08 Jan 2006 09:12:04
Mick
Questions about DIR

How does one go about obtaining DIR style equipment? Halcyon makes BCs
and lights, and much of the remainder is just buying certain types of
items (e.g. ScubaPro Jet Fins), but what about regulators? Do they have
to be custom made to get the right hose lengths?

Also, the GUE web site says...
"The second stage NEEDS to be able to be stripped under water, just in
case there is debris under the exhaust valve or it has moved (i.e.
folded back) causing the second stage to breathe wet. As such, the face
plate needs to be removable without any tools, while wearing gloves."

Are most regulators capable of being field stripped under water? How
would you know? I've been looking around on the web for information on
regulators lately and haven't found much real information. Most of what
I have found is simply marketing hype.



09 Jan 2006 07:19:37
ben bradlee
Re: Questions about DIR


"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > wrote in message
news:1136740324.093107.164210@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> How does one go about obtaining DIR style equipment? Halcyon makes BCs
> and lights, and much of the remainder is just buying certain types of
> items (e.g. ScubaPro Jet Fins), but what about regulators? Do they have
> to be custom made to get the right hose lengths?
>
> Also, the GUE web site says...
> "The second stage NEEDS to be able to be stripped under water, just in
> case there is debris under the exhaust valve or it has moved (i.e.
> folded back) causing the second stage to breathe wet. As such, the face
> plate needs to be removable without any tools, while wearing gloves."
>
> Are most regulators capable of being field stripped under water? How
> would you know? I've been looking around on the web for information on
> regulators lately and haven't found much real information. Most of what
> I have found is simply marketing hype.
>

Wouldn't you rather spend your time enjoying diving?




09 Jan 2006 09:14:39
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

> How does one go about obtaining DIR style equipment? Halcyon makes BCs
> and lights, and much of the remainder is just buying certain types of
> items (e.g. ScubaPro Jet Fins), but what about regulators? Do they have
> to be custom made to get the right hose lengths?

Don't get too caught up in the DIR configuration unless it specifically
applies to the diving you are doing. Not everybody likes Jet Fins which
were selected more for their ability to be used in confined potentially
silty places than for their efficient propulsion. Remember propulsion is a
function of water moved and water moved increases the risk of stirring up
sediments in confined spaces.

> Also, the GUE web site says..."The second stage NEEDS to be able to be
> stripped under water, just in
> case there is debris under the exhaust valve or it has moved (i.e. folded
> back) causing the second stage to breathe
> wet. As such, the face plate needs to be removable without any tools,
> while wearing gloves."

> Are most regulators capable of being field stripped under water? How
> would you know? I've been looking around on the web for information on
> regulators lately and haven't found much real information. Most of what
> I have found is simply marketing hype.

Some are, some aren't. My US Divers regulators are. My Scuba Pro regulator
isn't unless the retaining pin is removed. You know by asking and by having
the shop show you. Be alert for small parts that might be easily lost.

Lee




09 Jan 2006 06:59:15
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

ben bradlee wrote:
> Wouldn't you rather spend your time enjoying diving?

I would, but since I can't dive right now I don't see any reason why I
shouldn't try to learn a few things while I'm waiting.



09 Jan 2006 07:26:12
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> Don't get too caught up in the DIR configuration unless it specifically
> applies to the diving you are doing.

I currently have no interest in tech diving, however, much of the DIR
gear configuration makes just as much sense for open water diving.

Can you give me any reasons why I shouldn't consider it for my gear
configuration?


> Some are, some aren't. My US Divers regulators are. My Scuba Pro regulator
> isn't unless the retaining pin is removed. You know by asking and by having
> the shop show you. Be alert for small parts that might be easily lost.

Thanks Lee.



09 Jan 2006 11:26:37
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

> Lee Bell wrote:
>> Don't get too caught up in the DIR configuration unless it specifically
>> applies to the diving you are doing.
>
> I currently have no interest in tech diving, however, much of the DIR
> gear configuration makes just as much sense for open water diving.

> Can you give me any reasons why I shouldn't consider it for my gear
> configuration?

I didn't say you shouldn't consider it. I said don't get too caught up in
it. There are a lot of elements of the DIR system that work very well for
all divers, but there are several that most divers prefer not to adopt. The
point is, consider everything, but configure youself according to the diving
you are/will be doing. Here are a few examples of DIR stuff that many chose
not to follow:
1. Long hose. This is the most obvious element of the DIR system. Even the
god of DIR has admitted that there's no compelling reason to dive a long
hose in open water. On the other hand, many of those who got used to the
long hose continue to use it even in open water. It's a hassel on the boat.
It's not a problem in the water.
2. Computer. Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use
computers. That's not entirely true, but it is safe to say that those that
use them as computers, as opposed to using them as gauges, keep quite about
it. The officially sanctioned DIR computer was Suunto precisely because
it's a good recording device when used in gauge mode. Many of the Suunto
line is disliked by the advanced recreational diving community because of
how very conservative they are and because of how they handle nitrox
percentages.
3. Guage location. The DIR way is to put your contents guage on a shorter
than normal hose that is clipped to your left side waist D ring. Your
compass and depth guage go on your wrist. I forget which one goes on which
wrist. That's fine for those that have been diving long enough, or planned
well enough, not to need to check their gas supply, but it's not necessarily
the best idea for those that need to look more often or for those that,
contrary to DIR doctrine, have their guage, compass and computer in a
console. Often, the best configuration for the non DIR crowd has the
computer, etc. clipped off on a chest D ring. When I had mine there, I
could refer to it no hands.
4. The Knife. As far as I know, the DIR standard is still a small, blunt
point knife located in the center of the waist belt. Personoally, I carry
two small knives, one blunt, one pointed. Mine are behind the D rings on
each side of my waist belt.
5. Lights. The DIR way is to use a cannister light. Most DIR divers I've
known carry one even when diving in daytime clear water locations. I've
never owned a cannister light and almost certainly never will. I simply
don't need that much light or weight. On the other hand, I do carry a
couple of Scout lights, one on each shoulder strap on all dives. They're my
backup for night and/or cave/cavern diving, something I almost never do
anymore. It's easier to leave them in place than to remove and replace them
as necessary.
6. Fins. This is what started this conversation. I tried Jet Fins when
they first came out, some 40 or so years ago. I hated them then and I still
do. They simply do not do what I want fins to do. In addition to being old
technology, they're heavy. The DIR standard is to use stainless spring
heels to keep pocket fins on your feet. Since I'm a warm water diver, I
have other options. My standard is to use a full foot fin that is more
efficient, lighter and less expensive. I have two favorites, Mares TRE and
Mares Power Quatro fins. I'm quite certain that I bill blow anybody with no
more than comperable strength and skill away using my fins against their Jet
Fins. Some of them don't think so. That's OK too.

At any rate, the point is, consider everything and settle on what works best
for you. The DIR system has some excellent elements. Personally, I very
much like the harness system. It keeps my tank sable and free from excess
movement. I love my wing and stainless plate because they are both
streamlined and just happen to be exactly the amount of weight I need for my
normal diving. In warm water, I don't carry any lead at all. I think the
necklaced alternate is one of the best ideas anyone has had in years, but
have, at least temporarily, abandoned the long hose. I may go back to it,
or something similar. So far, the shorter, standard length hose, has not
proven to be as comfortable. I'm working on it.

Regarding regulator choice, someone will soon tell you about Apex or Apeks.
I'm not sure if that's one manufacturer or two, or which is the current
choice of technical divers. They were "discovered" after I bought my Scuba
Pro or I'd probably be using one now. When you find out which one it is
that everybody likes, give one a try.

Lee




09 Jan 2006 17:12:22
Charlie Hammond
Re: Questions about DIR

In article <1136820372.652686.287730@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > writes:

>I currently have no interest in tech diving, however, much of the DIR
>gear configuration makes just as much sense for open water diving.

I agree.

Here is a little demo you can do to help people understand the desirability
of the 7-foot hose:

Have a "volunteer" place his/her right hand on your left shoulder.
This approximates pretty well the position you MUST be in to share
air with a traditional "octopus".

Now assume the reason you are out of air is that your foot is stuck
is something-or-other, somehow.
Ask your "volunteer" to "swim" down and get your foot loose --
WITHOUT taking his/her hand of your shoulder.

This often will NOT convince someone, but it WILL get them thinking
about how nice it could be to have a 7-foot arm / air-hose.

--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.



09 Jan 2006 17:28:31
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Can you give me any reasons why I shouldn't consider it for my gear
:configuration?

Metal backplates are heavy. This could be an issue with travelling,
especially if you also have extra weight thrown in to your single tank
adaptor.

BC pockets are nice to have but they're not DIR.

Integrated weight BCs are nice but they are not DIR.

If you tend to assume a head up, feet down attitude in the water
anyhow, negatively buoyant fins such as Jet Fins, which are DIR are
not necessarily a better choice than posiitivley buoyant fins which
are not DIR.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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09 Jan 2006 17:49:52
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> I didn't say you shouldn't consider it. I said don't get too caught up in
> it. There are a lot of elements of the DIR system that work very well for
> all divers, but there are several that most divers prefer not to adopt. The
> point is, consider everything, but configure youself according to the diving
> you are/will be doing. Here are a few examples of DIR stuff that many chose
> not to follow:

> 1. Long hose. This is the most obvious element of the DIR system. Even the
> god of DIR has admitted that there's no compelling reason to dive a long
> hose in open water. On the other hand, many of those who got used to the
> long hose continue to use it even in open water. It's a hassel on the boat.
> It's not a problem in the water.

If the long hose results in less drag (because it's wrapped tighter to
the body), then I see no compelling reason not to dive with one in open
water. The tradeoffs would seem to me to be less drag (easier swimming)
and the benefit of a long hose when needed, at the cost of slightly
less performance at the second stage and a bit more hassle on the boat.


> 2. Computer. Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use
> computers.

I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer. :)


> 3. Guage location. The DIR way is to put your contents guage on a shorter
> than normal hose that is clipped to your left side waist D ring. Your
> compass and depth guage go on your wrist. I forget which one goes on which
> wrist. That's fine for those that have been diving long enough, or planned
> well enough, not to need to check their gas supply, but it's not necessarily
> the best idea for those that need to look more often or for those that,
> contrary to DIR doctrine, have their guage, compass and computer in a
> console. Often, the best configuration for the non DIR crowd has the
> computer, etc. clipped off on a chest D ring. When I had mine there, I
> could refer to it no hands.

I see no problem with having an SPG in the DIR position, as long as
it's not difficult to read. The console on the chest sounds okay to me
too, although having it there would probably be less streamlined.
Either way sounds fine to me, as long the items are configured to
maximize safety and ease of use, and minimize drag.


> 4. The Knife. As far as I know, the DIR standard is still a small, blunt
> point knife located in the center of the waist belt. Personoally, I carry
> two small knives, one blunt, one pointed. Mine are behind the D rings on
> each side of my waist belt.

No opinion yet, other than to say that I never go anywhere without a
knife. I keep a small Kershaw folding pocket knife with me at all
times, even at the office. I've had that same knife for about 30 years
now. I use it all the time too. I'm not sure what type of knife I'll
want yet, so I bought a couple of Tusa BC mini-knives so we would have
something.


> 5. Lights. The DIR way is to use a cannister light. Most DIR divers I've
> known carry one even when diving in daytime clear water locations.

