24 Feb 2004 18:11:01
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

The Virtual Hall of Fame is located at

http://doug.obscurestuff.com/vhof.html

Gaylord Perry gets into the VHOF this year in a fairly easy election.
Holdovers continued to do well, taking spots 2-5 in the balloting,
and with ten more elections to come in the next ten years, still have
a good chance to break through. But dozens of qualified modern players
will join them on the ballots and it's sure to be quite a shootout.

Perry won 314 games in his career and was the first to win the Cy
Young in both leagues. His breakout season was 1966, when reached a
20-2 record on August 20. Constantly hounded by the accusation that
he threw a spitball, he inspired new baseball rules in 1973 to combat
the possibility.

The bulk of his career was the 15-year stretch from 1966 to 1980,
during which he pitched at least 200 innings with an ERA better than
the league average every year. His average season over that span:
a 2.87 ERA over 286 IP, with an 18-13 record. Nice!

Added bonus: he's the best player ever born on my birthday (Sept 15). :-)

The totals for the 1991 election:

Player Pts First-place votes

Gaylord Perry 44 (3)
Ralph Kiner 35 (4)
Dick Allen 24 (1)
Willie Wells 22 (3)
Robin Roberts 22 (1)
Fergie Jenkins 16 (1)
Branch Rickey 12 (1)
Billy Williams 12 (1)
Dan Quisenberry 11 (1)
Joe Cronin 11
Lou Brock 10 (1)
Bobby Grich 10
Brooks Robinson 9 (1)

The next election is the following year, 1992.

Newly retired players who join those above in eligibility for
the election include Dwight Evans, Ken Griffey Sr., Dave Parker,
Garry Templeton, and Rick Reuschel.

The also-rans of the 1991 election and all other players who played
their final year in 1991 or earlier are eligible for the election.
Vote for five players, ranked in order from first to fifth, and email
your ballot to me at masseyd at btv.ibm.com. I'll tabulate votes
and announce a winner once the votes stop coming in. Feel free to
discuss the election here.

Doug
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer
o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | >
| Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 |
/ |
. My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)


24 Feb 2004 15:22:49
Dale J. Stephenson
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

masseyd@valhalla.btv.ibm.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) writes:
[...]
> Player Pts First-place votes
>
> Gaylord Perry 44 (3)
> Ralph Kiner 35 (4)
> Dick Allen 24 (1)
> Willie Wells 22 (3)
> Robin Roberts 22 (1)
> Fergie Jenkins 16 (1)
> Branch Rickey 12 (1)
> Billy Williams 12 (1)
> Dan Quisenberry 11 (1)
> Joe Cronin 11
> Lou Brock 10 (1)
> Bobby Grich 10
> Brooks Robinson 9 (1)
>
> The next election is the following year, 1992.
>
> Newly retired players who join those above in eligibility for
> the election include Dwight Evans, Ken Griffey Sr., Dave Parker,
> Garry Templeton, and Rick Reuschel.
>
Dwight Evans is the best of these, and I don't think he measures up
to Kiner or Williams. So it's really a question of who gets the Perry
vote on the ballot.

I see 18 first place votes, 8 of which are the only first place vote
for that candidate. Pretty spread out.
--
Dale J. Stephenson
dalestephenson@mac.com


24 Feb 2004 20:45:24
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

In article <m2n078ut0m.fsf@localhost.localdomain >,
steph@localhost.localdomain (Dale J. Stephenson) writes:
> masseyd@valhalla.btv.ibm.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) writes:
> [...]
>> Player Pts First-place votes
>>
>> Gaylord Perry 44 (3)
>> Ralph Kiner 35 (4)
>> Dick Allen 24 (1)
>> Willie Wells 22 (3)
>> Robin Roberts 22 (1)
>> Fergie Jenkins 16 (1)
>> Branch Rickey 12 (1)
>> Billy Williams 12 (1)
>> Dan Quisenberry 11 (1)
>> Joe Cronin 11
>> Lou Brock 10 (1)
>> Bobby Grich 10
>> Brooks Robinson 9 (1)
>>
>> The next election is the following year, 1992.
>>
>> Newly retired players who join those above in eligibility for
>> the election include Dwight Evans, Ken Griffey Sr., Dave Parker,
>> Garry Templeton, and Rick Reuschel.
>>
> Dwight Evans is the best of these, and I don't think he measures up
> to Kiner or Williams. So it's really a question of who gets the Perry
> vote on the ballot.
>
> I see 18 first place votes, 8 of which are the only first place vote
> for that candidate. Pretty spread out.

