29 Jan 2004 13:51:54
Jeff Potter
How to get firm track with homemade setter?

I have a 30"x40"x48" homemade tracksetter. It must weigh about 60
pounds. I pull it with ski forms on the bottom for classic, or remove
them and pull twice around for skating. The result looks pretty BUT DOES
NOT SET UP. The setter will crush down about 6" in 12" of snow. I
thought that much disturbance would result in a trail setting up nicely.
But I guess not. The setter simply is not working.

How to fix this?

Do I need more weight? Putting a kid or two in there would do the trick.
I've done that and it sure is hard to pull. I forget if the resulting
track was better or not, it probably was.

I'm thinking that it might be best to DISTURB the snow. Right now it
only packs, so what I plan to do is set a row of a dozen spike-nails
(head out about 3-4") into the bottom near the front and try that. It
will be harder to pull and probably snag on everything but maybe that's
what it takes. Maybe someone out there knows! Maybe I need disturbers
bigger than nails. Maybe it's a total science thing and there's a
definite answer that some pro will know right offhand. We'll see! Thanks
for any ideas.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923




29 Jan 2004 19:14:06
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

Tracksetter: 60 lb / (30"x40") = 0.05 psi
Skier: 150 lb / (2"x75") = 1 psi

> How to fix this?
... I'd say you need a lot more weight on your tracksetter, or a lot
less weight on your skis :-).

> I've done that and it sure is hard to pull.
... I'd say you need a snowmobile.

In the absence of machine-grooming, packing and tracking is likely an
iterative process involving a lot of pulling, skiing, snow-shoeing,
etc.

Cheers,
Brian


30 Jan 2004 05:21:43
Scott Elliot
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

I don't know about man powered groomers, but with machine groomers you
sometimes have to work new powder snow a few times before it will set up to
make a good track. Maybe you should run a roto-tiller around the track a
few times to beat the air out of the snow. (I have no idea what would
happen.)

Scott Elliot
http://www3.telus.net/selliot/

"Jeff Potter" <jp@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom > wrote in message
news:4019563F.FAA28386@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom...
> I have a 30"x40"x48" homemade tracksetter. It must weigh about 60
> pounds. I pull it with ski forms on the bottom for classic, or remove
> them and pull twice around for skating. The result looks pretty BUT DOES
> NOT SET UP. The setter will crush down about 6" in 12" of snow. I
> thought that much disturbance would result in a trail setting up nicely.
> But I guess not. The setter simply is not working.
>
> How to fix this?
>
> Do I need more weight? Putting a kid or two in there would do the trick.
> I've done that and it sure is hard to pull. I forget if the resulting
> track was better or not, it probably was.
>
> I'm thinking that it might be best to DISTURB the snow. Right now it
> only packs, so what I plan to do is set a row of a dozen spike-nails
> (head out about 3-4") into the bottom near the front and try that. It
> will be harder to pull and probably snag on everything but maybe that's
> what it takes. Maybe someone out there knows! Maybe I need disturbers
> bigger than nails. Maybe it's a total science thing and there's a
> definite answer that some pro will know right offhand. We'll see! Thanks
> for any ideas.
>
> --
>
> Jeff Potter
> ****
> *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
> publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
> ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
> ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
> about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
> ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
> plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923
>
>




30 Jan 2004 03:18:10
Douglas Diehl
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

Hello, I run a small nordic ski center and use only snowmobile
grooming impliments. I have 3 different track setters. They all behave
differently when laying track set. If you are getting quality depth
with the track shoes (metal, or plastic) then probably the reason why
the track falls apart is the type of snow on the trail. Often if we
get some lake effect snow from Ontario it is very light and will not
set a good track set. In fresh snow fall having a weight on the the
track pan is not a big issue. For example a Tidd Tech groomer with no
weight on the track pan will set great track in the right type of new
snow. If your grooming old snow which is hard this is really difficult
to set track. Even the Tidd Tech with weight on the track pan will not
work. This is why YTS's new Ginzo Groomer is the magic bullet for
snowmobile groomers. It is amazing. Tidd Tech ripped off this design
and call theirs a G2. Check out their web sites.


