27 Dec 2005 18:23:09
JPM III
Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1883

Here's a list of eligible players:

Rick Aguilera: 86-81, 3.57 ERA, 318 saves

Albert Belle: .295 Avg., 381 HR, 1,239 RBI

Bert Blyleven: 287-250, 3.31 ERA, 3,701 K

Will Clark: .303 Avg., 284 HR, 1,205 RBI

Dave Concepcion: .267 Avg., 2,326 H, 101 HR, 321 SB, 5 Gold Gloves

Andre Dawson: .279 Avg., 2,774 H, 438 HR, 1,591 RBI, 314 SB, 8 Gold Gloves,
1 MVP

Gary DiSarcina: .258 Avg., 966 H, 28 HR, 355 RBI

Alex Fernandez: 107-87, 3.74 ERA, 1,252 K

Gary Gaetti: .255 Avg., 2,280 H, 360 HR, 1,341 RBI, 4 Gold Gloves

Steve Garvey: .294 Avg., 2,599 H, 272 HR, 1,308 RBI, 4 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP

Dwight Gooden: 194-112, 3.51 ERA, 2,293 K, 1 ROY, 1 Cy Young

Rich Gossage: 124-107, 3.01 ERA, 310 saves, 1,502 K

Ozzie Guillen: .264 Avg., 1,764 H, 169 SB, 1 Gold Glove, 1 ROY

Orel Hershiser: 204-150, 3.48 ERA, 2,014 K, 1 Cy Young

Gregg Jefferies: .289 Avg., 1,593 H, 126 HR, 196 SB

Tommy John: 288-231, 3.34 ERA, 2,245 K, 4,710.1 IP

Doug Jones: 69-79, 3.30 ERA, 303 saves

Don Mattingly: .307 Avg., 2,153 H, 222 HR, 1,099 RBI, 9 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP

Willie McGee: .295 Avg., 2,254 H, 856 RBI, 352 SB, 3 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP

Hal Morris: .304 Avg., 1,216 H, 76 HR, 513 RBI

Jack Morris: 254-186, 3.90 ERA, 2,478 K, 3,824 IP, three 20-win seasons

Dale Murphy: .265 Avg. 2,111 H, 398 HR, 1,266 RBI, 161 SB, 5 Gold Gloves, 2
MVPs

Dave Parker: .290 Avg., 2,712 H, 339 HR, 1,493 RBI, 154 SB, 3 Gold Gloves, 1
MVP

Jim Rice: .298 Avg., 2,452 H, 382 HR, 1,451 RBI, 1 MVP

Lee Smith: 71-92, 3.03 ERA, 478 saves

Bruce Sutter: 68-71, 2.83 ERA, 300 saves

Alan Trammell: .285 Avg., 2,365 H, 185 HR, 1,003 RBI, 236 SB, 4 Gold Gloves

Walt Weiss: .258 Avg., 1,207 H, 623 R, 96 SB, 1 ROY

John Wetteland: 48-45, 2.93 ERA, 330 saves



My picks:
Blyleven, Dawson, John, Murphy, Rice, and Smith

Belle, Gaetti, Garvey, Gooden, Mattingly, and Parker are the next tier that
would deserve it if they had played longer or just had a few more really
good years. I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of them in, but not before those
top six.




27 Dec 2005 15:33:27
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


JPM III wrote:
> http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1883
>>
> Belle, Gaetti, Garvey, Gooden, Mattingly, and Parker are the next tier that
> would deserve it if they had played longer or just had a few more really
> good years. I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of them in, but not before those
> top six.

You can make a case for Belle, but if any of those others get in, the
HOF will have officially turned to shit. Hall of Good, yeah, but Hall
of Fame, no.



28 Dec 2005 01:34:51
Mark Vaughan
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

"JPM III" <jpmccord@hotmail.com > wrote in
news:a1ksf.221199$0l5.6470@dukeread06:

> http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1883
>
[ ... ]
>
> My picks:
> Blyleven, Dawson, John, Murphy, Rice, and Smith

all in all, it's not an outstanding group...and with the exception of
Blyleven, nobody eligible this time around is, IMHO, an obvious choice.
(#24 all-time in gray ink seems like a shoo-in to me...though clearly
my opinion is not shared by the actual voters :^)

I see Rice as a marginally stronger candidate than Murphy or Dawson,
and, assuming I actually had a vote, I might be tempted to vote for him
...but it wouldn't be a travesty if Rice, Murphy, and Dawson were all
passed over permanently...while they all rightfully belong in the 'hall
of the very good', it's not at all clear to me that they belong in the
hall of fame

finally, I haven't yet convinced myself that pure relievers deserve HOF
consideration...otherwise, Smith & Sutter would be worth considering


> Belle, Gaetti, Garvey, Gooden, Mattingly, and Parker are the next
> tier that would deserve it if they had played longer or just had a
> few more really good years. I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of them
> in, but not before those top six.



--

Mark Vaughan


27 Dec 2005 19:27:19
jdunlop
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

I'd vote for Gossage, Sutter, Blyleven, John and Trammell. I can't see
voting for Lee Smith ahead of either Goose or Sutter. Yes, more saves,
but a different era (he was, no pun intended, the king of the
"automatic" one inning save.) I don't think Rice/Dawson/Murphy were
quite good enough (not that I wouldn't mind them on my team) compared
to other outfielders in and out of the Hall, but I believe Trammell did
(certainly ahead of Concepcion) as did Whitaker, but Sweet Lou didn't
make the cut a few years back.



27 Dec 2005 19:29:11
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Mark Vaughan wrote:
>> > My picks:
> > Blyleven, Dawson, John, Murphy, Rice, and Smith
>
> all in all, it's not an outstanding group...and with the exception of
> Blyleven, nobody eligible this time around is, IMHO, an obvious choice.
> (#24 all-time in gray ink seems like a shoo-in to me...though clearly
> my opinion is not shared by the actual voters :^)
>

I have no problem putting Blyeleven and John in, but if you put those
two in, how could you possibly not put in Kaat?



