07 Mar 2006 16:39:54
Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

It's clear that a lot of people want to not only see Bonds retire, but
want him jailed. I hope so too -- even getting to 715 would probably
require 'roids of the levels alleged in the SF Chronicle writers' book
you've probably been hearing about.

But let's remember: It is almost certainly time for an independent
prosecutor to go after baseball. This means Selig (more HR's = more
fans = more money) and Fehr (more stats = more money = higher salaries)
as well.

I haven't attended a major-league game in a couple years, and it might
be time to seriously consider a hostile takeover of the game from the
drug racket that is almost certainly running it now.

Without steroids, it is known fact there wouldn't be a bigtime MLB.

Mike



07 Mar 2006 17:48:59
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Damn right it's not just Bonds. If we wipe Bonds' records off the books
because he used a banned substance, we can't stop there. We'd have to wipe
all Babe Ruth's records set between 1920 and 1933 off the books, too,
because Babe consumed alcohol, which was illegal at the time.
--
ivan





07 Mar 2006 18:22:58
Wunnuy
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Ivan Weiss wrote:
> Damn right it's not just Bonds. If we wipe Bonds' records off the books
> because he used a banned substance, we can't stop there. We'd have to wipe
> all Babe Ruth's records set between 1920 and 1933 off the books, too,
> because Babe consumed alcohol, which was illegal at the time.


Not that I'm agreeing with the first posters comments, but alcohol
didn't help Ruth hit home runs, steroids did help Bonds, thus altered
games. If we wiped out records simply because athletes use illegal
substances during their playing days then we might as well clean the
books because a HUGE amount of athletes use pot. Way more than you
realize. Of course, it doesn't help them on the field.



08 Mar 2006 02:25:57
Ronald Matthews
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Ivan Weiss <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net > trolled:

> Damn right it's not just Bonds. If we wipe Bonds' records off the
> books because he used a banned substance, we can't stop there.
> We'd have to wipe all Babe Ruth's records set between 1920 and
> 1933 off the books, too, because Babe consumed alcohol, which was
> illegal at the time.

Oh! There's the man! I was worried that you had croaked!

Welcome back. Haven't seen you in a long time. A Jewish sport fan.
Amazing.

cordially, as always,

rm


08 Mar 2006 05:11:40
Von Fourche
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


<starcade@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1141778393.988209.222010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> It's clear that a lot of people want to not only see Bonds retire, but
> want him jailed. I hope so too -- even getting to 715 would probably
> require 'roids of the levels alleged in the SF Chronicle writers' book
> you've probably been hearing about.


Bonds just needs to come out and say he used the juice. He needs to say
he's sorry. He needs to say he tried to hide it to protect his reputation.
Just tell the truth. Bonds during the 90's and 2000's was nothing short of
awesome. Put his face on Mt. Rushmore.




08 Mar 2006 07:05:58
Ronald Matthews
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Von Fourche <Monaco7876@hotmail.com > trolled:

> <starcade@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1141778393.988209.222010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> > It's clear that a lot of people want to not only see Bonds retire, but
> > want him jailed. I hope so too -- even getting to 715 would probably
> > require 'roids of the levels alleged in the SF Chronicle writers' book
> > you've probably been hearing about.


> Bonds just needs to come out and say he used the juice. He needs
> to say he's sorry. He needs to say he tried to hide it to protect
> his reputation. Just tell the truth. Bonds during the 90's and
> 2000's was nothing short of awesome. Put his face on Mt.
> Rushmore.

Oh, no. If you listen to The Nieporent, a lawyer, you would realize
that Bonds doesn't have to own up to anything, because nothing has
been proven. Bonds just has to say "Next question. That one is
stupid."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's over. The Fat Lady has sung. (did you see that picture of
Bonds in a dress?)

cordially, as always,

rm
--
How come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?


08 Mar 2006 08:06:04
Wunnuy
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Von Fourche wrote:
> <starcade@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
> Bonds just needs to come out and say he used the juice. He needs to say
> he's sorry. He needs to say he tried to hide it to protect his reputation.
> Just tell the truth. Bonds during the 90's and 2000's was nothing short of
> awesome. Put his face on Mt. Rushmore.

