms, but claims that its lakeside
> campus is "land-locked."


I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty. They have
made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.

Jon



28 Nov 2006 14:55:31
Dan S.
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"McMahone" <mmcmahone@umhb.edu > wrote in message
news:1164723796.897294.116340@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>
> Mannie Popovici wrote:
>> Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
>> campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to
>> most
>> universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools
>> for
>> instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
>
> I wouldn't normally think of "living off campus" as commuting. I lived
> off campus at La. Tech, but was actually closer to my classes than I
> would have been in a dorm. Then you have schools like Baylor that
> don't have enough dorms, but they have a huge apartment village
> surrounding the campus where students live. They may have to drive to
> campus, but they aren't really what I'd think of as commuters either.
>
> The difference would have to be more in terms of how the students
> relate to the campus. Do they only show up for class and then drive
> back home? Or are they part of the whole campus life?
>
> Marty
>
I went to IUSB here. It is what most would call a commuter college.
Although I grew up 2 blocks away from it, a great many of the students
travel 30 minutes or more to get to class.

I didn't join any clubs, I didn't go to any games, I didn't use the
multi-million dollar athletic facility. I may not have felt connected to
the campus possibly because I felt too connected. It would have been kind
of like kissing your sister to try to become involved. They are now
building dorms and stuff. Maybe it will be a cool school someday.

--
Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.




28 Nov 2006 07:07:24
Kevrob
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Jon Enslin wrote:
> Kevrob wrote:
> > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > Mannie Popovici wrote:
> > > > Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> > > > campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> > > > universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> > > > instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
> > >
> > >
> > > I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
> > > like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school. A school
> > > like UCLA or Minnesota might have a high number of students that
> > > commute back to their parent's homes, but many of them live on or near
> > > campus on their own.
> > >
> > > UW-Milwaukee is trying to become that, but they are running into
> > > trouble.
> >
> > UW-Milwaukee has a huge off-campus student population in its nearby
> > neighborhoods, but in many cases those students are from Southeastern
> > Wisconsin. Parking on campus is limited, and near campus it's a mess,
> > so moving out of Mom & Dad''s house and renting a flat or a house makes
> > sense. UWM is trying to add more dorms, but claims that its lakeside
> > campus is "land-locked."
>
>
> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty. They have
> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>
>

Not to mention a better one 3 miles away. :)

Kevin



28 Nov 2006 07:10:04
Jon Enslin
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Kevrob wrote:
> Jon Enslin wrote:
> > Kevrob wrote:
> > > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > > Mannie Popovici wrote:
> > > > > Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> > > > > campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> > > > > universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> > > > > instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
> > > > like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school. A school
> > > > like UCLA or Minnesota might have a high number of students that
> > > > commute back to their parent's homes, but many of them live on or near
> > > > campus on their own.
> > > >
> > > > UW-Milwaukee is trying to become that, but they are running into
> > > > trouble.
> > >
> > > UW-Milwaukee has a huge off-campus student population in its nearby
> > > neighborhoods, but in many cases those students are from Southeastern
> > > Wisconsin. Parking on campus is limited, and near campus it's a mess,
> > > so moving out of Mom & Dad''s house and renting a flat or a house makes
> > > sense. UWM is trying to add more dorms, but claims that its lakeside
> > > campus is "land-locked."
> >
> >
> > I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> > profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> > more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty. They have
> > made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> > have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
> >
> >
>
> Not to mention a better one 3 miles away. :)


You can say that again pilgrim. (MU '91)

Jon



28 Nov 2006 09:53:21
stephenj
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Mannie Popovici wrote:
> Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> campus a commuter school by definition?

% of on vs. off campus living is only part of it. the other part, and
the more meaningful part, is the culture of the campus. does it have a
lively on-and-around campus cultural life or no?


--
"when i visited Aden before collectivization,
all the markets were full of fish product. After
collectivization, the fish immediately disappeared."

- Aleksandr Vassiliev, Soviet KGB official


28 Nov 2006 09:54:45
stephenj
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Jon Enslin wrote:
> Mannie Popovici wrote:
>
>>Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
>>campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
>>universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
>>instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
>
>
>
> I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
> like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school.

yes. when i attended USF in the 80s, it's nickname was "the world's
largest community college", which reflected the drive-in/drive-out
mentality and near-absence of "things happening on and around campus"
that characterized it.


--
"when i visited Aden before collectivization,
all the markets were full of fish product. After
collectivization, the fish immediately disappeared."

- Aleksandr Vassiliev, Soviet KGB official


28 Nov 2006 10:56:56
Edward M. Kennedy
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

"Chris Mihos" <hos@knowspaam.burro.astr.cwru.edu > wrote

> > The difference would have to be more in terms of how the students
> > relate to the campus. Do they only show up for class and then drive
> > back home? Or are they part of the whole campus life?
>
> commuter students: show up for class, then leave campus.
> regular students: skip class, live on campus.

I like the way you drink.

--Tedward


28 Nov 2006 08:17:35
Mannie Popovici
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"stephenj" <sjek@cox.net > wrote in message
news:aZYah.9544$XH4.2342@newsfe14.lga...
> Jon Enslin wrote:
>> Mannie Popovici wrote:
>>
>>>Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
>>>campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to
>>>most
>>>universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools
>>>for
>>>instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
>> like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school.
>
> yes. when i attended USF in the 80s, it's nickname was "the world's
> largest community college", which reflected the drive-in/drive-out
> mentality and near-absence of "things happening on and around campus" that
> characterized it.

I actually attended Texas for undergraduate and then very recently USF for
graduate school. I didn't see much difference except the campus at USF is
structured much more around the use of a car as USF is a much newer school
(1956) outside the city and with a larger campus while Texas has a
relatively small campus next to downtown Austin. It would be like comparing
older cities like Boston or NYC to newer cities like Houston or LA. The only
big difference I saw is the use/need for a car.

USF must have changed a lot since you went, as I found it to be very active
on campus. There were always people around at the Intramural Fields for
instance which are conveniently located on campus (unlike at Texas where
they are in a separate part of town so if you don't have a car you wouldn't
go). It also seemed there are more out-of-state/international students at
USF than at Texas where pretty much everybody is from Austin or Dallas. Last
but not least USF has much more student apartment complexes next to campus
while at Texas most are located 2-3 exits down the freeway (Riverside). So I
really don't see what would make USF a commuter school while Texas a
residential one. I think they are both destination universities with a large
off-campus student population.




