29 May 2007 11:07:19
Paul
What to do with free flowing regulators

My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in the
local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur goes down
to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our regulators
are guaranteed.

I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
apparantly died as a result of this.

Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when you
are going up.

Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
situation better?

Paul




29 May 2007 09:58:33
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 29, 9:07 am, "Paul" <paul_beerk...@hotmail.com > wrote:

> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in the
> local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur goes down
> to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our regulators
> are guaranteed.

Unless it's a salt lake, I'd personally be worried about more than
just the reg freezing up.



29 May 2007 18:21:42
Doh
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Paul wrote:
> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in the
> local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur goes down
> to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our regulators
> are guaranteed.
>
> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
> regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
> apparantly died as a result of this.
>
> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
> free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when you
> are going up.
>
> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
> situation better?
>
> Paul
>
>
Well, two comments really

1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.
So an ascent on a free flow should be more of a drama rather than a crisis.

2)The divers had alternates? (If not , why not).
Alternates are usually tweaked to be less likely to free flow than
primaries (and a harder 'suck') so the odds on the alternates ALSO
failing at the same time as 2 primaries must be very high.
So the quoted buddy pair should surely have at least one/two working
regs as well as the free flows to work from....





29 May 2007 20:10:33
Matthias Voss
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Doh wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>
>> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived
>> in the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake
>> temperatur goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum
>> tempurature at which our regulators are guaranteed.
>>
>> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free
>> flowing regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the
>> surface and apparantly died as a result of this.
>>
>> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
>> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on
>> your watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to
>> hold the free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your
>> bcd when you are going up.
>>
>> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with
>> this situation better?
>>
>> Paul
>>
> Well, two comments really
>
> 1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
> least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.


Heck. CMAS doesn't teach this BS.
We might begin to, when there's enough clients in need to be
taught to talk while chewing gum.

Matthias



29 May 2007 12:06:11
janusz_w@hotmail.com
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On 29 Maj, 20:10, Matthias Voss <spammat.v...@gmx.de > wrote:
> Doh wrote:
> > Paul wrote:
>
> >> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived
> >> in the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake
> >> temperatur goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum
> >> tempurature at which our regulators are guaranteed.
>
> >> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free
> >> flowing regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the
> >> surface and apparantly died as a result of this.
>
> >> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
> >> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on
> >> your watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to
> >> hold the free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your
> >> bcd when you are going up.
>
> >> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with
> >> this situation better?
>
> >> Paul
>
> > Well, two comments really
>
> > 1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
> > least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.
>
> Heck. CMAS doesn't teach this BS.
> We might begin to, when there's enough clients in need to be
> taught to talk while chewing gum.
>
Tssst! Be careful. You almost revealed the chewing gum trick. It's
CMAS official secret.

Janusz



29 May 2007 14:28:37
Paul
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

The problem is not the breathing from the free flowing reg. This is a basic
skill that indeed my wife and myself have practised as part of our Padi
training.

The problem is that this is happening at 120 feet rather than 6 feet in the
training session.

I would be seriously worried about how long the air would last when it is
free flowing taken in account that this might not be happening towards the
end of the dive. Also you can imagine that doing a controlled ascent under
these conditions is vertually impossible.

Both my wife and myself have exactly the same equipment so the change that
if one fails due to environemntal conditions the other will fail as well.

Regarding our alternates. I would imagine if the main reg that is in
constant use freezes the alternate would be frozen as well as that has not
been used during the dive.


"Doh" <doh@microsoft.com > wrote in message
news:5c35pdF2ts1epU1@mid.individual.net...
> Paul wrote:
>> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in
>> the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur
>> goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our
>> regulators are guaranteed.
>>
>> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
>> regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
>> apparantly died as a result of this.
>>
>> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
>> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
>> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
>> free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when
>> you are going up.
>>
>> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
>> situation better?
>>
>> Paul
> Well, two comments really
>
> 1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
> least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.
> So an ascent on a free flow should be more of a drama rather than a
> crisis.
>
> 2)The divers had alternates? (If not , why not).
> Alternates are usually tweaked to be less likely to free flow than
> primaries (and a harder 'suck') so the odds on the alternates ALSO failing
> at the same time as 2 primaries must be very high.
> So the quoted buddy pair should surely have at least one/two working regs
> as well as the free flows to work from....
>
>
>




29 May 2007 14:30:47
ben bradlee
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"Paul" wrote in message news:cJ6dnZ53S9Uk0sHbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@rcn.net...
>
> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
> situation (free flowing regulator) better?

Don't panic.
Start a normal ascent.
Eliminate the safety stop if you run low on air or can't stand the noise.

You can practice what it's like to feel a free flow by pressing the
regulator purge button with the regulator in your mouth under water. You'll
have lots of air looking for some place to go. It's an unusual feeling but
no more. Air will either escape thru the vent holes in the regulator and
out the bubble deflector or out your mouth. If you let the air out your
mouth don't lose the regulator. Breath normally.

More than likely you'll have plenty of air to surface even with a free
flowing regulator. It takes a while to drain a tank. The amount of time is
dependent on the pressure of the tank and how fast the air is leaking. When
a regulator starts to free flow the leak is no more than a perpetual inhale
rate. You just can't stop it. When you hear a pop and have gushing air,
the regulator is giving you about what you feel with the purge button
pressed. Regulators vary somewhat so take that into account. With a full
tank of air you can do a normal dive with a regulator starting to free flow
but it is extremely annoying having constant bubbles. With any rapid free
flow you should immediately end the dive and head for the surface.
Conditions will dictate the exact amount of usable air you have left and you
don't know for sure how long your air will last with air gushing.

You need enough air to surface and inflate your BCD.

If you can reach the shutoff valve on the surface you can stop the free flow
by shutting off the air.

Safety in cold water includes dual first and second stage regulators with
independent shut off valves. This gear configuration will allow the shut
down of a free flowing regulator at any time. It also allows you to switch
to a different regulator if your unit starts to free flow.

You might dive for years and never experience a free flow even in cold
water.