That's been the standard throughout these second-run elections. It
makes some sense -- if you picture the players as inhabiting a bell-shaped
curve, then the best players are at one extreme end. The first run-
through picked out all the very best players and there was much more
unanimity. These players are the closer to the center of the curve --
there are more of them and there's less difference between them:

The x's are unelectable players, the 1's are players elected the first
time through, and the 2's are the players elected the second time through:

xxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx22
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2221
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx22211111
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx222111111111111 11 1 1 1

Doug
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer
o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | >
| Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 |
/ |
. My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)


24 Feb 2004 21:12:02
Cameron Laird
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

In article <c1g43l$hc6$2@news.btv.ibm.com >,
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey <masseyd@valhalla.btv.ibm.com > wrote:
.
.
.
>The totals for the 1991 election:
>
>Player Pts First-place votes
>
>Gaylord Perry 44 (3)
>Ralph Kiner 35 (4)
>Dick Allen 24 (1)
>Willie Wells 22 (3)
>Robin Roberts 22 (1)
>Fergie Jenkins 16 (1)
>Branch Rickey 12 (1)
>Billy Williams 12 (1)
>Dan Quisenberry 11 (1)
>Joe Cronin 11
>Lou Brock 10 (1)
>Bobby Grich 10
>Brooks Robinson 9 (1)
.
.
.
Compare successive Cronin vs. Wells results:
Mischa's getting through to us.
--

Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit.net >
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net


24 Feb 2004 21:51:04
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

In article <103nfh25it51tb1@corp.supernews.com >,
claird@lairds.com (Cameron Laird) writes:
> In article <c1g43l$hc6$2@news.btv.ibm.com>,
> Douglas T. (Doug) Massey <masseyd@valhalla.btv.ibm.com> wrote:
> .
> .
> .
>>The totals for the 1991 election:
>>
>>Player Pts First-place votes
>>
>>Gaylord Perry 44 (3)
>>Ralph Kiner 35 (4)
>>Dick Allen 24 (1)
>>Willie Wells 22 (3)
>>Robin Roberts 22 (1)
>>Fergie Jenkins 16 (1)
>>Branch Rickey 12 (1)
>>Billy Williams 12 (1)
>>Dan Quisenberry 11 (1)
>>Joe Cronin 11
>>Lou Brock 10 (1)
>>Bobby Grich 10
>>Brooks Robinson 9 (1)
> .
> .
> .
> Compare successive Cronin vs. Wells results:
> Mischa's getting through to us.

I think it's partially campaigning and partially the new candidates.

Everyone who voted for Cronin in '83 had him lower on the ballot in '91
(except for one voter). He dropped off six ballots completely. I think
that's because he was compared to eight years' worth of new players
(Perry, Jenkins, Quiz, etc.) and just got pushed off.

Wells wasn't directly comparable to Cronin, Kiner, and Allen and isn't
any more directly comparable to Perry, Jenkins, or Quisenberry. His
kept his two first place votes and picked up a third (that has to be
partially credited to Mischa's descriptions). Two other voters also
switched from Cronin as the higher pick to Wells as the higher pick.
Neither player added much to his resume between 1983 and 1991 :-), so
the politicking does have an effect.

Doug
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer
o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | >
| Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 |
/ |
. My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)


24 Feb 2004 22:32:59
David Craven
Re: VHOF: 1992 ballot

1. Brooks Robinson. None of the arguments have over come the "creepy
eyes" argument. I will continue to vote Brooks number one in the hopes
that the rest of you will come to your senses. I think that the strongest
argument for Robinson is that his peers believed him to be the best
Thirdbaseman of his time, and since another third baseman of his time
(Santo) has been rightly elected to the VHOF, it is a sham and a travesty
that Brooks is NOT in the VHOF.