Probably because that's where they tuck the 7' hose. :)


> 6. Fins. This is what started this conversation. I tried Jet Fins when
> they first came out, some 40 or so years ago. I hated them then and I still
> do. They simply do not do what I want fins to do. In addition to being old
> technology, they're heavy. The DIR standard is to use stainless spring
> heels to keep pocket fins on your feet. Since I'm a warm water diver, I
> have other options. My standard is to use a full foot fin that is more
> efficient, lighter and less expensive. I have two favorites, Mares TRE and
> Mares Power Quatro fins. I'm quite certain that I bill blow anybody with no
> more than comperable strength and skill away using my fins against their Jet
> Fins. Some of them don't think so. That's OK too.

I let a woman at the dive shop talk me into buying a pair of Oceanic
Vortex V-12 fins. I haven't tried them out yet. They feel a bit heavy,
but very comfortable with my booties on.


> At any rate, the point is, consider everything and settle on what works best
> for you. The DIR system has some excellent elements. Personally, I very
> much like the harness system. It keeps my tank sable and free from excess
> movement. I love my wing and stainless plate because they are both
> streamlined and just happen to be exactly the amount of weight I need for my
> normal diving. In warm water, I don't carry any lead at all.

I'm considering a Halcyon rig myself. Have you seen the movie "Into the
Blue" yet? That Jessica Alba looks so... ummm... streamlined in her
Halcyon BC! It made me want to... ahhh... run right out and buy one. :)

Seriously, I'll want to give one a try first, but I'm keeping an open
mind.


> I think the necklaced alternate is one of the best ideas anyone has had in years, but
> have, at least temporarily, abandoned the long hose. I may go back to it,
> or something similar. So far, the shorter, standard length hose, has not
> proven to be as comfortable. I'm working on it.

I think I'd like to try a 5' primary hose, under the arm and around the
neck, and a short alternate over the sholder with a tubular necklace.


> Regarding regulator choice, someone will soon tell you about Apex or Apeks.
> I'm not sure if that's one manufacturer or two, or which is the current
> choice of technical divers. They were "discovered" after I bought my Scuba
> Pro or I'd probably be using one now. When you find out which one it is
> that everybody likes, give one a try.

Thanks Lee, I'll do that.



09 Jan 2006 18:10:30
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

hammond@not wrote:
> Ask your "volunteer" to "swim" down and get your foot loose --
> WITHOUT taking his/her hand of your shoulder.

That should get the point across. :)



09 Jan 2006 18:39:45
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> Metal backplates are heavy. This could be an issue with travelling,
> especially if you also have extra weight thrown in to your single tank
> adaptor.

I suppose that might be a major drawback.

What about it folks? Anybody have trouble flying with their
backplate/wing rig?


> BC pockets are nice to have but they're not DIR.

According to Halcyon's web site, the preferred DIR placement calls for
the use of a bellowed zipper pocket on the left thigh.


> Integrated weight BCs are nice but they are not DIR.

Halcyon has the Active Control Ballast (ACB) weight system. I don't
know if it's DIR, but it seems to be an integrated weight system.


> If you tend to assume a head up, feet down attitude in the water
> anyhow, negatively buoyant fins such as Jet Fins, which are DIR are
> not necessarily a better choice than posiitivley buoyant fins which
> are not DIR.

I haven't had my new Vortex V-12 fins in the water yet, so I don't know
about their bouyancy. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

Thanks Dan!



09 Jan 2006 23:14:29
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:According to Halcyon's web site, the preferred DIR placement calls for
:the use of a bellowed zipper pocket on the left thigh.

That would be a pocket in the drysuit. If you think you will be doing
most of your diving in cold water, this just might be a good idea.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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10 Jan 2006 05:22:09
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Mick wrote:
> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>Don't get too caught up in the DIR configuration unless it specifically
>>applies to the diving you are doing.
>
>
> I currently have no interest in tech diving, however, much of the DIR
> gear configuration makes just as much sense for open water diving.
>
> Can you give me any reasons why I shouldn't consider it for my gear
> configuration?

I can give you many reasons why you should. It works very well for all
the types of diving that I have done, most of which has been
recreational level. I love the gear and the methods and I enjoy my
diving the most when I follow GUE methods.

There are others here who have tried it and kept parts, Lee is one of
them. I searched for something better than PADI and NJ wreck
configurations right out of the gate. I settled on Halcyon gear and DIR
methods and I've pretty much never looked back. Every time I have taken
a detour I've regretted it.

If it appeals to you from just reading about it, then my guess is that
you will like diving it. If you can take a GUE fundamentals course, you
will get a real boost on how to put the whole thing together.


10 Jan 2006 05:24:09
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
> :Can you give me any reasons why I shouldn't consider it for my gear
> :configuration?
>
> Metal backplates are heavy. This could be an issue with travelling,

Cut that shit out, Dan. Al and I have both just posted extensive
descriptions of travelling to the Caribbean with full DIR gear while
staying under the new weight limits.


10 Jan 2006 05:43:16
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Mick wrote:
>
> If the long hose results in less drag (because it's wrapped tighter to
> the body), then I see no compelling reason not to dive with one in open
> water. The tradeoffs would seem to me to be less drag (easier swimming)
> and the benefit of a long hose when needed, at the cost of slightly
> less performance at the second stage and a bit more hassle on the boat.

You've got it exactly, and the hassle on the boat is minimal. I just
got back from Roatan where I dove with the long hose out of a panga. I
just coiled the hose up and ran the reg through the loop before snapping
it to the d-ring. You can easily uncoil it after you don the rig and
people hauling it into the boat never had any trouble.
>
>
>
>>2. Computer. Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use
>>computers.
>
>
> I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer. :)

I let my computer work for me, too, but I also try to learn as much
about deco as I can so that my brain tracks the problem as well. The
more advanced the diving, the more important this becomes.
>
> I see no problem with having an SPG in the DIR position, as long as
> it's not difficult to read. The console on the chest sounds okay to me
> too, although having it there would probably be less streamlined.
> Either way sounds fine to me, as long the items are configured to
> maximize safety and ease of use, and minimize drag.

Learning to clip it with gloves on was a pain, but once I got past that,
it's been great. I never bash a reef with my SPG and I've seen many a
console do that.
>
>
> No opinion yet, other than to say that I never go anywhere without a
> knife. I keep a small Kershaw folding pocket knife with me at all
> times, even at the office. I've had that same knife for about 30 years
> now. I use it all the time too. I'm not sure what type of knife I'll
> want yet, so I bought a couple of Tusa BC mini-knives so we would have
> something.

I carry EMT shears, which I believe to be better for fishing line, etc.
I've never used them in anger underwater, nor a knife.

>
>>5. Lights. The DIR way is to use a cannister light. Most DIR divers I've
>>known carry one even when diving in daytime clear water locations.
>
>
> Probably because that's where they tuck the 7' hose. :)

Nah, you can tuck the hose inside the waistband. I take it along on all
dives because I use it to communicate, poke in holes, bring out colors,
and it's part of my weighting system. I didn't bring it on two dives in
Roatan because I thought it would be a pain on the little boat and I
didn't want to bother people. Sure enough, the viz on the surface was
crap and we had a night dive basically. Brought it the next day and it
made my BC not fit in their little rack, but they just laid it down and
everything was fine.

>
>
>
> I let a woman at the dive shop talk me into buying a pair of Oceanic
> Vortex V-12 fins. I haven't tried them out yet. They feel a bit heavy,
> but very comfortable with my booties on.

I did the same with a pair of ScubaPro TwinJets. Haven't used them
since I bought real jetfins.

>
>
> I'm considering a Halcyon rig myself. Have you seen the movie "Into the
> Blue" yet? That Jessica Alba looks so... ummm... streamlined in her
> Halcyon BC! It made me want to... ahhh... run right out and buy one. :)

Well, now...

>
> Seriously, I'll want to give one a try first, but I'm keeping an open
> mind.

I'd looked at many, many BCs, talked to many shop people and was never
happy. I finally tracked down a place where I could buy a Halcyon bp &
wing, went there and bought one about twenty seconds after I saw it in
the store. One of the few major purchases in my life that I've never
had a second thought about.

>
>
>
>>I think the necklaced alternate is one of the best ideas anyone has had in years, but
>>have, at least temporarily, abandoned the long hose. I may go back to it,
>>or something similar. So far, the shorter, standard length hose, has not
>>proven to be as comfortable. I'm working on it.
>
>
> I think I'd like to try a 5' primary hose, under the arm and around the
> neck, and a short alternate over the sholder with a tubular necklace.

I haven't tried that, but everyone that I know who has gave it up and
now dives the 7' hose.

>
>>Regarding regulator choice, someone will soon tell you about Apex or Apeks.
>>I'm not sure if that's one manufacturer or two, or which is the current
>>choice of technical divers. They were "discovered" after I bought my Scuba
>>Pro or I'd probably be using one now. When you find out which one it is
>>that everybody likes, give one a try.

Apeks. Some Zeagle regs are relabelled Apeks, though I'm not sure of
the current state of that. I have the DS4 first stage and TX-50 second
as a backup. My primary is a SP G500 and it is wigging out on me. I
will probably switch it to a TX-50 by the end of the week.

Mick, judging from your responses, my guess is that you will really
enjoy a DIR setup. Lots of divers like to tinker with their gear,
design new methods, etc. I'm not one of them. I do that in my day job.
In diving, I really enjoy the fact that I can just waltz along the
path the GUE people have laid down. It lets me enjoy my diving.


10 Jan 2006 05:44:26
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> "Mick" wrote
>
>
>>How does one go about obtaining DIR style equipment? Halcyon makes BCs
>>and lights, and much of the remainder is just buying certain types of
>>items (e.g. ScubaPro Jet Fins), but what about regulators? Do they have
>>to be custom made to get the right hose lengths?
>
>
> Don't get too caught up in the DIR configuration unless it specifically
> applies to the diving you are doing. Not everybody likes Jet Fins which
> were selected more for their ability to be used in confined potentially
> silty places than for their efficient propulsion. Remember propulsion is a
> function of water moved and water moved increases the risk of stirring up
> sediments in confined spaces.

Don't pay any attention to Lee. He's just a bitter old man battling
weekly hurricanes...

Seriously, while Lee's advice is reasonable, I almost never take it,
simply because I find that the GUE recommendations suit me better than
anything anyone else has to offer. Doesn't make me a better diver than
Lee, it's just my path to optimal enjoyment of my diving. Every time I
have chosen gear or methods that differ from GUE, I have ended up not
being very happy about it.



10 Jan 2006 05:47:11
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Mick wrote:
> Dan Bracuk wrote:
>
>>Metal backplates are heavy. This could be an issue with travelling,
>>especially if you also have extra weight thrown in to your single tank
>>adaptor.
>
>
> I suppose that might be a major drawback.
>
> What about it folks? Anybody have trouble flying with their
> backplate/wing rig?

Nope. Look up recent posts by me and Al Wells.

> According to Halcyon's web site, the preferred DIR placement calls for
> the use of a bellowed zipper pocket on the left thigh.

Which is great. You glue the pocket on, put a loop of thin bungee
through a hole in the front side, then clip everything to it. That way
nothing disappears when you reach for it. If you can't find it, you
just turn it all out, pick out the one thing you need, the put it all
back in one sweep.



10 Jan 2006 05:48:48
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
>
> :According to Halcyon's web site, the preferred DIR placement calls for
> :the use of a bellowed zipper pocket on the left thigh.
>
> That would be a pocket in the drysuit. If you think you will be doing
> most of your diving in cold water, this just might be a good idea.

