25 Feb 2004 12:19:08
guanxi
Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
A-Rod?

Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
an easy answer.


25 Feb 2004 20:36:49
Lynn Dimick
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

On 25 Feb 2004 12:19:08 -0800, guanxi_i@yahoo.com (guanxi) wrote:

>Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
>considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
>A-Rod?
>
>Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
>an easy answer.

I would not annoint ARod as a great 3B yet. Many current players have
made the move from SS and they are warning about some initial shock
happening. basically it's a game of wait and dodge the ball. You don't
have as much time to set throw etc. No doubt he'll be fine but until I
see him play it for a couple of years I'd go with Schmidt.


25 Feb 2004 20:46:02
Dvd Avins
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

"Lynn Dimick" <ldimick@socal.rr.com > wrote in message
news:mo1q30h6bds49qrhf95rh0hsi46n9a7ft8@4ax.com...

<snip >

> I would not annoint ARod as a great 3B yet. Many current players have
> made the move from SS and they are warning about some initial shock
> happening. basically it's a game of wait and dodge the ball. You don't
> have as much time to set throw etc.

Isn't the third baseman typically actually closer to 1B than the SS is,
because the SS plays deeper? And the ball gets to the third baseman more
quickly, too, though not by much. So shouldn't the third baseman have *more*
time to set and throw?

Not that there aren't other thing that will make for an adjustment period; I
just doubt that time to throw is one of them.




25 Feb 2004 21:00:06
Lynn Dimick
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:46:02 GMT, "Dvd Avins"
<dvdNOavinsSPAM@pobox.com > wrote:

>"Lynn Dimick" <ldimick@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:mo1q30h6bds49qrhf95rh0hsi46n9a7ft8@4ax.com...
>
><snip>
>
>> I would not annoint ARod as a great 3B yet. Many current players have
>> made the move from SS and they are warning about some initial shock
>> happening. basically it's a game of wait and dodge the ball. You don't
>> have as much time to set throw etc.
>
>Isn't the third baseman typically actually closer to 1B than the SS is,
>because the SS plays deeper? And the ball gets to the third baseman more
>quickly, too, though not by much. So shouldn't the third baseman have *more*
>time to set and throw?
>
>Not that there aren't other thing that will make for an adjustment period; I
>just doubt that time to throw is one of them.

Not according to Troy Glaus, who has made that transition. The 3rd
baseman generally has to play closer than 1B by a long ways too.
Imagine trying to field the bunt form 3B and then throw. You are never
asked to throw like that from SS. Going back into the hole at SS is
actually easier because you can always throw it to 1st on a hop.

But that was not one that I would have thought of without reading
Troy's comments. Even Mike Sciosia said the same thing.


25 Feb 2004 21:13:28
Drew Volpe
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

Last time we met, Lynn Dimick <ldimick@socal.rr.com > had said:
> On 25 Feb 2004 12:19:08 -0800, guanxi_i@yahoo.com (guanxi) wrote:
>
> >Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
> >considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
> >A-Rod?
> >
> >Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
> >an easy answer.
>
> I would not annoint ARod as a great 3B yet. Many current players have
> made the move from SS and they are warning about some initial shock
> happening. basically it's a game of wait and dodge the ball. You don't
> have as much time to set throw etc. No doubt he'll be fine but until I
> see him play it for a couple of years I'd go with Schmidt.


There was an interesting interview in the Boston Globe a few days
ago with John Valentin who was asked to move from SS to 3B by the
Red Sox when Garciaparra came up. He said it was more difficult than
one would think and it took him a long time before he felt like he
was really a 3B and not a SS playing out of position.

From his stats, though, it looks like even in his first year playing
out of position, Valentin (who had been a good defensive SS), was
a well above-average defensive 3B.