29 May 2007 12:40:13
janusz_w@hotmail.com
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On 29 Maj, 21:28, "Paul" <paul_beerk...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> The problem is not the breathing from the free flowing reg. This is a basic
> skill that indeed my wife and myself have practised as part of our Padi
> training.
>
> The problem is that this is happening at 120 feet rather than 6 feet in the
> training session.
>
> I would be seriously worried about how long the air would last when it is
> free flowing taken in account that this might not be happening towards the
> end of the dive. Also you can imagine that doing a controlled ascent under
> these conditions is vertually impossible.
>
> Both my wife and myself have exactly the same equipment so the change that
> if one fails due to environemntal conditions the other will fail as well.
>
> Regarding our alternates. I would imagine if the main reg that is in
> constant use freezes the alternate would be frozen as well as that has not
> been used during the dive.
>
> "Doh" <d...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5c35pdF2ts1epU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > Paul wrote:
> >> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in
> >> the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur
> >> goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our
> >> regulators are guaranteed.
>
> >> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
> >> regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
> >> apparantly died as a result of this.
>
> >> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
> >> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
> >> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
> >> free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when
> >> you are going up.
>
> >> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
> >> situation better?
>
> >> Paul
> > Well, two comments really
>
> > 1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
> > least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.
> > So an ascent on a free flow should be more of a drama rather than a
> > crisis.
>
> > 2)The divers had alternates? (If not , why not).
> > Alternates are usually tweaked to be less likely to free flow than
> > primaries (and a harder 'suck') so the odds on the alternates ALSO failing
> > at the same time as 2 primaries must be very high.
> > So the quoted buddy pair should surely have at least one/two working regs
> > as well as the free flows to work from....

If you want any piece of sound advice describe us your equipment.


Janusz



29 May 2007 19:43:24
El Stroko Guapo
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Paul wrote:
> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in the
> local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur goes down
> to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our regulators
> are guaranteed.
>
> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
> regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
> apparantly died as a result of this.
>
> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
> free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when you
> are going up.
>
> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
> situation better?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
Here in SoFla we don't have much problem with iced regs, and I
personally refuse to dive where the water is that cold anyway. But -

Remember that a freeflowing reg is still delivering air, just at a
higher rate than expected. There is no reason to shoot to the surface
and die, that's death by panic not by equipment malfunction.

First, you should have a secondary that will deliver sufficient air even
while the primary is freeflowing.

The problem with breathing a freeflowing reg is that our lungs are very
weak, and don't tolerate the pressures that a freeflowing reg can
produce (in theory, ambient + 140 psi). The problem is not that we can't
inhale, it is that we can't exhale.

In practice, most of the potential over-pressure is relieved by the
reg's exhaust ports, which are very large, and the capacity of the
demand valve. You do have to relieve some of the over-pressure. The
simplest way to do this is just open yer mouth, maybe partially remove
the mouthpiece, until there is enough air rushing into yer mouth to
breathe (somewhat) normally and (reasonably) comfortably, but no
pressure seal to over-expand yer lungs and prevent exhaling. Inhale
slowly and carefully and you will get very little water in. Remove the
reg completely to exhale, if necessary.

Although the bubbling looks ferocious, it will (depending on remaining
tank contents) continue long enough to make a normal ascent from almost
any depth and probably make a safety stop to boot.

You can practice this situation by just depressing the purge button all
the way. No free-flow will exceed this flow rate.

Remember that a free-flowing reg in ice conditions makes the icing
worse, so come to SoFla to practice.

esg



29 May 2007 15:27:06
Paul
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Thanks. Great advice.

"ben bradlee" <NoWay@Way.Bite.Me > wrote in message
news:eM2dnZOD3KXF4sHbnZ2dnUVZ_revnZ2d@centurytel.net...
>
> "Paul" wrote in message news:cJ6dnZ53S9Uk0sHbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@rcn.net...
>>
>> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
>> situation (free flowing regulator) better?
>
> Don't panic.
> Start a normal ascent.
> Eliminate the safety stop if you run low on air or can't stand the noise.
>
> You can practice what it's like to feel a free flow by pressing the
> regulator purge button with the regulator in your mouth under water.
> You'll have lots of air looking for some place to go. It's an unusual
> feeling but no more. Air will either escape thru the vent holes in the
> regulator and out the bubble deflector or out your mouth. If you let the
> air out your mouth don't lose the regulator. Breath normally.
>
> More than likely you'll have plenty of air to surface even with a free
> flowing regulator. It takes a while to drain a tank. The amount of time
> is dependent on the pressure of the tank and how fast the air is leaking.
> When a regulator starts to free flow the leak is no more than a perpetual
> inhale rate. You just can't stop it. When you hear a pop and have
> gushing air, the regulator is giving you about what you feel with the
> purge button pressed. Regulators vary somewhat so take that into account.
> With a full tank of air you can do a normal dive with a regulator starting
> to free flow but it is extremely annoying having constant bubbles. With
> any rapid free flow you should immediately end the dive and head for the
> surface. Conditions will dictate the exact amount of usable air you have
> left and you don't know for sure how long your air will last with air
> gushing.
>
> You need enough air to surface and inflate your BCD.
>
> If you can reach the shutoff valve on the surface you can stop the free
> flow by shutting off the air.
>
> Safety in cold water includes dual first and second stage regulators with
> independent shut off valves. This gear configuration will allow the shut
> down of a free flowing regulator at any time. It also allows you to
> switch to a different regulator if your unit starts to free flow.
>
> You might dive for years and never experience a free flow even in cold
> water.
>




29 May 2007 17:23:03
Dan Bracuk
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

"Paul" <paul_beerkens@hotmail.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in the
:local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur goes down
:to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our regulators
:are guaranteed.
:
:I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
:regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
:apparantly died as a result of this.
:
:Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
:better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
:watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
:free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when you
:are going up.
:
:Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
:situation better?

I've had regs freeze up and free flow, more than once in fact. My
experience is,

a free flowing reg will stay in your mouth quite nicely. You don't
need to hold it in place with your hand.

if you are looking at your gauges, you will be able to see them. the
bubbles go somewhere else, up I think. In fact, unless you are
looking up, you won't notice the bubbles.

at least not visually. free flowing regs are loud.

what I found was the best way to prevent free flow was to get the regs
into the water as quickly as possible. the water is probably warmer
than the air. also, put the reg into your mouth while the reg is
underwater, and don't let it come back above water until the dive is
over.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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29 May 2007 17:22:17
Grumman-581
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On 29 May 2007 09:58:33 -0700, Greg Mossman <mossman@qnet.com > wrote:

> Unless it's a salt lake, I'd personally be worried about more than
> just the reg freezing up.

Yeah, if it's fresh water and he's getting 30F temperatures at 120 ft,
he's in a deep frozen block of ice and a frozen reg is the least of
his worries...


29 May 2007 22:38:49
ajtessier
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

If you and your wife are diving to 120 feet in 30 degree water you should
both have independent redundant cold water systems. There are also free flow
control devices that allow you to turn off a free flowing regulator. Also
you never told us what equipment you are using, some equipment is much
better suited to cold water than others.