No, it's not just for drysuits. You can put the pockets on wetsuits, too.

Fraser Purdon has been using a pair of shorts with pockets on both sides
that he pulls on over the wetsuit. That way he doesn't have to fuss
with gluing a pocket to everything.


10 Jan 2006 09:00:10
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

> Dan Bracuk wrote:
>> Metal backplates are heavy. This could be an issue with travelling,
>> especially if you also have extra weight thrown in to your single tank
>> adaptor.
>
> I suppose that might be a major drawback.
>
> What about it folks? Anybody have trouble flying with their
> backplate/wing rig?

I woldn't call it a major issue, but it is an issue. I love my stainless
plate, but I travel with my aluminum one.
>
>> BC pockets are nice to have but they're not DIR.
>
> According to Halcyon's web site, the preferred DIR placement calls for
> the use of a bellowed zipper pocket on the left thigh.

I considered this, but figured that sewing a pocket onto the skin on my leg
would hurt more than the results would be worth.

>> Integrated weight BCs are nice but they are not DIR.
>
> Halcyon has the Active Control Ballast (ACB) weight system. I don't
> know if it's DIR, but it seems to be an integrated weight system.

The ACB isn't DIR. It's also one of the biggest pieces of shit Halcyon ever
came up with. Only their soft keel weights were worse. I accomplished the
same thing with trim pockets threaded onto my waist belt. That works for me
because I don't have a cannister light there.

>> If you tend to assume a head up, feet down attitude in the water
>> anyhow, negatively buoyant fins such as Jet Fins, which are DIR are
>> not necessarily a better choice than posiitivley buoyant fins which
>> are not DIR.
>
> I haven't had my new Vortex V-12 fins in the water yet, so I don't know
> about their bouyancy. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

I think Dan got this one backwards. For head up, feet down, heavy fins work
fine. It's every other attitude that requires trim adjustment to work
right.

Lee




10 Jan 2006 09:01:02
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > wrote in message
news:4VHwf.82$sd1.3@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> Dan Bracuk wrote:
>> "Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>> resulting in:
>>
>> :According to Halcyon's web site, the preferred DIR placement calls for
>> :the use of a bellowed zipper pocket on the left thigh.
>>
>> That would be a pocket in the drysuit. If you think you will be doing
>> most of your diving in cold water, this just might be a good idea.
>
> No, it's not just for drysuits. You can put the pockets on wetsuits, too.

Same comment applies.

Lee




10 Jan 2006 09:13:09
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

>> 1. Long hose. This is the most obvious element of the DIR system. Even
>> the
>> god of DIR has admitted that there's no compelling reason to dive a long
>> hose in open water. On the other hand, many of those who got used to the
>> long hose continue to use it even in open water. It's a hassel on the
>> boat.
>> It's not a problem in the water.
>
> If the long hose results in less drag (because it's wrapped tighter to
> the body), then I see no compelling reason not to dive with one in open
> water. The tradeoffs would seem to me to be less drag (easier swimming)
> and the benefit of a long hose when needed, at the cost of slightly
> less performance at the second stage and a bit more hassle on the boat.

There's very little drag difference. The big advantages, in my mind, are
comfort (my current standard hose is till not as comfortable as my long one
was. I have hopes of curing this), ease of sharing (only important if you
actually share), and and reduce entanglement hazard (insignificant in open
water). The extend to hassel on the boat relates directly to how many
others are on the boat. Dive boats in S. Florida tend to be crowded.

>>
2. Computer. Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use
>> computers.

> I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer. :)

See?

>> 3. Guage location. The DIR way is to put your contents guage on a
>> shorter
>> than normal hose that is clipped to your left side waist D ring. Your
>> compass and depth guage go on your wrist. I forget which one goes on
>> which
>> wrist. That's fine for those that have been diving long enough, or
>> planned
>> well enough, not to need to check their gas supply, but it's not
>> necessarily
>> the best idea for those that need to look more often or for those that,
>> contrary to DIR doctrine, have their guage, compass and computer in a
>> console. Often, the best configuration for the non DIR crowd has the
>> computer, etc. clipped off on a chest D ring. When I had mine there, I
>> could refer to it no hands.
>
> I see no problem with having an SPG in the DIR position, as long as
> it's not difficult to read.

It's not difficult, it's impossible. The SPG has to be unclipped to be
read.

>> 5. Lights. The DIR way is to use a cannister light. Most DIR divers
>> I've
>> known carry one even when diving in daytime clear water locations.

> Probably because that's where they tuck the 7' hose. :)

Probably so. It's also part of their weighting system.

> I'm considering a Halcyon rig myself.

I use Halcyon plates, harnesses, wings, hoses and Scout Lights. Were I to
do it again today, I might chose differently. There are cheaper, equally
good options once you know what you want.

>> I think the necklaced alternate is one of the best ideas anyone has had
>> in years, but
>> have, at least temporarily, abandoned the long hose. I may go back to
>> it,
>> or something similar. So far, the shorter, standard length hose, has not
>> proven to be as comfortable. I'm working on it.

> I think I'd like to try a 5' primary hose, under the arm and around the
> neck, and a short alternate over the sholder with a tubular necklace.

I prefer the thin bungie necklace. It's easier to attach without attaching
it so tight that pulling it loose also pulls the mouthpiece off. As it
happens, mine was set up by Halcyon back when they were still in S. Florida.
The attachment method currently shown on DIR websites is not what was in
vogue when I set my gear up.

Lee




10 Jan 2006 09:17:08
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > wrote in message
news:UPHwf.49$9t6.24@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> Learning to clip it with gloves on was a pain, but once I got past that,
> it's been great. I never bash a reef with my SPG and I've seen many a
> console do that.

Clipped and under control is clipped and under control, whether it's on the
side, front or chest.

> Nah, you can tuck the hose inside the waistband. I take it along on all
> dives because I use it to communicate, poke in holes, bring out colors,

. . . cook fish. 8^)

Lee




10 Jan 2006 09:31:45
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Whistler" wrote

> Don't pay any attention to Lee. He's just a bitter old man battling
> weekly hurricanes...

Nah, I just hate Jet Fins.

> Seriously, while Lee's advice is reasonable, I almost never take it,
> simply because I find that the GUE recommendations suit me better than
> anything anyone else has to offer. Doesn't make me a better diver than
> Lee, it's just my path to optimal enjoyment of my diving. Every time I
> have chosen gear or methods that differ from GUE, I have ended up not
> being very happy about it.

The most important point is that each diver should evaluate the diving they
do, try as many options as is practical and independently decide what they
like best. If that results in a complete DIR setup, no problem.

Another issue that really has not been addressed is that DIR is a system
concept. Taking just the equipment part of it, changes can be problematic
simply because many of the parts were chosen because they work well with
other parts. Changing any one of them often means other changes, sometimes
undesirably changes. Here are a few examples, right off the top of my head:
Snorkels are not DIR. It's not, however, that they're never handy during a
dive (they have no place in an overhead environment, but that's a different
issue), but that they interfere with deployment of the long hose.
Combination alternate/primary regulators are not DIR at least partly
because, to be comfortable they usually have longer inflator hoses that are
not easily controlled by those wearing a harness system.
Stage tanks are carried only on the left side, at least partly because
balancing them with other tanks on the right side would interfere with
deployment of the long hose.

The point is not that these are the only, or even primary reasons for the
choices made in developing the DIR system. The point is that it is a system
and that changes tend to have repercussions. You, more or less, chose the
complete system because it works fine and is easier than reinventing the
wheel. I started with it and took the trouble to modify it because, for me
the effort was worth the difference. Neither is wrong, in the context of
the diving we do.

Having said all of that, if I were to dive in places like the WKPP team does
(not likely) with a WKPP team (really not likely), I'd match the WKPP DIR
equipment, gas, dive and fitness protocols as closely as possible. In that
environment, the system is lot more important than it is elsewhere.

Lee




10 Jan 2006 15:49:43
Charlie Hammond
Re: Questions about DIR

In article <1136860785.867237.252460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com >,
"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > writes:

>Halcyon has the Active Control Ballast (ACB) weight system. I don't
>know if it's DIR, but it seems to be an integrated weight system.

I am NOT the only one who considers this "system" to be over-engineered
and too complex -- in addition to its high price.

Simple, secure pockets from Halcyon, DiveRite or others are a better choice.

--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.



10 Jan 2006 15:52:57
Charlie Hammond
Re: Questions about DIR

In article <ZxHwf.76$sd1.71@tornado.socal.rr.com >, Whistler <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM> writes:
>Dan Bracuk wrote:
>> "Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com> pounded away at his keyboard
>> resulting in:
>> :Can you give me any reasons why I shouldn't consider it for my gear
>> :configuration?
>>
>> Metal backplates are heavy. This could be an issue with travelling,
>
>Cut that shit out, Dan. Al and I have both just posted extensive
>descriptions of travelling to the Caribbean with full DIR gear while
>staying under the new weight limits.

My wife and I chose AL backplates for exactly this reason -- keep travel
weight down. The down side is that we have to use a couple extra pounds
of weight -- I put mine on the tank strap, but it could be configured
elswhere to improve yoru bouancy trim.

--
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.



10 Jan 2006 13:34:27
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> Regarding regulator choice, someone will soon tell you about Apex or Apeks.
> I'm not sure if that's one manufacturer or two, or which is the current
> choice of technical divers. They were "discovered" after I bought my Scuba
> Pro or I'd probably be using one now. When you find out which one it is
> that everybody likes, give one a try.

Just out of curiosity, what is it about Apeks that makes them 'tech'
regulators? Is there actually something different about the Apeks
designs, or is it something else?



10 Jan 2006 16:38:05
Popeye
Re: Questions about DIR


"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > wrote in message
news:1136857792.176358.191850@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Lee Bell wrote:

>> 1. Long hose. This is the most obvious element of the DIR system. Even
>> the
>> god of DIR has admitted that there's no compelling reason to dive a long
>> hose in open water. On the other hand, many of those who got used to the
>> long hose continue to use it even in open water. It's a hassel on the
>> boat.
>> It's not a problem in the water.
>
> If the long hose results in less drag (because it's wrapped tighter to
> the body), then I see no compelling reason not to dive with one in open
> water. The tradeoffs would seem to me to be less drag (easier swimming)
> and the benefit of a long hose when needed, at the cost of slightly
> less performance at the second stage and a bit more hassle on the boat.

>> 5. Lights. The DIR way is to use a cannister light. Most DIR divers
>> I've
>> known carry one even when diving in daytime clear water locations.
>
> Probably because that's where they tuck the 7' hose. :)

That "less hose drag" sophistry gets a little splashy when you add a
canister light, cord, and Goodman handle into the equation.

And that canister light (the JEDI Light CannonT) is irritating to both
nocturnal sea life and other divers.

You should -observe- and -enjoy- the little fishes, not bake them.




10 Jan 2006 17:31:41
Popeye
Re: Questions about DIR


"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > wrote in message
news:1136860785.867237.252460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Dan Bracuk wrote:

>> Metal backplates are heavy. This could be an issue with travelling,
>> especially if you also have extra weight thrown in to your single tank
>> adaptor.
>
> I suppose that might be a major drawback.

Nah.

There are few BCs that weigh significantly less than a BP/W.

Plus they come in a "travel plate" configuration, with additional material
removed (hourglass shape, sorta).

And aluminum, and plastic.

