28 Jun 2007 14:20:21
travisgod@aol.cominyrface
The immigration bill is defeated

A crushing defeat for Bush.

Trav



28 Jun 2007 16:02:32
Chas
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

<travisgod@aol.com > wrote
>A crushing defeat for Bush.

Yeah; according to Michael Chernoff, they're going to be forced to enforce
existing laws, add 20K Border Patrol Agents and build 750 miles of fence by
the end of 08.
Funny when you defeat a bill and get more action than if passed.
yay.

Chas




28 Jun 2007 17:38:40
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


<travisgod@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1183065621.826401.169280@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
Yup but the problem still exist.




28 Jun 2007 17:40:29
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


"Chas" <chasclements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:ts2dnZaJCO9OshnbnZ2dnUVZ_uKknZ2d@comcast.com...
> <travisgod@aol.com> wrote
>>A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
> Yeah; according to Michael Chernoff, they're going to be forced to enforce
> existing laws, add 20K Border Patrol Agents and build 750 miles of fence
> by the end of 08.
> Funny when you defeat a bill and get more action than if passed.
> yay.
>
Sounds like scare tactics and sour grapes to me. I rather doubt Bush will
move much at all; and the Democrats are certainly not going to force his
hand. Both parties want that Hispanic vote and will sell their souls and us
to get it.




28 Jun 2007 15:53:01
Sam the Bam
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 28, 2:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com >
wrote:
> A crushing defeat for Bush.

A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
rights and liberty, and our prosperity.

Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...


Sam




28 Jun 2007 18:04:09
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


"Sam the Bam" <samthebam1@lycos.com > wrote in message
news:1183071181.802399.321750@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 28, 2:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>> A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
> A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
> rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
>
> Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>
Explain?




28 Jun 2007 17:08:29
Chas
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net > wrote
>>A crushing defeat for Bush.
> Yup but the problem still exist.

And we can trust Michael Chertoff to solve it with available tools-
he said they'd start to enforce existing laws, put 20K BPAgents on the job,
and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
I'm so happy and proud.

Chas




28 Jun 2007 17:15:45
Chas
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net > wrote
> Sounds like scare tactics and sour grapes to me. I rather doubt Bush will
> move much at all; and the Democrats are certainly not going to force his
> hand. Both parties want that Hispanic vote and will sell their souls and
> us to get it.

They've just begun to find out that attracting the 'Hispanic vote' may cost
them the vote from everybody else.
After all, the Hispanic Vote didn't sway them to vote 'for' it. The Hispanic
Vote is being seen as Racist, 'foreign' interests, in Corporate Interests
and antagonistic to Americans in general.
The President of Mexico, who cannot give his own people the benefits of a
wealthy economy, called the vote a grave mistake. For him, it may well be a
Grave Mistake. His country teeters on the brink of socialist reform and the
French Solution to the problems of nobility anyway. Mexicans tend to kill
the losers in such social reformations.
I think we ought to let them get at it and try to make friends with the
winner a decade from now.

Chas




28 Jun 2007 22:29:04
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


"Chas" <chasclements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:o4adnY2HjsbaohnbnZ2dnUVZ_oernZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> wrote
>>>A crushing defeat for Bush.
>> Yup but the problem still exist.
>
> And we can trust Michael Chertoff to solve it with available tools-
> he said they'd start to enforce existing laws, put 20K BPAgents on the
> job, and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
> I'm so happy and proud.

Well color me skeptical. Hope for the best; but do not hold your breath




28 Jun 2007 22:43:08
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


"Chas" <chasclements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:BpmdnQTJI6hm3RnbnZ2dnUVZ_silnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> wrote
>> Sounds like scare tactics and sour grapes to me. I rather doubt Bush will
>> move much at all; and the Democrats are certainly not going to force his
>> hand. Both parties want that Hispanic vote and will sell their souls and
>> us to get it.
>
> They've just begun to find out that attracting the 'Hispanic vote' may
> cost them the vote from everybody else.

Well they may be paying attention to the fact that congress has the lowest
ratings in 35 years. However, people forget fast and this looks like a bit
of grandstanding to me. Dollar to a donut they dodge trying to apply hard
solutions to a hard problem and stick their heads in the sand. We still have
at least 12 million illegals in this country with more crossing the border
everyday.. I went through Houston recently. You can see them on the street
corners. We had better figure out a good solution or we will be repeating
the mistake Rome made when they let the Visigoths cross their border.

> After all, the Hispanic Vote didn't sway them to vote 'for' it. The
> Hispanic Vote is being seen as Racist, 'foreign' interests, in Corporate
> Interests and antagonistic to Americans in general.

By whom? It is becoming the largest minority in the US and will soon beat
the blacks if they have not already. I will bet that in today's crazy
world the politicians that voted for it will, in the long run, get the most
mileage out of it.