Al
Bottoms Up Divers

"Paul" <paul_beerkens@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:dZedncVOFJV148HbnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@rcn.net...
> The problem is not the breathing from the free flowing reg. This is a
> basic
> skill that indeed my wife and myself have practised as part of our Padi
> training.
>
> The problem is that this is happening at 120 feet rather than 6 feet in
> the
> training session.
>
> I would be seriously worried about how long the air would last when it is
> free flowing taken in account that this might not be happening towards the
> end of the dive. Also you can imagine that doing a controlled ascent under
> these conditions is vertually impossible.
>
> Both my wife and myself have exactly the same equipment so the change that
> if one fails due to environemntal conditions the other will fail as well.
>
> Regarding our alternates. I would imagine if the main reg that is in
> constant use freezes the alternate would be frozen as well as that has not
> been used during the dive.
>
>
> "Doh" <doh@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:5c35pdF2ts1epU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Paul wrote:
>>> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in
>>> the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur
>>> goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which
>>> our regulators are guaranteed.
>>>
>>> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free
>>> flowing regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the
>>> surface and apparantly died as a result of this.
>>>
>>> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
>>> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
>>> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold
>>> the free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd
>>> when you are going up.
>>>
>>> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with
>>> this situation better?
>>>
>>> Paul
>> Well, two comments really
>>
>> 1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
>> least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.
>> So an ascent on a free flow should be more of a drama rather than a
>> crisis.
>>
>> 2)The divers had alternates? (If not , why not).
>> Alternates are usually tweaked to be less likely to free flow than
>> primaries (and a harder 'suck') so the odds on the alternates ALSO
>> failing at the same time as 2 primaries must be very high.
>> So the quoted buddy pair should surely have at least one/two working regs
>> as well as the free flows to work from....
>>
>>
>>
>
>




30 May 2007 09:06:59
dechucka
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"Paul" <paul_beerkens@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:cJ6dnZ53S9Uk0sHbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@rcn.net...
> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in
> the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur goes
> down to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our
> regulators are guaranteed.


Why are you doing this dive? What is so good down there that you want to see
it at that time of year?




30 May 2007 01:08:03
Doh
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Matthias Voss wrote:
> Doh wrote:
>> Paul wrote:
>>
>>> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived
>>> in the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake
>>> temperatur goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum
>>> tempurature at which our regulators are guaranteed.
>>>
>>> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free
>>> flowing regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the
>>> surface and apparantly died as a result of this.
>>>
>>> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
>>> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on
>>> your watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to
>>> hold the free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate
>>> your bcd when you are going up.
>>>
>>> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with
>>> this situation better?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>> Well, two comments really
>>
>> 1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
>> least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.
>
>
> Heck. CMAS doesn't teach this BS.
> We might begin to, when there's enough clients in need to be taught to
> talk while chewing gum.
>
> Matthias
>
You teeach them to spit the reg out and chew gum all the way to the surface?
Ahh, blow big bubble - suck it back in - blow big bubble - repeat.
Only 20 big chews to the surface?





30 May 2007 10:04:14
Matthias Voss
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Doh wrote:

> Matthias Voss wrote:
>
>> Doh wrote:
>>
>>> Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived
>>>> in the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake
>>>> temperatur goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum
>>>> tempurature at which our regulators are guaranteed.
>>>>
>>>> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free
>>>> flowing regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the
>>>> surface and apparantly died as a result of this.
>>>>
>>>> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation
>>>> any better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed
>>>> on your watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand
>>>> anyway to hold the free flowing regulator in place and the other to
>>>> deflate your bcd when you are going up.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with
>>>> this situation better?
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>> Well, two comments really
>>>
>>> 1) Padi at least teaches you to breathe off a free flowing reg for at
>>> least 30 seconds - I'm sure the other agencies do as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Heck. CMAS doesn't teach this BS.
>> We might begin to, when there's enough clients in need to be taught to
>> talk while chewing gum.
>>
>> Matthias
>>
> You teeach them to spit the reg out and chew gum all the way to the
> surface?
> Ahh, blow big bubble - suck it back in - blow big bubble - repeat.
> Only 20 big chews to the surface?

We teach to blow toroidal bubbles with integrated check
valves. You get the swing?

Matthias

PS: Nose is included as well, so you can use your brain as a
scrubber



30 May 2007 13:41:32
Chris Guynn
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"ajtessier" <ajtessier@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:ZX17i.37452$Sa4.30236@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> If you and your wife are diving to 120 feet in 30 degree water you should
> both have independent redundant cold water systems.

And ice picks.




30 May 2007 07:06:36
ajames54@hotmail.com
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 29, 6:22 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-
gmail.com > wrote:
> On 29 May 2007 09:58:33 -0700, Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Unless it's a salt lake, I'd personally be worried about more than
> > just the reg freezing up.
>
> Yeah, if it's fresh water and he's getting 30F temperatures at 120 ft,
> he's in a deep frozen block of ice and a frozen reg is the least of
> his worries...

at 120 feet the pressure should keep water liquid at 30F

that being said how low would the air have to be that you would not be
able to ascend while breathing through the reg even in free flow?



30 May 2007 16:09:26
Matthias Voss
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

ajames54@hotmail.com wrote:

> On May 29, 6:22 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-
> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 29 May 2007 09:58:33 -0700, Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Unless it's a salt lake, I'd personally be worried about more than
>>>just the reg freezing up.
>>
>>Yeah, if it's fresh water and he's getting 30F temperatures at 120 ft,
>>he's in a deep frozen block of ice and a frozen reg is the least of
>>his worries...
>
>
> at 120 feet the pressure should keep water liquid at 30F

Interesting ;-)

Matthias



30 May 2007 08:11:16
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 30, 7:06=C2=A0am, "ajame...@hotmail.com" <ajame...@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> On May 29, 6:22 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-
>
> gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 29 May 2007 09:58:33 -0700, Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> wrote:
>
> > > Unless it's a salt lake, I'd personally be worried about more than
> > > just the reg freezing up.
>
> > Yeah, if it's fresh water and he's getting 30F temperatures at 120 ft,
> > he's in a deep frozen block of ice and a frozen reg is the least of
> > his worries...
>
> =C2=A0at 120 feet the pressure should keep water liquid at 30F

But how is it getting to 30F when it's constantly replenished with 4C
water sinking from the surface until the lake is completely frozen?

"Water chilled at the surface increases in density and sinks, forming
convection currents that cool the whole water body, but when the
temperature of the lake water reaches 4 =C2=B0C, water on the surface
decreases in density as it chills further and remains as a surface
layer which eventually freezes and forms ice. Since downward
convection of colder water is blocked by the density change, any large
body of fresh water frozen in winter will have the coldest water near
the surface, away from the riverbed or lakebed. This accounts for
various little known phenomena of ice characteristics as they relate
to ice in lakes and "ice falling out of lakes" as described by early
20th century scientist Horatio D. Craft."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(molecule)

There are certainly exceptions. For example:

"The average water temperature is around =E2=88=923 =C2=B0C; it remains liq=
uid
below the normal freezing point because of high pressure from the
weight of the ice above it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vostok

But that's a 3km thickness of ice creating the pressure. Is the OP
going icediving after cutting a hole 3km deep?