>> BC pockets are nice to have but they're not DIR.
>
> According to Halcyon's web site, the preferred DIR placement calls for
> the use of a bellowed zipper pocket on the left thigh.

The glue always pulls the hair out of my leg.

It also means that you need a pocket for all your wetsuit combos.

>> Integrated weight BCs are nice but they are not DIR.
>
> Halcyon has the Active Control Ballast (ACB) weight system. I don't
> know if it's DIR, but it seems to be an integrated weight system.

It's like having a football on each hip (back to sophistry &
aquadynamics).

They well and truly suck.

I dive a backplate in many combinations and environments.

My solution, and I have no other, was basically non-ditchable weight in
permanently attached Dive Rite clipper pockets.

The weight -could- be ditched in advantageous situations, but not easily
otherwise.

Personally, I figure if I got air, I'm not ditching anything.

If I don't have air, I'm ditching the rig.

That's a personal philosophy from a relatively experienced diver.




10 Jan 2006 19:29:39
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

Whistler <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Fraser Purdon has been using a pair of shorts with pockets on both sides
:that he pulls on over the wetsuit. That way he doesn't have to fuss
:with gluing a pocket to everything.

That's pretty clever. Pass along my compliments next time you see
him..

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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10 Jan 2006 19:31:33
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:I think Dan got this one backwards. For head up, feet down, heavy fins work
:fine. It's every other attitude that requires trim adjustment to work
:right.

Upon further review, I said what I meant.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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10 Jan 2006 19:32:47
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Just out of curiosity, what is it about Apeks that makes them 'tech'
:regulators? Is there actually something different about the Apeks
:designs, or is it something else?

A lot of technical divers like them.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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10 Jan 2006 20:37:23
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > wrote in message
news:1136928867.081670.173000@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Lee Bell wrote:
>> Regarding regulator choice, someone will soon tell you about Apex or
>> Apeks.
>> I'm not sure if that's one manufacturer or two, or which is the current
>> choice of technical divers. They were "discovered" after I bought my
>> Scuba
>> Pro or I'd probably be using one now. When you find out which one it is
>> that everybody likes, give one a try.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what is it about Apeks that makes them 'tech'
> regulators? Is there actually something different about the Apeks
> designs, or is it something else?

Based on comments by others:
1. They are high performance regulators. They flow well at high demand
levels and at significant depths.
2. They resist freezing up.
3. The cover plate can be removed without tools.
4. Somebody offered WKPP a deal on them (just a guess).

Lee




10 Jan 2006 20:38:41
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Popeye" wrote

>> If the long hose results in less drag (because it's wrapped tighter to
>> the body), then I see no compelling reason not to dive with one in open
>> water. The tradeoffs would seem to me to be less drag (easier swimming)
>> and the benefit of a long hose when needed, at the cost of slightly
>> less performance at the second stage and a bit more hassle on the boat.
>
>>> 5. Lights. The DIR way is to use a cannister light. Most DIR divers
>>> I've
>>> known carry one even when diving in daytime clear water locations.
>>
>> Probably because that's where they tuck the 7' hose. :)
>
> That "less hose drag" sophistry gets a little splashy when you add a
> canister light, cord, and Goodman handle into the equation.

10-4 Good Buddy.

> And that canister light (the JEDI Light CannonT) is irritating to both
> nocturnal sea life and other divers.

> You should -observe- and -enjoy- the little fishes, not bake them.

<chuckle >

Lee





10 Jan 2006 20:41:21
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Popeye" wrote

> Personally, I figure if I got air, I'm not ditching anything.
> If I don't have air, I'm ditching the rig.
> That's a personal philosophy from a relatively experienced diver.

Very interesting concept. When picking nits, I'd consider whether I'll need
my BCD once I make it to the surface, but, overall, I like it.

Lee




10 Jan 2006 20:42:55
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Dan Bracuk" wrote

> :I think Dan got this one backwards. For head up, feet down, heavy fins
> work
> :fine. It's every other attitude that requires trim adjustment to work
> :right.

> Upon further review, I said what I meant.

Explain please. Your intent is not registering.

Lee




10 Jan 2006 18:00:35
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> I woldn't call it a major issue, but it is an issue. I love my stainless
> plate, but I travel with my aluminum one.

What's the difference in weight between your BC with the aluminum
plate, and an average jacket/vest style BC?

BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
to your destination?


> I considered this, but figured that sewing a pocket onto the skin on my leg
> would hurt more than the results would be worth.

And here I thought you were a real man. Jeez! I suppose you could just
super-glue it to your leg. Just be sure to get a pocket that matches
your pretty pink dress.





<just kidding of course > :)



11 Jan 2006 03:38:04
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> "Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM> wrote in message
> news:UPHwf.49$9t6.24@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
>>Learning to clip it with gloves on was a pain, but once I got past that,
>>it's been great. I never bash a reef with my SPG and I've seen many a
>>console do that.
>
>
> Clipped and under control is clipped and under control, whether it's on the
> side, front or chest.

You know I was talking about dangling consoles. And if just an SPG,
every other location gets in the way of something DIR like the long hose
or a stage bottle.


>
>>Nah, you can tuck the hose inside the waistband. I take it along on all
>>dives because I use it to communicate, poke in holes, bring out colors,
>
>
> . . . cook fish. 8^)

I've only got the measly 10 watt. Still, a woman I met at Cocoview who
is a jeweller took to calling my light ``bling bling.'' Pretty funny.


11 Jan 2006 03:44:39
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:

>
> The most important point is that each diver should evaluate the diving they
> do, try as many options as is practical and independently decide what they
> like best. If that results in a complete DIR setup, no problem.
>
> Another issue that really has not been addressed is that DIR is a system
> concept. Taking just the equipment part of it, changes can be problematic
> simply because many of the parts were chosen because they work well with
> other parts.

Hence my recommendation for taking the fundamentals course.

> Changing any one of them often means other changes, sometimes
> undesirably changes. Here are a few examples, right off the top of my head:
> Snorkels are not DIR. It's not, however, that they're never handy during a
> dive (they have no place in an overhead environment, but that's a different
> issue), but that they interfere with deployment of the long hose.

They do, but the bigger reason is that they usually aren't necessary in
a well planned dive, meaning good gas management, surface support, etc.
If they are part of the plan, then the recommendation is to get a
folding one and put it in a pocket to be deployed only on the surface.

> Combination alternate/primary regulators are not DIR at least partly
> because, to be comfortable they usually have longer inflator hoses that are
> not easily controlled by those wearing a harness system.

And the inflator mechanism makes for a third reg which is almost
impossible to break. That doesn't even take into account that the
inflater/reg combos tend to be kinda cheesy...



11 Jan 2006 03:45:26
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Charlie Hammond wrote:
> In article <1136860785.867237.252460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com> writes:
>
>
>>Halcyon has the Active Control Ballast (ACB) weight system. I don't
>>know if it's DIR, but it seems to be an integrated weight system.
>
>
> I am NOT the only one who considers this "system" to be over-engineered
> and too complex -- in addition to its high price.

I used it for a while, then went back to a weight belt. Much easier.


10 Jan 2006 22:45:47
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
:weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
:to your destination?

Most dive operators in the tropics provide tanks and weights as part
of the "take you out diving" package. In fact, I've never seen an
operator that didn't (in the tropics that is)

It depends where you travel. If you travel to a place that primarily
caters to local dives, they might charge you extra. I don't know, the
closest I have come to a place like that was in the Florida Keys, and
that shop provided tanks and weights at no extra charge.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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11 Jan 2006 03:53:25
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Mick wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, what is it about Apeks that makes them 'tech'
> regulators? Is there actually something different about the Apeks
> designs, or is it something else?

No gimmicks, simple, reliable. The US4 and DS4 first stages are the
ones that are so popular. The ports are all in the right place, both
for single and double tank DIR setups. No swivel turret. The DS4 has a
``dry seal'' diaphragm on it so that the piston isn't exposed to water,
which supposedly has some benefit in cold water and certainly helps keep
the thing clean.

Not all of their products are perfect. On one of their other first
stages they put in an LP port that was 1/2" instead of 3/8" so you had
to get an adaptor or a special hose, so that was a loss. (I've got two
if you would like to buy them and see for yourself... ;-)

I gather that inside they are very clean as well, easy to maintain and
repair.


11 Jan 2006 03:57:50
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Mick wrote:
> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>I woldn't call it a major issue, but it is an issue. I love my stainless
>>plate, but I travel with my aluminum one.
>
>
> What's the difference in weight between your BC with the aluminum
> plate, and an average jacket/vest style BC?

Well, my extra large stainless backplate with webbing, buckles, d-ring,
STA, etc weighs about 11lbs. I'm guessing that most BCs are about
4-5lbs, but I really don't know for sure.

> BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
> weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
> to your destination?

Tanks and weights are always available at your destination.


10 Jan 2006 22:57:35
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:

:Explain please. Your intent is not registering.

What I said, was, if you tend to naturally adopt a head up, feet down
attitude, negatively buoyant fins are not necessarily your best
choice.

The reason is that negatively bouyant fins will reinforce what is
already happening and it will entail more effort to assume other
positions you may want to take in the water. Getting horizontal would
be one example.

You mentioned adding trim to the top. This may be ok, it may not be
ok. For me, probably not ok. I am admittedly a lot more dense than
most divers, I need almost no extra weight to submerge (none with
steel tanks in fact). Adding weight at the top to counteract extra
weight at the bottom means I could become overweighted.

But that's just me.

Most divers I see are more buoyant than me. They need the weight
anyhow so they may as well distribute it as they see fit.


Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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10 Jan 2006 23:05:41
Popeye
Re: Questions about DIR


"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:vkZwf.31612$0y2.25234@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> "Popeye" wrote
>
>> Personally, I figure if I got air, I'm not ditching anything.
>> If I don't have air, I'm ditching the rig.
>> That's a personal philosophy from a relatively experienced diver.
>
> Very interesting concept. When picking nits, I'd consider whether I'll
> need my BCD once I make it to the surface, but, overall, I like it.

It's a pickable nit, but 99% of my dives that might require a ditch are
under a cattle boat.

And the cattle.

Also, I can swim 130s up with ease.

I wouldn't ditch the kit unless compelled.

>
> Lee
>




11 Jan 2006 04:07:40
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Popeye wrote:
>
> That "less hose drag" sophistry gets a little splashy when you add a
> canister light, cord, and Goodman handle into the equation.

I'm not sure the canister light adds much drag, although the light head
can wobble, but I agree that the difference in drag between the long
hose and the standard hose is probably insignificant. For me, the long
hose routing is just so comfortable. I love the fact that there are no
big loops sticking out. If I could route a shorter hose as nicely, I
might actually use it.

>
> And that canister light (the JEDI Light CannonT) is irritating to both
> nocturnal sea life and other divers.

Certainly can be, although it depends on the conditions. In San Diego
waters, my 10W seems barely enough sometimes.

In the Caribbean, I tend to dive with it defocussed, so that it's not
much brighter than a normal dive light, but has a much bigger area. I
led a group of five on this last trip and everyone used my light to do
spotting.

I leave the set screw loose with my fingers in position to pull/push the
head back and forth to go from wide to narrow focus. If it's coral,
I'll focus in, but something like an octopus or eel will just get the
very edge of the defocussed beam. I also just put my fingers over the
bulb to reduce the beam some.


11 Jan 2006 10:41:26
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

Thanks. It makes sense now.