> The President of Mexico, who cannot give his own people the benefits of a
> wealthy economy, called the vote a grave mistake. For him, it may well be
> a Grave Mistake. His country teeters on the brink of socialist reform and
> the French Solution to the problems of nobility anyway.

He was elected by the narrowest of margins. However, the Mexicans did not
go for the declaration of his opponent, who declared himself a winner
either. He would have to say what he did because that tells the Mexicans he
is on their side. Merely good politics.

Mexicans tend to kill
> the losers in such social reformations.

Social reformations often become revolutions; and revolutions destroy the
wealth they intend to redistribute. What happens there will be most
interesting and certainly not in our best interests if that were the case.

> I think we ought to let them get at it and try to make friends with the
> winner a decade from now.

There would be no winner in that situation.




29 Jun 2007 00:00:52
Mark Goldberg
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

Chas wrote:

> I think we ought to let them get at it and try to make friends with the
> winner a decade from now.
>
> Chas
>
>
The guy who stands up for the legitimate immigrants, especially the
legitimate mexicans, will clean house. They actually paid the dues,
suffered the consequences of following the law and their struggles cost
the US much less and mean much than the annointed 'oppressed' who are
being used by the majority of leeches who are running to slobber over
them.
The enmity should be turned against Mexico itself. as a belligent,
selfish nation who have in true socialist manner asked others to pay for
their failures, for their indecency, and who must be called for what
they are... representatives of failing and failed economic systems, who
care even less about the US, except as how to leech, and threaten if
they don't get their extortion.

Mark


29 Jun 2007 13:38:32
Gernot Hassenpflug
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net > writes:

> "Chas" <chasclements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:o4adnY2HjsbaohnbnZ2dnUVZ_oernZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "Herbert Cannon" <hcannon18@cox.net> wrote
>>>>A crushing defeat for Bush.
>>> Yup but the problem still exist.
>>
>> And we can trust Michael Chertoff to solve it with available tools-
>> he said they'd start to enforce existing laws, put 20K BPAgents on the
>> job, and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
>> I'm so happy and proud.
>
> Well color me skeptical. Hope for the best; but do not hold your breath

Hmm, ordinary people don't matter to politicians, only those that
control the funds. If there's money to be made from building a fence,
you can bet it'll be done eventually. In this minus-sum game, the
taxpayer always loses.
--
BOFH excuse #386:

The Internet is being scanned for viruses.
...currently checking Usenet...
*Press ENTER key for report printout*


28 Jun 2007 23:26:05
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 28, 5:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com >
wrote:
> A crushing defeat forBush.
>
> Trav

It is one of countless defeats for Bush. He has failed as a president.



29 Jun 2007 13:47:15
Shuurai
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 28, 7:15 pm, "Chas" <chascleme...@comcast.net > wrote:
> "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote
>
> > Sounds like scare tactics and sour grapes to me. I rather doubt Bush will
> > move much at all; and the Democrats are certainly not going to force his
> > hand. Both parties want that Hispanic vote and will sell their souls and
> > us to get it.
>
> They've just begun to find out that attracting the 'Hispanic vote' may cost
> them the vote from everybody else.

Part of the problem is that our leaders realize that a large
percentage of Americans simply don't vote unless they're specifically
motivated. People don't bother unless they have a personal stake in
the outcome. They assumed that we'd all just ignore the issue.

> After all, the Hispanic Vote didn't sway them to vote 'for' it. The Hispanic
> Vote is being seen as Racist, 'foreign' interests, in Corporate Interests
> and antagonistic to Americans in general.

And it's all of the above.

> The President of Mexico, who cannot give his own people the benefits of a
> wealthy economy, called the vote a grave mistake. For him, it may well be a
> Grave Mistake. His country teeters on the brink of socialist reform and the
> French Solution to the problems of nobility anyway. Mexicans tend to kill
> the losers in such social reformations.

Well, if he's so worked about it why doesn't he do something for his
people so they don't have to flee his country in the first place? The
plight of Mexico is due mainly to government corruption; start by
cleaning that up.

> I think we ought to let them get at it and try to make friends with the
> winner a decade from now.

All the more reason to build a better wall.





29 Jun 2007 09:36:19
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


>
> All the more reason to build a better wall.

Fences make good neighbors.




29 Jun 2007 10:51:51
travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 28, 6:38 pm, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net > wrote:
> <travis...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183065621.826401.169280@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...>A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
> Yup but the problem still exist.

Eventually, populism has a way of finding itself out.

Most here believe in the high probability of a coming recession, even
depression. When this occurs, there will be no friends for illegals
who are taking jobs. People will get elected who actually rally the
people, or else there will be...trouble.