> that being said how low would the air have to be that you would not be
> able to ascend while breathing through the reg even in free flow?

How many bubbles must there be before they block someone from "reading
his watch" thereby causing the OP to ascend too quickly?

This thread confused me in lots of ways.




30 May 2007 08:13:05
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 30, 6:41 am, "Chris Guynn" <chris.gu...@gmail.com > wrote:
> "ajtessier" <ajtess...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ZX17i.37452$Sa4.30236@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> > If you and your wife are diving to 120 feet in 30 degree water you should
> > both have independent redundant cold water systems.
>
> And ice picks.

The big question is whether freediving fins provide better propulsion
than split fins when swimming through ice.

At least current won't be a problem.



30 May 2007 16:24:07
Doh
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Greg Mossman wrote:
> On May 30, 6:41 am, "Chris Guynn" <chris.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "ajtessier" <ajtess...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:ZX17i.37452$Sa4.30236@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>>> If you and your wife are diving to 120 feet in 30 degree water you should
>>> both have independent redundant cold water systems.
>> And ice picks.
>
> The big question is whether freediving fins provide better propulsion
> than split fins when swimming through ice.
>
> At least current won't be a problem.
>
Isn't that where they say 'That guy is so clumbsy, he has no Fin ice"


30 May 2007 11:22:44
ajames54@hotmail.com
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 30, 11:11 am, Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com > wrote:
> On May 30, 7:06 am, "ajame...@hotmail.com" <ajame...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On May 29, 6:22 pm, Grumman-581 <grumman...@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-
>
> > gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 29 May 2007 09:58:33 -0700, Greg Mossman <moss...@qnet.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Unless it's a salt lake, I'd personally be worried about more than
> > > > just the reg freezing up.
>
> > > Yeah, if it's fresh water and he's getting 30F temperatures at 120 ft,
> > > he's in a deep frozen block of ice and a frozen reg is the least of
> > > his worries...
>
> > at 120 feet the pressure should keep water liquid at 30F
>
> But how is it getting to 30F when it's constantly replenished with 4C
> water sinking from the surface until the lake is completely frozen?
>
> "Water chilled at the surface increases in density and sinks, forming
> convection currents that cool the whole water body, but when the
> temperature of the lake water reaches 4 =B0C, water on the surface


Ah! An excellent point and well spotted.. I wonder what sort of
Bizzare Geothermal anomaly could be causing that? or should that be
GEOEXOTHERMAL?

I would like to dive that lake just to see.. despite the risk or my
reg freezing

>
> This thread confused me in lots of ways.





30 May 2007 11:45:37
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 30, 11:22 am, "ajame...@hotmail.com" <ajame...@hotmail.com >
wrote:

> Ah! An excellent point and well spotted.. I wonder what sort of
> Bizzare Geothermal anomaly could be causing that? or should that be
> GEOEXOTHERMAL?
>
> I would like to dive that lake just to see.. despite the risk or my
> reg freezing

Not me, but not because I'm worried about my reg freezing. I'm
worried about me freezing.



30 May 2007 15:11:31
Grumman-581
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On 30 May 2007 11:22:44 -0700, "ajames54@hotmail.com"
<ajames54@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Ah! An excellent point and well spotted.. I wonder what sort of
> Bizzare Geothermal anomaly could be causing that? or should that be
> GEOEXOTHERMAL?
>
> I would like to dive that lake just to see.. despite the risk or my
> reg freezing

Either he was diving in a solid block of deep frozen ice or his
thermometer was not accurate...

With regards to pressure differences in the freezing point of water,
this web page has a calculator that will allow you to vary the
salinity and the pressure:

http://www.csgnetwork.com/h2ofreezecalc.html

At 120 ft, we're looking at 54.45 psi... Assuming a salinity of 0 PSU,
the freezing point would be 31.501F... For the water to be 30F at 120
ft, it would need a salinity of 15.4 PSU... Normal sea water has a
salinity of approxmiately 33-37 PSU...

http://iodeweb5.vliz.be/oceanteacher/index.php?module=contextview&action=contextdownload&id=gen11Srv32Nme37_44

At normal atmospheric pressures, the Great Salt Lake will freeze at
around 11.8F and the Dead Sea at -6F due to their considerably higher
PSU values...


30 May 2007 15:22:49
Paul
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Ok, maybe the lake temp was only 31.502F then.


"Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-gmail.com > wrote in message
news:4lkr539hq3198abodoal181ip21nrnq4iq@4ax.com...
> On 30 May 2007 11:22:44 -0700, "ajames54@hotmail.com"
> <ajames54@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Ah! An excellent point and well spotted.. I wonder what sort of
>> Bizzare Geothermal anomaly could be causing that? or should that be
>> GEOEXOTHERMAL?
>>
>> I would like to dive that lake just to see.. despite the risk or my
>> reg freezing
>
> Either he was diving in a solid block of deep frozen ice or his
> thermometer was not accurate...
>
> With regards to pressure differences in the freezing point of water,
> this web page has a calculator that will allow you to vary the
> salinity and the pressure:
>
> http://www.csgnetwork.com/h2ofreezecalc.html
>
> At 120 ft, we're looking at 54.45 psi... Assuming a salinity of 0 PSU,
> the freezing point would be 31.501F... For the water to be 30F at 120
> ft, it would need a salinity of 15.4 PSU... Normal sea water has a
> salinity of approxmiately 33-37 PSU...
>
> http://iodeweb5.vliz.be/oceanteacher/index.php?module=contextview&action=contextdownload&id=gen11Srv32Nme37_44
>
> At normal atmospheric pressures, the Great Salt Lake will freeze at
> around 11.8F and the Dead Sea at -6F due to their considerably higher
> PSU values...




30 May 2007 23:47:47
Grumman-581
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:22:49 -0500, "Paul" <paul_beerkens@hotmail.com >
wrote:

> Ok, maybe the lake temp was only 31.502F then.

Cold enough to get frostbite on your 'nads...


31 May 2007 05:23:38
greg
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 29, 11:07 am, "Paul" <paul_beerk...@hotmail.com > wrote:

Paul,

You've heard from other folks about methods to deal with a free
flowing regulator. If you are a PADI trained diver, you know how to
breath from a free flowing reg and you know the accent process.

Some other observations:

Gas management: If you suspect a problem with the
regulator, then modify your dive profile so you have an adequate
reserve near the end of the dive to handle a normal accent during a
free flowing regulator event.