Lee

"Dan Bracuk" <NOTbracuk@pathcom.com > wrote in message
news:k209s11kppjcu6d5qttt6hus3skqhuemmc@4ax.com...
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
>
> :Explain please. Your intent is not registering.
>
> What I said, was, if you tend to naturally adopt a head up, feet down
> attitude, negatively buoyant fins are not necessarily your best
> choice.
>
> The reason is that negatively bouyant fins will reinforce what is
> already happening and it will entail more effort to assume other
> positions you may want to take in the water. Getting horizontal would
> be one example.
>
> You mentioned adding trim to the top. This may be ok, it may not be
> ok. For me, probably not ok. I am admittedly a lot more dense than
> most divers, I need almost no extra weight to submerge (none with
> steel tanks in fact). Adding weight at the top to counteract extra
> weight at the bottom means I could become overweighted.
>
> But that's just me.
>
> Most divers I see are more buoyant than me. They need the weight
> anyhow so they may as well distribute it as they see fit.
>
>
> Dan Bracuk
> If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
>
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11 Jan 2006 11:51:30
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

> What's the difference in weight between your BC with the aluminum
> plate, and an average jacket/vest style BC?

It depends on the BCD. My plate and wing are pretty light. I suspect, but
haven't confirmed, that they are lighter than my previous SeaQuest BCD.
It's not, on the other hand, as light as Mike's Dive Rite whatever it is he
has. His setup is, basically, a harness with no plate. For travel, it's
the most compact, lightest system I'm aware of.

Except for when actually traveling, weight is not the issue. Buoyancy is.
Even if they weighed exactly the same, my plate and wing would be less
buoyant than my old BCD. It displaces less water.

> BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
> weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
> to your destination?

I use a couple of Halcyon trim pockets on my waist band to, effectively,
turn my BCD into a weight integrated one. I use whatever is available where
I'm going. That does not, normally, involve renting anything. In my
experience, weights are part of the cost of the dive boat trip.

>> I considered this, but figured that sewing a pocket onto the skin on my
>> leg
>> would hurt more than the results would be worth.

> And here I thought you were a real man. Jeez! I suppose you could just
> super-glue it to your leg. Just be sure to get a pocket that matches
> your pretty pink dress.

I could, but I find it easier to simply leave the stuff I don't need behind.
I've had a long time to get my gear configuration the way I want it.
Everything I routinely carry has a place. My computer console, including my
compass, SPG and computer, is on a shorter than standard hose clipped off
where the DIR boys clip off their SPGs. It works for me because, like the
tech divers we've already discussed, I don't need to look at my computer or
SPG often. I start out a dive knowing, more or less, what I plan to do
during the dive and for how long. I wear a Citizen HyperAqualand watch that
not only times my dive, but gives me depth and temperature information.
That's what I use to control the majority of my dive. As the dive nears its
end, I check my gauge/computer more often, but still not all that often. I
carry spare lights on my shoulder straps. If I need someplace to put
something else, one of them stays on the boat. One pretty much always goes
with me. My knives, one on each side, are behind the D rings on my waist
strap. The pointed one is on the right, the blunt one on the left. If I'm
using my trim pockets, which I only put on my waist band when I expect to
use them, go between the knives and the plate. I have a D ring on the right
side, which is not DIR standard, that I use for anything specific to that
dive. When I'm hunting, that's where my lobster bag and/or stringer are.
On a night dive, my light is in one of my hands or, if I'm taking a picture
at the time, clipped off on the right side D ring. So far, I've not been
hunting and picture taking on the same dive. My safety sausage, a much
larger than standard one, is in the pocket that attaches to my plate,
between the plate and my back except on my Tortugas hunting trips. On those
trips, I use the sausage to signal the boat on every dive. Because of that,
I normally clip it to the same D ring as my console. Because we've had
problems with sharks each of the last three years, I clip a pouch for my
powerhead to my left chest D ring.

About the only thing I ever wish I had with me is my magnetic slate. It was
the best way to tell people new to the area about the things we seen that
I've found to date.

Lee




11 Jan 2006 12:10:33
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Whistler" wrote

> You know I was talking about dangling consoles. And if just an SPG, every
> other location gets in the way of something DIR like the long hose or a
> stage bottle.

Of course I do. My point is that a controlled versus dangling hose is not a
DIR/non DIR issue.

>>>Nah, you can tuck the hose inside the waistband. I take it along on all
>>>dives because I use it to communicate, poke in holes, bring out colors,

>> . . . cook fish. 8^)
>
> I've only got the measly 10 watt. Still, a woman I met at Cocoview who is
> a jeweller took to calling my light ``bling bling.'' Pretty funny.

Yuppies are so tiresome.

Lee




11 Jan 2006 12:15:27
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR


"Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > wrote in message
news:Ha%wf.361$9t6.111@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>
>> The most important point is that each diver should evaluate the diving
>> they do, try as many options as is practical and independently decide
>> what they like best. If that results in a complete DIR setup, no
>> problem.
>>
>> Another issue that really has not been addressed is that DIR is a system
>> concept. Taking just the equipment part of it, changes can be
>> problematic simply because many of the parts were chosen because they
>> work well with other parts.
>
> Hence my recommendation for taking the fundamentals course.

Actually, I was thinking more of your decision to follow a known system
rather than do a lot of adjustment yourself.

>> Changing any one of them often means other changes, sometimes undesirably
>> changes. Here are a few examples, right off the top of my head:
>> Snorkels are not DIR. It's not, however, that they're never handy during
>> a dive (they have no place in an overhead environment, but that's a
>> different issue), but that they interfere with deployment of the long
>> hose.

> They do, but the bigger reason is that they usually aren't necessary in a
> well planned dive, meaning good gas management, surface support, etc.

They're certainly not suitable for an overhead environment dive, but they
can be pretty nice to have on drift or shore dives. An awful lot of divers,
carried one on every dive, for a very long time before the were led to
believe that they are useless and exceptionally uncool.

> If they are part of the plan, then the recommendation is to get a folding
> one and put it in a pocket to be deployed only on the surface.

No pockets, remember?

>> Combination alternate/primary regulators are not DIR at least partly
>> because, to be comfortable they usually have longer inflator hoses that
>> are not easily controlled by those wearing a harness system.

> And the inflator mechanism makes for a third reg which is almost
> impossible to break. That doesn't even take into account that the
> inflater/reg combos tend to be kinda cheesy.

Some are better than others. My SeaQuest Air Source, the old style was a
pretty solid second stage and had a separate oral inflator mouthpiece. The
design has changed since. I don't have any idea what the modern ones are
like.
..
Lee




11 Jan 2006 12:18:16
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Dan Bracuk" wrote

> It depends where you travel. If you travel to a place that primarily
> caters to local dives, they might charge you extra. I don't know, the
> closest I have come to a place like that was in the Florida Keys, and
> that shop provided tanks and weights at no extra charge.

Part of that surprises me. Free use of weights is pretty much standard all
over Florida. Free use of tanks, however, isn't. If the shop you used
didn't charge for use of his tanks, my best guess is that he would have
given you a discount for using your own . . . or he charged everybody extra
for tanks even if they didn't use them.

Which operator are we talking about?

Lee




11 Jan 2006 12:21:14
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

> What's the difference in weight between your BC with the aluminum
> plate, and an average jacket/vest style BC?

It depends on the BCD. My plate and wing are pretty light. I suspect, but
haven't confirmed, that they are lighter than my previous SeaQuest BCD.
It's not, on the other hand, as light as Mike's Dive Rite whatever it is he
has. His setup is, basically, a harness with no plate. For travel, it's
the most compact, lightest system I'm aware of.

Except for when actually traveling, weight is not the issue. Buoyancy is.
Even if they weighed exactly the same, my plate and wing would be less
buoyant than my old BCD. It displaces less water.

> BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
> weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
> to your destination?

I use a couple of Halcyon trim pockets on my waist band to, effectively,
turn my BCD into a weight integrated one. I use whatever is available where
I'm going. That does not, normally, involve renting anything. In my
experience, weights are part of the cost of the dive boat trip.

>> I considered this, but figured that sewing a pocket onto the skin on my
>> leg
>> would hurt more than the results would be worth.

> And here I thought you were a real man. Jeez! I suppose you could just
> super-glue it to your leg. Just be sure to get a pocket that matches
> your pretty pink dress.

I could, but I find it easier to simply leave the stuff I don't need behind.
I've had a long time to get my gear configuration the way I want it.
Everything I routinely carry has a place. My computer console, including my
compass, SPG and computer, is on a shorter than standard hose clipped off
where the DIR boys clip off their SPGs. It works for me because, like the
tech divers we've already discussed, I don't need to look at my computer or
SPG often. I start out a dive knowing, more or less, what I plan to do
during the dive and for how long. I wear a Citizen HyperAqualand watch that
not only times my dive, but gives me depth and temperature information.
That's what I use to control the majority of my dive. As the dive nears its
end, I check my gauge/computer more often, but still not all that often. I
carry spare lights on my shoulder straps. If I need someplace to put
something else, one of them stays on the boat. One pretty much always goes
with me. My knives, one on each side, are behind the D rings on my waist
strap. The pointed one is on the right, the blunt one on the left. If I'm
using my trim pockets, which I only put on my waist band when I expect to
use them, go between the knives and the plate. I have a D ring on the right
side, which is not DIR standard, that I use for anything specific to that
dive. When I'm hunting, that's where my lobster bag and/or stringer are.
On a night dive, my light is in one of my hands or, if I'm taking a picture
at the time, clipped off on the right side D ring. So far, I've not been
hunting and picture taking on the same dive. My safety sausage, a much
larger than standard one, is in the pocket that attaches to my plate,
between the plate and my back except on my Tortugas hunting trips. On those
trips, I use the sausage to signal the boat on every dive. Because of that,
I normally clip it to the same D ring as my console. Because we've had
problems with sharks each of the last three years, I clip a pouch for my
powerhead to my left chest D ring.

About the only thing I ever wish I had with me is my magnetic slate. It was
the best way to tell people new to the area about the things we seen that
I've found to date.

No fair picking on my pink dress.

Lee





11 Jan 2006 12:21:09
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

> What's the difference in weight between your BC with the aluminum
> plate, and an average jacket/vest style BC?

It depends on the BCD. My plate and wing are pretty light. I suspect, but
haven't confirmed, that they are lighter than my previous SeaQuest BCD.
It's not, on the other hand, as light as Mike's Dive Rite whatever it is he
has. His setup is, basically, a harness with no plate. For travel, it's
the most compact, lightest system I'm aware of.

Except for when actually traveling, weight is not the issue. Buoyancy is.
Even if they weighed exactly the same, my plate and wing would be less
buoyant than my old BCD. It displaces less water.

> BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
> weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
> to your destination?

I use a couple of Halcyon trim pockets on my waist band to, effectively,
turn my BCD into a weight integrated one. I use whatever is available where
I'm going. That does not, normally, involve renting anything. In my
experience, weights are part of the cost of the dive boat trip.

>> I considered this, but figured that sewing a pocket onto the skin on my
>> leg
>> would hurt more than the results would be worth.

> And here I thought you were a real man. Jeez! I suppose you could just
> super-glue it to your leg. Just be sure to get a pocket that matches
> your pretty pink dress.