I still can't believe the Yankees are going to keep Jeter at short. ARod
is a very good defender, while Jeter was never great defensively,
will be 30 in June and has declined in each of the last few seasons:

RnF lgRnF
'00 4.12 4.71
'01 3.81 4.49
'02 3.81 4.56
'03 3.75 4.54

It would be natural to move him to 3B soon anyway.



dv

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The geographical center of Boston is in Roxbury. Due north of the
center we find the South End. This is not to be confused with South
Boston which lies directly east from the South End. North of the South
End is East Boston and southwest of East Boston is the North End.


25 Feb 2004 21:59:11
Josprung
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

>Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
>considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
>A-Rod?

Let's see how ARod handles the bunt, and the slow rollers before we even
consider giving him GG's, etc.

Danny


25 Feb 2004 16:28:53
Paul Botts
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?


"guanxi" <guanxi_i@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:6d7a61c9.0402251219.3a55aedf@posting.google.com...
> Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
> considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
> A-Rod?
>

I take it we're talking here about peak value as a 3B -- obviously ARod
can't from this point forward end up near the top of the 3B list on career
value.

So considering this as a peak-value question....the chances of a Gold Glove
shortstop in his physical prime not being at least an above-average
defensive 3B seem tiny. The chances of him being an excellent defensive 3B
seem quite good. Regardless, comparing thirdbasemen as _overall_ players has
a smaller defensive component than for comparing shortstops as _overall_
players.

So frankly ARod's defense at 3B seems unlikely to be a major variable for
this comparison. If we assume that ARod is in his peak now (!) and continues
it successfully as a 3B, well....his last five park-adjusted OPS+ totals
have been 160, 167, 164, 152, 148. Looking at Schmidt, I see a stretch that
goes 154, 170, 199, 162, 156, 154. Pretty comparable except for Schmidt's
199 which comes with an asterisk cause its actually only 2/3 of a season
(1981 strike year)....if ARod keeps doing what he's been doing, and is in
fact a good-to-excellent defensive 3B, it'll be worth talking about.





25 Feb 2004 22:41:19
Cameron Laird
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In article <mo1q30h6bds49qrhf95rh0hsi46n9a7ft8@4ax.com >,
Lynn Dimick <ldimick@socal.rr.com > wrote:
>On 25 Feb 2004 12:19:08 -0800, guanxi_i@yahoo.com (guanxi) wrote:
>
>>Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
>>considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
>>A-Rod?
>>
>>Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
>>an easy answer.
>
>I would not annoint ARod as a great 3B yet. Many current players have
>made the move from SS and they are warning about some initial shock
>happening. basically it's a game of wait and dodge the ball. You don't
>have as much time to set throw etc. No doubt he'll be fine but until I
>see him play it for a couple of years I'd go with Schmidt.

... who himself was a college All-American at short, and
who played a couple of dozen games there in the majors.

But, yes, it'll be interesting to see how Mr. Rodriguez
does at third, assuming, of course, that Mr. Jeter's ego
confines him there.
--

Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit.net >
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net


25 Feb 2004 20:20:40
M. Zaiem Beg
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

On 25 Feb 2004, guanxi wrote:

- >Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
- >considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
- >A-Rod?

I'm going to go on record as saying that Jeter, not Rodriguez, will be the
team's full-time 3B by the all-star break. It's such a monumental waste of
resources to do otherwise.

--
M. Zaiem Beg zbeg@iglou.com




26 Feb 2004 01:31:59
Regina Litman
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

Cameron Laird wrote:

[referring to Mike Schmidt]

>
> ... who himself was a college All-American at short, and
> who played a couple of dozen games there in the majors.

Including the bottom of the ninth in the game at Pittsburgh in which he
hit his 500th home run in the top of that inning. The Phillies rallied
to go ahead to stay in that inning, and one way in which they did it was
to pinch hit for Steve Jeltz.

A large number of the basemen-infielders and the outfielders (and even a
few catchers, such as Brandon Inge) were shortstops in their
pre-professional days and/or in the minors. This is because shortstop
and pitcher are where a team below the professional level puts its best
athletes. The only ones who may escape playing short are the lefthanded
throwers (and this is not 100% guaranteed either - southpaw pitcher
Kenny Rogers played shortstop as a youth).