27 Dec 2005 19:53:12
zamdrist@gmail.com
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Generally speaking I go by the 3000 hits, 300 wins & 500 homerun
measure. In which case none of them would be voted in.

Out of that crowd I would have to pick Andre Dawson though, largely for
the blend of speed and power that the other sluggers didn't have in
this group.



27 Dec 2005 23:51:21
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Blyleven and Gossage



28 Dec 2005 05:35:53
Michael O'Connor
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

It will be Rice, Sutter and Gossage, although I would love to see
Blyleven inducted too.



28 Dec 2005 06:40:53
jdunlop
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Wunnuy wrote:
> Mark Vaughan wrote:
> >> > My picks:
> > > Blyleven, Dawson, John, Murphy, Rice, and Smith
> >
> > all in all, it's not an outstanding group...and with the exception of
> > Blyleven, nobody eligible this time around is, IMHO, an obvious choice.
> > (#24 all-time in gray ink seems like a shoo-in to me...though clearly
> > my opinion is not shared by the actual voters :^)
> >
>
> I have no problem putting Blyeleven and John in, but if you put those
> two in, how could you possibly not put in Kaat?

I'd vote for Kaat too, but he's not on the ballot. His last year was
'83, wasn't it? So he's moved off the ballot, ready to be voted in by
the Vet's committee, if and when they ever decide to elect somebody
(like Santo, maybe?)



28 Dec 2005 15:41:42
Mark Vaughan
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

"Wunnuy" <wunnuy@netzero.net > wrote in
news:1135740551.169591.229650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> Mark Vaughan wrote:
>>> > My picks:
>> > Blyleven, Dawson, John, Murphy, Rice, and Smith
>>
>> all in all, it's not an outstanding group...and with the exception
>> of Blyleven, nobody eligible this time around is, IMHO, an obvious
>> choice. (#24 all-time in gray ink seems like a shoo-in to
>> me...though clearly my opinion is not shared by the actual voters
>> :^)
>>
>
> I have no problem putting Blyeleven and John in, but if you put
> those two in, how could you possibly not put in Kaat?
>

I see Blyleven as clearly better than John, and John as slightly
better than Kaat; e.g., look at ERA+ and gray ink...Blyleven's #1,
John's #2, and Kaat's #3 in both categories. and I draw the line
between the HOF and the HOVG between Blyleven and John.

but if John goes in, then it'd be hard to argue against inducting
Kaat too...but IMHO, John falls just short of the necessary
qualifications (unless you give him extra points for pioneering
the 'Tommy John surgery'...which I don't, but others might)


--

Mark Vaughan


28 Dec 2005 15:42:11
Mark Vaughan
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

SavoyBG@aol.com wrote in news:1135756281.701379.162880
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Blyleven and Gossage
>

why Gossage?

--

Mark Vaughan


28 Dec 2005 08:10:25
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Mark Vaughan wrote:
> but if John goes in, then it'd be hard to argue against inducting
> Kaat too...but IMHO, John falls just short of the necessary
> qualifications (unless you give him extra points for pioneering
> the 'Tommy John surgery'...which I don't, but others might)


Actually, Tommy John didn't pioneer the Tommy John surgery. He was just
the first one it was used on and worked successfully. He even said a
lot of younger players actually think he invented the surgery and
mention it to him.



28 Dec 2005 12:42:36
Hank Gillette
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

In article <1135741992.676281.317370@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com >,
"zamdrist@gmail.com" <zamdrist@gmail.com > wrote:

> Generally speaking I go by the 3000 hits, 300 wins & 500 homerun
> measure. In which case none of them would be voted in.

It's a pretty sad Hall of Fame that doesn't have room for Sandy Koufax,
Jim Palmer, Lou Gehrig, Bob Feller, Dan Brouthers, Jackie Robinson, Carl
Hubbel, Rogers Hornsby, and Joe DiMaggio.

--
Hank Gillette


Like people who see intricate designs in random clouds, there are still those
who claim to see coherent thoughts emanating from the mind of George W. Bush.


28 Dec 2005 11:09:44
zamdrist@gmail.com
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Hence: "Genereally speaking..."



28 Dec 2005 11:15:47
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

I'd vote Yea to: Blyleven, Gossage, and Dawson.

Gossage - a dominant feared reliever. Not one of today's come in in the
top of the 9th with a 3 run lead kind of saves. Gossage threw about 1
2/3 per appearance during his years as a closer.

Blyleven - 5th all time in Ks. A famous curveball. 287 Wins. ERA + of
118.

Dawson - the Hawk. 8 time All Star. 8 Gold Gloves. 4 Silver Slugger
Awards. 438 Bombs. 314 Steals. 4787 Total Bases - 24th all time (more
than Yount, Tony Perez, Mantle, CLemente, Schmidt, Eddie Matthews...).
1591 Ribbies. Career OPS+ of 119.



28 Dec 2005 11:26:28
Laura Bush murdered her boy fr
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

I don't think any of them belong but garvey is the best of the lot. His
offensive stats are very good for an LAD in the 70s and 80s. I used to
think he was a bad 1B but bill james has convinced me otherwise. Great
PS player.



28 Dec 2005 12:05:49
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Excellent picks, Comish...

I'm surprised to see so many people in this group vote for Blyleven.
Who knows, maybe he has a chance.



29 Dec 2005 00:44:14
Paul
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

On 28 Dec 2005 11:26:28 -0800, "Laura Bush murdered her boy friend"
<xeton2001@yahoo.com > wrote:

>I don't think any of them belong but garvey is the best of the lot. His
>offensive stats are very good for an LAD in the 70s and 80s. I used to
>think he was a bad 1B but bill james has convinced me otherwise. Great
>PS player.