Proper Equipment: An overriding factor to consider
before any dive and and a variation on a piece of advice you heard in
your PADI course. If you have equipment that is not designed for the
intended environment or the dive, then you owe to yourself and your
buddy to either obtain the proper equipment or forgo the dive.

Using Secondary Air Source: While that is an option,
remember that you will drain the tank faster. Under this scenario,
you are breathing from the secondary source while the primary is
letting air flow to its heart's content. It may not seem like much of
a difference. But, it nonetheless represents an increase in gas
consumption.

Regards,

Greg




31 May 2007 08:44:20
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On May 31, 5:23 am, greg <gspey...@cox.net > wrote:

> You've heard from other folks about methods to deal with a free
> flowing regulator. If you are a PADI trained diver, you know how to
> breath from a free flowing reg and you know the accent process.

Of course. The accent is on the A. Even non-PADI divers know that.

> Gas management: If you suspect a problem with the
> regulator, then modify your dive profile so you have an adequate
> reserve near the end of the dive to handle a normal accent during a
> free flowing regulator event.

That's fine and dandy. Now how do you "suspect" a problem before the
problem happens? Are you telling him to leave an adequate reserve
every time he dives in cold water? Isn't that what the 500 psi
reserve, as taught by PADI, covers anyway?

Or are you saying that if the regulator starts to malfunction during
the dive, complete the dive anyway, but leave a reserve? That's not
too wise.



31 May 2007 14:27:57
Lee Bell
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

>> You've heard from other folks about methods to deal with a free
>> flowing regulator. If you are a PADI trained diver, you know how to
>> breath from a free flowing reg and you know the accent process.

Pardon us if we don't take your word for it. We know PADI divers who don't
even know how to assemble their equipment, can't clear their masks
consistently, and haven't a clue what the word buoyancy means. Of course we
know divers from other agencies that are much the same, but you're the only
one claiming that an association with your agency makes knowledge a sure
thing.

>> Gas management: If you suspect a problem with the
>> regulator, then modify your dive profile so you have an adequate
>> reserve near the end of the dive to handle a normal accent during a
>> free flowing regulator event.
Greg Mossman wrote

> That's fine and dandy. Now how do you "suspect" a problem before the
> problem happens? Are you telling him to leave an adequate reserve
> every time he dives in cold water? Isn't that what the 500 psi
> reserve, as taught by PADI, covers anyway?

> Or are you saying that if the regulator starts to malfunction during
> the dive, complete the dive anyway, but leave a reserve? That's not
> too wise.

What Greg said. Yes, that's a "me too." Greg, how did we get on the same
side of an issue?

Lee




01 Jun 2007 13:08:30
Sheldon
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"Paul" <paul_beerkens@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:cJ6dnZ53S9Uk0sHbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@rcn.net...
> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in
> the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur goes
> down to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our
> regulators are guaranteed.
>
> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
> regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
> apparantly died as a result of this.
>
> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
> free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when you
> are going up.
>
> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
> situation better?
>
> Paul
I've been following this thread. Interesting, but since diving is supposed
to be fun, why would anyone want to dive in 30 degree water unless there was
"REALLY" something interesting down there? Give anyone a free diving trip
and I guarantee you that a 30 degree lake will not be at the top of their
list.




01 Jun 2007 14:41:37
ben bradlee
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net > wrote in message
news:v9mdnR87crTV8v3bnZ2dnUVZ_oCmnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> I've been following ... "REALLY" something interesting ...

and I did it with my mind tightly closed.




01 Jun 2007 17:41:09
Dan Bracuk
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

"Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:I've been following this thread. Interesting, but since diving is supposed
:to be fun, why would anyone want to dive in 30 degree water unless there was
:"REALLY" something interesting down there? Give anyone a free diving trip
:and I guarantee you that a 30 degree lake will not be at the top of their
:list.

In my case, it was better than sitting around the house and the lake
was a two minute drive away.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


01 Jun 2007 21:55:20
Magilla
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"Sheldon" wrote

> I've been following this thread. Interesting, but since diving is
> supposed to be fun, why would anyone want to dive in 30 degree water
> unless there was "REALLY" something interesting down there? Give anyone a
> free diving trip and I guarantee you that a 30 degree lake will not be at
> the top of their list.

Might really surprise you what type of diving makes the top of some
lists.

We all have our own ideas of fun, and are not always in agreement with
what that is.

Curtis




01 Jun 2007 16:43:26
Sheldon
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"Dan Bracuk" <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com > wrote in message
news:448163dr815ebbntr2m42nac6c88iuqeq4@4ax.com...
> "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :I've been following this thread. Interesting, but since diving is
> supposed
> :to be fun, why would anyone want to dive in 30 degree water unless there
> was
> :"REALLY" something interesting down there? Give anyone a free diving
> trip
> :and I guarantee you that a 30 degree lake will not be at the top of their
> :list.
>
> In my case, it was better than sitting around the house and the lake
> was a two minute drive away.
>
> Dan Bracuk
> If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
>

Okay. I'll admit that I'm surrounded by freezing lakes and warmer climates
and reefs are a long plane flight away.




01 Jun 2007 21:26:47
Lee Bell
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Sheldon wrote

> Okay. I'll admit that I'm surrounded by freezing lakes and warmer
> climates and reefs are a long plane flight away.

Me too. I think the temperature in the lake behind the house is all the way
down to the high 70s, clearly too cold for any normal human.

Lee




02 Jun 2007 17:56:44
Limey
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators


"Dan Bracuk" <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com > wrote in message
news:448163dr815ebbntr2m42nac6c88iuqeq4@4ax.com...
> "Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :I've been following this thread. Interesting, but since diving is
> supposed
> :to be fun, why would anyone want to dive in 30 degree water unless there
> was
> :"REALLY" something interesting down there? Give anyone a free diving
> trip
> :and I guarantee you that a 30 degree lake will not be at the top of their
> :list.
>
> In my case, it was better than sitting around the house and the lake
> was a two minute drive away.
>
>
I don't get accused of being boring very often, but dayum.....the couch
wins!

Better yet, haven't they got those kayak thingies up thar yet? You could
shove a nice little space heater down in between yer knees.

LD.




02 Jun 2007 20:10:06
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On Jun 1, 6:26 pm, "Lee Bell" <pleeb...@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> Sheldon wrote
>
> > Okay. I'll admit that I'm surrounded by freezing lakes and warmer
> > climates and reefs are a long plane flight away.
>
> Me too. I think the temperature in the lake behind the house is all the way
> down to the high 70s, clearly too cold for any normal human.

That's sick. Can't you install a pool heater? I don't dare dip in my
pool unless it's heated to 87.