Actually, this might be somewhat of a good idea. If he came out and
said "I did it like the book said, it was stupid and I'm sorry, but you
can see before I was ever juiced I was a solid player" who knows what
might happen? I think they'd definitely either wipe out or put an
asterick by his records, but because he was a sure-fire HOFer before
the juice, maybe he might be forgiven as far as HOF votiing goes? I
just don't think Bond is smart enough to do this. His ego is the size
of his biceps and he's going to claim racism or something stupid, I'm
betting. The guy will never admit wrong doing.



08 Mar 2006 09:11:53
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

"Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net > wrote in message
news:1141833964.270442.15540@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Actually, this might be somewhat of a good idea. If he came out and
> said "I did it like the book said, it was stupid and I'm sorry, but you
> can see before I was ever juiced I was a solid player" who knows what
> might happen? I think they'd definitely either wipe out or put an
> asterick by his records, but because he was a sure-fire HOFer before
> the juice, maybe he might be forgiven as far as HOF votiing goes? I
> just don't think Bond is smart enough to do this. His ego is the size
> of his biceps and he's going to claim racism or something stupid, I'm
> betting. The guy will never admit wrong doing.

I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and everybody
else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies and not yours,
and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so what the fuck are you going
to do about it?"

But I'm probably out there by myself on that one. So it goes.
--
ivan




08 Mar 2006 12:34:10
David M. Nieporent
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Ivan Weiss wrote:
> "Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net> wrote in message

>>Actually, this might be somewhat of a good idea. If he came out and
>>said "I did it like the book said, it was stupid and I'm sorry, but you
>>can see before I was ever juiced I was a solid player" who knows what
>>might happen? I think they'd definitely either wipe out or put an
>>asterick by his records, but because he was a sure-fire HOFer before
>>the juice, maybe he might be forgiven as far as HOF votiing goes? I
>>just don't think Bond is smart enough to do this. His ego is the size
>>of his biceps and he's going to claim racism or something stupid, I'm
>>betting. The guy will never admit wrong doing.

> I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and everybody
> else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies and not yours,
> and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so what the fuck are you going
> to do about it?"
> But I'm probably out there by myself on that one. So it goes.

Nah, Ivan, you're not alone. I'd enjoy it too. I really wanted someone to
say that to one of the mental midgets running those Congressional hearings
last year.

--
David Marc Nieporent nieporen@alumni.princeton.edu
Jumping To Conclusions: http://www.oobleck.com/tollbooth


08 Mar 2006 09:42:34
Wunnuy
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Ivan Weiss wrote:
> "Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net> wrote in message
> news:1141833964.270442.15540@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and everybody
> else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies and not yours,
> and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so what the fuck are you going
> to do about it?"
>

I'd love to see him say those exact words. Two minutes later he's
brought up on perjury charges, then see him try and back out of his
statement.



08 Mar 2006 09:45:57
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


"Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net > wrote in message
news:1141839754.703508.86470@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ivan Weiss wrote:
>> "Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net> wrote in message
>> news:1141833964.270442.15540@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and
>> everybody
>> else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies and not
>> yours,
>> and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so what the fuck are you
>> going
>> to do about it?"
>>
>
> I'd love to see him say those exact words. Two minutes later he's
> brought up on perjury charges, then see him try and back out of his
> statement.
--
I should clarify that he should have said that at the beginning. At this
point he should say "I tested negative, so fuck all of you."
--
ivan




08 Mar 2006 09:53:35
Wunnuy
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Ivan Weiss wrote:
> "Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net> wrote in message
> I should clarify that he should have said that at the beginning. At this
> point he should say "I tested negative, so fuck all of you."
> --
> ivan

I personally wouldn't mind if he said that either. Saying "fuck you" to
everyone fits right in with Bond's personality; winning over people
everywhere. I'm sure everyone would just stop and that would be the end
of that. (I'm being sarcastic here...) ;]



08 Mar 2006 14:34:55
Josh Rosenbluth
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Ivan Weiss wrote:
>
> I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and everybody
> else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies and not yours,
> and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so what the fuck are you going
> to do about it?"