Trav



29 Jun 2007 10:52:41
travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 28, 6:53 pm, Sam the Bam <samtheb...@lycos.com > wrote:
> On Jun 28, 2:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
> A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
> rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
>
> Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>
> Sam

What? An amnesty bill for illegals was good for our prosperity?

Trav



29 Jun 2007 11:28:19
Shuurai
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


> > A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
> A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
> rights and liberty, and our prosperity.

This had nothing to do with rights and liberty; we are not obligated
to provide that to illegal immigrants any more than we'd be obligated
to provide it to folks in China. I really cracks me up to see these
folks and their supporters rally about their "rights" including the
right to be here in violation of our law. The only right we owe them
is the right to get back to their own side of the fence unharmed.

As for prosperity... don't make me laugh. The only people who'd have
prospered from this bill would be politicians and a few select
business owners. For the average American, this bill would have meant
rising prices on everything from food to health services, it would
have meant severe financial distress to our health care industry, the
education system, and to local law enforcement - and those are just a
few examples.

People who want to come to this country to work should be welcome to
do so - legally. Go through the proper channels, fill out the proper
*legitimate* paperwork, and go through the system.

> Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...

On the contrary. This has been a crack in that wall, allowing just a
bit of light to shine through. A whole lot of Americans stood up and
spoke, and let Washington know we're paying attention. This bill was
a flop from day one, which is why the folks who wrote it did
everything they could to hide it from we the American people, and from
the rest of the senate, until the last possible minute. They tried to
slide one by us and we caught them.

But just to be fair, why don't you explain why this bill would have
resulted in individual freedom and liberty, and also prosperity- for
Americans.



29 Jun 2007 15:08:04
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


>> Yup but the problem still exist.
>
> Eventually, populism has a way of finding itself out.
>
> Most here believe in the high probability of a coming recession, even
> depression. When this occurs, there will be no friends for illegals
> who are taking jobs. People will get elected who actually rally the
> people, or else there will be...trouble.

Uh huh and if there is recession or depression here it will be worse in
Mexico. That means the problem will be getting worse rather than better.
Unless we mine the border or starting shooting them the barbarian hordes
will be worse.




29 Jun 2007 18:20:02
Mark Goldberg
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

Sam the Bam wrote:

> On Jun 28, 2:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>>A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
>
> A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
> rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
>
> Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>
>
> Sam
>
>

Rubbish.... the attack upon the sovereign status of nations which the
universalists use to criticize such votes as this, represents the attack
upon individual rights, and liberty. The UN has expressed the right of
people to go across borders- meaning, that the failures of nations has
to be accepted by other nations. That- is the death of 'liberty' and
'sovereignty' and 'rights of individuals'

Mark


29 Jun 2007 16:40:50
Sam the Bam
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 28, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net > wrote:
> >> A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
> > A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
> > rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
> > Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>
> Explain?

America was built by immigrants. Vigorous folks,
the best and brightest, who came looking for a
better life... smelly and greasy and Catholic, doing
nigger work... who somehow built the, uh, poorest
nation on earth. Like your granddaddy...

The Meskins are the latest crew, nothing has
really changed. They work, they pull their weight,
more so than the native spoiled "legals". Look
at the Katrina fugitives, still demanding their loot,
a year and a half later... the Meskins find work
in a week.

Decline is fences and fear and police and
surveillance and red tape and the welfare/warfare
state. Strength is mobility and trade and
productivity and the free market (including the
labor market).

Today's economics lesson: anyone who produces
more than he consumes does not 'take jobs' or
'lower wages' or any such rot; he creates wealth
(which means HIGHER wages), and ultimately
new jobs.

The Meskins make $8/hr, and their labor value
is $15/hr, their employers are profitable, so
they are net contributors... unlike the army
of federal Gestapo hunting them, who are
a dead weight.

Sam




29 Jun 2007 16:43:04
Sam the Bam
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 29, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com > wrote:
> > > A crushing defeat for Bush.
> >
> > A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
> > rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
> > Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>
> What? An amnesty bill for illegals was good for
> our prosperity?

Harassing and deporting a productive labor
segment is bad for prosperity.

Your zero sum mentality notwithstanding...


Sam



30 Jun 2007 00:29:58
nemo_outis
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"travisgod@aol.cominyrface" <travisgod@aol.com > wrote in
news:1183139511.346612.67570@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:


> Most here believe in the high probability of a coming recession, even
> depression. When this occurs, there will be no friends for illegals
> who are taking jobs. People will get elected who actually rally the
> people, or else there will be...trouble.


The closest model for what will happen in a major economic catastrophe is
the Depression of the 30s (note the capitalization).

Yes, there were some civil disturbances (demonstrations, riots, etc. over
bread, labour, housing) and, yes, the elite classes did fear that the
masses would turn to communism, bu, in the end, no large scale threat to
civil order occurred (such as might cause the government to fall).