02 Jun 2007 23:40:27
Lee Bell
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Greg Mossman wrote

>> > Okay. I'll admit that I'm surrounded by freezing lakes and warmer
>> > climates and reefs are a long plane flight away.

>> Me too. I think the temperature in the lake behind the house is all the
>> way
>> down to the high 70s, clearly too cold for any normal human.

> That's sick. Can't you install a pool heater? I don't dare dip in my
> pool unless it's heated to 87.

I tried to get the homeowner's association to OK one, but they declined,
saying something about the cost of fuel.

Lee




03 Jun 2007 18:39:02
Paul
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

We have not been able to go away for a tropical diving holiday for the last
18 months. My 2 options are cold water or no diving.

I am not entirely convinced that it really gets that cold in lake Michigan
but the guy I am going to do the dive master course with said it gets that
cold. It definitly gets cold enough for people to get into trouble with free
flowing regulators.

If I could choose I would be diving in Thailand right now.

"Sheldon" <sheldon@XXXXXXXXsopris.net > wrote in message
news:v9mdnR87crTV8v3bnZ2dnUVZ_oCmnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Paul" <paul_beerkens@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cJ6dnZ53S9Uk0sHbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@rcn.net...
>> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in
>> the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur
>> goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our
>> regulators are guaranteed.
>>
>> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
>> regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
>> apparantly died as a result of this.
>>
>> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
>> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
>> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
>> free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when
>> you are going up.
>>
>> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
>> situation better?
>>
>> Paul
> I've been following this thread. Interesting, but since diving is
> supposed to be fun, why would anyone want to dive in 30 degree water
> unless there was "REALLY" something interesting down there? Give anyone a
> free diving trip and I guarantee you that a 30 degree lake will not be at
> the top of their list.
>




03 Jun 2007 20:32:12
greg
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Greg,


Thanks for catching the typo on the word 'ascent'.


> > Gas management: . . .
>
> That's fine and dandy. Now how do you "suspect" a problem before the
> problem happens? Are you telling him to leave an adequate reserve
> every time he dives in cold water? Isn't that what the 500 psi
> reserve, as taught by PADI, covers anyway?
>
> Or are you saying that if the regulator starts to malfunction during
> the dive, complete the dive anyway, but leave a reserve? That's not
> too wise.

Paul mentions in his original email that his regulator is not
certified to operate as expected at the low temperatures in the lake:

(Paul's statement) "The lake temperature goes down to 30F
which is lower than our minimum temperature at which our regulators
are guaranteed."

Paul also recounts the story of an unfortunate buddy team that
died from problems associated with a free flowing regulator.

From his statements, it appears that Paul believes that he may
experience a free flowing regulator due to diving in water with a
temperature colder than his regulator is designed to function.

As such, if a person suspects a specific issue - as Paul does -
then it would be good for him to take actions to either minimize or
eliminate the risk. In this case, not considering any other standards
and focusing solely on gas management relative to what Paul's feels is
a possibility worth considering, it would be wise for him to bank more
than 500 psi in reserve in case he has a free flow issue.

With regard to the question about continuing the dive with a
malfunctioning regulator, as you stated it is not too wise. I would
not suggest that anyone continue a dive with that condition.

I would also ask that everyone please consider item (2) in my
original post (Proper Equipment)
" An overriding factor to consider before any dive and and a
variation on a piece of advice you heard in your PADI course. If you
have equipment that is not designed for the intended environment or
the dive, then you owe to yourself and your buddy to either obtain
the proper equipment or forgo the dive."

In Paul's specific instance, if he suspects that his equipment is
ill-suited for such water temperatures, then he should either get the
proper equipment, or not do the dive.


Thanks,

Greg







03 Jun 2007 20:51:49
greg
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Lee,

You're correct. It's not a sure thing that folks will have the
knowledge or skills when the time comes to use it.

In Paul's case - and I don't personally know the gentleman - I'm
making an assumption that he has such knowledge. Paul will have to
answer that one.

I would also agree with you that there are certified divers from a
lot of agencies (PADI included) that have knowledge and skill gaps -
big and small.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Paul was shown how
to deal with a free flowing regulator in his course. If he hasn't
then he needs to file a complaint with PADI. It is a skill that PADI
instructors are supposed to teach - at least today and in several
years past.

Thanks,

Greg



04 Jun 2007 08:27:33
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On Jun 3, 8:32 pm, greg <gspey...@cox.net > wrote:

> From his statements, it appears that Paul believes that he may
> experience a free flowing regulator due to diving in water with a
> temperature colder than his regulator is designed to function.
>
> As such, if a person suspects a specific issue - as Paul does -
> then it would be good for him to take actions to either minimize or
> eliminate the risk. In this case, not considering any other standards
> and focusing solely on gas management relative to what Paul's feels is
> a possibility worth considering, it would be wise for him to bank more
> than 500 psi in reserve in case he has a free flow issue.

No, that's completely stupid. The correct response is to stay out of
the frigid water until he has the right gear. Period.

I don't dive in 30F water [sic] with a 3mm suit because I "suspect" I
would get too cold. I don't plan a 2-hour dive on a single AL80
because I "suspect" the air won't last. And I don't dive in 30F water
[sic] on a regulator that's not designed or adapted to handle cold
water diving.

If you don't have the right gear for the dive, don't make the dive.
It's as simple as that. No "reserve" necessary.

> " An overriding factor to consider before any dive and and a
> variation on a piece of advice you heard in your PADI course. If you
> have equipment that is not designed for the intended environment or
> the dive, then you owe to yourself and your buddy to either obtain
> the proper equipment or forgo the dive."

See?

> In Paul's specific instance, if he suspects that his equipment is
> ill-suited for such water temperatures, then he should either get the
> proper equipment, or not do the dive.

That's better. Now you're catching on.



04 Jun 2007 08:30:26
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On Jun 3, 4:39 pm, "Paul" <paul_beerk...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> We have not been able to go away for a tropical diving holiday for the last
> 18 months. My 2 options are cold water or no diving.
>
> I am not entirely convinced that it really gets that cold in lake Michigan
> but the guy I am going to do the dive master course with said it gets that
> cold. It definitly gets cold enough for people to get into trouble with free
> flowing regulators.
>
> If I could choose I would be diving in Thailand right now.

Why? It's a lousy time of the year to dive the Andaman, and the Gulf
diving is reportedly not so hot. It's a great time for the Caribbean,
though, and for south-of-the-equator sites like Indonesia.



04 Jun 2007 09:10:10
janusz_w@hotmail.com
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On 4 Cze, 01:39, "Paul" <paul_beerk...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> We have not been able to go away for a tropical diving holiday for the last
> 18 months. My 2 options are cold water or no diving.

So it is rather easy decision - of course if you're real diver.