I don't concur. It's not a victimless crime. Those who do not want
to take the risk of using steroids will have diminished relative
performance and be harmed, possibly even losing their jobs.

Josh Rosenbluth



08 Mar 2006 15:07:46
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Ivan Weiss wrote:
> Damn right it's not just Bonds. If we wipe Bonds' records off the books
> because he used a banned substance, we can't stop there. We'd have to wipe
> all Babe Ruth's records set between 1920 and 1933 off the books, too,
> because Babe consumed alcohol, which was illegal at the time.

You may be sarcastic, or maybe not quite (it was Prohibition!!)...

But you'd probably have to wipe off most meaningful baseball stats of
the last 10 years and the next 4 or 5. And, as I've said before, no
Hall of Fame for any Steroid Era players (clean or dirty) until
determinations can be made as to how to deal with their achievements.

And jail Bud Selig and Donald Fehr as accessories to these crimes.

There's no baseball without steroids now.

Mike



08 Mar 2006 16:29:26
David the Nationals Fan
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


starcade@yahoo.com wrote:

> But you'd probably have to wipe off most meaningful baseball stats of
> the last 10 years and the next 4 or 5. And, as I've said before, no
> Hall of Fame for any Steroid Era players (clean or dirty) until
> determinations can be made as to how to deal with their achievements.

Perhaps the way that the HOF dealt with the players from the
Pre-integration era. Put them in the HOF and assume that the people
visiting the HoF are more than half-wits and put the accomplishments in
perspective. But I guess, as part of the "mommy state" that most
posters seem to now want, we need to restrict minds from thinking for
themselves by "protecting them" from these evil Steroid using players.



08 Mar 2006 16:34:56
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


David the Nationals Fan wrote:

> Perhaps the way that the HOF dealt with the players from the
> Pre-integration era. Put them in the HOF and assume that the people
> visiting the HoF are more than half-wits and put the accomplishments in
> perspective. But I guess, as part of the "mommy state" that most
> posters seem to now want, we need to restrict minds from thinking for
> themselves by "protecting them" from these evil Steroid using players.

You can't put the Steroid Era players in the HoF and expect them to be
held in the same regard as their predecessors -- it cheapens the Hall
for the predecessors and, already, there is talk that induction of even
McGwire might start some UGLY incidents with respect to those in the
Hall.

Mike (Bonds doesn't care -- he's pissed all over his father's legacy
and crapped all over his godfather's...)



08 Mar 2006 16:40:30
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


"Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@att.com > wrote in message
news:1141857294.989153.190640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ivan Weiss wrote:
>>
>> I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and
>> everybody
>> else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies and not
>> yours,
>> and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so what the fuck are you
>> going
>> to do about it?"
>
> I don't concur. It's not a victimless crime. Those who do not want
> to take the risk of using steroids will have diminished relative
> performance and be harmed, possibly even losing their jobs.
--
You'd have to prove that every player who did steroids benefited from them.
You can't. You won't. Everybody's physiology is different. Every human being
on this planet has different tolerances and different thresholds for
different substances. You can't prove there wasn't a placebo effect in there
somewhere.
--
ivan




08 Mar 2006 20:04:08
Josh Rosenbluth
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Ivan Weiss wrote:

> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@att.com> wrote in message
> news:1141857294.989153.190640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Ivan Weiss wrote:
>>
>>>I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and
>>>everybody else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies
>>>bodies and not yours and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so
>>>what the fuck are you going to do about it?"
>>
>>I don't concur. It's not a victimless crime. Those who do not want
>>to take the risk of using steroids will have diminished relative
>>performance and be harmed, possibly even losing their jobs.
> --
> You'd have to prove that every player who did steroids benefited from them.
> You can't. You won't. Everybody's physiology is different. Every human being
> on this planet has different tolerances and different thresholds for
> different substances. You can't prove there wasn't a placebo effect in there
> somewhere.

I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it sufficient
to show steroids help enough people to a large enough degree that a
person who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage?