Jeff Potter <jp@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom > wrote in message news:<4019563F.FAA28386@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom>...
> I have a 30"x40"x48" homemade tracksetter. It must weigh about 60
> pounds. I pull it with ski forms on the bottom for classic, or remove
> them and pull twice around for skating. The result looks pretty BUT DOES
> NOT SET UP. The setter will crush down about 6" in 12" of snow. I
> thought that much disturbance would result in a trail setting up nicely.
> But I guess not. The setter simply is not working.
>
> How to fix this?
>
> Do I need more weight? Putting a kid or two in there would do the trick.
> I've done that and it sure is hard to pull. I forget if the resulting
> track was better or not, it probably was.
>
> I'm thinking that it might be best to DISTURB the snow. Right now it
> only packs, so what I plan to do is set a row of a dozen spike-nails
> (head out about 3-4") into the bottom near the front and try that. It
> will be harder to pull and probably snag on everything but maybe that's
> what it takes. Maybe someone out there knows! Maybe I need disturbers
> bigger than nails. Maybe it's a total science thing and there's a
> definite answer that some pro will know right offhand. We'll see! Thanks
> for any ideas.
>
> --
>
> Jeff Potter
> ****
> *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
> publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
> ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
> ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
> about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
> ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
> plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


30 Jan 2004 16:30:24
Marsh Jones
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

Jeff,

This last bout of snow that Minnesota got was so low in moisture content
that it just mushed out from under my groomer. I made several passes
with just snowmobile and the pulling the Tidd to try and pack the air
out. It was still very soft until we'd had the high school team beat
the stuffing out of it for an afternoon. After that we re-groomed and
it set up pretty well. So the moral is compaction. Out of curiosity,
have you thought about running a snowblower over your trail, just
blowing the snow onto the surface? That snow always seems to have 'let
the air out' when it lands.

Marsh Jones


Jeff Potter wrote:
> I have a 30"x40"x48" homemade tracksetter. It must weigh about 60
> pounds. I pull it with ski forms on the bottom for classic, or remove
> them and pull twice around for skating. The result looks pretty BUT DOES
> NOT SET UP. The setter will crush down about 6" in 12" of snow. I
> thought that much disturbance would result in a trail setting up nicely.
> But I guess not. The setter simply is not working.
>
> How to fix this?
>
> Do I need more weight? Putting a kid or two in there would do the trick.
> I've done that and it sure is hard to pull. I forget if the resulting
> track was better or not, it probably was.
>
> I'm thinking that it might be best to DISTURB the snow. Right now it
> only packs, so what I plan to do is set a row of a dozen spike-nails
> (head out about 3-4") into the bottom near the front and try that. It
> will be harder to pull and probably snag on everything but maybe that's
> what it takes. Maybe someone out there knows! Maybe I need disturbers
> bigger than nails. Maybe it's a total science thing and there's a
> definite answer that some pro will know right offhand. We'll see! Thanks
> for any ideas.
>
> --
>
> Jeff Potter
> ****
> *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
> publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
> ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
> ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
> about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
> ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
> plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923
>
>



31 Jan 2004 00:02:54
Pieter Litchfield
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

Mty area of expertise! I have groomed some trail for a couple of years on a
volunteer basis (90 hours last year, 50 hours so far this year) and here are
a couple of observations (all done with a snowmobile):

(1) Always groom. The very first snows of winter must be compacted, or you
will never build a base. I use a piece of culvert 24 in diameter, 6 ft long
with an axle and tongue. (Tidd Tech) No weight. I pack every snowfall.
Even if its too shallow to use a tracksetter or conventional groomer, still
use a packer. A friend made the low cost drag version by lagging a 4x4
inside a piece of culvert, adding eyes into the 4x4 through the culvert, and
a bit of rope. It doesn't roll, but it still packs pretty well.
This is important. You can't start grooming Feb. 1st and expect good
trails. every snow must be compacted at a minimum, even if its only running
a snowmobile over it a few times. You don't have to finish groom, just
insure the frost gets to the ground by compacting all the air out of the
snow.

(2) Let it rest. Sometimes after I pack, the now flattened snow will not
"groom up" and remains too fluffy. Come back in 24 hours and try again. A
cold night or a single freeze/thaw/freeze cycle can make a difference.

(3) Really really cold snow wont work well. I don't even bother to try
at -10F on new powder. Just roll it and go home.

(4) I use a Tidd Tech 4 ft "generation I" model. (note that new this year
is the generation II model). On new cold snow I may do several passes with
the bare groomer (no tracksetter) before any cohesion is obvious. Usually I
do the best I can, then let the public beat it into a glazed mess, then
groom it up and set a track.