28 Nov 2006 11:35:43
Edward M. Kennedy
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

"Mannie Popovici" <emanuelp10@yahoo.com > wrote

> >>>Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> >>>campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to
> >>>most
> >>>universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools
> >>>for
> >>>instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
> >> like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school.
> >
> > yes. when i attended USF in the 80s, it's nickname was "the world's
> > largest community college", which reflected the drive-in/drive-out
> > mentality and near-absence of "things happening on and around campus" that
> > characterized it.
>
> I actually attended Texas for undergraduate and then very recently USF for
> graduate school. I didn't see much difference except the campus at USF is
> structured much more around the use of a car as USF is a much newer school
> (1956) outside the city and with a larger campus while Texas has a
> relatively small campus next to downtown Austin. It would be like comparing
> older cities like Boston or NYC to newer cities like Houston or LA. The only
> big difference I saw is the use/need for a car.
>
> USF must have changed a lot since you went, as I found it to be very active
> on campus. There were always people around at the Intramural Fields for
> instance which are conveniently located on campus (unlike at Texas where
> they are in a separate part of town so if you don't have a car you wouldn't
> go). It also seemed there are more out-of-state/international students at
> USF than at Texas where pretty much everybody is from Austin or Dallas. Last
> but not least USF has much more student apartment complexes next to campus
> while at Texas most are located 2-3 exits down the freeway (Riverside). So I
> really don't see what would make USF a commuter school while Texas a
> residential one. I think they are both destination universities with a large
> off-campus student population.

This is many light-years from Duke and NC State,
and Duke is probably a parsec from NCSU. Duke's
campus is well defined, and only a fraction of
undergrads live off campus, which is self-sufficient
from a student's POV. Interaction with Durham
consists mainly of restaurants and movies.

And ABC stores, of course.

--Tedward


28 Nov 2006 19:36:05
Dan S.
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

"Jon Enslin" <jenslin@charter.net > wrote in message
news:1164725407.416323.232970@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> when you
>have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.


University of Chicago?
--
Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.




28 Nov 2006 11:39:14
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Chris Mihos wrote:
> McMahone wrote:
>
> > The difference would have to be more in terms of how the students
> > relate to the campus. Do they only show up for class and then drive
> > back home? Or are they part of the whole campus life?
>
> commuter students: show up for class, then leave campus.
> regular students: skip class, live on campus.

this was actually somewhat witty.


>
> --
> chris
> "my point? #@&*! you, that's my point." -- Bucky Katt
> "shut up, soapy!" -- Bucky Katt



28 Nov 2006 11:53:53
Kevrob
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Dan S. wrote:
> "Jon Enslin" <jenslin@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:1164725407.416323.232970@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> > when you
> >have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>
>
> University of Chicago?
> --
>

That's a perfectly cromulent answer.

Kevin



28 Nov 2006 12:21:26
mianderson
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Jon Enslin wrote:
>
> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.

virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.

I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.


They have
> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.

??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.




>
> Jon



28 Nov 2006 20:47:06
Dan S.
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1164745286.056938.263570@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jon Enslin wrote:
>>
>> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
>> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
>> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
>
> virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
> trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
> medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
> about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
> of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
> their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
> to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
> all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
> etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
> ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
>
> I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
> college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
> same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
> much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
>
>
> They have
>> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
>> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>
> ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
> nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
> other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
> seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.
>
>
>
I believe that he was talking about the University of Chicago. I'd have to
agree w/ jon here. It is widely recognized, historically, as one of the
better economics schools. It's had at least one nobel prize winner on the
faculty. Their research is often cited in peer reviewed journals
everywhere.

--
Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.
>
>>
>> Jon
>




28 Nov 2006 12:54:48
mianderson
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Dan S. wrote:
> "mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1164745286.056938.263570@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Jon Enslin wrote:
> >>
> >> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> >> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> >> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
> >
> > virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
> > trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
> > medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
> > about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
> > of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
> > their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
> > to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
> > all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
> > etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
> > ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
> >
> > I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
> > college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
> > same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
> > much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
> >
> >
> > They have
> >> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> >> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
> >
> > ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
> > nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
> > other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
> > seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.
> >
> >
> >
> I believe that he was talking about the University of Chicago.

oh ok, not knowing the geography of wisconsin and where madison is or
milwaukee, I thought he might be talking about Wisconsin.

OTOH, it doesn't make much sense for him to be talking about Chicago
either(especially in terms of UWW competing for students) because
chicago and UWW don't fight for the same students. You do see some
students decide not to go to Wisconsin and opt for smaller state
universities though(like UWW).


> >
> >>
> >> Jon
> >



28 Nov 2006 21:11:41
TimV
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1164745286.056938.263570@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jon Enslin wrote:
>>
>> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
>> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
>> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
>
> virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
> trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
> medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
> about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
> of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
> their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
> to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
> all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
> etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
> ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
>
> I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
> college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
> same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
> much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
>
>
> They have
>> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
>> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>
> ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
> nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
> other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
> seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.
>

Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look at
how many biotech companies are located in Madison.

T




28 Nov 2006 13:15:40
mianderson
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


TimV wrote:
> >
>
> Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look at
> how many biotech companies are located in Madison.

yes and if you break it down into individual little niches you'll find
40 schools(heck probably more) who are "easily one of the top something
universities".

I'm just talking in general.