I could, but I find it easier to simply leave the stuff I don't need behind.
I've had a long time to get my gear configuration the way I want it.
Everything I routinely carry has a place. My computer console, including my
compass, SPG and computer, is on a shorter than standard hose clipped off
where the DIR boys clip off their SPGs. It works for me because, like the
tech divers we've already discussed, I don't need to look at my computer or
SPG often. I start out a dive knowing, more or less, what I plan to do
during the dive and for how long. I wear a Citizen HyperAqualand watch that
not only times my dive, but gives me depth and temperature information.
That's what I use to control the majority of my dive. As the dive nears its
end, I check my gauge/computer more often, but still not all that often. I
carry spare lights on my shoulder straps. If I need someplace to put
something else, one of them stays on the boat. One pretty much always goes
with me. My knives, one on each side, are behind the D rings on my waist
strap. The pointed one is on the right, the blunt one on the left. If I'm
using my trim pockets, which I only put on my waist band when I expect to
use them, go between the knives and the plate. I have a D ring on the right
side, which is not DIR standard, that I use for anything specific to that
dive. When I'm hunting, that's where my lobster bag and/or stringer are.
On a night dive, my light is in one of my hands or, if I'm taking a picture
at the time, clipped off on the right side D ring. So far, I've not been
hunting and picture taking on the same dive. My safety sausage, a much
larger than standard one, is in the pocket that attaches to my plate,
between the plate and my back except on my Tortugas hunting trips. On those
trips, I use the sausage to signal the boat on every dive. Because of that,
I normally clip it to the same D ring as my console. Because we've had
problems with sharks each of the last three years, I clip a pouch for my
powerhead to my left chest D ring.

About the only thing I ever wish I had with me is my magnetic slate. It was
the best way to tell people new to the area about the things we seen that
I've found to date.

No fair picking on my pink dress.

Lee





11 Jan 2006 18:27:51
Al Wells
Re: Questions about DIR

In article <Vi%wf.363$9t6.142@tornado.socal.rr.com >,
whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM says...
> I gather that inside they are very clean as well, easy to maintain and
> repair.

I have found chips from machining in every single Apeks first stage I've
bought. I always take them apart and clean them before I use them. Other
than that, I've been very happy with mine.

They're used for the reasons you mentioned, and the fact that the HP
seal is bulletproof and can be repaired ith a bit of emory cloth if you
didn't clean it and a chip gets caught in it. Also, the second stage is
a good design, with a bulletproof seal and a lever which is retained. It
is also easy to adjust the IP on the Apeks regs, and it can even be done
by someone else while they are on your back. The Apeks also work well at
lower IP's that some tech divers like.


11 Jan 2006 18:27:51
Al Wells
Re: Questions about DIR

In article <11s8deldvhleca0@news.supernews.com >,
Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com says...
> Personally, I figure if I got air, I'm not ditching anything.
>
> If I don't have air, I'm ditching the rig.
>
>

What if someone's taking your picture?


11 Jan 2006 15:24:04
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> There's very little drag difference. The big advantages, in my mind, are
> comfort (my current standard hose is till not as comfortable as my long one
> was. I have hopes of curing this)

By going back to a longer hose, or..?


> 2. Computer. Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use
> >> computers.
>
> > I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer. :)
>
> See?

Nope, not really.


> > I see no problem with having an SPG in the DIR position, as long as
> > it's not difficult to read.
>
> It's not difficult, it's impossible. The SPG has to be unclipped to be read.

Could it be held there with a retractor, instead of a snap?


> I use Halcyon plates, harnesses, wings, hoses and Scout Lights. Were I to
> do it again today, I might chose differently. There are cheaper, equally
> good options once you know what you want.

Are you saying that there are companies other than Halcyon that make
backplate/wing style BCs? I've seen lots of other back-inflation style
BCs, but I wasn't aware that any of them used a backplate like Halcyon.
I guess I just assumed that they were more like a regular vest/jacket
style BC, only with the inflation bags at the back. I also haven't
heard anybody say good things about them like I have with Halcyon.



11 Jan 2006 15:28:44
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> :BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
> :weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
> :to your destination?
>
> Most dive operators in the tropics provide tanks and weights as part
> of the "take you out diving" package. In fact, I've never seen an
> operator that didn't (in the tropics that is)

Okay, I thought maybe these weight-integrated BCs would require a
specific type of weight. If they can use any type of weight, then it
shouldn't be a problem.



11 Jan 2006 19:18:14
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Lee Bell" <pleebell@bellsouth.net > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Which operator are we talking about?

The Jim Wyatt one.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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11 Jan 2006 18:23:56
Re: Questions about DIR

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:28:44 -0800, Mick wrote:

> Dan Bracuk wrote:
>> :BTW, if you have a weight-integrated BC, do you have to carry the
>> :weights with you when you travel, or do you just rent them when you get
>> :to your destination?
>>
>> Most dive operators in the tropics provide tanks and weights as part
>> of the "take you out diving" package. In fact, I've never seen an
>> operator that didn't (in the tropics that is)
>
> Okay, I thought maybe these weight-integrated BCs would require a
> specific type of weight. If they can use any type of weight, then it
> shouldn't be a problem.

The guy in the boat prefers to haul your BC/reg/tank without
lead attached.

If someone unfamiliar with your equipment needs to help you,
will they know how to dump your weights?





11 Jan 2006 19:26:20
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

Whistler <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Well, my extra large stainless backplate with webbing, buckles, d-ring,
:STA, etc weighs about 11lbs. I'm guessing that most BCs are about
:4-5lbs, but I really don't know for sure.

My Riptide Trek weighs 5 lbs. It is a back inflate, soft back, BC
with an internal bladder and integrated weight pockets.

It feels heavier than my old stab jacket, which did not have weight
pockets or an internal bladder.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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11 Jan 2006 20:21:39
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

>> There's very little drag difference. The big advantages, in my mind, are
>> comfort (my current standard hose is till not as comfortable as my long
>> one
>> was. I have hopes of curing this)

> By going back to a longer hose, or..?

Only if I can't make the short one work well.

>> >> Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use
>> >> computers.
>>
>> > I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer. :)
>>
>> See?
>
> Nope, not really.

The topic was why you don't want to consider options rather than simply do
everything the DIR way. Using a computer is not the DIR way.

>> > I see no problem with having an SPG in the DIR position, as long as
>> > it's not difficult to read.
>>
>> It's not difficult, it's impossible. The SPG has to be unclipped to be
>> read.
>
> Could it be held there with a retractor, instead of a snap?

Not and be DIR. Otherwise, give it a shot and see how you like it.

> Are you saying that there are companies other than Halcyon that make
> backplate/wing style BCs? I've seen lots of other back-inflation style
> BCs, but I wasn't aware that any of them used a backplate like Halcyon.

Several do. Dive Rite, Buddy, Oxychec (sp?) and, I"m sure, others.

> I guess I just assumed that they were more like a regular vest/jacket
> style BC, only with the inflation bags at the back.

Most aren't all that much like a jacket style BCD. There would be no
practical purpose to making a jacket the inflated only in the rear.

> I also haven't heard anybody say good things about them like I have with
> Halcyon.

You haven't been listening to some of the right people. Halcyon got a
strong following a few years ago, largely because of their affiliation with
the WKPP dive team. The brand was pushed by some of the best known divers
in the world. Halcyon generally makes, or has others make, good products,
but they've had their winners and losers just like everybody else. Perhaps
Halcyon's biggest problem is that they are expensive. The manufacturer
controls the pricing. Anyone caught significantly discounting the equipment
soon finds they're no longer a Halcyon dealer.

Lee




11 Jan 2006 20:23:36
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Dan Bracuk" wrote

> :Which operator are we talking about?
> The Jim Wyatt one.

A good man. Too bad he's no longer operating a boat in the Keys. Jim did a
lot of nice things for a lot of people. He was particularly nice to those
he met here.

I thought you might have been talking about Banny Thorn, another Keys
operator that is no longer in business.

Lee




12 Jan 2006 07:58:19
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
>
>> If they are part of the plan, then the recommendation is to get a folding
>>one and put it in a pocket to be deployed only on the surface.
>
>
> No pockets, remember?

Say what? Two pockets. One on each leg.


12 Jan 2006 08:00:26
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Al Wells wrote:
> In article <Vi%wf.363$9t6.142@tornado.socal.rr.com>,
> whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM says...
>
>>I gather that inside they are very clean as well, easy to maintain and
>>repair.
>
>
> I have found chips from machining in every single Apeks first stage I've
> bought. I always take them apart and clean them before I use them. Other
> than that, I've been very happy with mine.

I guess I meant they have a simple design. Interesting tidbit about the
chaff, though.

> They're used for the reasons you mentioned, and the fact that the HP
> seal is bulletproof and can be repaired ith a bit of emory cloth if you
> didn't clean it and a chip gets caught in it. Also, the second stage is
> a good design, with a bulletproof seal and a lever which is retained. It
> is also easy to adjust the IP on the Apeks regs, and it can even be done
> by someone else while they are on your back. The Apeks also work well at
> lower IP's that some tech divers like.

Thanks, I knew about some of those vaguely, but they are beyond my
practical experience.



12 Jan 2006 08:06:47
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Mick wrote:
> Lee Bell wrote:
>
>>There's very little drag difference. The big advantages, in my mind, are
>>comfort (my current standard hose is till not as comfortable as my long one
>>was. I have hopes of curing this)
>
>
> By going back to a longer hose, or..?
>
>
>
>> 2. Computer. Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use
>>
>>>>computers.
>>
>>>I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer. :)
>>
>>See?
>
>
> Nope, not really.
>
>
>
>>>I see no problem with having an SPG in the DIR position, as long as
>>>it's not difficult to read.
>>
>>It's not difficult, it's impossible. The SPG has to be unclipped to be read.
>
>
> Could it be held there with a retractor, instead of a snap?

Could be, and in fact I once bought a retractor for that purpose, but
about two dives later I figured out the snap and I threw the retractor away.

>
>
>
>>I use Halcyon plates, harnesses, wings, hoses and Scout Lights. Were I to
>>do it again today, I might chose differently. There are cheaper, equally
>>good options once you know what you want.
>
>
> Are you saying that there are companies other than Halcyon that make
> backplate/wing style BCs?

Yes. Dive Rite is one. I haven't tried out the more recent ones,
because I'm very happy with my gear as is, but at the time (2000) I
tried all that I could find and I didn't like any of them, even though
in many cases it seemed like the differences were minor.

> I've seen lots of other back-inflation style
> BCs, but I wasn't aware that any of them used a backplate like Halcyon.
> I guess I just assumed that they were more like a regular vest/jacket
> style BC, only with the inflation bags at the back. I also haven't
> heard anybody say good things about them like I have with Halcyon.

Some people like oxycheq. I think Al Wells has some of their gear.
I've never tried it.

My buddy has a backplate that is called a Jeet Harness made by a guy in
LA. The harness is crap, but the plate is completely flat and works very
well for single tank diving, no STA required. The wing that the guy
sells is a little funky though, with the back dump on the right side,
which is bad if you use a canister light, and the inflator hose is too
long. I would like to get one of those plates for travelling if a
halcyon wing will fit it (it's not the weight, it's the shape...)


12 Jan 2006 08:10:17
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
>
> The topic was why you don't want to consider options rather than simply do
> everything the DIR way. Using a computer is not the DIR way.

To add a bit more detail, DIR recommends that you learn about deco to
the point where the computer in your head does a better job than the one
on your wrist.



12 Jan 2006 01:30:23
Jammer Six
Re: Questions about DIR

In article <MPG.1e2f150438799cef9897d2@news.verizon.net >,
Al Wells <al.wells@gmail.com > wrote:

> In article <11s8deldvhleca0@news.supernews.com>,
> Popeye@Finalprotectivefire.com says...
> > Personally, I figure if I got air, I'm not ditching anything.
> >
> > If I don't have air, I'm ditching the rig.
> >
> >
>
> What if someone's taking your picture?