A team may draft and sign five shortstops from California, Florida, and
Texas high schools and colleges, send them all to the same rookie ball
team, and see them end up at second, third, and all three outfield
positions, while shortstop is manned by a free agent signee from the
Dominican Republic.

--
Please note my correct email address:

rslitman [at-sign] infionline [dot] net



26 Feb 2004 01:46:05
James Kahn
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In <Pine.GSO.4.33.0402252019450.8153-100000@shell1 > "M. Zaiem Beg" <zbeg@iglou.com> writes:

>On 25 Feb 2004, guanxi wrote:

>I'm going to go on record as saying that Jeter, not Rodriguez, will be the
>team's full-time 3B by the all-star break. It's such a monumental waste of
>resources to do otherwise.

Anyone catch today's NY Times: "Jeter Says Rodriguez Has the Tools
to Stand Out at Third"

To quote Jeter: "He'll pick it up probably as quickly as anyone could...."

What a generous guy.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn


26 Feb 2004 02:25:25
Corby Gilmore
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

guanxi (guanxi_i@yahoo.com) writes:
> Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
> considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
> A-Rod?
>
> Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
> an easy answer.

ARod wasnt even the greatest SHORTSTOP ever, (does the name Honus Wagner
ring a bell?), and already you are comparing him to Mike Schmidt? No
matter what ARod does in 2004 it is nonsensical in my opinion to start
discussing him in terms of "greatest 3B ever" after only 1 season at the
position.

--
Corby Gilmore
corby@ncf.ca


25 Feb 2004 20:48:54
Dale Hicks
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In article <c1jlel$5oj$1@freenet9.carleton.ca >, ai750
@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
> guanxi (guanxi_i@yahoo.com) writes:
> > Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
> > considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
> > A-Rod?
> >
> > Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
> > an easy answer.
>
> ARod wasnt even the greatest SHORTSTOP ever, (does the name Honus Wagner
> ring a bell?), and already you are comparing him to Mike Schmidt?

Well, at least they didn't compare him to Brooks Robinson.

--
Cranial Crusader dgh 1138 at bell south point net


25 Feb 2004 20:59:05
Seapig
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

Lynn Dimick <ldimick@socal.rr.com > wrote in message news:<dt2q30hijsrp529jp7lv96fhe085aer4j3@4ax.com>...
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:46:02 GMT, "Dvd Avins"
> <dvdNOavinsSPAM@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >"Lynn Dimick" <ldimick@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:mo1q30h6bds49qrhf95rh0hsi46n9a7ft8@4ax.com...
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> I would not annoint ARod as a great 3B yet. Many current players have
> >> made the move from SS and they are warning about some initial shock
> >> happening. basically it's a game of wait and dodge the ball. You don't
> >> have as much time to set throw etc.
> >
> >Isn't the third baseman typically actually closer to 1B than the SS is,
> >because the SS plays deeper? And the ball gets to the third baseman more
> >quickly, too, though not by much. So shouldn't the third baseman have *more*
> >time to set and throw?
> >
> >Not that there aren't other thing that will make for an adjustment period; I
> >just doubt that time to throw is one of them.
>
> Not according to Troy Glaus, who has made that transition. The 3rd
> baseman generally has to play closer than 1B by a long ways too.
> Imagine trying to field the bunt form 3B and then throw. You are never
> asked to throw like that from SS. Going back into the hole at SS is
> actually easier because you can always throw it to 1st on a hop.

Shortstops do occasionally have to make the barehanded play on slow
rollers. As for bouncing the throw from the hole, that's a pretty
risky play on natural turf. Even if you can do it, I don't see how it
translates into the SS having more time to set and throw - it's still
a longer throw, bouncing or not.