>
> T



28 Nov 2006 13:19:59
Mercellus Bohren
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

mianderson wrote:
> TimV wrote:
> > >
> >
> > Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look at
> > how many biotech companies are located in Madison.
>
> yes and if you break it down into individual little niches you'll find
> 40 schools(heck probably more) who are "easily one of the top something
> universities".
>
> I'm just talking in general.
>
> >
> > T

Specifically, here is a list of the top schools in North America.

http://www.aau.edu/aau/aaufact.cfm



28 Nov 2006 21:25:49
TimV
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1164748540.479760.205290@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> TimV wrote:
>> >
>>
>> Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look
>> at
>> how many biotech companies are located in Madison.
>
> yes and if you break it down into individual little niches you'll find
> 40 schools(heck probably more) who are "easily one of the top something
> universities".
>
> I'm just talking in general.
>
>>
>> T
>

Straight out of wiki:

In U.S. News & World Report's ranking of national universities in 2007,
Wisconsin ranked 34th.
[ttp://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php].
Among U.S. universities, UW-Madison is frequently listed as one of the
"public Ivies"-publicly-funded universities providing a quality of education
comparable to those of the Ivy League. In addition to being a top-ranked
school in education, geography, history, and sociology, the university was
recently ranked the second-best college at which to earn an education
degree, and the overall seventh-best public school in the United States. In
the Gourman report on undergraduate programs, the University of Wisconsin
was ranked the third-best public university, after the University of
California, Berkeley and the University of Michigan. Additionally, it was
ranked the seventh-best university in the United States for overall strength
of the undergraduate programs. According to the National Research Council
there are over 70 programs at UW-Madison ranked in the top 10 nationally. In
one study,[2] the University of Wisconsin-Madison was assessed as the 16th
best among world universities. In a 2004 study by Bloomberg Market News,
researchers found that UW-Madison tied Harvard for producing the most CEOs
at Standard & Poor's 500 companies. UW-Madison is second only to Harvard in
the number of doctorates produced in the US, and leads the nation by numbers
of alumni in the Peace Corps. The University is one of 60 elected members of
the Association of American Universities.

I have no dog in this fight, never even been to the state. But by any means,
Wisky is an excellent university. In your primitive language, first tier.

T

--
Remove _yourknickers_ to reply




28 Nov 2006 13:26:20
Jon Enslin
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


mianderson wrote:
> Jon Enslin wrote:
> >
> > I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> > profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> > more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
>
> virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
> trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
> medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
> about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
> of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
> their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
> to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
> all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
> etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
> ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
>
> I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
> college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
> same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
> much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
>
>
> They have
> > made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> > have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>
> ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
> nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
> other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
> seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.


Wisconsin ranks as one of the largest reserach universities in the
country in terms of dollars granted by NSF, NIH and the like pretty
much every year. Last year I believe it was ranked in terms of total
federal support only behind Johns Hopkins, UCLA, and Michigan. I
cannot recall a year in which it was not ranked in the top ten.

That is what universities like UWM are trying to become.

Jon



28 Nov 2006 21:26:09
Dan S.
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1164748540.479760.205290@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> TimV wrote:
>> >
>>
>> Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look
>> at
>> how many biotech companies are located in Madison.
>
> yes and if you break it down into individual little niches you'll find
> 40 schools(heck probably more) who are "easily one of the top something
> universities".
>
> I'm just talking in general.
>
>>
>> T
>

Not too many people want to go to the best General Studies program in the
country. (I can say that because my first undergrad degree is in General
Studies).

--
Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.




28 Nov 2006 13:27:35
Jon Enslin
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Dan S. wrote:
> "mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1164745286.056938.263570@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Jon Enslin wrote:
> >>
> >> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> >> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> >> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
> >
> > virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
> > trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
> > medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
> > about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
> > of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
> > their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
> > to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
> > all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
> > etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
> > ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
> >
> > I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
> > college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
> > same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
> > much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
> >
> >
> > They have
> >> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> >> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
> >
> > ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
> > nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
> > other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
> > seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.
> >
> >
> >
> I believe that he was talking about the University of Chicago. I'd have to
> agree w/ jon here. It is widely recognized, historically, as one of the
> better economics schools. It's had at least one nobel prize winner on the
> faculty. Their research is often cited in peer reviewed journals
> everywhere.


Heh. No. I was not talking about the University of Chicago.

Jon



28 Nov 2006 21:31:24
Dan S.
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"Jon Enslin" <jenslin@charter.net > wrote in message
news:1164749255.618656.247290@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dan S. wrote:
>> "mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com> wrote in message
>> news:1164745286.056938.263570@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Jon Enslin wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
>> >> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
>> >> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
>> >
>> > virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
>> > trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
>> > medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
>> > about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
>> > of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
>> > their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
>> > to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
>> > all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
>> > etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
>> > ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
>> >
>> > I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
>> > college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
>> > same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
>> > much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
>> >
>> >
>> > They have
>> >> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
>> >> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>> >
>> > ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
>> > nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
>> > other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
>> > seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> I believe that he was talking about the University of Chicago. I'd have
>> to
>> agree w/ jon here. It is widely recognized, historically, as one of the
>> better economics schools. It's had at least one nobel prize winner on
>> the
>> faculty. Their research is often cited in peer reviewed journals
>> everywhere.
>
>
> Heh. No. I was not talking about the University of Chicago.
>
> Jon
>
Well, when you said world-class, I just assumed ...

--
Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.




28 Nov 2006 13:34:30
mianderson
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


TimV wrote:
> I have no dog in this fight, never even been to the state. But by any means,
> Wisky is an excellent university. In your primitive language, first tier.

Im sure anyone can get a decent undergrad education there(hell I went
to VSU and learned everything I needed to so Im not one to pull the
academic elitism card), but 34th(really 34th-37th accoring to the
ranking) in one country hardly qualifies as "one of the worlds best".
Harvard, MIT, Stanford, etc are "one of the worlds best". If you throw
large public state universities like Wisconsin into the mix, it kinda
makes the group somewhat less exclusive.

I mean you don't even need to be a great high school student to get
into wisconsin. It's admissions standards don't appear to be any
different from most of the other large state magnet universities in a
state.



>
> T
>
> --
> Remove _yourknickers_ to reply



28 Nov 2006 13:35:24
mianderson
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Dan S. wrote:
> > Heh. No. I was not talking about the University of Chicago.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> Well, when you said world-class, I just assumed ...

haha...I was right!

(I mean you're right in a way too, but I was right for guessing what he
meant)

>
> --
> Yours,
> Dan S.
>
> Reporting to you from South Bend
> -The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
> addictions.