2. Branch Rickey. I continue to hold out for the inclusion of Branch
Rickey or someone of his ilk (see vote for 4th) in the VHOF because of their
great contribution to the game. That being said, if we had a VHOF -
Pioneer Wing, which elected one person every ten years, Rickey would
immediately drop off the map and off my voting screen.

3. Lou Brock. I agree with the arguments raised by others.

4. Connie Mack. He played 11 seasons in the "major leagues". But beyond
the playing, his behind the field contributions, even if not all that good
for the game, were very significant.

5. Joe Cronin. The Branch Rickey arguments have resulted in my upgrade of
Cronin to the ballot.




24 Feb 2004 22:48:46
Corby Gilmore
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

Douglas T. Doug) Massey (masseyd@valhalla.btv.ibm.com) writes:
>
> Gaylord Perry gets into the VHOF this year in a fairly easy election.
> Holdovers continued to do well, taking spots 2-5 in the balloting,
> and with ten more elections to come in the next ten years, still have
> a good chance to break through. But dozens of qualified modern players
> will join them on the ballots and it's sure to be quite a shootout.
>
> The totals for the 1991 election:
>
> Player Pts First-place votes
>
> Gaylord Perry 44 (3)
> Ralph Kiner 35 (4)
> Dick Allen 24 (1)
> Willie Wells 22 (3)
> Robin Roberts 22 (1)
> Fergie Jenkins 16 (1)
> Branch Rickey 12 (1)
> Billy Williams 12 (1)
> Dan Quisenberry 11 (1)
> Joe Cronin 11
> Lou Brock 10 (1)
> Bobby Grich 10
> Brooks Robinson 9 (1)
>
> The next election is the following year, 1992.

Back to my hopeless causes, I guess. Maybe somebody out there will agree
with me and vote for Addie Joss.

1. Addie Joss
2. Shoeless Joe Jackson
3. Willie Wells
4. Joe Cronin
5. Ralph Kiner

--
Corby Gilmore
corby@ncf.ca


24 Feb 2004 23:44:22
Dvd Avins
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

"Dale J. Stephenson" <steph@localhost.localdomain > wrote in message
news:m2n078ut0m.fsf@localhost.localdomain...
> masseyd@valhalla.btv.ibm.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) writes:

<snip >

> > Newly retired players who join those above in eligibility for
> > the election include Dwight Evans, Ken Griffey Sr., Dave Parker,
> > Garry Templeton, and Rick Reuschel.
> >
> Dwight Evans is the best of these

I don't think it's clear which of Evans and Parker is better. I'd take Evans
because Parker's drug use indirectly cheated the fans of his erstwhile best
effort, because he couldn't be bothered to stay in shape. But if you only
look at what they did on the field, I'd take Parker's better peak and
almost-as-good career value over Evans.




24 Feb 2004 18:56:09
Mischa Gelman
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot



> Neither player added much to his resume between 1983 and 1991 :-), so
> the politicking does have an effect.

I think campaigning helps Negro League players more, as many voters
aren't as familiar with them so they are more likely to be swayed by
evidence presented here. Whereas we all know about Joe Cronin already
and a campaign of two or three posts won't make as big a difference
because our opinion is more settled. It's hard to tell if a big push
does make a significant change - Fred Clarke and Buck Leonard had strong
advocates at one point but neither made it in and neither is getting
many votes any more.

--
The problem that many media organizations face is not to stay in
business, but to stay in journalism. - Harold Evans



25 Feb 2004 09:51:44
Dale J. Stephenson
Re: VHOF: 1992 ballot

"David Craven" <spamguard@nul.dev > writes:

> 1. Brooks Robinson. None of the arguments have over come the "creepy
> eyes" argument. I will continue to vote Brooks number one in the hopes
> that the rest of you will come to your senses. I think that the strongest
> argument for Robinson is that his peers believed him to be the best
> Thirdbaseman of his time, and since another third baseman of his time
> (Santo) has been rightly elected to the VHOF, it is a sham and a travesty
> that Brooks is NOT in the VHOF.
>
It would only be "a sham and a travesty" if his peers were *right*, something
few here believe.