Josh Rosenbluth


08 Mar 2006 20:20:09
Hank Gillette
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

In article <1141864496.357514.5480@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com >,
starcade@yahoo.com wrote:

> Mike (Bonds doesn't care -- he's pissed all over his father's legacy
> and crapped all over his godfather's...)

What exactly is his father's legacy? Pissing away his talent as an
alcoholic?

--
Hank Gillette

"Our country is being run by people who assume that things will turn out the
way they want. And if someone warns of problems, they shoot the messenger."
-- Paul Krugman



09 Mar 2006 02:25:36
Ronald Matthews
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net > trolled:

> I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it
> sufficient to show steroids help enough people to a large enough
> degree that a person who does not take steroids is at a
> disadvantage?

The person who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage because
he is not cheating, unless he is cheating in some other way.

cordially, as always,

rm


09 Mar 2006 02:43:48
Gerry Myerson
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

In article <9bqdnSIx2NPn5JLZRVn-gA@centurytel.net >,
"Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net > wrote:

> You'd have to prove that every player who did steroids benefited from them.
> You can't. You won't. Everybody's physiology is different. Every human being
> on this planet has different tolerances and different thresholds for
> different substances. You can't prove there wasn't a placebo effect in there
> somewhere.

I think there should be lifetime banishment for players
who improve their performance through placebo abuse.
Think of the children.

--
Gerry Myerson (gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai) (i - > u for email)


09 Mar 2006 02:55:17
Ronald Matthews
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Ivan Weiss <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net > trolled:

> You'd have to prove that every player who did steroids benefited
> from them. You can't. You won't. Everybody's physiology is
> different. Every human being on this planet has different
> tolerances and different thresholds for different substances. You
> can't prove there wasn't a placebo effect in there somewhere.

I guess they finally got computers in the old folks home, eh, Ivan?
Judging by the number of posts we are getting from you, it would
seem that the lineup to use them is rather short.

cordially, as always,

rm


08 Mar 2006 23:46:17
Don McC
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

"Von Fourche" <Monaco7876@hotmail.com > opined:
>
> Bonds just needs to come out and say he used the juice. He needs to say
> he's sorry. He needs to say he tried to hide it to protect his reputation.
> Just tell the truth.

A hangout? A modified, limited hangout.
Worked wonders for Charlie Hustle and Tricky Dick. ;-)

--
Don

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are much more pliable.
~ Mark Twain





09 Mar 2006 01:16:03
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


"Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net > wrote in message
news:5f-dnY0i4MyU4pLZRVn-qg@comcast.com...
> Ivan Weiss wrote:
>
>> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@att.com> wrote in message
>> news:1141857294.989153.190640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Ivan Weiss wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and
>>>>everybody else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies
>>>>bodies and not yours and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so
>>>>what the fuck are you going to do about it?"
>>>
>>>I don't concur. It's not a victimless crime. Those who do not want
>>>to take the risk of using steroids will have diminished relative
>>>performance and be harmed, possibly even losing their jobs.
>> --
>> You'd have to prove that every player who did steroids benefited from
>> them. You can't. You won't. Everybody's physiology is different. Every
>> human being on this planet has different tolerances and different
>> thresholds for different substances. You can't prove there wasn't a
>> placebo effect in there somewhere.
>
> I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it sufficient to
> show steroids help enough people to a large enough degree that a person
> who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage?
--
No.
--
ivan




09 Mar 2006 09:18:54
Bob Roman
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

"Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net > wrote...
> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote...
>> I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it sufficient
>> to show steroids help enough people to a large enough degree that a
>> person who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage?
> --
> No.

Of course it does. Baseball performance is probabilistic, so a
probabilistic argument is absolutely on target.

--
Bob Roman




09 Mar 2006 07:51:16
Josh Rosenbluth
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Ivan Weiss wrote:
> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:5f-dnY0i4MyU4pLZRVn-qg@comcast.com...
> > Ivan Weiss wrote:
> >
> >> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@att.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1141857294.989153.190640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>>Ivan Weiss wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and
> >>>>everybody else does it, and it's our business what we put in our bodies
> >>>>bodies and not yours and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so
> >>>>what the fuck are you going to do about it?"
> >>>
> >>>I don't concur. It's not a victimless crime. Those who do not want
> >>>to take the risk of using steroids will have diminished relative
> >>>performance and be harmed, possibly even losing their jobs.
> >> --
> >> You'd have to prove that every player who did steroids benefited from
> >> them. You can't. You won't. Everybody's physiology is different. Every
> >> human being on this planet has different tolerances and different
> >> thresholds for different substances. You can't prove there wasn't a
> >> placebo effect in there somewhere.
> >
> > I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it sufficient to
> > show steroids help enough people to a large enough degree that a person
> > who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage?
> --
> No.