28 Nov 2006 14:03:01
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Jon Enslin wrote:
> Wisconsin ranks as one of the largest reserach universities in the
> country in terms of dollars granted by NSF, NIH and the like pretty
> much every year.

wisconsin ranks 27th in NIH money. which is good, but not great.
Hopkins is #1, with a difference in NIH money between the two of about
300 million dollars.

I can't speak for the NSF because I don't follow that stuff.

But trying to tank "elite universities" on things like NIH money as the
leading factor is sketchy. I mean Princeton doesn't have a medical
school, so it's unfair to compare them to a school like UCLA because
there is almost 300 million dollars in terms of revenue there they
can't make a serious grab at. Is UCLA better than Princeton from the
perspective of a student deciding where to go to college? Either way,
UCLA's 300 million from the NIH shouldn't make a difference in the
analysis for that student.

Virtually all the NIH money from schools like that(including wisconsin)
is going to the professional school with a ton of that going to
translational research with a heavy clinical component. For
universities where the undergraduate is the centerpiece and there isn't
a medical school or other professional schools, I'm not sure that kind
of stuff is of any interest.



28 Nov 2006 14:13:26
Jon Enslin
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


mianderso...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Jon Enslin wrote:
> > Wisconsin ranks as one of the largest reserach universities in the
> > country in terms of dollars granted by NSF, NIH and the like pretty
> > much every year.
>
> wisconsin ranks 27th in NIH money. which is good, but not great.
> Hopkins is #1, with a difference in NIH money between the two of about
> 300 million dollars.

NIH is just part of it. NSF, NEA, NIH, Dod, etc. etc.


>
> I can't speak for the NSF because I don't follow that stuff.
>
> But trying to tank "elite universities" on things like NIH money as the
> leading factor is sketchy. I mean Princeton doesn't have a medical
> school, so it's unfair to compare them to a school like UCLA because
> there is almost 300 million dollars in terms of revenue there they
> can't make a serious grab at. Is UCLA better than Princeton from the
> perspective of a student deciding where to go to college? Either way,
> UCLA's 300 million from the NIH shouldn't make a difference in the
> analysis for that student.

I'm not talking about who is decided to go where. I am talking about
$$$$.

Jon



28 Nov 2006 14:23:45
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Jon Enslin wrote:
> mianderso...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > Wisconsin ranks as one of the largest reserach universities in the
> > > country in terms of dollars granted by NSF, NIH and the like pretty
> > > much every year.
> >
> > wisconsin ranks 27th in NIH money. which is good, but not great.
> > Hopkins is #1, with a difference in NIH money between the two of about
> > 300 million dollars.
>
> NIH is just part of it. NSF, NEA, NIH, Dod, etc. etc.

yeah but at many schools(those that have a medical school) NIH is the
largest chunk. The NSF total research budget for fy 2005 was like 5
billion. Just the top 13 or so medical schools alone topped that. The
NIH budget in general is usually about 5-6 times what the NSF budget
is.

>
>
> >
> > I can't speak for the NSF because I don't follow that stuff.
> >
> > But trying to tank "elite universities" on things like NIH money as the
> > leading factor is sketchy. I mean Princeton doesn't have a medical
> > school, so it's unfair to compare them to a school like UCLA because
> > there is almost 300 million dollars in terms of revenue there they
> > can't make a serious grab at. Is UCLA better than Princeton from the
> > perspective of a student deciding where to go to college? Either way,
> > UCLA's 300 million from the NIH shouldn't make a difference in the
> > analysis for that student.
>
> I'm not talking about who is decided to go where. I am talking about
> $$$$.

but back to the comment about being one of the "world's best
universities". I think $$ alone is not a great representation for such
a thing. I mean if you go by that many of the institutions we consider
elite actually suck.



>
> Jon



28 Nov 2006 16:27:25
Ben Stewart
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"Jon Enslin" <jenslin@charter.net > wrote in message
news:1164726604.162667.321370@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Kevrob wrote:
> > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > Kevrob wrote:
> > > > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > > > Mannie Popovici wrote:
> > > > > > Is any university where the majority of the student population
lives off
> > > > > > campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that
applies to most
> > > > > > universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter
schools for
> > > > > > instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose
State?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the
school
> > > > > like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school. A
school
> > > > > like UCLA or Minnesota might have a high number of students that
> > > > > commute back to their parent's homes, but many of them live on or
near
> > > > > campus on their own.
> > > > >
> > > > > UW-Milwaukee is trying to become that, but they are running into
> > > > > trouble.
> > > >
> > > > UW-Milwaukee has a huge off-campus student population in its nearby
> > > > neighborhoods, but in many cases those students are from
Southeastern
> > > > Wisconsin. Parking on campus is limited, and near campus it's a
mess,
> > > > so moving out of Mom & Dad''s house and renting a flat or a house
makes
> > > > sense. UWM is trying to add more dorms, but claims that its
lakeside
> > > > campus is "land-locked."
> > >
> > >
> > > I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> > > profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> > > more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty. They have
> > > made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> > > have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Not to mention a better one 3 miles away. :)
>
>
> You can say that again pilgrim. (MU '91)
>
> Jon
>

...And you will have then lied twice.

Ben (UW-Madison '96)

;-)




28 Nov 2006 14:36:02
Jon Enslin
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


mianderson79@yahoo.com wrote:
> Jon Enslin wrote:
> > mianderso...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > > Wisconsin ranks as one of the largest reserach universities in the
> > > > country in terms of dollars granted by NSF, NIH and the like pretty
> > > > much every year.
> > >
> > > wisconsin ranks 27th in NIH money. which is good, but not great.
> > > Hopkins is #1, with a difference in NIH money between the two of about
> > > 300 million dollars.
> >
> > NIH is just part of it. NSF, NEA, NIH, Dod, etc. etc.
>
> yeah but at many schools(those that have a medical school) NIH is the
> largest chunk. The NSF total research budget for fy 2005 was like 5
> billion. Just the top 13 or so medical schools alone topped that. The
> NIH budget in general is usually about 5-6 times what the NSF budget
> is.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I can't speak for the NSF because I don't follow that stuff.
> > >
> > > But trying to tank "elite universities" on things like NIH money as the
> > > leading factor is sketchy. I mean Princeton doesn't have a medical
> > > school, so it's unfair to compare them to a school like UCLA because
> > > there is almost 300 million dollars in terms of revenue there they
> > > can't make a serious grab at. Is UCLA better than Princeton from the
> > > perspective of a student deciding where to go to college? Either way,
> > > UCLA's 300 million from the NIH shouldn't make a difference in the
> > > analysis for that student.
> >
> > I'm not talking about who is decided to go where. I am talking about
> > $$$$.
>
> but back to the comment about being one of the "world's best
> universities". I think $$ alone is not a great representation for such
> a thing. I mean if you go by that many of the institutions we consider
> elite actually suck.