I see no reason to expect the fatter, lazier masses of today to be any
greater threat to the elite and its government short of outright mass
starvation (which won't happen).

Will there be animosity between groups? Of course - one has only to think
of the hostility to displaced Okies, never mind immigrants, in the 30s -
but, unpleasant and frequent though these incidents may be on a case by
case basis - I expect no *systematic* attacks on illegal aliens and so I
expect that such animosities will have little overall impact.

Regards,




29 Jun 2007 20:47:08
Kirk Lawson
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:20:21 -0700, travisgod@aol.cominyrface wrote:

> A crushing defeat for Bush.

And happily so.

Not his first. Probably not his last.

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk

FREE historic Western Martial Arts manuals:
http://www.lulu.com/lawson

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/

"well I wanna wrap it up and swim in it until I drown - my Moral Standing is
lying down..."

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts



29 Jun 2007 20:47:30
Kirk Lawson
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:26:05 -0700, tariq.1.rahim wrote:

> On Jun 28, 5:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>> A crushing defeat forBush.
>>
>> Trav
>
> It is one of countless defeats for Bush. He has failed as a president.

Define "success" and "failure"

Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk

FREE historic Western Martial Arts manuals:
http://www.lulu.com/lawson

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/

"well I wanna wrap it up and swim in it until I drown - my Moral Standing is
lying down..."

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts



29 Jun 2007 21:09:55
The Trucker
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:40:50 -0700, Sam the Bam wrote:

> On Jun 28, "Herbert Cannon" <hcanno...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> A crushing defeat for Bush.
>>
>> > A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
>> > rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
>> > Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>>
>> Explain?
>
> America was built by immigrants. Vigorous folks,
> the best and brightest, who came looking for a
> better life... smelly and greasy and Catholic, doing
> nigger work... who somehow built the, uh, poorest
> nation on earth. Like your granddaddy...

Let me try and help here: The USA was a naion of immigrants. The
immigrants came and were documented and they brought their families here
with them and they intended to be Americans. They did not come on "Guest
Worker" visas that were nothing more than indentured servitude licenses
for George Bush's financial supporters.

> The Meskins are the latest crew, nothing has
> really changed. They work, they pull their weight,
> more so than the native spoiled "legals". Look
> at the Katrina fugitives, still demanding their loot,
> a year and a half later... the Meskins find work
> in a week.

These people who are primarily from Mexico are here ripping off the
economy of the USA building their future in Mexico. They have no
intention of being Americans. They are here for a fast buck that will put
them way ahead of the rest of the people in Mexico.

> Decline is fences and fear and police and
> surveillance and red tape and the welfare/warfare
> state. Strength is mobility and trade and
> productivity and the free market (including the
> labor market).

Any time you want to institute a tax system based on asset overnership
(primarily land ownership) as opposed to sales, income, vat, and the like
which tax the actual producers while giving the owners a free ride then
I'll be willing to open the border. As it is, the owners get to fleece
the workers with all the new labor entering the pool. I see what you're
doing you lying Republican scum. Owners LOVE additional labor added to
the pool.

> Today's economics lesson: anyone who produces
> more than he consumes does not 'take jobs' or
> 'lower wages' or any such rot; he creates wealth
> (which means HIGHER wages), and ultimately
> new jobs.

Anyone who produces more then he consumes produces wealth for the owners
of land and other monpoly privileges. New, lower paying, jobs in service
to the rich are also created. Gee... If we keep going the way we are now
we can all be working 3 jobs intead of just 2.

> The Meskins make $8/hr, and their labor value
> is $15/hr, their employers are profitable, so
> they are net contributors... unlike the army
> of federal Gestapo hunting them, who are
> a dead weight.

Yes. Their employers get to keep $7 of the $15. Pretty good deal for the
rich people in America. A very bad deal for the actual PRODUCERS.

When will you people stop your damned lying?

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org



29 Jun 2007 21:24:02
The Trucker
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:43:04 -0700, Sam the Bam wrote:

> On Jun 29, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > > A crushing defeat for Bush.
>> >
>> > A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
>> > rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
>> > Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>>
>> What? An amnesty bill for illegals was good for
>> our prosperity?
>
> Harassing and deporting a productive labor
> segment is bad for prosperity.

While I am not for deporting people who have been here for 3 or more
years, your claim concerning prosperity is a blatant lie. And the
proper methodology would be to replace the illegal people with legal ones
by increasing LEGAL immigration for the next 3 years and at the same time
phasing in enforceable laws that mandated heavy fines for hiring
undocumented workers. ALL IMMIGRANTS and ALL LEGALIZED people would be
allowed to change employers like they were changing their underware. None
of this indentured servitude crap. Their legal "employment" will have
been certified by the Social Security system. Those who do not continue to
hold jobs will have to leave.