Is it your claim that so long as there is one person who is not helped
by steroids, then players are not coerced into taking them (because of
the possibility of lower relative performance). If so, I think that
is a weak claim.

Josh Rosenbluth



09 Mar 2006 08:16:43
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


"Bob Roman" <robertjroman@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1210eagl27bq2f4@news.supernews.com...
> "Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net> wrote...
>> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote...
>>> I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it sufficient
>>> to show steroids help enough people to a large enough degree that a
>>> person who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage?
>> --
>> No.
>
> Of course it does. Baseball performance is probabilistic, so a
> probabilistic argument is absolutely on target.
--
My threshold for proof is different than yours. That does not make you a bad
guy.
--
ivan




09 Mar 2006 08:17:58
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

"Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@att.com > wrote in message
news:1141919476.617671.121300@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ivan Weiss wrote:
>> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:5f-dnY0i4MyU4pLZRVn-qg@comcast.com...
>> > Ivan Weiss wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@att.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1141857294.989153.190640@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >>
>> >>>Ivan Weiss wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>I'd really prefer it if he came out and said "Yeah, I did it, and
>> >>>>everybody else does it, and it's our business what we put in our
>> >>>>bodies
>> >>>>bodies and not yours and not Bud Selig's, and not anyone else's, so
>> >>>>what the fuck are you going to do about it?"
>> >>>
>> >>>I don't concur. It's not a victimless crime. Those who do not want
>> >>>to take the risk of using steroids will have diminished relative
>> >>>performance and be harmed, possibly even losing their jobs.
>> >> --
>> >> You'd have to prove that every player who did steroids benefited from
>> >> them. You can't. You won't. Everybody's physiology is different. Every
>> >> human being on this planet has different tolerances and different
>> >> thresholds for different substances. You can't prove there wasn't a
>> >> placebo effect in there somewhere.
>> >
>> > I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it sufficient
>> > to
>> > show steroids help enough people to a large enough degree that a person
>> > who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage?
>> --
>> No.
>
> Is it your claim that so long as there is one person who is not helped
> by steroids, then players are not coerced into taking them (because of
> the possibility of lower relative performance). If so, I think that
> is a weak claim.
--
So you think so. Fine. My threshold for proof is different than yours. That
does not make you a bad guy.
--
ivan




09 Mar 2006 16:15:56
Ronald Matthews
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

Bob Roman <robertjroman@hotmail.com > trolled:
> "Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net> wrote...
> > "Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote...
> >> I agree steroids likely don't help everybody. But, isn't it sufficient
> >> to show steroids help enough people to a large enough degree that a
> >> person who does not take steroids is at a disadvantage?
> > --
> > No.

> Of course it does. Baseball performance is probabilistic, so a
> probabilistic argument is absolutely on target.

Nope. There is no such thing as "luck" and, as such, there is no
such thing as probabilistic behaviour. Stat fans might interpret
events as being probabilistic, but this hardly means that those
events really are subject to chance.

BTW: how come so many stat fans, and pseudo stat fans, are Jewish?

cordially, as always,

rm


09 Mar 2006 15:55:06
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Wunnuy wrote:

> Not that I'm agreeing with the first posters comments, but alcohol
> didn't help Ruth hit home runs, steroids did help Bonds, thus altered
> games. If we wiped out records simply because athletes use illegal
> substances during their playing days then we might as well clean the
> books because a HUGE amount of athletes use pot. Way more than you
> realize. Of course, it doesn't help them on the field.

That argument may no longer be relevant. There may be such a huge
number of steroid users in the game that the game has been forever
compromised.

This is worse than Pete Rose, worse than the Black Sox.