>
> I am not entirely convinced that it really gets that cold in lake Michigan
> but the guy I am going to do the dive master course with said it gets that
> cold. It definitly gets cold enough for people to get into trouble with free
> flowing regulators.

Free flow happens and still a lot of divers like cold water- there are
also many patents to reduce such possibility and survive it - once
again if you want to get any reasonable advice describe us your
equipment first.

Janusz

>
> If I could choose I would be diving in Thailand right now.
>
> "Sheldon" <shel...@XXXXXXXXsopris.net> wrote in message
>
> news:v9mdnR87crTV8v3bnZ2dnUVZ_oCmnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>
> > "Paul" <paul_beerk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:cJ6dnZ53S9Uk0sHbnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@rcn.net...
> >> My wife and myself often dive as a buddy pair. We have not yet dived in
> >> the local lake but we will soon start doing this. The lake temperatur
> >> goes down to 30F which is lower than our minimum tempurature at which our
> >> regulators are guaranteed.
>
> >> I recently heard a story of a buddy pair both experiencing a free flowing
> >> regulator at the same time. In this case both shot up to the surface and
> >> apparantly died as a result of this.
>
> >> Thinking about this I would not know how to handle this situation any
> >> better. You probably will find it hard to see your ascent speed on your
> >> watch because of the bubles and you will need one hand anyway to hold the
> >> free flowing regulator in place and the other to deflate your bcd when
> >> you are going up.
>
> >> Do you have any suggestions and maybe experience in how to deal with this
> >> situation better?
>
> >> Paul
> > I've been following this thread. Interesting, but since diving is
> > supposed to be fun, why would anyone want to dive in 30 degree water
> > unless there was "REALLY" something interesting down there? Give anyone a
> > free diving trip and I guarantee you that a 30 degree lake will not be at
> > the top of their list.




04 Jun 2007 13:51:16
Lee Bell
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Greg Mossman wrote

> No, that's completely stupid. The correct response is to stay out of
> the frigid water until he has the right gear. Period.

Perhaps not, you know, the old Chlorine in the gene pool thing.




04 Jun 2007 12:44:49
Greg Mossman
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On Jun 4, 10:51 am, "Lee Bell" <pleeb...@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> Greg Mossman wrote
>
> > No, that's completely stupid. The correct response is to stay out of
> > the frigid water until he has the right gear. Period.
>
> Perhaps not, you know, the old Chlorine in the gene pool thing.

Anyone dumb or crazy enough to want to dive in a 30F lake in the first
place shouldn't be allowed to procreate. Fortunately Darwin took care
of that, since repeated exposure to frigid water causes irreversible
testicle and genital shrinkage. If he does have any kids, they'll be
real tiny ones.



04 Jun 2007 15:03:33
greg
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Greg,

Great, it looks like we both agree on the statement in both my
emails about proper equipment as an "overriding" factor for Paul above
other considerations. Paul should either get the correct equipment
for the conditions or not dive.

Regarding the discussion on gas management, please note that my
last email had a qualification concerning the gas management issue,
"In this case, not considering any other standards and focusing solely
on gas management relative to what Paul's feels is a possibility worth
considering. . . ".

Please remember that the last email about gas management was
answered based on a question about how one could suspect a problem in
advance; in this case Paul's concern about his regulator functioning
properly in under certain conditions, given certain information. It
was never meant to be something that would stand on its own as advice
on how to deal with Paul's issue. If it was, I would not have
mentioned the proper equipment issue as an overriding factor in this
case.

So, Paul, based on all of the emails and sage advice offered, have
figured out what you are going to do?

Regards,

Greg




06 Jun 2007 17:19:33
Paul
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Thanks for all your feedback.

I started this thread because I heard that 2 people died because of an
uncontrolled ascent after both their regulators free flowed. I then started
to think how I would handle this situation and I could not really figure out
how I should handle this situation if it ever happened to me.

Ofcourse prevention is best and I will do everything I can to avoid gettint
in this situation including avoiding water that cold because I know my
equipment is not rated for that temerature.

Still it is good to think about all the senarios that can happen and have a
plan in advance on how to deal with them especially because I am about to
start my dive master course and I am bound to find myself in one or two
tricky situations.



"greg" <gspeyrer@cox.net > wrote in message
news:1180994613.516596.172790@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Greg,
>
> Great, it looks like we both agree on the statement in both my
> emails about proper equipment as an "overriding" factor for Paul above
> other considerations. Paul should either get the correct equipment
> for the conditions or not dive.
>
> Regarding the discussion on gas management, please note that my
> last email had a qualification concerning the gas management issue,
> "In this case, not considering any other standards and focusing solely
> on gas management relative to what Paul's feels is a possibility worth
> considering. . . ".
>
> Please remember that the last email about gas management was
> answered based on a question about how one could suspect a problem in
> advance; in this case Paul's concern about his regulator functioning
> properly in under certain conditions, given certain information. It
> was never meant to be something that would stand on its own as advice
> on how to deal with Paul's issue. If it was, I would not have
> mentioned the proper equipment issue as an overriding factor in this
> case.
>
> So, Paul, based on all of the emails and sage advice offered, have
> figured out what you are going to do?
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>




06 Jun 2007 17:22:48
Paul
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

I have been instructed in how to deal with a free flowing regulator and
during my Padi Open Water course I did breath from one for one minute.

There is a big difference though between this happening in a pool where you
can just stand up and be above the water or this happening at 90feet with
decompression sickness and a rapidly emptying tank to think about.

Paul

"greg" <gspeyrer@cox.net > wrote in message
news:1180929109.518838.156680@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Lee,
>
> You're correct. It's not a sure thing that folks will have the
> knowledge or skills when the time comes to use it.
>
> In Paul's case - and I don't personally know the gentleman - I'm
> making an assumption that he has such knowledge. Paul will have to
> answer that one.
>
> I would also agree with you that there are certified divers from a
> lot of agencies (PADI included) that have knowledge and skill gaps -
> big and small.
>
> Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Paul was shown how
> to deal with a free flowing regulator in his course. If he hasn't
> then he needs to file a complaint with PADI. It is a skill that PADI
> instructors are supposed to teach - at least today and in several
> years past.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>