With the above comment, you are now officially insane.


29 Dec 2005 07:28:26
powrwrap
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Bert Blyleven. That's it. No one else comes close.



29 Dec 2005 19:33:06
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


powrwrap wrote:


> Bert Blyleven. That's it. No one else comes close.

Well considering four current eligible players finished above him in
the 2005 voting (six overall) and two finished behind him within seven
percentage points, I'd say there are a few who are close.



30 Dec 2005 07:09:27
powrwrap
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

> Wunnuy wrote:


> >powrwrap wrote:
> > Bert Blyleven. That's it. No one else comes close.

..
> Well considering four current eligible players finished above him in
> the 2005 voting (six overall) and two finished behind him within seven
> percentage points, I'd say there are a few who are close.


<Looks at thread title >

Bert Blyleven.



30 Dec 2005 08:47:58
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


powrwrap wrote:
>> > >powrwrap wrote:
> > > Bert Blyleven. That's it. No one else comes close.
> ..
> > Well considering four current eligible players finished above him in
> > the 2005 voting (six overall) and two finished behind him within seven
> > percentage points, I'd say there are a few who are close.
>
>
> <Looks at thread title>
>
> Bert Blyleven.

You get no argument from me about Blyleven, you just stated that no one
came close and there were others who came close. I hope Bly gets in (I
don't think he will, at least not this year)



30 Dec 2005 08:54:07
powrwrap
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


> Wunnuy wrote:

> You get no argument from me about Blyleven, you just stated that no one
> came close and there were others who came close. I hope Bly gets in (I
> don't think he will, at least not this year)

Look at the title of this thread, "Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets
*YOUR* Vote?" Get it? Who do YOU think should get in? Not, "Hall of
Fame Class of 2006: Who Has Been Voted Close by Other People in Past
Years."

Bert Blyleven. I don't consider anyone else worthy.



30 Dec 2005 08:59:39
Laura Bush murdered her boy fr
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Paul wrote:
> On 28 Dec 2005 11:26:28 -0800, "Laura Bush murdered her boy friend"
> <xeton2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't think any of them belong but garvey is the best of the lot. His
> >offensive stats are very good for an LAD in the 70s and 80s. I used to
> >think he was a bad 1B but bill james has convinced me otherwise. Great
> >PS player.
>
> With the above comment, you are now officially insane.

HAHAHA. Brilliant "argument".



30 Dec 2005 12:54:30
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Laura Bush murdered her boy friend wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> > On 28 Dec 2005 11:26:28 -0800, "Laura Bush murdered her boy friend"
> > <xeton2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I don't think any of them belong but garvey is the best of the lot. His
> > >offensive stats are very good for an LAD in the 70s and 80s. I used to
> > >think he was a bad 1B but bill james has convinced me otherwise. Great
> > >PS player.
> >
> > With the above comment, you are now officially insane.
>
> HAHAHA. Brilliant "argument".

LOL! When are you going to provide a brilliant "argument?" Thanks for
addressing the issue of your sanity, BTW. Going to spend the new year's
with your buddies at the bath house, el faggio?



01 Jan 2006 02:20:59
JPM III
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

"jdunlop" <jdunlop@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1135740439.708656.148180@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'd vote for Gossage, Sutter, Blyleven, John and Trammell. I can't see
> voting for Lee Smith ahead of either Goose or Sutter. Yes, more saves,
> but a different era (he was, no pun intended, the king of the
> "automatic" one inning save.) I don't think Rice/Dawson/Murphy were
> quite good enough (not that I wouldn't mind them on my team) compared
> to other outfielders in and out of the Hall, but I believe Trammell did
> (certainly ahead of Concepcion) as did Whitaker, but Sweet Lou didn't
> make the cut a few years back.
>

I disagree. Smith is only 4 years younger than Sutter, and he lasted much
longer. If Sutter had lasted 18 years like Smith did, Sutter would have 450+
saves. Sutter was first, but Smith took Sutter's start and ran with it. And
besides, Sutter only played 12 seasons. 300 saves or not, no relief pitcher
who only plays 12 seasons should be in the HOF.

Gossage was only two years older than Sutter and played 22 years, though he
probably should have retired after 20. He was relegated to a setup role in
his mid-30s, or he may have come close to 400 saves in the early '90s.

I rank those three in this order: Smith, Gossage, Sutter

And dozens of others fall in place among them.




01 Jan 2006 04:26:55
JPM III
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

<zamdrist@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1135741992.676281.317370@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Generally speaking I go by the 3000 hits, 300 wins & 500 homerun
> measure. In which case none of them would be voted in.
>
> Out of that crowd I would have to pick Andre Dawson though, largely for
> the blend of speed and power that the other sluggers didn't have in
> this group.

Generally, I do too. But automatic qualifiers tend to be good enough if just
one of them are met. For players who only come close, other things should be
considered. And for players who come close to more than one, (Dawson's over
400 home runs and 2700 hits) they should get extra consideration.




01 Jan 2006 05:07:38
JPM III
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

<comish4lif@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1135797346.986304.67370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'd vote Yea to: Blyleven, Gossage, and Dawson.
>
> Gossage - a dominant feared reliever. Not one of today's come in in the
> top of the 9th with a 3 run lead kind of saves. Gossage threw about 1
> 2/3 per appearance during his years as a closer.
>
> Blyleven - 5th all time in Ks. A famous curveball. 287 Wins. ERA + of
> 118.
>
> Dawson - the Hawk. 8 time All Star. 8 Gold Gloves. 4 Silver Slugger
> Awards. 438 Bombs. 314 Steals. 4787 Total Bases - 24th all time (more
> than Yount, Tony Perez, Mantle, CLemente, Schmidt, Eddie Matthews...).
> 1591 Ribbies. Career OPS+ of 119.