(5) I recently have been looking at the "physics" of snow and doing
meaurements of temperatures, trail cover density, and snowfalls. I'm trying
to get a better grasp of the relationships between the variables that give
good skiing conditions. I have looked at the charts for a few snowfalls,
and the measured density of the trails after grooming falls off after a cold
powder snow falls (that's not surprising), and then begins to rise with each
grooming. But it takes several groomings before the density reaches what
can be considered "great" conditions. Since I have only recently begun
this, I haven't worked through warm snowfalls and soggy freeze/thaw cycles,
but I have worked through very cold powder on very cold trails with no day
above 20 F, and I have experienced the same conditions as you have. You're
not doing anything wrong - it's all about the snow!


"Marsh Jones" <marshjones@remove-this-bit.comcast.net > wrote in message
news:AEvSb.142202$Rc4.1137001@attbi_s54...
> Jeff,
>
> This last bout of snow that Minnesota got was so low in moisture content
> that it just mushed out from under my groomer. I made several passes
> with just snowmobile and the pulling the Tidd to try and pack the air
> out. It was still very soft until we'd had the high school team beat
> the stuffing out of it for an afternoon. After that we re-groomed and
> it set up pretty well. So the moral is compaction. Out of curiosity,
> have you thought about running a snowblower over your trail, just
> blowing the snow onto the surface? That snow always seems to have 'let
> the air out' when it lands.
>
> Marsh Jones
>
>
> Jeff Potter wrote:
> > I have a 30"x40"x48" homemade tracksetter. It must weigh about 60
> > pounds. I pull it with ski forms on the bottom for classic, or remove
> > them and pull twice around for skating. The result looks pretty BUT DOES
> > NOT SET UP. The setter will crush down about 6" in 12" of snow. I
> > thought that much disturbance would result in a trail setting up nicely.
> > But I guess not. The setter simply is not working.
> >
> > How to fix this?
> >
> > Do I need more weight? Putting a kid or two in there would do the trick.
> > I've done that and it sure is hard to pull. I forget if the resulting
> > track was better or not, it probably was.
> >
> > I'm thinking that it might be best to DISTURB the snow. Right now it
> > only packs, so what I plan to do is set a row of a dozen spike-nails
> > (head out about 3-4") into the bottom near the front and try that. It
> > will be harder to pull and probably snag on everything but maybe that's
> > what it takes. Maybe someone out there knows! Maybe I need disturbers
> > bigger than nails. Maybe it's a total science thing and there's a
> > definite answer that some pro will know right offhand. We'll see! Thanks
> > for any ideas.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jeff Potter
> > ****
> > *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
> > publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
> > ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
> > ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
> > about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
> > ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
> > plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923
> >
> >
>




01 Feb 2004 18:37:28
Jeff Potter
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

Thanks! Maybe a few ski trips around with my 60# pull-behind setter will do
something. "Keep it packed!" seems like good advice.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923




03 Feb 2004 09:37:46
Bill Cotton
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

Thanks for the question. I have lurched and save the all of the text for use
with my track renewal sled;
http://www.billcotton.com/xc_ski_track_renewal.htm
"Jeff Potter" <jp@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom > wrote in message
news:401D8DB7.979FAF63@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom...
> Thanks! Maybe a few ski trips around with my 60# pull-behind setter will
do
> something. "Keep it packed!" seems like good advice.
>
> --
>
> Jeff Potter
> ****
> *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
> publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
> ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
> ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
> about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
> ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
> plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923
>
>




03 Feb 2004 16:33:49
revyakin
Re: How to get firm track with homemade setter?

I was thinking... it would be cool be able to install a set of tracks
on a regular car, even on a sedan. You could keep the tracks in the
garage, like a set of tires, put them onto your regular car once in a
while (should take ~30 min) and pack the snow.


"Bill Cotton" <Billcotton@comcast.net > wrote in message news:<p_6dnadAXOYOL4LdRVn-jw@comcast.com>...
> Thanks for the question. I have lurched and save the all of the text for use
> with my track renewal sled;
> http://www.billcotton.com/xc_ski_track_renewal.htm
> "Jeff Potter" <jp@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom> wrote in message
> news:401D8DB7.979FAF63@outyourbackdoor.NOSPAMcom...
> > Thanks! Maybe a few ski trips around with my 60# pull-behind setter will
> do
> > something. "Keep it packed!" seems like good advice.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jeff Potter
> > ****
> > *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
> > publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
> > ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
> > ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
> > about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
> > ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
> > plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923
> >
> >