Then I've got gas.

--
"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg.
Some of us didn't come back.
If you weren't there, you'll never understand." --Unknown Infantryman


12 Jan 2006 07:52:35
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > wrote in message
news:v_nxf.466$9t6.408@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> Lee Bell wrote:
>>
>>> If they are part of the plan, then the recommendation is to get a
>>> folding one and put it in a pocket to be deployed only on the surface.
>>
>>
>> No pockets, remember?
>
> Say what? Two pockets. One on each leg.

My legs don't have pockets, or the benefit of a wet or drysuit covering
(usually).

Lee




12 Jan 2006 05:43:45
Al Wells
Re: Questions about DIR


Jammer Six wrote:

> > What if someone's taking your picture?
>
> Then I've got gas.

Yes, but if you're Popeye, not necessarily your rig



12 Jan 2006 16:28:28
zippthorne
Re: Questions about DIR

Dan Bracuk wrote:
> "Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
>
> :Explain please. Your intent is not registering.
>
> What I said, was, if you tend to naturally adopt a head up, feet down
> attitude, negatively buoyant fins are not necessarily your best
> choice.
>
> The reason is that negatively bouyant fins will reinforce what is
> already happening and it will entail more effort to assume other
> positions you may want to take in the water. Getting horizontal would
> be one example.
>
> You mentioned adding trim to the top. This may be ok, it may not be
> ok. For me, probably not ok. I am admittedly a lot more dense than
> most divers, I need almost no extra weight to submerge (none with
> steel tanks in fact). Adding weight at the top to counteract extra
> weight at the bottom means I could become overweighted.
>

Uh.. move the tank higher? I find my orientation depends hugely on how
I set up my gear. I like to spend some time figuring out the best
position every time I use a new tank size.


12 Jan 2006 12:37:35
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"zippthorne" <zipp-post@usa.net > wrote

> Uh.. move the tank higher? I find my orientation depends hugely on how I
> set up my gear. I like to spend some time figuring out the best position
> every time I use a new tank size.

Maybe yes, maybe no. It depends on your first stage and how close it
already is to hitting you in the back of the head. Sometimes, getting
lighter fins is the best answer.

Lee




12 Jan 2006 11:57:04
-hh
Re: Questions about DIR

Charlie Hammond wrote:
>
> Here is a little demo you can do to help people understand the desirability
> of the 7-foot hose:
>
> [snip]
>
> This often will NOT convince someone, but it WILL get them thinking
> about how nice it could be to have a 7-foot arm / air-hose.

...or thinking about the SDI Solo Certification.


-hh



12 Jan 2006 15:59:15
Popeye
Re: Questions about DIR


"Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > wrote in message
news:J9oxf.1981$sd1.832@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> Lee Bell wrote:
>>
>> The topic was why you don't want to consider options rather than simply
>> do everything the DIR way. Using a computer is not the DIR way.
>
> To add a bit more detail, DIR recommends that you learn about deco to the
> point where the computer in your head does a better job than the one on
> your wrist.

<cough >




12 Jan 2006 16:56:57
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

Whistler <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:To add a bit more detail, DIR recommends that you learn about deco to
:the point where the computer in your head does a better job than the one
:on your wrist.

For multi level multi dive days, the computer in my head delegates the
following jobs to the computer on my console.

1. Keeping track of how deep I was and for how long.
2. The math


Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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12 Jan 2006 18:16:39
Mick
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> >> >> Every real DIR diver will tell you that they don't use computers.
> >>
> >> > I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer. :)
> >>
> >> See?
> >
> > Nope, not really.
>
> The topic was why you don't want to consider options rather than simply do
> everything the DIR way. Using a computer is not the DIR way.

Ah, but I do want to consider the options. That's kind of what I meant
when I said that I have no problem with using a computer. I also have
no problem with NOT using a computer, if I decide that that's the way
for me.


> > I guess I just assumed that they were more like a regular vest/jacket
> > style BC, only with the inflation bags at the back.
>
> Most aren't all that much like a jacket style BCD. There would be no
> practical purpose to making a jacket the inflated only in the rear.

Maybe I should have said vest style. For example, Zeagle makes several
back-inflation BCs that fit in that category. They have cummerbunds,
pockets, etc., but all the inflation is at the back.

There's a bunch like it on this page...
http://www.scuba.com/shop/product.asp_Category_3_page_1_recs_32

I don't think that I've ever seen a BC that I would call 'jacket'
style.



12 Jan 2006 22:20:27
Dan Bracuk
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:I don't think that I've ever seen a BC that I would call 'jacket'
:style.

Look here
http://www.scubapro.com/products/bcs/bcs.asp

The Classic BCs and pilot are jacket style. Kinda hard to tell from
the pictures with the Knight and Lady Hawks.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.

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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


13 Jan 2006 04:00:09
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Popeye wrote:
> "Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM> wrote in message
> news:J9oxf.1981$sd1.832@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>
>>Lee Bell wrote:
>>
>>>The topic was why you don't want to consider options rather than simply
>>>do everything the DIR way. Using a computer is not the DIR way.
>>
>>To add a bit more detail, DIR recommends that you learn about deco to the
>>point where the computer in your head does a better job than the one on
>>your wrist.
>
>
> <cough>

Would you like to say something in English?


13 Jan 2006 04:11:30
Whistler
Re: Questions about DIR

Mick wrote:
>
> Maybe I should have said vest style. For example, Zeagle makes several
> back-inflation BCs that fit in that category. They have cummerbunds,
> pockets, etc., but all the inflation is at the back.

I just got back from Roatan where I met a woman who had been given a
brand new Ranger. The quick release buckles on the shoulder straps dug
into her armpits something fierce. She wasn't using them, either.

That's what I found with the BC I trained in. It had all kinds of stuff
on it that I either:
didn't use;
didn't understand what is was for (nor did the dive shop
employees);
always seemed to grab when I was trying to grab something else.

I was sure I couldn't repair any of it on my own.


13 Jan 2006 00:38:09
Jammer Six
Re: Questions about DIR

In article <1137118599.749942.121770@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"Mick" <micknewton@direcway.com > wrote:

> Maybe I should have said vest style. For example, Zeagle makes several
> back-inflation BCs that fit in that category. They have cummerbunds,
> pockets, etc., but all the inflation is at the back.

I tried to make a Zeagle right.

Didn't work, of course, and now we use Scott's plates.

--
"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg.
Some of us didn't come back.
If you weren't there, you'll never understand." --Unknown Infantryman


13 Jan 2006 03:53:35
Popeye
Re: Questions about DIR


"Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM > wrote in message
news:dBFxf.35$Z3.16@tornado.socal.rr.com...
> Popeye wrote:
>> "Whistler" <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM> wrote in message
>> news:J9oxf.1981$sd1.832@tornado.socal.rr.com...
>>
>>>Lee Bell wrote:
>>>
>>>>The topic was why you don't want to consider options rather than simply
>>>>do everything the DIR way. Using a computer is not the DIR way.
>>>
>>>To add a bit more detail, DIR recommends that you learn about deco to the
>>>point where the computer in your head does a better job than the one on
>>>your wrist.
>>
>>
>> <cough>
>
> Would you like to say something in English?

Sorry.

Even my resolve slips once in a while.




13 Jan 2006 09:12:12
Grumman-581
Re: Questions about DIR

"Jammer Six" wrote in message
news:jammersix-8CCCA5.00380913012006@blackhole.shreve.net...
> I tried to make a Zeagle right.
>
> Didn't work, of course, and now we use Scott's plates.

All it would take to make the Zeagle 'right' would be to fit the wing on a
AL/steel backplate, right? I made my Dacor Rig II 'right' that way...
Actually, it's sandwiched between an AL one and a stainless steel one from
Scott...




13 Jan 2006 06:38:43
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Mick" wrote

>> >> > I'm a software engineer, so I have no problem with using a computer.
>> >> > :)
>> >>
>> >> See?
>> >
>> > Nope, not really.
>>
>> The topic was why you don't want to consider options rather than simply
>> do
>> everything the DIR way. Using a computer is not the DIR way.
>
> Ah, but I do want to consider the options. That's kind of what I meant
> when I said that I have no problem with using a computer. I also have
> no problem with NOT using a computer, if I decide that that's the way
> for me.

Just explaining. If you think back, you'll remember that considering the
options was my original recommendation. If you're like most of us, you'll
use a computer until you progress to serious technical diving. Only a small
proportion of divers ever progress to that level.

Lee




15 Jan 2006 13:59:22
Martin T
Re: Questions about DIR

Captain's log. On StarDate 11 Jan 2006 15:24:04 -0800 received comm from "Mick"
<micknewton@direcway.com > on channel rec.scuba.equipment:

: Are you saying that there are companies other than Halcyon that make
: backplate/wing style BCs? I've seen lots of other back-inflation style
: BCs, but I wasn't aware that any of them used a backplate like Halcyon.
: I guess I just assumed that they were more like a regular vest/jacket
: style BC, only with the inflation bags at the back. I also haven't
: heard anybody say good things about them like I have with Halcyon.

DiveRite was the first commercial vendor to start producing and selling back
plates. They did it already in the early 80's. Long before Halcyon even existed
as a company.

The History of the Back Plate:
http://dive-rite.com/TecTalk/backplates/backplate.htm

I have one Dive Rite (Rec Wing mainly for double tanks) and one recently bought
Halcyon (Eclipse for single tank), mainly because I got a good deal (including
their weighted STA adapter). But I would consider several other manufactures as
well if I was you. Oxycheq is one that I personally considered before I got my
DiveRite. Agir is a Swedish manufacturer who (according to a lot of users) has
higher quality than both DiveRite and Halcyon.

These are the manufactures I would start to check out and compare products from:

http://www.agir.se/
http://www.diverite.com/
http://www.halcyon.net/
http://www.oxycheq.com/Wings.html

Many, many more exists, so shop around, rent and test, and listen to other
divers experiences.

martin

--
Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/


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15 Jan 2006 10:19:05
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Martin T" wrote

> DiveRite was the first commercial vendor to start producing and selling
> back
> plates. They did it already in the early 80's. Long before Halcyon even
> existed
> as a company.

Not even close. I had a back plate in the early 1960s, long before DiveRite
even existed as a company.

Lee




17 Jan 2006 20:12:09
Martin T
Re: Questions about DIR

Captain's log. On StarDate Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:19:05 -0500 received comm from
"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net > on channel rec.scuba.equipment:

: "Martin T" wrote
:
: > DiveRite was the first commercial vendor to start producing and selling
: > back
: > plates. They did it already in the early 80's. Long before Halcyon even
: > existed
: > as a company.
:
: Not even close. I had a back plate in the early 1960s, long before DiveRite
: even existed as a company.

Ah, interesting. One learns something new every day!

What brand or manufacturer was that?

Did it look the same and work like the back plate of today?

(The DiveRite, Halcyon, etc, seems to be exactly the same as the first ones made
in the early 80s, but it would be interesting to know it it's originally from an
even earlier date).

martin

--
Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/


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17 Jan 2006 19:34:43
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"Martin T" wrote

> : Not even close. I had a back plate in the early 1960s, long before
> DiveRite
> : even existed as a company.
>
> Ah, interesting. One learns something new every day!
>
> What brand or manufacturer was that?
>
> Did it look the same and work like the back plate of today?