I've found that a good measure of long-lasting excellence for an offensive
player's career is a matter of simple addition:

TB + BB

Why does it work? Because over the length of a career, these are the numbers
that matter. Plus, a player's health and longevity add to his overall value
in the long run. Here are the top ten:

8258 Hank Aaron
7895 Barry Bonds
7855 Babe Ruth
7733 Stan Musial
7530 Willie Mays
7384 Carl Yastremski
7318 Pete Rose
7108 Ty Cobb
6903 Ted Williams
6793 Frank Robinson

Of course, no one would suggest that Williams was a less valuable player,
when available, than Yastremski or Rose. The point is that almost EVERYONE
over 5000 should probably be a Hall of Fame shoo-in. (Run the numbers. Find
someone at 5000 who is eligible but isn't in, and tell me why. You can start
with Dave Parker. Dwight Evans (385 HR)? Darrell Evans (414 HR)? Harold
Baines (384 HR)? Chili Davis (350 HR)?

Why is it that the HOF qualifying "stats" rank some of these players so
lowly?




01 Jan 2006 18:05:24
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

JPM III <jpmccord@hotmail.com > trolled:
> "jdunlop" <jdunlop@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1135740439.708656.148180@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I'd vote for Gossage, Sutter, Blyleven, John and Trammell. I can't see
> > voting for Lee Smith ahead of either Goose or Sutter. Yes, more saves,
> > but a different era (he was, no pun intended, the king of the
> > "automatic" one inning save.) I don't think Rice/Dawson/Murphy were
> > quite good enough (not that I wouldn't mind them on my team) compared
> > to other outfielders in and out of the Hall, but I believe Trammell did
> > (certainly ahead of Concepcion) as did Whitaker, but Sweet Lou didn't
> > make the cut a few years back.
> >

> I disagree. Smith is only 4 years younger than Sutter, and he lasted much
> longer. If Sutter had lasted 18 years like Smith did, Sutter would have 450+
> saves. Sutter was first, but Smith took Sutter's start and ran with it. And
> besides, Sutter only played 12 seasons. 300 saves or not, no relief pitcher
> who only plays 12 seasons should be in the HOF.

> Gossage was only two years older than Sutter and played 22 years, though he
> probably should have retired after 20. He was relegated to a setup role in
> his mid-30s, or he may have come close to 400 saves in the early '90s.

> I rank those three in this order: Smith, Gossage, Sutter

> And dozens of others fall in place among them.

I think Tom Henke was the best relief pitcher.

cordially, as always,

rm


01 Jan 2006 13:58:20
jdunlop
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

JPM III wrote:
> "jdunlop" <jdunlop@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1135740439.708656.148180@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I'd vote for Gossage, Sutter, Blyleven, John and Trammell. I can't see
> > voting for Lee Smith ahead of either Goose or Sutter. Yes, more saves,
> > but a different era (he was, no pun intended, the king of the
> > "automatic" one inning save.) I don't think Rice/Dawson/Murphy were
> > quite good enough (not that I wouldn't mind them on my team) compared
> > to other outfielders in and out of the Hall, but I believe Trammell did
> > (certainly ahead of Concepcion) as did Whitaker, but Sweet Lou didn't
> > make the cut a few years back.
> >
>
> I disagree. Smith is only 4 years younger than Sutter, and he lasted much
> longer. If Sutter had lasted 18 years like Smith did, Sutter would have 450+
> saves. Sutter was first, but Smith took Sutter's start and ran with it. And
> besides, Sutter only played 12 seasons. 300 saves or not, no relief pitcher
> who only plays 12 seasons should be in the HOF.

There's an argument that no pitcher who only pitches 80 innings a year
should be in the Hall, too. (Not that I agree with that, although the
pitcher needs to be especially dominating.) A similiar argument was
made against Puckett and well before him, Kiner. How about Koufax?
(Not suggesting that you don't make a good point about career length.)

>
> Gossage was only two years older than Sutter and played 22 years, though he
> probably should have retired after 20. He was relegated to a setup role in
> his mid-30s, or he may have come close to 400 saves in the early '90s.
>
Of course, I'd argue that Smith should have retired after 16. Sutter's
injury did cost him in the counting stats.

I guess I do give Sutter more points for being "first" as it was
(thanks to Herman Franks.) I don't see Smith quite as dominating as
Sutter or Gossage (partly from relooking at stats, perhaps more from
watching them pitch and reading contemporary articles.) I felt that
Sutter and Goose were more "unhittable" than Smith ever was. Regarding
ages/eras, six years difference in relief pitchers was a big deal in
the '70s and '80s, given the changing practices.

> I rank those three in this order: Smith, Gossage, Sutter

And I'd put them Goose, Sutter, Smith.

> And dozens of others fall in place among them.

Who else would you have in the line between them? Franco? Quiz?

(Of active pitchers, I'd think Rivera's passed the bus test, I'm not
sure I'd vote for any other relievers. There's probably somebody out
there I've forgotten, Hoffman perhaps.)



01 Jan 2006 16:14:02
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


jdunlop wrote:

>
> Who else would you have in the line between them? Franco? Quiz?

Franco will never be in the hall, not in a million years. Good career
ERA but never was a dominant reliever, the perfect example of a guy who
was a fine pitcher and reliever but not close to being a HOFer.
>
> (Of active pitchers, I'd think Rivera's passed the bus test, I'm not
> sure I'd vote for any other relievers. There's probably somebody out
> there I've forgotten, Hoffman perhaps.)

I'm with you here. Rivera is probably in. Hoffman, I don't know, maybe
boarderline (I wouldn't put him in). Unfortunetely for them, they play
in the age of the 3-run lead, 3-out save, so that's not going to help
them at all.