26 Feb 2004 15:03:41
Kenny1111
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In article <c1jj4t$oof$1@reader2.panix.com >, kahn@nospam.panix.com
says...
> In <Pine.GSO.4.33.0402252019450.8153-100000@shell1> "M. Zaiem Beg" <zbeg@iglou.com> writes:
>
> >On 25 Feb 2004, guanxi wrote:
>
> >I'm going to go on record as saying that Jeter, not Rodriguez, will be the
> >team's full-time 3B by the all-star break. It's such a monumental waste of
> >resources to do otherwise.
>
> Anyone catch today's NY Times: "Jeter Says Rodriguez Has the Tools
> to Stand Out at Third"
>
> To quote Jeter: "He'll pick it up probably as quickly as anyone could...."
>
> What a generous guy.

I think one of the problems is that Jeter probably doesn't even believe
he is a bad defensive SS, aside from the fact that it is difficult to
convince anyone who is self-confident that they aren't good at something
(which isn't always a bad think - it's obviously a good idea to believe
in yourself to at least extent). Jeter also has really never had any
criticism from the mainstream press or from fans. He's probably heard
over and over again how great he is defensively as well as offensively,
and it has reinforced what he already believed in his mind.

Of course, I'd love to say that Jeter should volunteer to move, and
somehow see himself that ARod is better. But I'm not suprised that
hasn't happened. I think it's up to Clueless Joe to put ARod as SS,
rather than relying on a player to realize he's not as good as another
player, when that player has heard nothing but good things about his
abilities and has basically had no personal failure throughout his
career.


26 Feb 2004 20:52:34
James Kahn
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In <MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net > Kenny1111 <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> writes:

>In article <c1jj4t$oof$1@reader2.panix.com>, kahn@nospam.panix.com
>says...
>>
>> Anyone catch today's NY Times: "Jeter Says Rodriguez Has the Tools
>> to Stand Out at Third"
>>
>> To quote Jeter: "He'll pick it up probably as quickly as anyone could...."
>>
>> What a generous guy.

>I think one of the problems is that Jeter probably doesn't even believe
>he is a bad defensive SS, aside from the fact that it is difficult to
>convince anyone who is self-confident that they aren't good at something
>(which isn't always a bad think - it's obviously a good idea to believe
>in yourself to at least extent). Jeter also has really never had any
>criticism from the mainstream press or from fans. He's probably heard
>over and over again how great he is defensively as well as offensively,
>and it has reinforced what he already believed in his mind.

>Of course, I'd love to say that Jeter should volunteer to move, and
>somehow see himself that ARod is better. But I'm not suprised that
>hasn't happened. I think it's up to Clueless Joe to put ARod as SS,
>rather than relying on a player to realize he's not as good as another
>player, when that player has heard nothing but good things about his
>abilities and has basically had no personal failure throughout his
>career.

I agree with all that, but he still must be aware that he is getting
his way in this, and that ARod is making the sacrifice, so there is
just something rather self-serving and patronizing in his statement.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn


26 Feb 2004 20:40:59
Douglas T. (Doug) Massey
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In article <MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net >,
Kenny1111 <kcyanks1@hotmail.com > writes:
>
> I think one of the problems is that Jeter probably doesn't even believe
> he is a bad defensive SS, aside from the fact that it is difficult to
> convince anyone who is self-confident that they aren't good at something
> (which isn't always a bad think - it's obviously a good idea to believe
> in yourself to at least extent). Jeter also has really never had any
> criticism from the mainstream press or from fans. He's probably heard
> over and over again how great he is defensively as well as offensively,
> and it has reinforced what he already believed in his mind.

You have to wonder, though, if you went up to him and showed him
the averages for assists, put-outs, errors, and double-plays for
him and for the average MLB shortstop, what would he say?

Defensive stats are murky, at best, but everything we have indicates
that he's horrible.

Doug
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer
o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | >
| Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 |
/ |
. My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)


26 Feb 2004 20:56:52
Dvd Avins
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

"James Kahn" <kahn@nospam.panix.com > wrote in message
news:c1lmai$fjv$1@reader2.panix.com...