07 Jun 2007 01:06:41
Doh
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Paul wrote:
> Thanks for all your feedback.
>
> I started this thread because I heard that 2 people died because of an
> uncontrolled ascent after both their regulators free flowed. I then started
> to think how I would handle this situation and I could not really figure out
> how I should handle this situation if it ever happened to me.
>
> Ofcourse prevention is best and I will do everything I can to avoid gettint
> in this situation including avoiding water that cold because I know my
> equipment is not rated for that temerature.
>
> Still it is good to think about all the senarios that can happen and have a
> plan in advance on how to deal with them especially because I am about to
> start my dive master course and I am bound to find myself in one or two
> tricky situations.
>
>
>
> "greg" <gspeyrer@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1180994613.516596.172790@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> Greg,
>>
>> Great, it looks like we both agree on the statement in both my
>> emails about proper equipment as an "overriding" factor for Paul above
>> other considerations. Paul should either get the correct equipment
>> for the conditions or not dive.
>>
>> Regarding the discussion on gas management, please note that my
>> last email had a qualification concerning the gas management issue,
>> "In this case, not considering any other standards and focusing solely
>> on gas management relative to what Paul's feels is a possibility worth
>> considering. . . ".
>>
>> Please remember that the last email about gas management was
>> answered based on a question about how one could suspect a problem in
>> advance; in this case Paul's concern about his regulator functioning
>> properly in under certain conditions, given certain information. It
>> was never meant to be something that would stand on its own as advice
>> on how to deal with Paul's issue. If it was, I would not have
>> mentioned the proper equipment issue as an overriding factor in this
>> case.
>>
>> So, Paul, based on all of the emails and sage advice offered, have
>> figured out what you are going to do?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>
>
You're starting divemaster and haven't done your rescue course - which
might possibly cover such scenarios.........


07 Jun 2007 01:14:24
Doh
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Paul wrote:
> I have been instructed in how to deal with a free flowing regulator and
> during my Padi Open Water course I did breath from one for one minute.

I don't know where you did your course but 30 seconds is the required
standard!

>
> There is a big difference though between this happening in a pool where you
> can just stand up and be above the water or this happening at 90feet with
> decompression sickness and a rapidly emptying tank to think about.
>
If you have only just done your open water and are at 90ft I have no
sympathy.
Futher experience and training might have been more useful.


> Paul
>
> "greg" <gspeyrer@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1180929109.518838.156680@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> Lee,
>>
>> You're correct. It's not a sure thing that folks will have the
>> knowledge or skills when the time comes to use it.
>>
>> In Paul's case - and I don't personally know the gentleman - I'm
>> making an assumption that he has such knowledge. Paul will have to
>> answer that one.
>>
>> I would also agree with you that there are certified divers from a
>> lot of agencies (PADI included) that have knowledge and skill gaps -
>> big and small.
>>
>> Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Paul was shown how
>> to deal with a free flowing regulator in his course. If he hasn't
>> then he needs to file a complaint with PADI. It is a skill that PADI
>> instructors are supposed to teach - at least today and in several
>> years past.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>
>


06 Jun 2007 21:16:28
JRE
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

Paul wrote:
> Thanks for all your feedback.
>
> I started this thread because I heard that 2 people died because of an
> uncontrolled ascent after both their regulators free flowed. I then started
> to think how I would handle this situation and I could not really figure out
> how I should handle this situation if it ever happened to me.
>
> Ofcourse prevention is best and I will do everything I can to avoid gettint
> in this situation including avoiding water that cold because I know my
> equipment is not rated for that temerature.
>
> Still it is good to think about all the senarios that can happen and have a
> plan in advance on how to deal with them especially because I am about to
> start my dive master course and I am bound to find myself in one or two
> tricky situations.
<snip >

I'm a bit surprised nobody suggested controlling the flow with the
cylinder's valve so that the air didn't flow as fast as possible, but
still flowed fast enough to breathe at a reasonable rate during a
controlled ascent.

It seems to me that one might even salvage enough air for at least some
deco depending on the point of the dive at which the problem chose to
occur. I think I've read somewhere that cave divers are taught to do
this (and even to breath from the tank this way with no regulator as a
last resort) and it certainly seems a sensible thing to try when
submerged a half a mile from the nearest open water...

Or am I missing something (or perhaps a post in which somebody *did*
suggest it)?

My son has had two instances of unexpected free flow, both times because
his octo came loose and its movement through the water caused it to
start. (Now he uses a necklace.) The second time was at 130' or so
late in the dive, and by the time he recognized the problem and stopped
the free flow--which didn't take him long--it was a good thing he had a
pony bottle from a safety standpoint even though he didn't quite need to
use it. It's hard to believe how fast the pressure drops.

We shared air at the safety stop (and wow! does a 7' hose make this
easier) off my doubles as a result to keep his dive profile entirely on
Nitrox. I think he had 200 pounds or less in his LP125 when we surfaced.

--
John Eells


06 Jun 2007 22:26:16
Dan Bracuk
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

JRE <nothing@nowhere.com > pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:

:I'm a bit surprised nobody suggested controlling the flow with the
:cylinder's valve so that the air didn't flow as fast as possible, but
:still flowed fast enough to breathe at a reasonable rate during a
:controlled ascent.

Having had it happen to me, I'm not. It's not exactly the first thing
that pops into your mind. Plus, some of us can't reach our cylinder
valves. Not to mention that turning down the air supply underwater is
quite simply, counter-intuitive.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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07 Jun 2007 02:16:14
Grumman-581
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 22:26:16 -0500, Dan Bracuk <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com >
wrote:
> Plus, some of us can't reach our cylinder
> valves.

If you put in front of you where they belong, it's easy...


08 Jun 2007 15:00:43
Paul
Re: What to do with free flowing regulators

No, I am doing my dive master course at the moment. My open water was
several years ago.

"Doh" <doh@microsoft.com > wrote in message
news:5cp0vaF2vt6doU1@mid.individual.net...
> Paul wrote:
>> I have been instructed in how to deal with a free flowing regulator and
>> during my Padi Open Water course I did breath from one for one minute.
>
> I don't know where you did your course but 30 seconds is the required
> standard!
>
>>
>> There is a big difference though between this happening in a pool where
>> you can just stand up and be above the water or this happening at 90feet
>> with decompression sickness and a rapidly emptying tank to think about.
>>
> If you have only just done your open water and are at 90ft I have no
> sympathy.
> Futher experience and training might have been more useful.
>
>
>> Paul
>>
>> "greg" <gspeyrer@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:1180929109.518838.156680@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>> Lee,
>>>
>>> You're correct. It's not a sure thing that folks will have the
>>> knowledge or skills when the time comes to use it.
>>>
>>> In Paul's case - and I don't personally know the gentleman - I'm
>>> making an assumption that he has such knowledge. Paul will have to
>>> answer that one.
>>>
>>> I would also agree with you that there are certified divers from a
>>> lot of agencies (PADI included) that have knowledge and skill gaps -
>>> big and small.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Paul was shown how
>>> to deal with a free flowing regulator in his course. If he hasn't
>>> then he needs to file a complaint with PADI. It is a skill that PADI
>>> instructors are supposed to teach - at least today and in several
>>> years past.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>