Pie Traynor was considered the best thirdbasemen *ever*, and we have (rightly)
elected a third basemen who played before Traynor. Traynor probably hasn't
even received a single vote. This is neither a sham, nor a travesty.
--
Dale J. Stephenson
dalestephenson@mac.com


25 Feb 2004 09:53:47
Dale J. Stephenson
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) writes:

> Back to my hopeless causes, I guess. Maybe somebody out there will agree
> with me and vote for Addie Joss.
>
> 1. Addie Joss
> 2. Shoeless Joe Jackson

Getting Joss in the VHOF is less hopeless than getting Shoeless Joe
Jackson in. I'd put Lloyd Waner on my ballot before Jackson.
--
Dale J. Stephenson
dalestephenson@mac.com


25 Feb 2004 09:55:59
Dale J. Stephenson
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

"Dvd Avins" <dvdNOavinsSPAM@pobox.com > writes:

> "Dale J. Stephenson" <steph@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
> news:m2n078ut0m.fsf@localhost.localdomain...
> > masseyd@valhalla.btv.ibm.com (Douglas T. (Doug) Massey ) writes:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Newly retired players who join those above in eligibility for
> > > the election include Dwight Evans, Ken Griffey Sr., Dave Parker,
> > > Garry Templeton, and Rick Reuschel.
> > >
> > Dwight Evans is the best of these
>
> I don't think it's clear which of Evans and Parker is better. I'd take Evans
> because Parker's drug use indirectly cheated the fans of his erstwhile best
> effort, because he couldn't be bothered to stay in shape. But if you only
> look at what they did on the field, I'd take Parker's better peak and
> almost-as-good career value over Evans.
>
Key to stats:
Peak -- total offensive wins (OW) for the best five years of the player
years are not necessarily consecutive.
Outside -- total offensive wins outside the best five years
Decade -- decade in which most of the player's peak falls.
Years -- Games played, divided by most common games/team for each year.
@Pos -- percent of games played at this position
FR -- Career fielding runs, as estimated by Total Baseball VII.
-- From '88-'96, fielding runs generated from DA substituted.
Hall -- Hall of Fame status. * indicates HOFer, with VC or OT for committee
Active players listed as Actv
Currently BBWAA eligible listed with highest vote %.
Players not yet eligible listed with year of eligibility.
Players recently retired are listed with year to appear on ballot.
Players on ineligible list are listed as -IE-
Other -- % of games played at other positions. Less than 20% not listed.
OW -- Offensive Wins, (BR/A + SBR) / R/W.
R/W -- Runs per win, calculated by (4 * League Runs) / (1.83 * League Games)
BR/A -- park adjusted linear weight batting runs, calculated by TB VII.
SBR -- stolen base runs. (SB*0.22 - CS*0.35). Not calculated for years
without caught stealing totals.

Peaks for Prominent Rightfielders

Name Peak Decade Outside Years @Pos FR Hall Other
Dave Parker 21.0 70s 4.7 15.4 73% 98 10%
Dwight Evans 19.4 80s 14.4 16.4 80% 73

I think their peaks are closer than their career value, though YMMV.
--
Dale J. Stephenson
dalestephenson@mac.com


25 Feb 2004 15:26:07
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Re: VHOF: 1992 ballot

In article <m265dvus8v.fsf@localhost.localdomain >,
steph@localhost.localdomain (Dale J. Stephenson) writes:
> "David Craven" <spamguard@nul.dev> writes:
>
>> 1. Brooks Robinson. None of the arguments have over come the "creepy
>> eyes" argument. I will continue to vote Brooks number one in the hopes
>> that the rest of you will come to your senses. I think that the strongest
>> argument for Robinson is that his peers believed him to be the best
>> Thirdbaseman of his time, and since another third baseman of his time
>> (Santo) has been rightly elected to the VHOF, it is a sham and a travesty
>> that Brooks is NOT in the VHOF.
>>
> It would only be "a sham and a travesty" if his peers were *right*, something
> few here believe.
>
> Pie Traynor was considered the best thirdbasemen *ever*, and we have (rightly)
> elected a third basemen who played before Traynor. Traynor probably hasn't
> even received a single vote. This is neither a sham, nor a travesty.