> I agree with all that, but he still must be aware that he is getting
> his way in this, and that ARod is making the sacrifice, so there is
> just something rather self-serving and patronizing in his statement.

What's he supposed to say when he's asked how ARod will do?

--
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a
species of intemperance within itself... [It] makes a crime out of things
that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles
upon which our government was founded." - Abraham Lincoln, speech, 1840




26 Feb 2004 13:12:56
David Foss
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) wrote in message news:<c1jlel$5oj$1@freenet9.carleton.ca >...
> guanxi (guanxi_i@yahoo.com) writes:
> > Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
> > considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
> > A-Rod?
> >
> > Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
> > an easy answer.
>
> ARod wasnt even the greatest SHORTSTOP ever, (does the name Honus Wagner
> ring a bell?), and already you are comparing him to Mike Schmidt? No
> matter what ARod does in 2004 it is nonsensical in my opinion to start
> discussing him in terms of "greatest 3B ever" after only 1 season at the
> position.

Well, Honus sets the bar a little higher than Mike does. I don't
think A-Rod ever had a chance to match Wagner's level of dominance.

How do A-Rod's hitting numbers compare with the hitting numbers of the
all-time great 3B-men?

Its certainly not fair to make this comparision but its a little less
unfair when he's coming from further up the defensive spectrum.


26 Feb 2004 14:59:06
Perry Sailor
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?


"Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net...
> In article <c1jj4t$oof$1@reader2.panix.com>, kahn@nospam.panix.com
> says...

> hasn't happened. I think it's up to Clueless Joe to put ARod as SS,

Clueless Joe? Man, that's cold. I take it he won't be getting your HOF
vote, then?
Perry




26 Feb 2004 22:37:15
James Kahn
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In <o4t%b.2490$S9.81@nwrdny01.gnilink.net > "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOavinsSPAM@pobox.com> writes:

>"James Kahn" <kahn@nospam.panix.com> wrote in message
>news:c1lmai$fjv$1@reader2.panix.com...

>> I agree with all that, but he still must be aware that he is getting
>> his way in this, and that ARod is making the sacrifice, so there is
>> just something rather self-serving and patronizing in his statement.

>What's he supposed to say when he's asked how ARod will do?

I don't know if or what he was asked, but if that was the question, the
right answer would be, "We'll never know, since I'm going to move to third
and let the better defensive player play shortstop." :)

--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn


26 Feb 2004 22:38:34
Lynn Dimick
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:37:15 +0000 (UTC), kahn@nospam.panix.com (James
Kahn) wrote:

>In <o4t%b.2490$S9.81@nwrdny01.gnilink.net> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOavinsSPAM@pobox.com> writes:
>
>>"James Kahn" <kahn@nospam.panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:c1lmai$fjv$1@reader2.panix.com...
>
>>> I agree with all that, but he still must be aware that he is getting
>>> his way in this, and that ARod is making the sacrifice, so there is
>>> just something rather self-serving and patronizing in his statement.
>
>>What's he supposed to say when he's asked how ARod will do?
>
>I don't know if or what he was asked, but if that was the question, the
>right answer would be, "We'll never know, since I'm going to move to third
>and let the better defensive player play shortstop." :)

A report out of NY says that the Yankees may take Boone back NEXT year
and move Arod to short and Jeter to second.


26 Feb 2004 22:26:41
Ron Matthews
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

Perry Sailor <perry.sailor@removethiscolorado.edu > wrote:

> "Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net...
> > In article <c1jj4t$oof$1@reader2.panix.com>, kahn@nospam.panix.com
> > says...

> > hasn't happened. I think it's up to Clueless Joe to put ARod as SS,

> Clueless Joe? Man, that's cold. I take it he won't be getting your HOF
> vote, then?

Between Jeter's defense and Joe Torre's management it's no wonder
the Yankees finish last every year. Obviously ARod should go to ss
and then maybe the Yankees will actually win a few games.

cordially, even to imbeciles,

rm


26 Feb 2004 22:44:29
Ron Matthews
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

James Kahn <kahn@nospam.panix.com > wrote:
> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOavinsSPAM@pobox.com> writes:

> >What's he supposed to say when he's asked how ARod will do?