Fine. Madison was ranked #34 in the USN&WR - something like the
seventh best public school. But the reason that schools like UWM want
to be a research type institution is the $$$ that comes from research.

Jon



28 Nov 2006 14:46:20
Kevrob
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Ben Stewart wrote:
> "Jon Enslin" <jenslin@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:1164726604.162667.321370@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Kevrob wrote:
> > > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > > Kevrob wrote:
> > > > > Jon Enslin wrote:

> > > > > >
> > > > > > UW-Milwaukee is trying to become that, but they are running into
> > > > > > trouble.
> > > > >
> > > > > UW-Milwaukee has a huge off-campus student population in its nearby
> > > > > neighborhoods, but in many cases those students are from
> Southeastern
> > > > > Wisconsin. Parking on campus is limited, and near campus it's a
> mess,
> > > > > so moving out of Mom & Dad''s house and renting a flat or a house
> makes
> > > > > sense. UWM is trying to add more dorms, but claims that its
> lakeside
> > > > > campus is "land-locked."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> > > > profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> > > > more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty. They have
> > > > made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> > > > have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not to mention a better one 3 miles away. :)
> >
> >
> > You can say that again pilgrim. (MU '91)
> >
> > Jon
> >
>
> ...And you will have then lied twice.
>
> Ben (UW-Madison '96)
>
> ;-)

Hey, any UW campus, all of them being government schools, is by
definition inferior, by the standards of little ol' freedom-loving me.
:) Separate School and State!

Kevin



28 Nov 2006 14:55:09
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Jon Enslin wrote:
>
>
> Fine. Madison was ranked #34 in the USN&WR - something like the
> seventh best public school. But the reason that schools like UWM want
> to be a research type institution is the $$$ that comes from research.

well sure, but i mean it seems like a fruitless enterprise. I just
don't see it happening to any real extent......

Nothing wrong with going to a non-research smaller state school for
undergrad though(it's not like undergrads, or hell even
grad/professional students are really part of it all anyway from that
perspective. )


>
> Jon



28 Nov 2006 15:16:56
Kevrob
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Jon Enslin wrote:
> mianderson79@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > mianderso...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > Jon Enslin wrote:
> > > > > Wisconsin ranks as one of the largest reserach universities in the
> > > > > country in terms of dollars granted by NSF, NIH and the like pretty
> > > > > much every year.
> > > >
> > > > wisconsin ranks 27th in NIH money. which is good, but not great.
> > > > Hopkins is #1, with a difference in NIH money between the two of about
> > > > 300 million dollars.
> > >
> > > NIH is just part of it. NSF, NEA, NIH, Dod, etc. etc.
> >
> > yeah but at many schools(those that have a medical school) NIH is the
> > largest chunk. The NSF total research budget for fy 2005 was like 5
> > billion. Just the top 13 or so medical schools alone topped that. The
> > NIH budget in general is usually about 5-6 times what the NSF budget
> > is.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I can't speak for the NSF because I don't follow that stuff.
> > > >
> > > > But trying to tank "elite universities" on things like NIH money as the
> > > > leading factor is sketchy. I mean Princeton doesn't have a medical
> > > > school, so it's unfair to compare them to a school like UCLA because
> > > > there is almost 300 million dollars in terms of revenue there they
> > > > can't make a serious grab at. Is UCLA better than Princeton from the
> > > > perspective of a student deciding where to go to college? Either way,
> > > > UCLA's 300 million from the NIH shouldn't make a difference in the
> > > > analysis for that student.
> > >
> > > I'm not talking about who is decided to go where. I am talking about
> > > $$$$.
> >
> > but back to the comment about being one of the "world's best
> > universities". I think $$ alone is not a great representation for such
> > a thing. I mean if you go by that many of the institutions we consider
> > elite actually suck.
>
>

It is probably more useful to think on terms of:

"What is the best school to attend for an undergraduate degree in X, Y
or Z?" and even

"What is the best school to attend for a good liberal arts education if
I don't know what I'd like to major in?"

Factor in other elements of student life, of course, { after
eliminating all schools run by The Leviathan. :) }

Then, as graduation looms, one can ask:

"What is the best school to attend for an advanced degree in X, Y or
Z?"

Some people actually prefer 4-year colleges WITHOUT graduate
departments!

> Fine. Madison was ranked #34 in the USN&WR - something like the
> seventh best public school. But the reason that schools like UWM want
> to be a research type institution is the $$$ that comes from research.
>
> Jon

The "best" rankings are biased towards institutions that are modeled on
the Giant Research Institution model. That's why USN&WR has so many
broken-out lists. It's not to settle the National Champeenship of
Universities, but to provide a consumer's guide for prospective
students and their tuition-paying parents. Frex, I don't see any UW
schools on this list:

National Universities: Best Values

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/bvnatudoc_brief.php

Marquette is there, at #50.

Kevin



28 Nov 2006 18:26:26
P. C. Mueslix
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Mercellus Bohren wrote:

>
> Specifically, here is a list of the top schools in North America.
>
> http://www.aau.edu/aau/aaufact.cfm
>
Does the AAU have something against Catholics?