04 Jan 2006 18:03:09
willreich_77@yahoo.com
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


JPM III wrote:
> <comish4lif@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1135797346.986304.67370@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I'd vote Yea to: Blyleven, Gossage, and Dawson.
> >
> > Gossage - a dominant feared reliever. Not one of today's come in in the
> > top of the 9th with a 3 run lead kind of saves. Gossage threw about 1
> > 2/3 per appearance during his years as a closer.
> >
> > Blyleven - 5th all time in Ks. A famous curveball. 287 Wins. ERA + of
> > 118.
> >
> > Dawson - the Hawk. 8 time All Star. 8 Gold Gloves. 4 Silver Slugger
> > Awards. 438 Bombs. 314 Steals. 4787 Total Bases - 24th all time (more
> > than Yount, Tony Perez, Mantle, CLemente, Schmidt, Eddie Matthews...).
> > 1591 Ribbies. Career OPS+ of 119.
>
> I've found that a good measure of long-lasting excellence for an offensive
> player's career is a matter of simple addition:
>
> TB + BB
>
> Why does it work? Because over the length of a career, these are the numbers
> that matter. Plus, a player's health and longevity add to his overall value
> in the long run. Here are the top ten:
>
> 8258 Hank Aaron
> 7895 Barry Bonds
> 7855 Babe Ruth
> 7733 Stan Musial
> 7530 Willie Mays
> 7384 Carl Yastremski
> 7318 Pete Rose
> 7108 Ty Cobb
> 6903 Ted Williams
> 6793 Frank Robinson
>
> Of course, no one would suggest that Williams was a less valuable player,
> when available, than Yastremski or Rose. The point is that almost EVERYONE
> over 5000 should probably be a Hall of Fame shoo-in. (Run the numbers. Find
> someone at 5000 who is eligible but isn't in, and tell me why. You can start
> with Dave Parker. Dwight Evans (385 HR)? Darrell Evans (414 HR)? Harold
> Baines (384 HR)? Chili Davis (350 HR)?
>
> Why is it that the HOF qualifying "stats" rank some of these players so
> lowly?

Are there CAREER pennants? Can you win a career WS? I agree that these
numbers look like a decent general guideline for career value but I am
out of step with most of you guys. I would rather have Mantle '56-'57
than anyone's career.

Still, those guys helped win a lot of pennants and WS and players over
5000 in those particular counting stats do look like HoF players to me.
I don't like counting BB as the same as a single, though. No one ever
scored from Second on somone else's walk. I would probably modify that
stat if I wanted to bother with it.

Harold Baines had no defensive value for most of his career. Not his
fault but the whole HoF thing isn't about "deserving," It's about
either being famous or helping your team win ballgames or both. He was
not famous. In the other method of evaluation, he didn't help with half
of the equation. Sure, a corner OF doesn't help as much on the
defensive side as he does on the offensive but he helps SOME. All the
rest of those guys look reasonable to me.

Will in New Haven

--

"He was born with the gift of laughter and the knowledge that the
world was mad."_Scaramouche_ by Raphael Sabatini



04 Jan 2006 20:19:20
Stuthehistoryguy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

I'd vote for Blyleven (top ten in strikeouts AND shutouts--how is he
not a Hall of Famer?), Goose (the most effective reliever of my
lifetime), and the Hawk--the 8 gold gloves put him over in my book.

My prediction--no pick. There isn't a sure-fire HOFer in the group.



05 Jan 2006 06:38:58
Roger Moore
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

"willreich_77@yahoo.com" <willreich_77@yahoo.com > writes:

>Are there CAREER pennants? Can you win a career WS?

No, but players can help to win pennants and Series titles in seasons
where they're "just" good, rather than the very best player in the game.
A guy who's a consistent All Star may very well help his team win more
pennants and Series titles than one who's an MVP candidate in his best
seasons and mediocre for the rest of his career.

>I agree that these
>numbers look like a decent general guideline for career value but I am
>out of step with most of you guys. I would rather have Mantle '56-'57
>than anyone's career.

I think that you're crazy to go that far. A great player can do a lot,
but no one player is great enough to turn a really bad team into a good
one, or even an average team into a pennant winner. It would be wonderful
to have Mantle's 1956-57, but that kind of season is only useful if you
can time it to coincide with when the rest of the team is good.

Consider the Senators/Twins, for instance. Had they gotten Mantle's 1956
and 1957, it would have gotten them nothing. As great as Mantle was in
those seasons, he wasn't good enough to push the 59-95 1956 Senators and
55-99 1957 Senators out of the second division.

But give the 1962-67 Twins Mantle's lesser, but still valuable, 1962-67
seasons and you might have something really valuable. Having Mantle in CF
in 1962 instead of Lenny Green might easily have pushed the Twins ahead of
the Yankees for the pennant. Having Mantle available in the 1965 Series
might have made the difference against the Dodgers. Having Mantle instead
of Ted Uhlaender could have put them over the top in 1967. That's two
pennant races and a World Series that might have been effected, even
though the seasons in question are quite a bit less impressive.

That's why looking at career stats is important.

--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (raj@alumni.caltech.edu)
There's no point in questioning authority if you don't listen to the answers.


05 Jan 2006 08:01:54
Raymond DiPerna
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Roger Moore wrote:
> "willreich_77@yahoo.com" <willreich_77@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >Are there CAREER pennants? Can you win a career WS?
>
> No, but players can help to win pennants and Series titles in seasons
> where they're "just" good, rather than the very best player in the game.
> A guy who's a consistent All Star may very well help his team win more
> pennants and Series titles than one who's an MVP candidate in his best
> seasons and mediocre for the rest of his career.

Hmm. I thought the research in this area tended to show the opposite
-- that you'd probably rather have the latter player than the former.
No?