> I don't know if or what he was asked, but if that was the
> question, the right answer would be, "We'll never know, since I'm
> going to move to third and let the better defensive player play
> shortstop." :)

Jeter has won more rings playing ss than any other ss, including
ARod, in baseball. If you're saying that Jeter is not good enough
to win a WS with you're talking out of your asshole.

cordially, as always,

rm


26 Feb 2004 23:05:26
Lynn Dimick
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:44:29 GMT, Ron Matthews <whoknows@whocares.org >
wrote:

>James Kahn <kahn@nospam.panix.com> wrote:
>> "Dvd Avins" <dvdNOavinsSPAM@pobox.com> writes:
>
>> >What's he supposed to say when he's asked how ARod will do?
>
>> I don't know if or what he was asked, but if that was the
>> question, the right answer would be, "We'll never know, since I'm
>> going to move to third and let the better defensive player play
>> shortstop." :)
>
>Jeter has won more rings playing ss than any other ss, including
>ARod, in baseball. If you're saying that Jeter is not good enough
>to win a WS with you're talking out of your asshole.
>
>cordially, as always,
>
>rm

No wonder everyone likes you.


26 Feb 2004 18:25:56
Kenny1111
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In article <c1llkr$koe$2@news.btv.ibm.com >, masseyd@valhalla.no.spam.com
says...
> In article <MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net>,
> Kenny1111 <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> > I think one of the problems is that Jeter probably doesn't even believe
> > he is a bad defensive SS, aside from the fact that it is difficult to
> > convince anyone who is self-confident that they aren't good at something
> > (which isn't always a bad think - it's obviously a good idea to believe
> > in yourself to at least extent). Jeter also has really never had any
> > criticism from the mainstream press or from fans. He's probably heard
> > over and over again how great he is defensively as well as offensively,
> > and it has reinforced what he already believed in his mind.
>
> You have to wonder, though, if you went up to him and showed him
> the averages for assists, put-outs, errors, and double-plays for
> him and for the average MLB shortstop, what would he say?
>
> Defensive stats are murky, at best, but everything we have indicates
> that he's horrible.
>
> Doug

I don't know. I don't want to insult his intelligence, or say that his
belief is/would be rational or justified. I'm just trying to that
though Jeter might deserve some blame for not volunteering to move to
3B, I think Torre deserves much more of it. It is his job, as a
manager, to make these decisions. Jeter's job is to play. Maybe
someone can sit down, explain the situation, and try to prod him to
making the decision, so he feels less insulted (but would he? either
way, it would be insulting his defensive ability).


26 Feb 2004 18:31:27
Kenny1111
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In article <c1lq7b$hpn$1@peabody.colorado.edu >,
perry.sailor@ReMoVeThIscolorado.edu says...
>
> "Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net...
> > In article <c1jj4t$oof$1@reader2.panix.com>, kahn@nospam.panix.com
> > says...
>
> > hasn't happened. I think it's up to Clueless Joe to put ARod as SS,
>
> Clueless Joe? Man, that's cold. I take it he won't be getting your HOF
> vote, then?
> Perry

Soriano batting leadoff. Pinch running Wilson for Giambi routinely.
Jeter at SS. O'Neill batting 3rd and Martinez 4th their entire final
seasons. Girardi playing when Posada should have been. Using his
bullpen mechanically instead of wisely. He manages by the book and
loyalty. The book is wrong. One can be too loyal. Hence (with a little
help from the NY Post), "Clueless Joe." Is he any worse than other
managers? No. Perhaps better than many, because in the playoffs he at
least uses Rivera for 2 innings. But would I fire him? No, because as
much as I think chemistry is basically meaningless as far as wins, he
has done a good job making players want to come to the Yanks. Both
Mussina and Giambi cited Torre as a reason they came. To me that's
enough to keep him. As far as the HOF is concerned, although he's had
great teams, I'd have to give him some credit for it (though how much
who knows), and he was a very good player, so I guess I'd vote for him -
but to be honest, I've never really given him much thought.