28 Nov 2006 23:29:24
The Operator
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"Mannie Popovici" <emanuelp10@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:0NqdnY5SOOCO_PHYnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "stephenj" <sjek@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:aZYah.9544$XH4.2342@newsfe14.lga...
>> Jon Enslin wrote:
>>> Mannie Popovici wrote:
>>>
>>>>Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
>>>>campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to
>>>>most
>>>>universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools
>>>>for
>>>>instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
>>> like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school.
>>
>> yes. when i attended USF in the 80s, it's nickname was "the world's
>> largest community college", which reflected the drive-in/drive-out
>> mentality and near-absence of "things happening on and around campus"
>> that characterized it.
>
> I actually attended Texas for undergraduate and then very recently USF for
> graduate school. I didn't see much difference except the campus at USF is
> structured much more around the use of a car as USF is a much newer school
> (1956) outside the city and with a larger campus while Texas has a
> relatively small campus next to downtown Austin. It would be like
> comparing older cities like Boston or NYC to newer cities like Houston or
> LA. The only big difference I saw is the use/need for a car.
>
> USF must have changed a lot since you went, as I found it to be very
> active on campus. There were always people around at the Intramural Fields
> for instance which are conveniently located on campus (unlike at Texas
> where they are in a separate part of town so if you don't have a car you
> wouldn't go). It also seemed there are more out-of-state/international
> students at USF than at Texas where pretty much everybody is from Austin
> or Dallas. Last but not least USF has much more student apartment
> complexes next to campus while at Texas most are located 2-3 exits down
> the freeway (Riverside). So I really don't see what would make USF a
> commuter school while Texas a residential one. I think they are both
> destination universities with a large off-campus student population.
>
Everyone is not from Austin and Dallas - there are people from all over the
state that attend UT. Austin is almost in the exact middle of the state and
gets students from all four corners of the state. At UT, the University
buses and the city buses are free for all students so - cars are not always
needed at UT. It is nice to have if you plan to go home often or are in a
program that requires off campus activity such as student teaching and
educational visits. A lot of the students are in on-campus dorms or
on-campus apartments or in frat/sorority houses (UT has a large greek
population). Jester is the largest dorm in the country.




28 Nov 2006 18:00:36
stephenj
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Mannie Popovici wrote:
> "stephenj" <sjek@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:aZYah.9544$XH4.2342@newsfe14.lga...
>
>>Jon Enslin wrote:
>>
>>>Mannie Popovici wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
>>>>campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to
>>>>most
>>>>universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools
>>>>for
>>>>instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?

> The only
> big difference I saw is the use/need for a car.
>
> USF must have changed a lot since you went, as I found it to be very active
> on campus.

i was actually at USF for quite some time. by the time i left, in the
early 90s, the campus life was better than it had been when i arrived.
glad to hear that this trend continued.



--
"when i visited Aden before collectivization,
all the markets were full of fish product. After
collectivization, the fish immediately disappeared."

- Aleksandr Vassiliev, Soviet KGB official


28 Nov 2006 17:32:54
Cumenda
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


TimV ha scritto:

> "mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:1164745286.056938.263570@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Jon Enslin wrote:
> >>
> >> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
> >> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
> >> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
> >
> > virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
> > trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
> > medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
> > about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
> > of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
> > their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
> > to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
> > all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
> > etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
> > ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
> >
> > I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
> > college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
> > same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
> > much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
> >
> >
> > They have
> >> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
> >> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
> >
> > ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
> > nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
> > other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
> > seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.
> >
>
> Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look at
> how many biotech companies are located in Madison.

Then so is FAU. Just look at how many biotech companies are located
around Boca Raton and West Palm Beach.



29 Nov 2006 01:55:54
Dan S.
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"P. C. Mueslix" <pcmslx@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:DA3bh.1998$m06.1813@newsfe24.lga...
> Mercellus Bohren wrote:
>
>>
>> Specifically, here is a list of the top schools in North America.
>>
>> http://www.aau.edu/aau/aaufact.cfm
>>
> Does the AAU have something against Catholics?

It is a list of member universities of the association. It is not to say
that they are the best or better in some way.

--
Yours,
Dan S.

Reporting to you from South Bend
-The first step to beating an addiction is to admit that you believe in
addictions.




29 Nov 2006 02:09:56
james
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:17:35 -0800, "Mannie Popovici"
<emanuelp10@yahoo.com > wrote:

>+++
>+++"stephenj" <sjek@cox.net> wrote in message
>+++news:aZYah.9544$XH4.2342@newsfe14.lga...
>+++> Jon Enslin wrote:
>+++>> Mannie Popovici wrote:
>+++>>
>+++>>>Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
>+++>>>campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to
>+++>>>most
>+++>>>universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools
>+++>>>for
>+++>>>instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?
>+++>>
>+++>>
>+++>>
>+++>> I think the best way to look at it is if the students treat the school
>+++>> like a big, commuity college or an extention of high school.
>+++>
>+++> yes. when i attended USF in the 80s, it's nickname was "the world's
>+++> largest community college", which reflected the drive-in/drive-out
>+++> mentality and near-absence of "things happening on and around campus" that
>+++> characterized it.
>+++
>+++I actually attended Texas for undergraduate and then very recently USF for
>+++graduate school. I didn't see much difference except the campus at USF is
>+++structured much more around the use of a car as USF is a much newer school
>+++(1956) outside the city and with a larger campus while Texas has a
>+++relatively small campus next to downtown Austin. It would be like comparing
>+++older cities like Boston or NYC to newer cities like Houston or LA. The only
>+++big difference I saw is the use/need for a car.
>+++
>+++USF must have changed a lot since you went, as I found it to be very active
>+++on campus. There were always people around at the Intramural Fields for
>+++instance which are conveniently located on campus (unlike at Texas where
>+++they are in a separate part of town so if you don't have a car you wouldn't
>+++go). It also seemed there are more out-of-state/international students at
>+++USF than at Texas where pretty much everybody is from Austin or Dallas. Last
>+++but not least USF has much more student apartment complexes next to campus
>+++while at Texas most are located 2-3 exits down the freeway (Riverside). So I
>+++really don't see what would make USF a commuter school while Texas a
>+++residential one. I think they are both destination universities with a large
>+++off-campus student population.
>+++
***************

Actually if you look on the maps that depict the city limits the
campaus of USF is actually within the city limits of Tampa. back wh en
the campu sopened they did a bit of annexation. Prior to aobut 1982
time frame a city could annex land with just a mere vote of the
city's governing body. The annexed area had no say so in that. That
changed when the mayor of Sunrise Florida, Lemello started annexing
sections of land in a checkerboard pattern back in the late 70's and
into the early 1980's.