The immigrants to which you refer were not indentured servants. They
competed heads up with everyone else and changed employers when they got a
better offer. You have, thus far, identified yourself as a liar who's
real interest is cheap labor.

> Your zero sum mentality notwithstanding...

And your mentality is zero or less. Did you really think you could get
away with your prancing Republican pig shit in this forem?

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org



30 Jun 2007 06:03:07
gama4551
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

No! This is a defeat for all Americans.

"Kirk Lawson" <lawson@NO23637SPAM+dayton.ne > wrote in message
news:pan.2007.06.29.16.28.13.53119@NO23637SPAM+dayton.ne...
> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:26:05 -0700, tariq.1.rahim wrote:
>
>> On Jun 28, 5:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>> A crushing defeat forBush.
>>>
>>> Trav
>>
>> It is one of countless defeats for Bush. He has failed as a president.
>
> Define "success" and "failure"
>
> Peace favor your sword (IH),
> Kirk
>
> FREE historic Western Martial Arts manuals:
> http://www.lulu.com/lawson
>
> Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/
>
> "well I wanna wrap it up and swim in it until I drown - my Moral Standing
> is
> lying down..."
>
> "...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
> artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
> -Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
>




30 Jun 2007 07:27:52
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


>> Your zero sum mentality notwithstanding...
>
> And your mentality is zero or less. Did you really think you could get
> away with your prancing Republican pig shit in this forem?

Senator Kennedy changed sides?




30 Jun 2007 08:02:13
The Trucker
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 07:27:52 -0500, Herbert Cannon wrote:

>
>>> Your zero sum mentality notwithstanding...
>>
>> And your mentality is zero or less. Did you really think you could get
>> away with your prancing Republican pig shit in this forem?
>
> Senator Kennedy changed sides?

Kennedy gives Liberals a bad name. That idiot is being used by the Pugs
to paint all Democrats as supporting "Guest Workers". The Pugs know
damned well we can't just deport all 12M illegals so they offer that
as THEIR position. Forget about the "manesty" crap. It is the "Guest
Worker" part that is the real problem. Unfortunately, this means we will
have the same "Guest Worker" program we have now: The non enforcement of
the law at the employer level.

--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org



30 Jun 2007 15:14:29
Justin
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

Chas <chasclements@comcast.net > wrote:

: and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
: I'm so happy and proud.

Right, because walls work, like that one in Berlin...oh, oops...er, like
that one in China...oh, oops...er, like those ones in Belfast...oh, oops!

Justin




30 Jun 2007 10:01:50
Chas
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net > wrote
>.....The Pugs know
> damned well we can't just deport all 12M illegals so they offer that
> as THEIR position.

Sure we can-
and if we have them work on the Fence for a month before we let them go
home, we'll save money as well.

Chas




30 Jun 2007 10:05:19
Chas
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"Justin" <no@spam.com > wrote
> : and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
> : I'm so happy and proud.
> Right, because walls work, like that one in Berlin...oh, oops...er, like
> that one in China...oh, oops...er, like those ones in Belfast...oh, oops!

The other option is to shoot them on sight.
We have a million people a year walking across our borders like they weren't
there. We can't continue to subsidize them in any politically correct
manner, nor keep them out in a politically correct manner.
A Fence at least defines the Border, and keeps out the fat clumsy ones.

Chas




30 Jun 2007 17:01:44
Justin
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

Chas <chasclements@comcast.net > wrote:

: The other option is to shoot them on sight.

That's not an option. Can you determine the legality of an immigrant on
sight? I can't.

: A Fence at least defines the Border,

Right, because at present all those people don't actually know they've
stumbled into the US and perhaps think they're in Northern Mexico.

Justin





30 Jun 2007 12:23:24
Chas
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"Justin" <no@spam.com > wrote
> : The other option is to shoot them on sight.
> That's not an option. Can you determine the legality of an immigrant on
> sight? I can't.

Sure you can- legal immigrants don't jump the fence.
Try crossing the other direction and see what happens to you- try coming up
from Central America and see if you don't get robbed, perhaps raped,
certainly beat up and maybe killed by the Federales.

> : A Fence at least defines the Border,
> Right, because at present all those people don't actually know they've
> stumbled into the US and perhaps think they're in Northern Mexico.

Few live where they generally cross the border- it's some of the roughest
country in the US.

Chas




30 Jun 2007 20:11:19
Mark Goldberg
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

gama4551 wrote:

> No! This is a defeat for all Americans.