Two votes in 1938, then about 55 from 1962-1974, between 3-7 per year.

Traynor and Brooks have a *lot* in common, IMO.

Doug
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer
o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | >
| Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 |
/ |
. My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)


25 Feb 2004 15:29:24
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

In article <m21xojus5g.fsf@localhost.localdomain >,
steph@localhost.localdomain (Dale J. Stephenson) writes:
> ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) writes:
>
>> Back to my hopeless causes, I guess. Maybe somebody out there will agree
>> with me and vote for Addie Joss.
>>
>> 1. Addie Joss
>> 2. Shoeless Joe Jackson
>
> Getting Joss in the VHOF is less hopeless than getting Shoeless Joe
> Jackson in. I'd put Lloyd Waner on my ballot before Jackson.

Corby seems to realize that they're hopeless. I voted for Joss for
a *long* time, but he has to step aside for the modern pitchers now.

Joe Jackson's play is deserving of the VHOF, but there's that black
mark on his record about the 1919 World Series . . . he's never gotten
a vote from me; I think I might delete the web page before I'd put
his picture next to that of Ted Williams(*).

Doug

(*) Not really. I've never fudged an election and will post the winners
as the voters select them, of course.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer
o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | >
| Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 |
/ |
. My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)


26 Feb 2004 00:28:59
Ron Matthews
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

Dale J. Stephenson <steph@localhost.localdomain > wrote:
> ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) writes:

> > Back to my hopeless causes, I guess. Maybe somebody out there
> > will agree with me and vote for Addie Joss.
> >
> > 1. Addie Joss
> > 2. Shoeless Joe Jackson

> Getting Joss in the VHOF is less hopeless than getting Shoeless Joe
> Jackson in. I'd put Lloyd Waner on my ballot before Jackson.

Can you think of any reason why anybody would care who you put on
your ballot? I can't.

The so-called VHOF is a joke. The two chief qualifications seem to
be 1.) voter must have proficiency with a spreadsheet. 2.) voter
opinion cannot be tainted by actually seeing the player in
question play baseball.

cordially, as always,

rm


26 Feb 2004 01:36:07
Clifford Blau
Re: VHOF: 1992 ballot

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:32:59 GMT, "David Craven" <spamguard@nul.dev >
wrote:

>5. Joe Cronin. The Branch Rickey arguments have resulted in my upgrade of
>Cronin to the ballot.
Cronin, as far as I can see, had no merit as either a manager or
executive. You must put a very high value on longevity.

------------
Clifford Blau
http://mysite.verizon.net/brak2.0


26 Feb 2004 02:21:16
Corby Gilmore
Re: VHOF: 1991 results, 1992 ballot

Ron Matthews (whoknows@whocares.org) writes:
> Dale J. Stephenson <steph@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>> ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) writes:
>
>> > Back to my hopeless causes, I guess. Maybe somebody out there
>> > will agree with me and vote for Addie Joss.
>> >
>> > 1. Addie Joss
>> > 2. Shoeless Joe Jackson
>
>> Getting Joss in the VHOF is less hopeless than getting Shoeless Joe
>> Jackson in. I'd put Lloyd Waner on my ballot before Jackson.
>
> Can you think of any reason why anybody would care who you put on
> your ballot? I can't.
>
> The so-called VHOF is a joke. The two chief qualifications seem to
> be 1.) voter must have proficiency with a spreadsheet. 2.) voter
> opinion cannot be tainted by actually seeing the player in
> question play baseball.

1. I have never used a spreadsheet, and wouldnt know how. You are 0 for 1.

2. I have sufficient mathematical and analytical skill to be able to
read, interpret and compare statistics. You pooh-pooh the science of
sabermetrics because you are simply too clueless to understand it.
You are 0 for 2.
Kindly stop posting to this newsgroup unless and until you have some
vague idea about what you are babbling incoherently about.

Cordially, even to Ridiculous Mutants,
--
Corby Gilmore
corby@ncf.ca