Darned if I know. The first one I used, as I recall, was simply a flat
piece of metal that gave the diver something to attach the tank and harness
to. Some time later, I had a plastic one, made by US divers, I believe,
that was about the same size as the modern ones but better designed to fit
the bank and tank. Sometime later, they made them out of hard rubber. I
think mine was Dacor, but it's been a long time. They were similar in
shape, but smaller than the metal ones I use today. If you look around a
bit, you can still buy onces like that. I picked up one a couple of years
ago to use with a 30 cubic foot tank I carry just in case my anchor gets
stuck on something, I need to cut line off the props or I decide to clean
some of the stuff that invariably grows in my props, rudders and trim tabs.

Lee




26 Jan 2006 01:37:38
VK
Re: Questions about DIR

A word on Halcyon BCs:

1/ My first double wing - the Explorer 55lbers or whatever they were
called - sprung a leak in the inflator hose the second time I used it,
taking me on an elevator ride from 45m to the surface (some other
factors, including a wrong prioritization of which of several problems
to tackle fist, contributed to this, to be fair)

2/ My new single wings - purchased in September, and barely 50-odd
dives on them so far - has a dodgy pull dump. The slightest tug and it
deflates entirely. The first time I realized this was when I was
demonstrating hovering upside down to some OW students. Fell on my ass
b/c I didnt realize the blasted thing was empty. I've taken apart the
mechanism, and everything seems to be more or less ok - yet the spring
just doesnt stay in position consistently. Now I just dive without air
in it.

3/ One of our other instructors also has these same single wings.
After 3 months of use, they've been leaking along the seams. He too
dives without air in his wings now.

Again, to give them credit, my old-style Pioneer wings lasted quite a
few years and a fair bit of abuse. But I am not exactly impressed by
their QC.

As for what is preferable: I like my wings, I teach OW in my wings, but
I am getting the wife a Seaquest with integrated weights. Having a
pocket is nice; having padding is nice if you are diving in T-shirt or
a lycra top; being able to adjust the trim weights is also a huge plus.
Whatever marginal improvement you get in drag with wings isnt really
worth obsessing over.

To me, if it ever came to *needing* to stitch pockets on my wetsuit, or
use that monstrosity of an ACB (I still have a pair - unused for 5
years, if anyone wants it), etc. - I'd switch to a BCD in a hurry. Why
add pointless complexity?

Vandit



26 Jan 2006 07:22:53
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"VK" wrote

> 1/ My first double wing - the Explorer 55lbers or whatever they were
> called - sprung a leak in the inflator hose the second time I used it,
> taking me on an elevator ride from 45m to the surface (some other
> factors, including a wrong prioritization of which of several problems
> to tackle fist, contributed to this, to be fair)

Both of mine predate yours and have never had a problem of this type. A
bunch of them sold between then and now, had a similar problem. They
replaced a bunch of them.

> 2/ My new single wings - purchased in September, and barely 50-odd
> dives on them so far - has a dodgy pull dump.

Are we talking about the bottom dump or is Halcyon now putting a pull dump
on the top?

> 3/ One of our other instructors also has these same single wings.
> After 3 months of use, they've been leaking along the seams. He too
> dives without air in his wings now.

There have been rumors about poor quality in the newer Halcyon wings. Have
you guys brought this to the attention of the company? While I've never
been impressed with their quality control procedures, I've always found them
quite willing to resolve problems.

> Again, to give them credit, my old-style Pioneer wings lasted quite a
> few years and a fair bit of abuse. But I am not exactly impressed by
> their QC.

Oops. Great minds seem to think along the same lines.

> As for what is preferable: I like my wings, I teach OW in my wings, but
> I am getting the wife a Seaquest with integrated weights. Having a
> pocket is nice; having padding is nice if you are diving in T-shirt or
> a lycra top; being able to adjust the trim weights is also a huge plus.
> Whatever marginal improvement you get in drag with wings isnt really
> worth obsessing over.

For me, the primary benefit has never been drag. I like my plate and wing
setup mostly for the weight (I don't wear a weightbelt any more) and the
trim.

> To me, if it ever came to *needing* to stitch pockets on my wetsuit, or
> use that monstrosity of an ACB (I still have a pair - unused for 5
> years, if anyone wants it), etc. - I'd switch to a BCD in a hurry. Why
> add pointless complexity?

Lacking a wetsuit or drysuit on almost all of my dives makes it easy to
agree. The only thing worse than the ACB was the soft keel weight, one of
the few things that GI and I agreed on. I got rid of my ACB a long time
ago. I either gave, or sold it to someone who thought they wanted one.
Tell me it wasn't you.

Lee




26 Jan 2006 08:30:11
VK
Re: Questions about DIR

Lee Bell wrote:
> > 2/ My new single wings - purchased in September, and barely 50-odd
> > dives on them so far - has a dodgy pull dump.
>
> Are we talking about the bottom dump or is Halcyon now putting a pull dump
> on the top?

Sorry, should have been more lear - was referring to the bottom left
rear dump valve

> There have been rumors about poor quality in the newer Halcyon wings. Have
> you guys brought this to the attention of the company? While I've never
> been impressed with their quality control procedures, I've always found them
> quite willing to resolve problems.

Yeah, I probably should send them an email. Thing is, given where we
are with no mail or Internet, by the time I send the blasted thing back
to them and get a replacement, the shipping and customs alone is going
to cost me more than a new BCD or wings.

> For me, the primary benefit has never been drag. I like my plate and wing
> setup mostly for the weight (I don't wear a weightbelt any more) and the
> trim.

For me, the biggest thing has been the crotch-strap (errr.. to clarify
- I like how it keeps the tank against my back).

The weight is also nice, but of late, I have been reconsidering it a
little bit.

I dont wear any weights when diving Al80s and a 5mil suit - with this
rig, I am nicely balanced. However, with a 3mil, even the 6lb steel is
too heavy and my trim is a little off as well (legs tend to go down).
So I actually find myself wishing for a BCD with pockets for trim
weights, where I can adjust the amount of weights up high as needed.

> Lacking a wetsuit or drysuit on almost all of my dives makes it easy to
> agree. The only thing worse than the ACB was the soft keel weight, one of
> the few things that GI and I agreed on. I got rid of my ACB a long time
> ago. I either gave, or sold it to someone who thought they wanted one.
> Tell me it wasn't you.

Hehe, no. When I came diving with you and Mike, I had already learned
the error of my ways. Did you know that I had actually bought 2 sets
of those ACB thingies?

Speaking of which, where is Herr Gray these days?

Vandit



26 Jan 2006 12:14:38
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

"VK" wrote

> Yeah, I probably should send them an email. Thing is, given where we
> are with no mail or Internet, by the time I send the blasted thing back
> to them and get a replacement, the shipping and customs alone is going
> to cost me more than a new BCD or wings.

There's not much to be done about shipping costs, but you have a US address
and there may be ways around customs taxes.

> For me, the biggest thing has been the crotch-strap (errr.. to clarify
> - I like how it keeps the tank against my back).

I took mine off. The harness alone keeps my tanks against my back. A much
more important factor, in my case, was the switch from buoyant to neutral
buoyant tanks. All but one of my full sized tanks are neutral or a bit
negative when empty. Since they never get empty during a dive, they are at
least a little negative at all times. They don't float around like a
standard aluminum 80.

> I dont wear any weights when diving Al80s and a 5mil suit - with this
> rig, I am nicely balanced. However, with a 3mil, even the 6lb steel is
> too heavy and my trim is a little off as well (legs tend to go down).

Once upon a time, I was in good shape too. Interesting that your legs go
down. The bulk of most men's mass is above their waist. You're not, by any
chance, using those incredibly heavy, very inefficient, I've always hated
them, Jet Fins, are you?

> Hehe, no. When I came diving with you and Mike, I had already learned
> the error of my ways. Did you know that I had actually bought 2 sets
> of those ACB thingies?

> Speaking of which, where is Herr Gray these days?

He's around. He may actually respond to you.

Lee




26 Jan 2006 20:55:13
VK
Re: Questions about DIR


Lee Bell wrote:
> There's not much to be done about shipping costs, but you have a US address
> and there may be ways around customs taxes.

Actually, as of last year, I no longer have a domicile in the US
anymore. I was hardly spending any time there. But I do have a lot of
friends and I can always have it shipped there, so point taken. Will
email them and see what happens.

To be honest, I am not that fussed about it - it really isnt a huge
problem diving without using the bladder... I probably use some more
air this way, but I still out-breathe most people in the group. I'll
probably take it back to the vendor in the summer and ask them to get
it fixed.

> I took mine off. The harness alone keeps my tanks against my back. A much
> more important factor, in my case, was the switch from buoyant to neutral
> buoyant tanks. All but one of my full sized tanks are neutral or a bit
> negative when empty. Since they never get empty during a dive, they are at
> least a little negative at all times. They don't float around like a
> standard aluminum 80.

That'd make sense. But dont you find that the whole rig still tends to
move when you turn sideways or something? Since I am doing a lot more
diving with relatively inexperienced divers there days, I am forever
turning around, looking at them, pulling them down, etc. I'd imagine
that without the extra point of contact, the kit would still slide
around a bit, especially as the arm loops are fairly loose..

> Once upon a time, I was in good shape too. Interesting that your legs go
> down. The bulk of most men's mass is above their waist. You're not, by any
> chance, using those incredibly heavy, very inefficient, I've always hated
> them, Jet Fins, are you?

I have developed a layer of .. insulation ... that, now that I am 32, I
am finally begin to concede is here to stay. No more six pack. But my
legs are still relatively fat free and reasonably strong, from
swimming/high-altitude hiking and so on. That's probably why they
sink.

Jet Fins? Good god no. I do use them with my drysuit, but when diving
dry, I have a pair of Cressi Space Frogs that are *perfect*. Like them
much better than the Mares Quattros I used to have - for the frog kick,
they give me serious bite and propulsion when I need it

> He's around. He may actually respond to you.

Goody!

Vandit



27 Jan 2006 00:37:16
Lee Bell
Re: Questions about DIR

> That'd make sense. But dont you find that the whole rig still tends to
> move when you turn sideways or something? Since I am doing a lot more
> diving with relatively inexperienced divers there days, I am forever
> turning around, looking at them, pulling them down, etc. I'd imagine
> that without the extra point of contact, the kit would still slide
> around a bit, especially as the arm loops are fairly loose.

I don't notice that. Perhaps my shoulder and/or waist straps are a bit
tighter than yours. I can tell you that the first think I do on pretty much
every dive is snug up the waist strap.

Lee




27 Jan 2006 12:30:54
Popeye
Re: Questions about DIR


"Lee Bell" <pleebell2@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:uhiCf.10127$3m4.9000@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>> That'd make sense. But dont you find that the whole rig still tends to
>> move when you turn sideways or something? Since I am doing a lot more
>> diving with relatively inexperienced divers there days, I am forever
>> turning around, looking at them, pulling them down, etc. I'd imagine
>> that without the extra point of contact, the kit would still slide
>> around a bit, especially as the arm loops are fairly loose.
>
> I don't notice that. Perhaps my shoulder and/or waist straps are a bit
> tighter than yours. I can tell you that the first think I do on pretty
> much every dive is snug up the waist strap.

I have unusually large shoulders, and my straps are -very- loose (no
crotch strap).

Like Lee, I tighten my waist belt significantly once I hit the water.


>
> Lee
>