--Ray



05 Jan 2006 08:20:04
Ron Johnson
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Raymond DiPerna wrote:
> Roger Moore wrote:
> > "willreich_77@yahoo.com" <willreich_77@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> > >Are there CAREER pennants? Can you win a career WS?
> >
> > No, but players can help to win pennants and Series titles in seasons
> > where they're "just" good, rather than the very best player in the game.
> > A guy who's a consistent All Star may very well help his team win more
> > pennants and Series titles than one who's an MVP candidate in his best
> > seasons and mediocre for the rest of his career.
>
> Hmm. I thought the research in this area tended to show the opposite
> -- that you'd probably rather have the latter player than the former.
> No?

What that research showed was that given two equal "career value"
totals the one with more swings (more high and low points) is
likely to produce more pennants.

And I'm not sure that this is true of the inner circle players players
(as
Mantle is) in any case. Hell of a player in his less valuable seasons.



05 Jan 2006 17:35:25
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Raymond DiPerna <rdiperna@nyc.rr.com > trolled:
> Roger Moore wrote:

> > No, but players can help to win pennants and Series titles in
> > seasons where they're "just" good, rather than the very best
> > player in the game. A guy who's a consistent All Star may very
> > well help his team win more pennants and Series titles than one
> > who's an MVP candidate in his best seasons and mediocre for the
> > rest of his career.

> Hmm. I thought the research in this area tended to show the
> opposite -- that you'd probably rather have the latter player than
> the former. No?

There are way too many variables to track to do any meaningful
"research" about this, or most of the other generalizations made
about the game.

Always remember this, the statistical generalizations made about
baseball were always made by those who could not understand the game
in any other manner.

cordially, as always,

rm


05 Jan 2006 10:03:56
Stuthehistoryguy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Realto Margarino wrote:

> Always remember this, the statistical generalizations made about
> baseball were always made by those who could not understand the game
> in any other manner.
>

Yep, that know-nothing Earl Weaver sure burns my butt!



05 Jan 2006 19:04:29
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Stuthehistoryguy <stuthehistoryguy@yahoo.com > trolled:

> Realto Margarino wrote:

> > Always remember this, the statistical generalizations made about
> > baseball were always made by those who could not understand the game
> > in any other manner.
> >

> Yep, that know-nothing Earl Weaver sure burns my butt!

Earl Weaver? Earl Weaver's secret to good baseball was his
organization's development of good pitching. Weaver advocated
getting players on base and hitting for power because he didn't know
anything else to do. He couldn't handle his pitchers.

He was wholly overrated and his teams mostly choked. He won _1_ WS in
nearly 20 years of managing.

Using the same management philosophy - stand back and keep out of
the way - Cito Gaston won twice as many WS. Nobody is calling for
Gaston to go to the HoF.

cordially, as always,

rm


05 Jan 2006 19:37:35
Roger Moore
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

"Raymond DiPerna" <rdiperna@nyc.rr.com > writes:

>Roger Moore wrote:

>> No, but players can help to win pennants and Series titles in seasons
>> where they're "just" good, rather than the very best player in the game.
>> A guy who's a consistent All Star may very well help his team win more
>> pennants and Series titles than one who's an MVP candidate in his best
>> seasons and mediocre for the rest of his career.

>Hmm. I thought the research in this area tended to show the opposite
>-- that you'd probably rather have the latter player than the former.
>No?

Assuming that you have two players of equal career value, the one who was
less consistent probably helped his team a bit more. But that assumes
equal value. My point is that you can place the value of peak performance
too high if you start ignoring career value completely. Sandy Koufax may
very well have had a better peak than Warren Spahn, but that doesn't mean
that he helped his teams more than Spahn did. The small advantage of
Koufax having concentrated his career performance into a handful of
dominant seasons isn't enough to overcome Spahn's advantage in quantity of
performance.

--
Roger Moore | Master of Meaningless Trivia | (raj@alumni.caltech.edu)
There's no point in questioning authority if you don't listen to the answers.


05 Jan 2006 12:01:32
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Roger Moore wrote:
> "Raymond DiPerna" <rdiperna@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>>
> Assuming that you have two players of equal career value, the one who was
> less consistent probably helped his team a bit more. But that assumes
> equal value. My point is that you can place the value of peak performance
> too high if you start ignoring career value completely. Sandy Koufax may
> very well have had a better peak than Warren Spahn, but that doesn't mean
> that he helped his teams more than Spahn did. The small advantage of
> Koufax having concentrated his career performance into a handful of
> dominant seasons isn't enough to overcome Spahn's advantage in quantity of
> performance.
>
>
A lot of people think Koufax is the greatest lefty of all time and I
say that's stupid. A guy with five great seasons? Up until Johnson, I
always figured Spahn as the greatest lefty and 13 twenty-win seasons
backs up that claim pretty well.



05 Jan 2006 13:28:28
David the Nationals Fan
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Wunnuy wrote:

> A lot of people think Koufax is the greatest lefty of all time and I
> say that's stupid. A guy with five great seasons? Up until Johnson, I
> always figured Spahn as the greatest lefty and 13 twenty-win seasons
> backs up that claim pretty well.

The question is whether you judge a player by peak, career or some
combination thereof. (And, of course, wins by a pitcher is a pretty
silly way of doing it. Wins are a stat which is team dependent and
often out of the control of the pitcher. Consider the following:

Hardluck Harry pitches a great game. Not a single batter gets a hit
out of the infield and 18 of them strike out and no one walks. But
his catcher drops a third strike, thows it over the first baseman and
the runner moves to second. Before the next pitch Hard luck Harry
Picks the runner off second, but the second baseman drops the pick off
throw and over throws third. Runner scores. Hard Luck Harry's team
(and Hardluck Harry) loses.

Goodtime Charlie, in contrast, gives up 7 runs in 5+ innings. But his
team scores 14 runs. Goodtime Charlie gets the win.

