30 Sep 2007 16:00:31
Frank Boettcher
Training conversion value, trail to asphalt?

So I go out Saturday morning to do a long run, planning on 14-15 miles
finish up with 12 miles in 2 hrs, 10 min and I'm completely worn out.

Last Saturday I planned and did 12 miles in 1:45, a little faster than
I wanted, but felt pretty good.

So what's the difference? I did the faster run all on asphalt. The
more recent,slower run was on my trail, with its assorted rocks,
roots,stumps, hills, stretches of soft sandy pea gravel, bridges and
boardwalks and clumpy bahia grass.

So in my marathon training plan I can probably consider that all
distances are designed on improved pavement and if I run a
proportionately shorter distance on the trail, the effort and time is
probably the same, and I've met my plan goal.

Am I missing something here?

Frank


30 Sep 2007 17:52:10
Ozzie
Re: Training conversion value, trail to asphalt?

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:00:31 -0500, Frank Boettcher
<fboettcher@comcast.net > wrote:

>So I go out Saturday morning to do a long run, planning on 14-15 miles
>finish up with 12 miles in 2 hrs, 10 min and I'm completely worn out.
>
>Last Saturday I planned and did 12 miles in 1:45, a little faster than
>I wanted, but felt pretty good.
>
>So what's the difference?

Last week you weren't a pussy, this week you are.


> I did the faster run all on asphalt. The
>more recent,slower run was on my trail, with its assorted rocks,
>roots,stumps, hills, stretches of soft sandy pea gravel, bridges and
>boardwalks and clumpy bahia grass.
>

Anf your stupid ass wonders what the difference was? Dumabass.

>So in my marathon training plan I can probably consider that all
>distances are designed on improved pavement and if I run a
>proportionately shorter distance on the trail, the effort and time is
>probably the same, and I've met my plan goal.
>
>Am I missing something here?
>

Gray matter.

Yours on the run,
Oz

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30 Sep 2007 15:28:24
D Stumpus
Re: Training conversion value, trail to asphalt?


"Frank Boettcher" <fboettcher@comcast.net > wrote

> So I go out Saturday morning to do a long run, planning on 14-15 miles
> finish up with 12 miles in 2 hrs, 10 min and I'm completely worn out.

> Last Saturday I planned and did 12 miles in 1:45, a little faster than
> I wanted, but felt pretty good.
>
> So what's the difference? I did the faster run all on asphalt. The
> more recent,slower run was on my trail, with its assorted rocks,
> roots,stumps, hills, stretches of soft sandy pea gravel, bridges and
> boardwalks and clumpy bahia grass.
>
> So in my marathon training plan I can probably consider that all
> distances are designed on improved pavement and if I run a
> proportionately shorter distance on the trail, the effort and time is
> probably the same, and I've met my plan goal.
>
> Am I missing something here?

I've always trained mostly on dirt, and have always simply gone by effort.
I prefer to run on fireroads where I can stretch out my stride and at least
run my downs fast, though. I'll race on single track, but train mostly on
fireroads because I can focus on effort level without terrain distractions.

On particular routes, I track my times to see if I'm getting faster as my
race goal approaches. I have no problem adapting to the superior footing of
asphalt in road races -- I just go faster.

For a test of my fitness, I like short road races -- 5k's are perfect for
me: there's lots of them in L.A., and they're no more tiring than a speed
workout for me, and in fact, are fine overspeed./strength work for a
marathon. (3 x 1 mile, no rest :-) Some of these have varying terrains
(my last 5k had 280' of climb and a bit of altitude), which requires
creative math to get a fix on your fitness :-).

An untapered race for me is about 3% slower than rested. I make this
deduction, translate to my goal distance using my favorite conversion table,
and that gives me a rough fix on my fitness.

If there are no test races, the next best thing is to do a tempo run on the
track or measured paved road somewhere. The track is not as dull as it
would seem for me; I'm simple-minded enough to enjoy the transition from
straights to curves, and that keeps me focused.




30 Sep 2007 18:37:18
I2Run
Re: Training conversion value, trail to asphalt?

"Frank Boettcher" wrote
| So what's the difference? I did the faster run all on asphalt. The
| more recent,slower run was on my trail, with its assorted rocks,
| roots,stumps, hills, stretches of soft sandy pea gravel, bridges and
| boardwalks and clumpy bahia grass.


For all the reasons you had mentioned, one need more concentration
on footing and less speed.

| So in my marathon training plan I can probably consider that all
| distances are designed on improved pavement and if I run a
| proportionately shorter distance on the trail, the effort and time is
| probably the same, and I've met my plan goal.

I am not sure if shorter trail run equates with longer distance on the
paved surfaces. Just for this reason, I avoid trails and hills for my
long runs to get the mileage I need while training for the marathons.




01 Oct 2007 01:47:09
Tony S.
Re: Training conversion value, trail to asphalt?

"Frank Boettcher" <fboettcher@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:d200g39panvns9kt14e16tb7nfshg44vai@4ax.com...
> So I go out Saturday morning to do a long run, planning on 14-15 miles
> finish up with 12 miles in 2 hrs, 10 min and I'm completely worn out.
>
> Last Saturday I planned and did 12 miles in 1:45, a little faster than
> I wanted, but felt pretty good.
>
> So what's the difference? I did the faster run all on asphalt. The
> more recent,slower run was on my trail, with its assorted rocks,
> roots,stumps, hills, stretches of soft sandy pea gravel, bridges and
> boardwalks and clumpy bahia grass.
>
> So in my marathon training plan I can probably consider that all
> distances are designed on improved pavement and if I run a
> proportionately shorter distance on the trail, the effort and time is
> probably the same, and I've met my plan goal.
>
> Am I missing something here?
>
> Frank

Specificity. Runs on relatively flat pavement stress certain muscles
continuously. Runs on mixed-terrain hilly trails spread out that stress in a
slightly different way, often making them easier on your body. Trail runs, I
would argue, give your support muscles a better workout, but at the expense
of the specific load generated on paved road runs.

For these very reasons, many people prefer trail workouts because they seem
to spread the stress and generate less injuries, though Donovan and others
dispute this. OTOH it could be argued they're less than optimal since
they're slightly less specific. My opinion is that as long as most of your
running is on roads, doing long runs on trails using time instead of
distance is fine, even for road racers, especially if the quality of the
experience is better. Beat up your legs in the race, not in training.

-Tony




30 Sep 2007 22:32:52
Lucy Fir
Re: Training conversion value, trail to asphalt?

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 01:47:09 GMT, "Tony S." <email_tonys@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>Specificity. Runs on relatively flat pavement stress certain muscles
>continuously. Runs on mixed-terrain hilly trails spread out that stress in a
>slightly different way, often making them easier on your body. Trail runs, I
>would argue, give your support muscles a better workout, but at the expense
>of the specific load generated on paved road runs.
>
>For these very reasons, many people prefer trail workouts because they seem
>to spread the stress and generate less injuries, though Donovan and others
>dispute this. OTOH it could be argued they're less than optimal since
>they're slightly less specific. My opinion is that as long as most of your
>running is on roads, doing long runs on trails using time instead of
>distance is fine, even for road racers, especially if the quality of the
>experience is better. Beat up your legs in the race, not in training.
>
>-Tony
>

If Donovan disputes that, he is a moron. Trail running uses far more
muscles because every step is different, no two are the same. Road
running is much more repetitive, and uses the same muscles over and
over. I am a dedicated trail runner, and I am amazed anybody would run
on paved surfaces at all. From my experience of trying a few miles on
pavement, I can say with confidence that if I had to run on streets I
wouldn't be able to run at all.
AH

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