I call him "Clueless Joe" regularly in the Yankees newsgroup, because
sometimes when I'm having a discussion with people about various things
(namely those I listed above), some will respond "But Torre does it..."
and I hate that. It's annoying when you try to engage in a discussion
and others respond by referring to authority figures, rather than
presenting an argument. So I call him Clueless Joe. :-)


26 Feb 2004 16:44:40
Perry Sailor
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?


"Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.1aa84bd934b8c7af989d48@news.individual.net...
> In article <c1lq7b$hpn$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
> perry.sailor@ReMoVeThIscolorado.edu says...
> >
> > "Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net...
> > > In article <c1jj4t$oof$1@reader2.panix.com>, kahn@nospam.panix.com
> > > says...
> >
> > > hasn't happened. I think it's up to Clueless Joe to put ARod as SS,
> >
> > Clueless Joe? Man, that's cold. I take it he won't be getting your HOF
> > vote, then?
> > Perry
>

(snip reasons)

> I call him "Clueless Joe" regularly in the Yankees newsgroup, because
> sometimes when I'm having a discussion with people about various things
> (namely those I listed above), some will respond "But Torre does it..."
> and I hate that. It's annoying when you try to engage in a discussion
> and others respond by referring to authority figures, rather than
> presenting an argument. So I call him Clueless Joe. :-)

Fair enough. I never thought of him as a brilliant tactical mind or
anything, but he seems like a prince of a guy and I certainly respect what
he's done with the Yankees, so it was a little shocking to see him referred
to as if he were Pat Corrales or something. :-)
Perry




26 Feb 2004 23:37:52
Ron Matthews
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

Kenny1111 <kcyanks1@hotmail.com > wrote:

> I call him "Clueless Joe" regularly in the Yankees newsgroup,
> because sometimes when I'm having a discussion with people about
> various things (namely those I listed above), some will respond
> "But Torre does it..." and I hate that. It's annoying when you
> try to engage in a discussion and others respond by referring to
> authority figures, rather than presenting an argument. So I call
> him Clueless Joe. :-)

Meanwhile "Clueless Joe" doesn't refer to you at all.

Only imbeciles argue with success sweetie.

cordially, as always,

rm


26 Feb 2004 21:15:00
Kenny1111
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

In article <c1m0d9$407$1@peabody.colorado.edu >,
perry.sailor@ReMoVeThIscolorado.edu says...
>
> "Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1aa84bd934b8c7af989d48@news.individual.net...
> > In article <c1lq7b$hpn$1@peabody.colorado.edu>,
> > perry.sailor@ReMoVeThIscolorado.edu says...
> > >
> > > "Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.1aa81b28f6a52f3989d46@news.individual.net...
> > > > In article <c1jj4t$oof$1@reader2.panix.com>, kahn@nospam.panix.com
> > > > says...
> > >
> > > > hasn't happened. I think it's up to Clueless Joe to put ARod as SS,
> > >
> > > Clueless Joe? Man, that's cold. I take it he won't be getting your HOF
> > > vote, then?
> > > Perry
> >
>
> (snip reasons)
>
> > I call him "Clueless Joe" regularly in the Yankees newsgroup, because
> > sometimes when I'm having a discussion with people about various things
> > (namely those I listed above), some will respond "But Torre does it..."
> > and I hate that. It's annoying when you try to engage in a discussion
> > and others respond by referring to authority figures, rather than
> > presenting an argument. So I call him Clueless Joe. :-)
>
> Fair enough. I never thought of him as a brilliant tactical mind or
> anything, but he seems like a prince of a guy and I certainly respect what
> he's done with the Yankees, so it was a little shocking to see him referred
> to as if he were Pat Corrales or something. :-)
> Perry

Unfortunately I don't know who Corrales is, but I can get your point..
Had the NY Post never had that headline back in the 95-96 off-season, I
probably never would have used it. And Torre does seem like a great
guy, and I think that's why players want to play with him. He can be
nice, friendly, and Clueless all at the same time :-) (I am a diehard
Yankees fan, btw, in case you didn't know already.)