Who's the "greater" pitcher?

In the case of Spahn, for example, one of those 20+ win seasons came in
a year when he had an ERA worse than League average. (1960) and he
ended up with a career OPS+ which was "only" 118. Koufax ended up
with an ERA+ of 131. (And of course any discussion of the greatest
left handed pitchers of all time should include Lefty Grove, with 300
wins and an ERA+ of 148)



05 Jan 2006 14:15:42
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

What happened to our Soriano - Wilkerson bet? You still haven't agreed
to it.



05 Jan 2006 23:44:12
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

David the Nationals Fan <davidthenatfan@yahoo.com > trolled:

> Hardluck Harry pitches a great game. Not a single batter gets a hit
> out of the infield and 18 of them strike out and no one walks. But
> his catcher drops a third strike, thows it over the first baseman and
> the runner moves to second. Before the next pitch Hard luck Harry
> Picks the runner off second, but the second baseman drops the pick off
> throw and over throws third. Runner scores. Hard Luck Harry's team
> (and Hardluck Harry) loses.

> Goodtime Charlie, in contrast, gives up 7 runs in 5+ innings. But his
> team scores 14 runs. Goodtime Charlie gets the win.

> Who's the "greater" pitcher?

Goodtime Charlie had the better day. And there is nothing at all
wrong with recognizing it.

> In the case of Spahn, for example, one of those 20+ win seasons came in
> a year when he had an ERA worse than League average. (1960) and he
> ended up with a career OPS+ which was "only" 118. Koufax ended up
> with an ERA+ of 131. (And of course any discussion of the greatest
> left handed pitchers of all time should include Lefty Grove, with 300
> wins and an ERA+ of 148)

There is no reason to be comparing Spahn and Koufax. They both had
successful careers, and for very different reasons.

When comparing individuals in a team sport, you compare success.
The more successful the individual, the greater his career. If you
want to compare efficiency in a team sport, like baseball, it is
appropriate to compare the efficiency of teams only.

The teams are trying to be the most efficient. The players are
trying to be the most successful.

Repeat this 3 times every time you get out of bed every afternoon.

Again, teams strive for efficiency, players strive for success. The
most efficient teams have the most successful players and the most
successful players, play on the most efficient teams.

The most successful pitchers on the most efficient teams put up 20
win seasons. The most efficient teams, playing the most successful
players, have 100 win seasons.

That shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

cordially, as always,

rm


05 Jan 2006 15:49:18
David the Nationals Fan
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Sure I have.



06 Jan 2006 12:47:59
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

David the Nationals Fan <davidthenatfan@yahoo.com > trolled:

> Sure I have.

What on earth is this supposed to mean?

cordially, as always,

rm


06 Jan 2006 20:34:45
JPM III
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

>> TB + BB
>>
>> Why does it work? Because over the length of a career, these are the
>> numbers
>> that matter. Plus, a player's health and longevity add to his overall
>> value
>> in the long run. Here are the top ten:
>>
>> 8258 Hank Aaron
>> 7895 Barry Bonds
>> 7855 Babe Ruth
>> 7733 Stan Musial
>> 7530 Willie Mays
>> 7384 Carl Yastremski
>> 7318 Pete Rose
>> 7108 Ty Cobb
>> 6903 Ted Williams
>> 6793 Frank Robinson
>>
>> Of course, no one would suggest that Williams was a less valuable player,
>> when available, than Yastremski or Rose. The point is that almost
>> EVERYONE
>> over 5000 should probably be a Hall of Fame shoo-in. (Run the numbers.
>> Find
>> someone at 5000 who is eligible but isn't in, and tell me why. You can
>> start
>> with Dave Parker. Dwight Evans (385 HR)? Darrell Evans (414 HR)? Harold
>> Baines (384 HR)? Chili Davis (350 HR)?
>>
>> Why is it that the HOF qualifying "stats" rank some of these players so
>> lowly?
>
> Are there CAREER pennants? Can you win a career WS? I agree that these
> numbers look like a decent general guideline for career value but I am
> out of step with most of you guys. I would rather have Mantle '56-'57
> than anyone's career.
>
> Still, those guys helped win a lot of pennants and WS and players over
> 5000 in those particular counting stats do look like HoF players to me.
> I don't like counting BB as the same as a single, though. No one ever
> scored from Second on somone else's walk. I would probably modify that
> stat if I wanted to bother with it.

I have modified it. But perfecting it by complicating it barely alters the
order of the list, so it's not worth it. This provides a very convenient
list.

And, also, teams win pennants, not individuals. Mantle didn't win a World
Series; he just contributed (significantly!) on a few teams that won big.
Just ask Ernie Banks fans.




06 Jan 2006 20:36:28
JPM III
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

"Stuthehistoryguy" <stuthehistoryguy@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1136434760.526597.158680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'd vote for Blyleven (top ten in strikeouts AND shutouts--how is he
> not a Hall of Famer?), Goose (the most effective reliever of my
> lifetime), and the Hawk--the 8 gold gloves put him over in my book.
>
> My prediction--no pick. There isn't a sure-fire HOFer in the group.

I think Blyleven and Dawson should both be shoo-ins. I think Dawson will go
in solo.




07 Jan 2006 02:59:40
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

JPM III <jpmccord@hotmail.com > trolled:
> "Stuthehistoryguy" <stuthehistoryguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1136434760.526597.158680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I'd vote for Blyleven (top ten in strikeouts AND shutouts--how is he
> > not a Hall of Famer?), Goose (the most effective reliever of my
> > lifetime), and the Hawk--the 8 gold gloves put him over in my book.
> >
> > My prediction--no pick. There isn't a sure-fire HOFer in the group.

> I think Blyleven and Dawson should both be shoo-ins. I think Dawson will go
> in solo.