No.... you're entirely incorrect


30 Jun 2007 18:14:42
SPORTfighter
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 30, 12:24 am, The Trucker <mik...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:43:04 -0700, Sam the Bam wrote:
> > On Jun 29, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> > > A crushing defeat for Bush.
>
> >> > A defeat for anyone who cares about individual
> >> > rights and liberty, and our prosperity.
> >> > Another brick in the Great Wall of American decline...
>
> >> What? An amnesty bill for illegals was good for
> >> our prosperity?
>
> > Harassing and deporting a productive labor
> > segment is bad for prosperity.
>
> While I am not for deporting people who have been here for 3 or more
> years, your claim concerning prosperity is a blatant lie. And the
> proper methodology would be to replace the illegal people with legal ones
> by increasing LEGAL immigration for the next 3 years and at the same time
> phasing in enforceable laws that mandated heavy fines for hiring
> undocumented workers. ALL IMMIGRANTS and ALL LEGALIZED people would be
> allowed to change employers like they were changing their underware. None
> of this indentured servitude crap. Their legal "employment" will have
> been certified by the Social Security system. Those who do not continue to
> hold jobs will have to leave.
>
> The immigrants to which you refer were not indentured servants. They
> competed heads up with everyone else and changed employers when they got a
> better offer. You have, thus far, identified yourself as a liar who's
> real interest is cheap labor.
>
> > Your zero sum mentality notwithstanding...
>
> And your mentality is zero or less. Did you really think you could get
> away with your prancing Republican pig shit in this forem?
>
> --
> "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
> of society but the people themselves; and
> if we think them not enlightened enough to
> exercise their control with a wholesome
> discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
> them, but to inform their discretion by
> education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org




"While I am not for deporting people who have been here for 3 or more
years"

If you get away with murder for three years...should we let that go
to?



01 Jul 2007 09:13:23
Mark Goldberg
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

Chas wrote:
> "The Trucker" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote
>
>>.....The Pugs know
>>damned well we can't just deport all 12M illegals so they offer that
>>as THEIR position.
>
>
> Sure we can-
> and if we have them work on the Fence for a month before we let them go
> home, we'll save money as well.
>
> Chas
>
>
Paying people well, to work on the project, and giving them a few steps
up the ladder of legal immigration seems fair... Also, charging Mexico
for a portion of the costs of safely transporting illegals to their
homes in Mexico, seems quite the way to go. Also, thoroughly
demonstrating the failures of mexico to take responsibility for it's
social and economic failure seems quite the prudent thing to do.

Mark


01 Jul 2007 07:19:28
Chas
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"Mark Goldberg" <msgoldberg@optonline.net > wrote
> Paying people well, to work on the project,

Nope- or the same $0.10 a day they'd get in a Federal Penitentiary.
I'm tired of subsidizing them.

> and giving them a few steps up the ladder of legal immigration seems
> fair...

Nope; they've already demonstrated that they're crooks.

> Also, charging Mexico for a portion of the costs of safely transporting
> illegals to their homes in Mexico, seems quite the way to go. Also,
> thoroughly demonstrating the failures of mexico to take responsibility for
> it's social and economic failure seems quite the prudent thing to do.

Have it delivered in PEMEX oil.

Chas




01 Jul 2007 13:04:58
Mark Goldberg
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

Chas wrote:

> "Mark Goldberg" <msgoldberg@optonline.net> wrote
>
>>Paying people well, to work on the project,
>
>
> Nope- or the same $0.10 a day they'd get in a Federal Penitentiary.
> I'm tired of subsidizing them.
>
>
>>and giving them a few steps up the ladder of legal immigration seems
>>fair...
>
>
> Nope; they've already demonstrated that they're crooks.
>
>
>>Also, charging Mexico for a portion of the costs of safely transporting
>>illegals to their homes in Mexico, seems quite the way to go. Also,
>>thoroughly demonstrating the failures of mexico to take responsibility for
>>it's social and economic failure seems quite the prudent thing to do.
>
>
> Have it delivered in PEMEX oil.
>
> Chas
>
>
I meant pay them well.... and have MEXICO pay for it:^))

Mark


01 Jul 2007 19:05:18
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


>
> : and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
> : I'm so happy and proud.
>
> Right, because walls work, like that one in Berlin...oh,

It did work - you got shot if you tried to cross it.

oops...er, like
> that one in China...

They went around it.

oh, oops...er, like those ones in Belfast...oh, oops!

Belfast? How about the one in Boer war?




01 Jul 2007 19:29:20
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 30, 11:14 am, "Justin" <n...@spam.com > wrote:
> Chas <chascleme...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> : and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
> : I'm so happy and proud.
>
> Right, because walls work, like that one in Berlin...oh, oops...er, like
> that one in China...oh, oops...er, like those ones in Belfast...oh, oops!
>
> Justin

Well, it's always about building a better mousetrap.

Remember, these rats can swim too!