27 Feb 2004 04:22:22
Corby Gilmore
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

David Foss (FossDavidR@aol.com) writes:
> ai750@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Corby Gilmore) wrote in message news:<c1jlel$5oj$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>...
>> guanxi (guanxi_i@yahoo.com) writes:
>> > Assuming A-Rod fields the position very well (which I expect,
>> > considering he was a good SS), who would you want at 3B? Schmidt?
>> > A-Rod?
>> >
>> > Personally, I say Schmidt's done it over a whole career, but it's not
>> > an easy answer.
>>
>> ARod wasnt even the greatest SHORTSTOP ever, (does the name Honus Wagner
>> ring a bell?), and already you are comparing him to Mike Schmidt? No
>> matter what ARod does in 2004 it is nonsensical in my opinion to start
>> discussing him in terms of "greatest 3B ever" after only 1 season at the
>> position.
>
> Well, Honus sets the bar a little higher than Mike does. I don't
> think A-Rod ever had a chance to match Wagner's level of dominance.
>
> How do A-Rod's hitting numbers compare with the hitting numbers of the
> all-time great 3B-men?

Your question is premature. A-Rod has no hitting numbers as a 3B-man,
because A-Rod has yet to actually play 3B in a regular season game. All
the numbers that he has put up to date were achieved as a shortstop, so
to compare them to those of other 3B-men would be pointless.
--
Corby Gilmore
corby@ncf.ca


27 Feb 2004 13:33:45
Perry Sailor
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?


"Kenny1111" <kcyanks1@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.1aa8722e1bf48c16989d4b@news.individual.net...
> > he's done with the Yankees, so it was a little shocking to see him
referred
> > to as if he were Pat Corrales or something. :-)
> > Perry
>
> Unfortunately I don't know who Corrales is, but I can get your point..
> Had the NY Post never had that headline back in the 95-96 off-season, I
> probably never would have used it. And Torre does seem like a great
> guy, and I think that's why players want to play with him. He can be
> nice, friendly, and Clueless all at the same time :-) (I am a diehard
> Yankees fan, btw, in case you didn't know already.)

Corrales managed the Rangers, Phillies, and Indians in the 70s and 80s; I
think he was most recently a coach with the Braves, maybe even last year.
When Bill James did manager ratings in one of the Abstracts, he said of
Corrales "It is said he has the personality of a Doberman pinscher; would be
a better manager if he had the Doberman's intelligence." (Or so he told me.
The legal folks made him change the last part to "..if he were more
knowledgeable.")

Perry




28 Feb 2004 23:14:53
Kevingr
Re: Greatest 3B ever - A-Rod?

Regina Litman <rslitman@infi.net > wrote in message news:<403D4C86.10000@infi.net>...
> Cameron Laird wrote:
>
> [referring to Mike Schmidt]
>
> >
> > ... who himself was a college All-American at short, and
> > who played a couple of dozen games there in the majors.
>
[cut]
> A large number of the basemen-infielders and the outfielders (and even a
> few catchers, such as Brandon Inge) were shortstops in their
> pre-professional days and/or in the minors. This is because shortstop
> and pitcher are where a team below the professional level puts its best
> athletes. The only ones who may escape playing short are the lefthanded
> throwers (and this is not 100% guaranteed either - southpaw pitcher
> Kenny Rogers played shortstop as a youth).
>
> A team may draft and sign five shortstops from California, Florida, and
> Texas high schools and colleges, send them all to the same rookie ball
> team, and see them end up at second, third, and all three outfield
> positions, while shortstop is manned by a free agent signee from the
> Dominican Republic.

Thanks. Fascinating information that is new to me as someone who
never played. It would be great to see more excellent posts like this
in r.s.b.

K