The state of Florida changed the laws to require the annex area to
approve annexation before it can be completed.

james



28 Nov 2006 21:25:17
P. C. Mueslix
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

Dan S. wrote:
> "P. C. Mueslix" <pcmslx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:DA3bh.1998$m06.1813@newsfe24.lga...
>> Mercellus Bohren wrote:
>>
>>> Specifically, here is a list of the top schools in North America.
>>>
>>> http://www.aau.edu/aau/aaufact.cfm
>>>
>> Does the AAU have something against Catholics?
>
> It is a list of member universities of the association. It is not to say
> that they are the best or better in some way.
>

Oh, I know. I'm just curious, with the many popular Catholic
Universities out there, why none of them are signed up with this
association.

P.C.


28 Nov 2006 20:31:27
stephenj
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

james wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:17:35 -0800, "Mannie Popovici"

> Actually if you look on the maps that depict the city limits the
> campaus of USF is actually within the city limits of Tampa. back wh en
> the campu sopened they did a bit of annexation. Prior to aobut 1982
> time frame a city could annex land with just a mere vote of the
> city's governing body. The annexed area had no say so in that.

iirc, USF agreed to be annexed by tampa. as state property, the city
couldn't unilaterally annex it.



--
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature,
the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions.
It is the opium of the people.

- Karl Marx


29 Nov 2006 02:54:47
TimV
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

"mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1164749670.836428.310290@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> TimV wrote:
>> I have no dog in this fight, never even been to the state. But by any
>> means,
>> Wisky is an excellent university. In your primitive language, first tier.
>
> Im sure anyone can get a decent undergrad education there(hell I went
> to VSU and learned everything I needed to so Im not one to pull the
> academic elitism card), but 34th(really 34th-37th accoring to the
> ranking) in one country hardly qualifies as "one of the worlds best".
> Harvard, MIT, Stanford, etc are "one of the worlds best". If you throw
> large public state universities like Wisconsin into the mix, it kinda
> makes the group somewhat less exclusive.
>
> I mean you don't even need to be a great high school student to get
> into wisconsin. It's admissions standards don't appear to be any
> different from most of the other large state magnet universities in a
> state.
>
>


I hope you read past the first sentence in each paragraph in your community
college medical education. Other ranking systems had them much higher. US
News incorporates a lot of factors that do not speak to educational quality
and often penalize public universities due to their broader missions and
need to serve the public of their state.

T



29 Nov 2006 02:56:12
TimV
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

"Cumenda" <simothebest@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164763974.519606.102710@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> TimV ha scritto:
>
>> "mianderson" <clayabc@excite.com> wrote in message
>> news:1164745286.056938.263570@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Jon Enslin wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I know what they are *trying* to do. They are trying to lift the
>> >> profile of the campus by having a larger on-campus population, getting
>> >> more federal research $$$, and a higher quality faculty.
>> >
>> > virtually every college and graduate school and professional school is
>> > trying to do that. For example I have a buddy who is at vanderbilt
>> > medical school and I saw him over thanksgiving. He was telling me
>> > about this big push they have to get into the top 10 by 2010 in terms
>> > of medical schools(right now they are around 12-16 or so). Apparently
>> > their plan is to get more nih dollars, drive their gpa/mcat scores up
>> > to increase that component, and try to encourage their matches to go
>> > all over the country instead of just vandy, duke, unc, uva,
>> > etc......well that's great and all, but hell, all the other schools
>> > ranked 5-11 are trying to do the same thing.
>> >
>> > I even got a letter in the mail a few months ago about how my old
>> > college(Valdosta state!) was trying to build up their image through the
>> > same thing you talked about. And if Valdosta State is doing it, pretty
>> > much everyone(save for the true junior colleges) must be doing it.
>> >
>> >
>> > They have
>> >> made some steps, but it is a LLLLONNNGGG and SLLLOWWW process when you
>> >> have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>> >
>> > ??? That's a pretty loose definition of "best" there jon. I have
>> > nothing against Wisconsin, but I'm not sure how it's different from
>> > other large magnet public state research universities. it's not even
>> > seen as an "elite" public along the lines of Michigan, UVA, Cal.
>> >
>>
>> Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look
>> at
>> how many biotech companies are located in Madison.
>
> Then so is FAU. Just look at how many biotech companies are located
> around Boca Raton and West Palm Beach.
>


I can't think of any premier biotechnology companies in those areas, much
less biotech that spun off from the university itself.

T



28 Nov 2006 19:19:04
The Cheesehusker
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Dan S. wrote:
> "Jon Enslin" <jenslin@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:1164725407.416323.232970@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> > when you
> >have one of the best universities in the world 90 miles away.
>
>
> University of Chicago?


Themistocles, Thucydides,
The Peloponnesian War,
X squared, Y squared,
H2SO4.
Who for? What for?
Who we gonna yell for?
GO, MAROONS!


Logarithm, biorhythm,
Entropy, kinetics,
MPC, GNP, bioenergetics!
Maximize and integrate,
Titrate and Equilibrate--
GO, MAROONS!


Maximize our GNP,
Titrate their solution;
Calculate their MPC,
Crush their revolution!
GO, MAROONS!


Whoopth!

(Class of 86)



28 Nov 2006 19:34:06
Mannie Popovici
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


"TimV" <tvanwagoner_yourknickers_@ou.edu > wrote in message
news:gF6bh.6073$wc5.3144@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
> "Cumenda" <simothebest@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>>> Wisconsin is easily one of the top biotechnology universities. Just look
>>> at
>>> how many biotech companies are located in Madison.
>>
>> Then so is FAU. Just look at how many biotech companies are located
>> around Boca Raton and West Palm Beach.
>>
>
>
> I can't think of any premier biotechnology companies in those areas, much
> less biotech that spun off from the university itself.

You are wrong!