Mike



02 Jul 2007 07:32:47
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


<mikejc563@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1183343360.408242.113720@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 30, 11:14 am, "Justin" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>> Chas <chascleme...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> : and build that 750 miles of Fence to which they're obligated already.
>> : I'm so happy and proud.
>>
>> Right, because walls work, like that one in Berlin...oh, oops...er, like
>> that one in China...oh, oops...er, like those ones in Belfast...oh, oops!
>>
>> Justin
>
> Well, it's always about building a better mousetrap.
>
> Remember, these rats can swim too!
>
Underwater mines.




02 Jul 2007 07:33:31
Herbert Cannon
Re: The immigration bill is defeated


"Mark Goldberg" <msgoldberg@optonline.net > wrote in message
news:IiChi.20$qw6.19@newsfe12.lga...
> gama4551 wrote:
>
>> No! This is a defeat for all Americans.
>
> No.... you're entirely incorrect

Maybe he meant to say Mexicans?




02 Jul 2007 09:19:02
travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jun 29, 8:29 pm, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com > wrote:
> The closest model for what will happen in a major economic catastrophe is
> the Depression of the 30s (note the capitalization).
>
> Yes, there were some civil disturbances (demonstrations, riots, etc. over
> bread, labour, housing) and, yes, the elite classes did fear that the
> masses would turn to communism, bu, in the end, no large scale threat to
> civil order occurred (such as might cause the government to fall).

You must've missed the rise to power of that guy in post-Weimar
Germany. And that big war.


> I see no reason to expect the fatter, lazier masses of today to be any
> greater threat to the elite and its government short of outright mass
> starvation (which won't happen).
>
> Will there be animosity between groups? Of course - one has only to think
> of the hostility to displaced Okies, never mind immigrants, in the 30s -
> but, unpleasant and frequent though these incidents may be on a case by
> case basis - I expect no *systematic* attacks on illegal aliens and so I
> expect that such animosities will have little overall impact.
>
> Regards,

I expect that socialist subsidization of them is going to end in a
populist mess. Xenophobia is common in economic collapse.

Trav



02 Jul 2007 09:19:40
travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

> Harassing and deporting a productive labor
> segment is bad for prosperity.
>
> Your zero sum mentality notwithstanding...
>
> Sam

Huh? WTF, are you a CEO or something?

Trav



02 Jul 2007 17:14:16
nemo_outis
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

"travisgod@aol.cominyrface" <travisgod@aol.com > wrote in
news:1183393142.138531.225070@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> You must've missed the rise to power of that guy in post-Weimar
> Germany. And that big war.

I was speaking of USian experiance. And in that context the Great
Depression is the most valid benchmark. (Even if I had been casting my net
more broadly to include international experience I would not have gone back
to Weimar but would have instead pointed to the recent exeriences in
Argentina)

> I expect that socialist subsidization of them [immigrants/illegals] is
> going to end in a populist mess.

In a major economic catastrophe socialist subsidization of *everyone* would
cease.

Regards,






02 Jul 2007 11:16:47
SPORTfighter
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jul 2, 12:19 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com >
wrote:
> > Harassing and deporting a productive labor
> > segment is bad for prosperity.
>
> > Your zero sum mentality notwithstanding...
>
> > Sam
>
> Huh? WTF, are you a CEO or something?
>
> Trav

He's clearly too stupid.



02 Jul 2007 14:39:31
travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Jul 2, 1:14 pm, "nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com > wrote:
> I was speaking of USian experiance. And in that context the Great
> Depression is the most valid benchmark. (Even if I had been casting my net
> more broadly to include international experience I would not have gone back
> to Weimar but would have instead pointed to the recent exeriences in
> Argentina)

The US was an export and industrial powerhouse then, far more capable
of sustaining the Keynesian "stimulus" that was adopted.

You of all people, pretending to be smart and all of that, should
immediately identify that we now have far more in common with Weimar
than with the US of 70 years ago, the most glaring similarity being
the crushing debt burden we have and the nearly ubiquitous government
employment.

The bottom line was that the US in 1933 could have simply exported oil
to power its way out of that recession, could have produced its way
out by building factories to make things to dump into the ocean. In
fact, that is sort of what a major war is, really.

We can no longer do that, even sustain economic expansion any longer.
The only route out is inflation...ironic and a tragedy in that
inflation is what got us into this mess in the first place.

> In a major economic catastrophe socialist subsidization of *everyone* would
> cease.
>
> Regards,

There will be no precipitous collapse. Rather a sustained
decline...kind of like the Nasdaq crash, slower motion. There will be
plenty of unrest and plenty of scapegoats. Illegals will be the first
overboard, as it were.