Mike



09 Mar 2006 15:56:09
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


Von Fourche wrote:
> <starcade@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1141778393.988209.222010@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> > It's clear that a lot of people want to not only see Bonds retire, but
> > want him jailed. I hope so too -- even getting to 715 would probably
> > require 'roids of the levels alleged in the SF Chronicle writers' book
> > you've probably been hearing about.
>
>
> Bonds just needs to come out and say he used the juice. He needs to say
> he's sorry. He needs to say he tried to hide it to protect his reputation.
> Just tell the truth. Bonds during the 90's and 2000's was nothing short of
> awesome. Put his face on Mt. Rushmore.

He goes to prison for perjury if he does that.

Mike (And probably tax evasion and maybe money laundering too.)



09 Mar 2006 20:25:52
Bob Roman
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

"Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net > wrote...
> "Bob Roman" <robertjroman@hotmail.com> wrote...
>> Of course it does. Baseball performance is probabilistic, so a
>> probabilistic argument is absolutely on target.
> --
> My threshold for proof is different than yours. That does not make you a
> bad guy.

I'm glad to hear your fallacies do not tarnish me.

--
Bob Roman




09 Mar 2006 18:32:34
Ivan Weiss
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...


"Bob Roman" <robertjroman@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1211ld2b1idli1b@news.supernews.com...
> "Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net> wrote...
>> "Bob Roman" <robertjroman@hotmail.com> wrote...
>>> Of course it does. Baseball performance is probabilistic, so a
>>> probabilistic argument is absolutely on target.
>> --
>> My threshold for proof is different than yours. That does not make you a
>> bad guy.
>
> I'm glad to hear your fallacies do not tarnish me.
--
I have stopped beating your wife, too.:-)
--
ivan




10 Mar 2006 03:57:16
Gerry Myerson
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

In article <f-Kdnb8t_t_-eI3ZRVn-qA@centurytel.net >,
"Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net > wrote:

> "Bob Roman" <robertjroman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1211ld2b1idli1b@news.supernews.com...
> > "Ivan Weiss" <ivan.weiss@centurytel.net> wrote...
> >> "Bob Roman" <robertjroman@hotmail.com> wrote...
> >>> Of course it does. Baseball performance is probabilistic, so a
> >>> probabilistic argument is absolutely on target.
> >> --
> >> My threshold for proof is different than yours. That does not make you a
> >> bad guy.
> >
> > I'm glad to hear your fallacies do not tarnish me.
> --
> I have stopped beating your wife, too.:-)

Ooh, can I stop beating your wife?

--
Gerry Myerson (gerry@maths.mq.edi.ai) (i - > u for email)


11 Mar 2006 05:17:45
Roger Nullset
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

> there is no such thing as probabilistic behaviour.

So a guy with a .250 batting average gets a 1/4 of a hit each time he's
up?



22 May 2006 14:53:36
Gabriel Rapture
Re: Just remember, it's not just Bonds...

On 7 Mar 2006 18:22:58 -0800, "Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net > wrote:

>
>Ivan Weiss wrote:
>> Damn right it's not just Bonds. If we wipe Bonds' records off the books
>> because he used a banned substance, we can't stop there. We'd have to wipe
>> all Babe Ruth's records set between 1920 and 1933 off the books, too,
>> because Babe consumed alcohol, which was illegal at the time.
>
>
>Not that I'm agreeing with the first posters comments, but alcohol
>didn't help Ruth hit home runs, steroids did help Bonds, thus altered
>games. If we wiped out records simply because athletes use illegal
>substances during their playing days then we might as well clean the
>books because a HUGE amount of athletes use pot. Way more than you
>realize. Of course, it doesn't help them on the field.

Now for some hard truths about you whining baseball Bonds hater sail
rabbit fanatics and other losers:

Here's the real deal that Whites never consider:
Commentary: If Bonds’ Record-Breaking Deserves an Asterisk, Don’t All
Baseball Records Pre-1947?
Date: Thursday, May 4, 2006
By: Big Daddy Gregory Kane,

By the time you read this, San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds
will have either broken Babe Ruth’s home run record.