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20060501/boomtowns-large.html
4. West Palm Beach-Boca Raton, Florida
Business and professional services, up 20 percent since 2002, are driving
the region's economy. The area is also a life-sciences hub, home to drug and
medical instrument makers, such as Nabi Biopharmaceuticals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Atlantic_University

FAU is the home of The Center of Excellence in Biomedical and Marine
Biotechnology. Established in 2003, the University's Center of Excellence in
Biomedical and Marine Biotechnology was selected by Florida's Emerging
Technology Commission as one of three centers in the state to receive $10
million in initial funding. Since receiving the startup funding, FAU has
secured an additional $26 million from other sources, including federal and
private research grants. As a result, the center has emerged as an academic
and industry partnership combining expertise in ocean engineering, marine
biotechnology, functional genomics, proteomics, and bioinformatics.
Researchers, scientists, and students at the center are designing
technologies to explore the sea, working to discover new medicines, and
developing new therapeutics to combat agents of bioterrorism.[9]
Florida Atlantic is also the home of The Imaging Technology Center and NASA
Imaging Technology Space Center. Located in the College of Engineering and
Computer Science, the Center specializes in digital imaging research and
development for use in both government and commercial applications in the
areas of medical technology, surveillance, communications, education,
inspection, scientific observation, manufacturing, visual recognition and
identification, and motion picture and digital video. Within the Imaging
Technology Center is one of 12 NASA Research Partnership Centers throughout
the nation which develops dual-use research and development with the
participation of NASA and other related industries in the U.S. The center
occupies two sets of laboratories and administrative offices on Florida
Atlantic's main campus in Boca Raton and at the Fort Lauderdale Tower
campus. The Imaging Technology Center is developing a curriculum for digital
imaging and processing, and is establishing FAU as *the only university in
the nation to offer this technical concentration* -a highly valuable
resource for national defense and the medical and video industries. [10]




29 Nov 2006 14:29:04
james
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:31:27 -0600, stephenj <sjek@cox.net > wrote:

>+++james wrote:
>+++> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:17:35 -0800, "Mannie Popovici"
>+++
>+++> Actually if you look on the maps that depict the city limits the
>+++> campaus of USF is actually within the city limits of Tampa. back wh en
>+++> the campu sopened they did a bit of annexation. Prior to aobut 1982
>+++> time frame a city could annex land with just a mere vote of the
>+++> city's governing body. The annexed area had no say so in that.
>+++
>+++iirc, USF agreed to be annexed by tampa. as state property, the city
>+++couldn't unilaterally annex it.
***********************

That maybe true. Though I thought the land was aquired first by the
city of Tampa along with acess up Nebraska and Fowler to the campus.
Then made available for the state to build. I also remember the
extention of 30th street north from Fletcher to SR 54 now called Bruce
B Downs. Called the road to nowhere. Why spend tax payer money for
that road.


james


29 Nov 2006 09:35:09
stephenj
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

james wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:31:27 -0600, stephenj <sjek@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>>+++james wrote:
>>+++> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:17:35 -0800, "Mannie Popovici"
>>+++
>>+++> Actually if you look on the maps that depict the city limits the
>>+++> campaus of USF is actually within the city limits of Tampa. back wh en
>>+++> the campu sopened they did a bit of annexation. Prior to aobut 1982
>>+++> time frame a city could annex land with just a mere vote of the
>>+++> city's governing body. The annexed area had no say so in that.
>>+++
>>+++iirc, USF agreed to be annexed by tampa. as state property, the city
>>+++couldn't unilaterally annex it.
>
> ***********************
>
> That maybe true.

what makes me think this is that iirc, both tampa and temple terrace
wanted to annex USF ...

> Though I thought the land was aquired first by the
> city of Tampa along with acess up Nebraska and Fowler to the campus.
> Then made available for the state to build. I also remember the
> extention of 30th street north from Fletcher to SR 54 now called Bruce
> B Downs.

yes, that was in 1985.

> Called the road to nowhere. Why spend tax payer money for
> that road.

because new tampa would grow off of it like a weed, of course! :)


--
"when i visited Aden before collectivization,
all the markets were full of fish product. After
collectivization, the fish immediately disappeared."

- Aleksandr Vassiliev, Soviet KGB official


29 Nov 2006 18:13:57
james
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:35:09 -0600, stephenj <sjek@cox.net > wrote:

>+++james wrote:
>+++> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:31:27 -0600, stephenj <sjek@cox.net> wrote:
>+++>
>+++>
>+++>>+++james wrote:
>+++>>+++> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:17:35 -0800, "Mannie Popovici"
>+++>>+++
>+++>>+++> Actually if you look on the maps that depict the city limits the
>+++>>+++> campaus of USF is actually within the city limits of Tampa. back wh en
>+++>>+++> the campu sopened they did a bit of annexation. Prior to aobut 1982
>+++>>+++> time frame a city could annex land with just a mere vote of the
>+++>>+++> city's governing body. The annexed area had no say so in that.
>+++>>+++
>+++>>+++iirc, USF agreed to be annexed by tampa. as state property, the city
>+++>>+++couldn't unilaterally annex it.
>+++>
>+++> ***********************
>+++>
>+++> That maybe true.
>+++
>+++what makes me think this is that iirc, both tampa and temple terrace
>+++wanted to annex USF ...
>+++
******************

Seems to me that I do remember something about where Temple Terrace
was real pissed off due to they felt that Tampa was blocking any
westward expansion hopes they had.

james
>+++> Though I thought the land was aquired first by the
>+++> city of Tampa along with acess up Nebraska and Fowler to the campus.
>+++> Then made available for the state to build. I also remember the
>+++> extention of 30th street north from Fletcher to SR 54 now called Bruce
>+++> B Downs.
>+++
>+++yes, that was in 1985.
**********

The name change may have been in 1985 but I believe the 30th st
extension was built in the late 60's. I was a student at USF in 1970
to 1972 and remember driving that road then.


>+++
>+++> Called the road to nowhere. Why spend tax payer money for
>+++> that road.
>+++
>+++because new tampa would grow off of it like a weed, of course! :)
***********

That did not come untilmuch later. Back in the 60's and 70's that area
of "New Tampa" was cow pastures.

james

james


30 Nov 2006 13:55:44
Jaybyrd
Re: Definition of Commuter Schools


Mannie Popovici wrote:
> Is any university where the majority of the student population lives off
> campus a commuter school by definition? I would think that applies to most
> universities in urban settings. So are Texas and UCLA commuter schools for
> instance? What's the difference with say Houston and San Jose State?

hint: if the only thing that you commute to and from college is a cow
pasture it probably isn't a commuter school.