Dawson was one of the few, authentic "5-tool" players and, until his
knees went, he was considered the most complete player in baseball.
But he didn't get much hype (except from Bill James) from the US
media because his best years were spent in Canada.

cordially, as always,

rm


06 Jan 2006 08:28:53
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


David the Nationals Fan wrote:
> Sure I have.

No, we were still working out the details.

What are the exact stats we are going by? What is the period of "no
posting" for the loser? You didn't agree or even answer my query about
the players being traded. I said you could put Wilkerson on any team
and Soriano will still hit better than him and agreed to even give you
CO, but if Soriano is traded there it would be nullified. If Wilkerson
is better it shouldn't matter what team he's on so if the players are
traded it shouldn't matter, although I will allow you to tellme the
other teams you won't accept Soriano on. This has to be worked out
still. Also, you didn't agree yet to "no posting in baseball only
groups" either. We need to be exact on the details so there's no saying
"well you didn't say this or that" later on.



09 Jan 2006 07:54:23
Von Fourche
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


"Mark Vaughan" <m.a.vaughan@invalid.address.net > wrote in message
news:Xns9739D1731A8F5LarryLidar@70.168.83.30...
> "JPM III" <jpmccord@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:a1ksf.221199$0l5.6470@dukeread06:
>
>> http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/ballot?event_id=1883
>>
> [ ... ]
>>
>> My picks:
>> Blyleven, Dawson, John, Murphy, Rice, and Smith
>
> all in all, it's not an outstanding group...and with the exception of
> Blyleven, nobody eligible this time around is, IMHO, an obvious choice.
> (#24 all-time in gray ink seems like a shoo-in to me...though clearly
> my opinion is not shared by the actual voters :^)



Dawson gets my vote. Why? One reason - I'm a Cubs fan.








08 Jan 2006 02:00:09
Stuthehistoryguy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Earl Weaver "couldn't handle his pitchers".

Roger Maynard, the king of dada baseball commentary.



08 Jan 2006 01:59:27
Stuthehistoryguy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Realto Margarino wrote:

> Dawson was one of the few, authentic "5-tool" players and, until his
> knees went, he was considered the most complete player in baseball.
> But he didn't get much hype (except from Bill James) from the US
> media because his best years were spent in Canada.
>

Now that's not fair! You actually made sense!



07 Jan 2006 23:06:53
Stuthehistoryguy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Earl Weaver "couldn't handle his pitchers".

Roger Maynard, the king of dada baseball commentary.



09 Jan 2006 12:49:31
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Stuthehistoryguy <stuthehistoryguy@yahoo.com > trolled:
> Earl Weaver "couldn't handle his pitchers".

> Roger Maynard, the king of dada baseball commentary.

I'll take Palmer's word for it, ahead of yours, if you don't mind.
The O's organization gave Weaver the pitching. All he had to do was
write their names into the lineup.

cordially, as always,

rm


09 Jan 2006 12:52:31
Realto Margarino
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Stuthehistoryguy <stuthehistoryguy@yahoo.com > trolled:
> Earl Weaver "couldn't handle his pitchers".

> Roger Maynard, the king of dada baseball commentary.

Who the fuck is "Roger Maynard?" If you're truly a "historyguy"
then you should be able to come up with a better name than that.

cordially, as always,

rm


09 Jan 2006 07:46:51
Stuthehistoryguy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?


Realto Margarino wrote:
> Stuthehistoryguy <stuthehistoryguy@yahoo.com> trolled:
> > Earl Weaver "couldn't handle his pitchers".
>
> > Roger Maynard, the king of dada baseball commentary.
>
> I'll take Palmer's word for it, ahead of yours, if you don't mind.

The guy they called Cry Young?

> The O's organization gave Weaver the pitching. All he had to do was
> write their names into the lineup.

Alas, the nonfalsifiable hypothesis. Thanks for making my point for
me, Maynard.



09 Jan 2006 22:07:09
Tom MacIntyre
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 02:59:40 GMT, Realto Margarino <rm@biteme.org >
wrote:

>JPM III <jpmccord@hotmail.com> trolled:
>> "Stuthehistoryguy" <stuthehistoryguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1136434760.526597.158680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > I'd vote for Blyleven (top ten in strikeouts AND shutouts--how is he
>> > not a Hall of Famer?), Goose (the most effective reliever of my
>> > lifetime), and the Hawk--the 8 gold gloves put him over in my book.
>> >
>> > My prediction--no pick. There isn't a sure-fire HOFer in the group.
>
>> I think Blyleven and Dawson should both be shoo-ins. I think Dawson will go
>> in solo.
>
>Dawson was one of the few, authentic "5-tool" players and, until his
>knees went, he was considered the most complete player in baseball.
>But he didn't get much hype (except from Bill James) from the US
>media because his best years were spent in Canada.

My son and I were talking about outfield today, and I mentioned about
Dawson having a strong enough arm to make a totally successful
transition from center to right.

Tom

>
>cordially, as always,
>
>rm



09 Jan 2006 14:40:52
Wunnuy
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

I'm surprised every year that his vote totals aren't closer. I figured
he would have made it in by his second year.



10 Jan 2006 15:38:08
pearly soames
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

Wunnuy wrote:
> I'm surprised every year that his vote totals aren't closer. I figured
> he would have made it in by his second year.
>

Who?

--
Where are the prawns?
Down by the sea.


11 Jan 2006 23:10:33
Tom MacIntyre
Re: Hall of Fame Class of 2006: Who Gets Your Vote?

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:38:08 -0500, pearly soames
<mr_soames@REMOVEbellsouth.net > wrote:

>Wunnuy wrote:
>> I'm surprised every year that his vote totals aren't closer. I figured
>> he would have made it in by his second year.
>>
>
>Who?

I'd guess Dawson...

Tom