Or he may have broken Hank Arron's

But at 713 home runs, Bonds will definitely tie, and then break, the
record sometime this season. The debate raging now is whether there
should be an asterisk next to his name because of his alleged steroid
use. The controversy even has some nasty racial overtones, since
several news reports have indicated that Bonds is getting as much hate
mail calling him the “N” word as Hank Aaron got when he first broke
Ruth’s record in 1974.

The asterisk debate isn’t in and of itself racial. For years, Roger
Maris, who broke Ruth’s single-season home run record in 1961, had an
asterisk next to his name to indicate that he hit his 61 homers in 162
games, whereas Ruth hit his 60 in 154. Both Maris and Ruth were white.

But I’ve maintained for years that there is a racial tinge to all this
asterisk business. If Bonds’ record should have an asterisk because of
his alleged steroid use, and Maris’ had one because of the number of
games, shouldn’t ALL major league baseball records before 1947 have an
asterisk?

You all know the significance of the year 1947. That’s when Jackie
Robinson signed with the Brooklyn Dodgers and broke the 20th-century
color line in major league baseball. Before 1947, Robinson played in
the Negro Leagues. And more than one observer has pointed out that, in
1947, Robinson was far from the best player in the Negro Leagues.

One of the best was legendary pitcher Satchel Paige. Lesser known than
Paige was Leon Day, whom some observers say was better than Paige (Day
and Paige pitched against each other five times. Day won four of those
games.). Both men pitched in the early 1940s. Day was in his prime;
Paige was slightly past his.

Here’s a question I’ve been posing for years. I still haven’t received
a good answer.

Suppose there was no color line in baseball in 1941 and Paige and Day,
two of the greatest pitchers who ever lived, were pitching in the
American League. Would New York Yankees slugger Joe DiMaggio have been
able to hit in 56 straight games if he’d had to face either Paige or
Day -- or both -- during that stretch?

We may never know. What we do know is that DiMaggio didn’t face the
best pitchers of his time. He faced the best WHITE pitchers of his
time. Through no fault of his own, the record of this truly great
baseball player is tainted. It should have an asterisk. The color line
in baseball wasn’t just unfair to great black players like Paige and
Day and Cool Papa Bell and Josh Gibson; it was unfair to great white
players.

Speaking of Gibson, according to a San Francisco Chronicle story by
Ron Kroichick, Bonds said in 2003 that it’s Gibson, not himself, who
really holds the home run record for a single season. Bonds hit 73 in
2001.

Gibson hit 84 in 1936. His lifetime total is 962.

Perhaps not surprisingly, Kroichick tried to diss Gibson’s achievement
in his story. Gibson’s homers, Kroichick wrote, came in some
exhibition games and against semi-pro teams (As if a “major league”
that excluded an entire race was not somehow “semi-pro” itself.).

Kroichick wasn’t even impressed that Gibson hit .400 in games he
played against white “major leaguers.” Those games, Kroichick wrote
“were skewed ... because the Negro Leagues players wanted to prove
their ability and the major leaguers mostly sought to avoid injury.”

Sure. And Joe Louis didn’t knock out a string of top-notch white
contenders in the early 1930s. Those guys just used their faces to
beat up Joe’s fists.

Kroichick’s disclaimer about Gibson’s records can easily be turned on
its head. If it’s permissible to question Gibson’s home run records --
career and single season -- based on the quality of his competition,
why ISN’T it fair to question DiMaggio’s?

And Ruth’s? And Ty Cobbs’? And -- well, put in the name of any white
“major leaguer” who played before 1947, and you’ll get an idea of
where I’m going with this. Gibson, Paige, Day and Bell may not have
faced the best competition. But neither did DiMaggio, Ruth, Cobb and
all those white guys.

If we’re going to start this business of plunking asterisks down next
to records, let's be sure to plunk them in all the right places.

On top of that, maybe he tired of being nice to people that he knows
deep deep down hate the fact that he breathes the same air that they
do. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm

Satan has many rooms prepared for you illogical, mis-programmed brain
damaged multitudes.

Remember, your minds is a TERRIBLE thing to waste!
Free your mind! And your arse will follow!