I think Argentina is a good model to look at. But...there are
differences there too, most notably in terms of how far most have to
fall. From what I hear, historically wealthy families in Argentina
were not spared at all. Anyone whose money was in the banks and was
not tipped off lost all of that money, irrespective of the size of
your estate and how many servants you had or how white you were.
Apparently, it is far easier now to marry a simply mfing smoking hot
Argentine girl because those in that class are looking for a fking way
out and back to some prosperity and "Easy Street."

In the USA, I expect no pesofication. I expect either a permitted or
orchestrated bank collapse where the FDIC truncates deposits at $100K
and the rest is pure inflation, IOW, when you get it back, it's worth
20% of what it was when the bank folded. That is the easiest way to
fuck people, by playing accounting tricks.

However, this type of situation is inevitably incredibly
disinflationary as people start putting everything they own on sale to
cover their debt service. The biggest reason disinflation cannot
occur for long is because the sovereign owes too much. It must have
hyperinflation and they have just the guy in the Fed to do it.
Bernanke didn't get his nick, "Helicopter Ben," for nothing.

Expect cascade institutional failure to be followed by direct
monetization of lost accounts, mortgages, all kinds of "relief" for
all kinds of people...that is the only way to stave off total
disintegration.

I used to have discussions with a certain economist and I conduct the
thought experiments on this topic frequently, but I cannot come to
much of a consensus on whether there would be a disinflationary
collapse or a hyperinflationary one. If you would spend a few minutes
mulling the pros and cons, I'd like to hear your opinion on it. If
you respond with "USian" shit or any of this rabid crap about Bush or
the country or any of this other nonsense, including the Iraq War, I
am going to fuckin ignore you. Try to be lucid and thoughtful this
once.

Wholesale seizure provokes disinflation, or an apparent increase in
the value of cash as the price of everything drops due to supply/
demand imbalances as people put up everything they own for sale at any
price. It pulls cash out of circulation, drops credit supply,
etc...this is what occasioned the USA in 1930, disinflation due to
speculative bubble collapse.

Weimar, on the other hand, was also in a Depression, but had huge
socialist initiatives and was printing money to pay reparations,
salaries, everything. Their experience was of hyperinflation given
mostly the same economic circumstances as the rest of the world
endured.

Argentina was more like Weimar in its economic foundation, and it
experienced pesofication and hyperinflation after a brief period of
apparent deflation, probably disinflation, as the GDP declined in
1999. My research indicates that Argentina's experience was primarily
severe inflation, 10% MoM price increases, etc., because the currency
was dogshit. However, the stock index lost 75% of its value, so there
is considerable evidence of severe disinflation in certain sectors.
One must assume that land, consumer items, etc., must have sustained
*some* price decrease because people had to hock things just to
eat...or maybe there is not such pervasive indebtedness there that
this did not occur. But, given an economic collapse...price
increases, I suppose, in essentials must be inevitable, while the
prices of cars and nonessentials remain either flat or fall due to
lack of demand and grossly excess supply, before the overcapacity
disappears from the market due to pervasive bankruptcy and lack of
demand, whereupon prices renormalize to scales experienced by
essentials. As for prices for services, this is another
unknown...massive unemployment disinflates with respect to labor
hours. Either way, things go into the shitter.

Obviously, what constitutes the operative difference between these
outcomes is critical for deciding what to do with one's assets. If
disinflation were to occur, it would be critical to hold physical
cash, unless it were pesofied, until the inflation engine were cranked
up, at which point physical assets would be preferable. Also, there
is the issue of the POG during such a time...is it going to be subject
to disinflation or would such a thing be purely secular...

Trav



02 Jul 2007 22:28:38
Kirk Lawson
Re: The immigration bill is defeated

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 06:03:07 -0500, gama4551 wrote:

> No! This is a defeat for all Americans.

Your inability to define "success" or "defeat" in this context is duly
noted.

>
> "Kirk Lawson" <lawson@NO23637SPAM+dayton.ne> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.06.29.16.28.13.53119@NO23637SPAM+dayton.ne...
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:26:05 -0700, tariq.1.rahim wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 28, 5:20 pm, "travis...@aol.cominyrface" <travis...@aol.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> A crushing defeat forBush.
>>>>
>>>> Trav
>>>
>>> It is one of countless defeats for Bush. He has failed as a president.
>>
>> Define "success" and "failure"
>>
>> Peace favor your sword (IH),
>> Kirk
>>
>> FREE historic Western Martial Arts manuals:
>> http://www.lulu.com/lawson
>>
>> Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/
>>
>> "well I wanna wrap it up and swim in it until I drown - my Moral Standing
>> is
>> lying down..."
>>
>> "...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
>> artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
>> -Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
>>

--
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk

FREE historic Western Martial Arts manuals:
http://www.lulu.com/lawson

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/

"well I wanna wrap it up and swim in it until I drown - my Moral Standing is
lying down..."

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts