30 Jul 2003 12:43:32
Chas
Colorado, the School and the Police

An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html

Chas
"It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!"




30 Jul 2003 19:46:44
Badger North
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:43:32 -0700, "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net >
wrote:

>An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
>http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html

What a great article.

I love The Smoking Gun.

Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm


30 Jul 2003 21:22:44
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:Oy2dnf6UMeJpjLWiU-KYvg@comcast.com...
> An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html



That article was about your son right? I can see it all now. The poor
innocent boy being picked on was actually a mouthy, disrespectful little
shithead. He then gets shat on for being a shit head. As I say, if that was
about your son he is just like his dad. If it was not about your son, you
ought to meet the guy in question.




30 Jul 2003 16:30:52
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> That article was about your son right?

No.

> .....If it was not about your son, you
> ought to meet the guy in question.

It was written by a lawyer on behalf of someone exposed to fascist thugs
like you.
Criminalizing administrative questions ought to suit you from your jackboots
to stahlhelm.

Chas




31 Jul 2003 07:47:15
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Oy2dnf6UMeJpjLWiU-KYvg@comcast.com...
> > An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
> > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html
>
> That article was about your son right? I can see it all now. The poor
> innocent boy being picked on was actually a mouthy, disrespectful little
> shithead. He then gets shat on for being a shit head.

And you think it's OK for someone to face legal action for no crime other then
being "mouthy" huh?

Did you ever work for Stalin?

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


31 Jul 2003 13:23:44
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:fJWdnQtFAbeh2rWiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > That article was about your son right?
>
> No.


Wow, you mean your son was in trouble and "beaten up" as a result of an
incident at school, just like this guy?


>
> > .....If it was not about your son, you
> > ought to meet the guy in question.
>
> It was written by a lawyer on behalf of someone exposed to fascist thugs
> like you.


You mean facist thugs who hurl abuse at school teachers? Who have no trouble
using foul language at the drop of a hat, even to people in positions of
authority, hinting they were brought up in such an atmosphere and were
probably raised by morons? Oh hang on that was the "boy".



> Criminalizing administrative questions ought to suit you from your
jackboots
> to stahlhelm.

LOL You want my jackboots dont you?



>
> Chas
>
>




31 Jul 2003 13:24:49
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F2901C3.AFC2BF12@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:Oy2dnf6UMeJpjLWiU-KYvg@comcast.com...
> > > An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
> > > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html
> >
> > That article was about your son right? I can see it all now. The poor
> > innocent boy being picked on was actually a mouthy, disrespectful little
> > shithead. He then gets shat on for being a shit head.
>
> And you think it's OK for someone to face legal action for no crime other
then
> being "mouthy" huh?


There is actually an offence for that. If you swear in public you are liable
to arrest after a warning under the Public Order Act section 5 - again you
can go look it up if you like but over here we dont want undesirables with
potty mouths lowering the tones of our streets.








31 Jul 2003 07:48:28
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> Wow, you mean your son was in trouble and "beaten up" as a result of an
> incident at school, just like this guy?

Yup.
In the 'zero tolerance' atmosphere post-Columbine, it has become a real
difficulty. The two cops that smacked my boy around have had serious
complaints about brutality against children before.
His is not an isolated incident.

> You mean facist thugs who hurl abuse at school teachers? Who have no
trouble
> using foul language at the drop of a hat, even to people in positions of
> authority, hinting they were brought up in such an atmosphere and were
> probably raised by morons? Oh hang on that was the "boy".

So you think that 'calling names' should be a criminal offence- rather than
an administrative question?
You think that a child should get a criminal record, as well as sanctions,
for being impolite?

> LOL You want my jackboots dont you?

Yeah; inserted in your rectum.
Sideways.

Chas




31 Jul 2003 13:58:17
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:98idneGwZNfUg7SiXTWJjA@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > Wow, you mean your son was in trouble and "beaten up" as a result of an
> > incident at school, just like this guy?
>
> Yup.
> In the 'zero tolerance' atmosphere post-Columbine, it has become a real
> difficulty. The two cops that smacked my boy around have had serious
> complaints about brutality against children before.
> His is not an isolated incident.


Well then, of course if cops did that then that is inexcusable behaviour.


>
> > You mean facist thugs who hurl abuse at school teachers? Who have no
> trouble
> > using foul language at the drop of a hat, even to people in positions of
> > authority, hinting they were brought up in such an atmosphere and were
> > probably raised by morons? Oh hang on that was the "boy".
>
> So you think that 'calling names' should be a criminal offence- rather
than
> an administrative question?


It is. Or rather, swearing in public is a criminal offence.



> You think that a child should get a criminal record, as well as sanctions,
> for being impolite?


He can do.

>
> > LOL You want my jackboots dont you?
>
> Yeah; inserted in your rectum.
> Sideways.


LOL.


>
> Chas
>
>




31 Jul 2003 13:59:34
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:cNqdnaAmO-U6g7SiU-KYuQ@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > There is actually an offence for that. If you swear in public you are
> liable
> > to arrest after a warning under the Public Order Act section 5 - again
you
> > can go look it up if you like but over here we dont want undesirables
with
> > potty mouths lowering the tones of our streets.
>
> And you're willing to beat up a child to enforce it?


No. Only if they attempt to fight. Then they would be restrained.


> And you don't see anything wrong with that?



Yes I see something wrong with beating up a child to enforce it. If that
child was compliant then that is very wrong.

>
> Chas
>
>




31 Jul 2003 10:03:08
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F2901C3.AFC2BF12@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > >
> > > "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Oy2dnf6UMeJpjLWiU-KYvg@comcast.com...
> > > > An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
> > > > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html
> > >
> > > That article was about your son right? I can see it all now. The poor
> > > innocent boy being picked on was actually a mouthy, disrespectful little
> > > shithead. He then gets shat on for being a shit head.
> >
> > And you think it's OK for someone to face legal action for no crime other
> then
> > being "mouthy" huh?
>
> There is actually an offence for that. If you swear in public you are liable
> to arrest after a warning under the Public Order Act section 5 - again you
> can go look it up if you like but over here we dont want undesirables with
> potty mouths lowering the tones of our streets.

"Undesireables"
"Potty mouths"

hahahaha

you're too funy


(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


31 Jul 2003 09:33:02
hcannon18
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message
news:bgb79o$ou9$3@titan.btinternet.com...
>
> "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:98idneGwZNfUg7SiXTWJjA@comcast.com...
> > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > Wow, you mean your son was in trouble and "beaten up" as a result of
an
> > > incident at school, just like this guy?
> >
> > Yup.
> > In the 'zero tolerance' atmosphere post-Columbine, it has become a real
> > difficulty. The two cops that smacked my boy around have had serious
> > complaints about brutality against children before.
> > His is not an isolated incident.
>
>
> Well then, of course if cops did that then that is inexcusable behaviour.
>
>
> >
> > > You mean facist thugs who hurl abuse at school teachers? Who have no
> > trouble
> > > using foul language at the drop of a hat, even to people in positions
of
> > > authority, hinting they were brought up in such an atmosphere and were
> > > probably raised by morons? Oh hang on that was the "boy".
> >
> > So you think that 'calling names' should be a criminal offence- rather
> than
> > an administrative question?
>
>
> It is. Or rather, swearing in public is a criminal offence.
>
>
>
> > You think that a child should get a criminal record, as well as
sanctions,
> > for being impolite?
>
>
> He can do.
>
> >
> > > LOL You want my jackboots dont you?
> >
> > Yeah; inserted in your rectum.
> > Sideways.
>
>
> LOL.
>
>
> >
> > Chas
> >
> >Hence the wisdom of the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights. Thanks
Leon.
>
>




31 Jul 2003 10:16:42
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Chas wrote:

> > LOL You want my jackboots dont you?
>
> Yeah; inserted in your rectum.
> Sideways.

Can't you find something that'd be a closer fit?

Watermelons? VW Beetle?

Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


31 Jul 2003 22:22:15
Fraser Johnston
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:Oy2dnf6UMeJpjLWiU-KYvg@comcast.com...
> An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html
>
> Chas
> "It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!"
>
>

Got halfway through the article and then realised I couldn't be fucked
finishing it. ; )

Fraser (The other F word)





31 Jul 2003 16:26:20
Karim Rashad
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:18:07 +0000, Chas wrote:
> An institutional policy of
> brutalizing children and trying to get them into the criminal system at an
> early age.

Why do you reckon that happens, i.e. what are the reasons behind it? Do
you think it's to do with the type of people these policemen are, or is it
to do with the policemans' higher-ups in some way?

--
Karim Rashad <remove SPAMFREE: krashad@SPAMFREEorbisuk.com >



31 Jul 2003 10:06:34
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Karim Rashad" <me@privacy.net > wrote
.... > > An institutional policy of
> > brutalizing children and trying to get them into the criminal system at
an
> > early age.
> Why do you reckon that happens, i.e. what are the reasons behind it? Do
> you think it's to do with the type of people these policemen are, or is it
> to do with the policemans' higher-ups in some way?

I think it's the imposition of a police state.
They can look at any financial transaction now; under IRS regs.
They can look at you anytime you're out and about; Drivers Permission
They can regulate your sexuality.
They can deny you medical access; Doctor's Permissions to buy medicines.
They can tap you, wire you, spy on you from the sky; read your computer,
listen to your phone calls on wireless-
They arrogate the power to settle *any* question in dispute; from the
elders, from the religious courts, from the Council.
They're the fist for the grasping hand of gummit, and they want the kids to
know that by the time they grow hair on their balls, and be afraid.
'If you'll take the King's Shilling, you'll do the King's work.'

Chas




31 Jul 2003 16:54:43
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F29219C.165E439F@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> > news:3F2901C3.AFC2BF12@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:Oy2dnf6UMeJpjLWiU-KYvg@comcast.com...
> > > > > An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
> > > > > http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html
> > > >
> > > > That article was about your son right? I can see it all now. The
poor
> > > > innocent boy being picked on was actually a mouthy, disrespectful
little
> > > > shithead. He then gets shat on for being a shit head.
> > >
> > > And you think it's OK for someone to face legal action for no crime
other
> > then
> > > being "mouthy" huh?
> >
> > There is actually an offence for that. If you swear in public you are
liable
> > to arrest after a warning under the Public Order Act section 5 - again
you
> > can go look it up if you like but over here we dont want undesirables
with
> > potty mouths lowering the tones of our streets.
>
> "Undesireables"
> "Potty mouths"
>
> hahahaha
>
> you're too funy


Glad you are finally catching on to my sense of humour.



>
>
> (IH)
> --
> "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge
> of their use."
> -Achille Marozzo, 1536
> --
> "...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists
> gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
> -Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts




31 Jul 2003 10:14:18
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bgb79o$ou9$3@titan.btinternet.com>...
> "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:98idneGwZNfUg7SiXTWJjA@comcast.com...

> > So you think that 'calling names' should be a criminal offence- rather
> than
> > an administrative question?
>
> It is. Or rather, swearing in public is a criminal offence.

Wow, your country really does suck. Got a cite for that Leon, or are
you making shit up?

Pierre

PS: Does the internet count as "public"? If so, if I go to the UK
will I get my fucking ass arrested?


31 Jul 2003 17:35:51
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0307310914.2184be84@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bgb79o$ou9$3@titan.btinternet.com >...
> > "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:98idneGwZNfUg7SiXTWJjA@comcast.com...
>
> Pierre
>
> PS: Does the internet count as "public"? If so, if I go to the UK
> will I get my fucking ass arrested?


No cos I just gave you your first warning.





31 Jul 2003 14:31:25
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Coldblood wrote:
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F2924CA.40A81507@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Chas wrote:
> >
> > > > LOL You want my jackboots dont you?
> > >
> > > Yeah; inserted in your rectum.
> > > Sideways.
> >
> > Can't you find something that'd be a closer fit?
> >
> > Watermelons? VW Beetle?
> >
>
> kirk, you have been here entirely too long , its begining to alter your
> personality lol

hehe Well, that and I'm grumpy today. I'm trying to "demo" the RSS feed
functions at the PostNuke website and they don't tell you frigg'n anywhere what
the URL Path is.

<grumble >

>
> <clap clap clap >
>
> that was funny as hell though.

<Flourishing Bow >

Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


31 Jul 2003 19:16:45
and drain deez nuts
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

>
>An interesting case- filed about 40 mi. from me.
>http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/fword1.html
>
>Chas
>"It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!"
>
>
>

Expel the unruly son of a bitch.

Trav


31 Jul 2003 13:57:03
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bgbjvk$n9m$2@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0307310914.2184be84@posting.google.com...

> Public Order Act section 5 covers the power to arrest for using abusive
> threatening or insulting words, language or behaviour after a warning.
> Section 4 covers when it is used directly at someone to provoke violence and
> 4a is in the middle of the two.

Yeah, I saw your post on this after I asked.

> I believe your country has something
> similar. Get a clue.

It would have no effect for anything that wasn't blatantly
provocative. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies. My hometown
gives out fines for "swearing", but the bylaw is unenforceable and
I've never heard of criminal sanctions for it.

Pierre


31 Jul 2003 21:20:20
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0307311254.253f6f5a@posting.google.com...
> > > PS: Does the internet count as "public"? If so, if I go to the UK
> > > will I get my fucking ass arrested?
> >
> > No cos I just gave you your first warning.
>
> Fine. Fuck you Leon, and fuck your momma, and fuck everyone who ever
heard of you.
>
> Will that do?

Yes. Now you are an international fugitive.




31 Jul 2003 17:53:47
DougieŽ
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:20:20 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
<Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:

>"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
>> > > PS: Does the internet count as "public"? If so, if I go to the UK
>> > > will I get my fucking ass arrested?

>"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> > No cos I just gave you your first warning.

>"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
>> Fine. Fuck you Leon, and fuck your momma, and fuck everyone who ever
>heard of you.
>> Will that do?

>Yes. Now you are an international fugitive.

Hey! How come he gets to be an international fugitive?

DougieŽ
http://fatehfightclub.tripod.com/fateh.html
http://canamma.efoundation.net


31 Jul 2003 21:59:16
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"DougieŽ" <dougee.REMOVE@canada.REMOVE.com > wrote in message
news:rt3jivc5ntn5nalcdq9esdraairtmv9ilh@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:20:20 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
> <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> >> > > PS: Does the internet count as "public"? If so, if I go to the UK
> >> > > will I get my fucking ass arrested?
>
> >"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> > No cos I just gave you your first warning.
>
> >"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> >> Fine. Fuck you Leon, and fuck your momma, and fuck everyone who ever
> >heard of you.
> >> Will that do?
>
> >Yes. Now you are an international fugitive.
>
> Hey! How come he gets to be an international fugitive?


He had a potty mouth in public after a warning!


>
> DougieŽ
> http://fatehfightclub.tripod.com/fateh.html
> http://canamma.efoundation.net




01 Aug 2003 13:36:28
Badger North
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:59:16 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
<Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:

>He had a potty mouth in public after a warning!

Me too! I wanna be an international fugitive!

Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm


01 Aug 2003 09:19:54
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bgc3fk$8cg$2@sparta.btinternet.com>...
> "DougieŽ" <dougee.REMOVE@canada.REMOVE.com> wrote in message
> news:rt3jivc5ntn5nalcdq9esdraairtmv9ilh@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:20:20 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
> > <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > >"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > >> > > PS: Does the internet count as "public"? If so, if I go to the UK
> > >> > > will I get my fucking ass arrested?
>
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > >> > No cos I just gave you your first warning.
>
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > >> Fine. Fuck you Leon, and fuck your momma, and fuck everyone who ever
> heard of you.
> > >> Will that do?
>
> > >Yes. Now you are an international fugitive.
> >
> > Hey! How come he gets to be an international fugitive?
>
> He had a potty mouth in public after a warning!

Damn! There goes my coffee!

That's some funny shit Leon. Thanks.

Pierre


01 Aug 2003 12:33:10
Dan Winsor
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Pierre Honeyman wrote:
>
> Damn! There goes my coffee!

Out through the nose?

> That's some funny shit Leon. Thanks.

Ooooh! Ooooh! He did it again! Now you're a *double* international
fugitive! I'm telling!

--
Dan Winsor

"I'm a lot more handsome than I look." - Ed Zeppelin



01 Aug 2003 14:01:53
Jerry B. Altzman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <3F2A9646.3070605@sun.smapmenot.com >,
Dan Winsor <daniel.nospam.winsor.nospam@sun.smapmenot.com > wrote:
>Pierre Honeyman wrote:
>> That's some funny shit Leon. Thanks.
>Ooooh! Ooooh! He did it again! Now you're a *double* international
>fugitive! I'm telling!

Some guys get all the luck.
I'm just some wacko who likes knives...

>Dan Winsor

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230 8750
jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com KE3ML


01 Aug 2003 19:22:11
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308010819.23607925@posting.google.com...
> > > Hey! How come he gets to be an international fugitive?
> >
> > He had a potty mouth in public after a warning!
>
> Damn! There goes my coffee!
>
> That's some funny shit Leon. Thanks.

Its my job to make international fugitives feel at ease.



>
> Pierre




01 Aug 2003 14:11:49
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Dan Winsor <daniel.nospam.winsor.nospam@sun.smapmenot.com > wrote in message news:<3F2A9646.3070605@sun.smapmenot.com>...
> Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> >
> > Damn! There goes my coffee!
>
> Out through the nose?

Fortunately there was no-one to see.

> > That's some funny shit Leon. Thanks.
>
> Ooooh! Ooooh! He did it again! Now you're a *double* international
> fugitive! I'm telling!

Man, it's my lucky day.

I can now indulge my wildest fantasies and bang super-hot chicks as
Pierre Honeyman - Double International Fugitive! Wanted for yards
around for repeated Pottymouthery in Public after receiving a Warning!
I shall enhance my image as an international scofflaw by Carrying a
Lump of Wood without Lawful Excuse, continuing with my
every-so-dastardly possession of Forbidden Pointed Objects (some with
blades, too), and even going so far as indulging in Mopery with Intent
to Gawk (not at you Chas, put the lawsuit down!)

Pierre


02 Aug 2003 18:48:21
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308011311.1f6204d4@posting.google.com...
> Dan Winsor <daniel.nospam.winsor.nospam@sun.smapmenot.com> wrote in
message news:<3F2A9646.3070605@sun.smapmenot.com >...
> > Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> Man, it's my lucky day.
>
> I can now indulge my wildest fantasies and bang super-hot chicks as
> Pierre Honeyman - Double International Fugitive!


No no you got it wrong. Hot chicks bang cops. Only ugly mingers go for
crooks.



Wanted for yards
> around for repeated Pottymouthery in Public after receiving a Warning!

A frivolous crime, but its one to get you off the streets before you indulge
in worse.




> I shall enhance my image as an international scofflaw by Carrying a
> Lump of Wood without Lawful Excuse,


A more serious offence if your intent is harmful.


continuing with my
> every-so-dastardly possession of Forbidden Pointed Objects (some with
> blades, too),


A much more serious offence. A boy was in custody this morning after being
found with a kitchen knife last night. In another case a guy actually was
stabbed in the neck. We didnt get to that knife in time.







04 Aug 2003 08:35:05
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
> A boy was in custody this morning after being
> found with a kitchen knife last night.

What were you doing in some poor guys kitchen? Spying on him maybe?

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


05 Aug 2003 13:54:43
Badger North
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:13 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
<Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:

>> > A boy was in custody this morning after being
>> > found with a kitchen knife last night.
>>
>> What were you doing in some poor guys kitchen? Spying on him maybe?
>
>He was not in his kitchen idiot or he would not have committed an offence.
>He was in the high street.

I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they purchase
home from the store in the UK.

Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm


05 Aug 2003 08:28:26
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Badger North" <young_forest@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom > wrote
> I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they purchase
> home from the store in the UK.

Knannies.

Chas




05 Aug 2003 14:22:06
Robert Low
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


Badger North <young_forest@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom > wrote:
>I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they purchase
>home from the store in the UK.

We hire somebody with a gun to create a disturbance somewhere
aways from our route home. Why do you think there's been such
a rise in gun-crime here?
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/


05 Aug 2003 09:04:34
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bgh11l$rjf$2@titan.btinternet.com>...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0308011311.1f6204d4@posting.google.com...
> > Dan Winsor <daniel.nospam.winsor.nospam@sun.smapmenot.com> wrote in
> message news:<3F2A9646.3070605@sun.smapmenot.com>...
> > > Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> > Man, it's my lucky day.
> >
> > I can now indulge my wildest fantasies and bang super-hot chicks as
> > Pierre Honeyman - Double International Fugitive!
>
> No no you got it wrong. Hot chicks bang cops. Only ugly mingers go for
> crooks.
>

And you say that cops don't lie.

> Wanted for yards
> > around for repeated Pottymouthery in Public after receiving a Warning!
>
> A frivolous crime, but its one to get you off the streets before you indulge
> in worse.

Too late.

> > I shall enhance my image as an international scofflaw by Carrying a
> > Lump of Wood without Lawful Excuse,
>
> A more serious offence if your intent is harmful.

Define harmful.

> continuing with my
> > every-so-dastardly possession of Forbidden Pointed Objects (some with
> > blades, too),
>
> A much more serious offence.

So, when can I expect you to get an international warrant for my
arrest issued? Canada and the UK have good extradition terms, should
be pretty easy for you.

As I sit here I am committing several crimes in the UK. I have 3,
count 'em, 3 illegal pointed and bladed objects on my person - one
lock blade and 2 fixed blades. Took 'em with me on the bus this
morning. Near to hand are 4, that's right beotch, 4 lumps of wood.
Ok, only one actual lump of wood, but 3 pieces of rattan which is a
woody vine - and don't think it don't hurt! It'll leave a nasty welt!

> A boy was in custody this morning after being
> found with a kitchen knife last night. In another case a guy actually was
> stabbed in the neck. We didnt get to that knife in time.

Which just proves that civilians should have access to arms. You guys
really can't be there in time. So what happened to cause such a
serious breach of your much-vaunted intelligence? Just hadn't got
'round to that bit yet?

Pierre


05 Aug 2003 16:10:52
Badger North
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On 5 Aug 2003 09:04:34 -0700, phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman)
wrote:

>> Wanted for yards
>> > around for repeated Pottymouthery in Public after receiving a Warning!
>>
>> A frivolous crime, but its one to get you off the streets before you indulge
>> in worse.
>
>Too late.

I *knew* being a potty-mouth was just a gateway crime to greater
infractions. Actually, I believe Toronto still has an anti-swearing
bylaw on the books - penalty is 25 cents.

>> A boy was in custody this morning after being
>> found with a kitchen knife last night. In another case a guy actually was
>> stabbed in the neck. We didnt get to that knife in time.
>
>Which just proves that civilians should have access to arms. You guys
>really can't be there in time. So what happened to cause such a
>serious breach of your much-vaunted intelligence? Just hadn't got
>'round to that bit yet?

It's okay - he's "under surveillance."

Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm


05 Aug 2003 22:57:43
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Badger North" <young_forest@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom > wrote in message
news:3f2fb6ff.3671475@news21.bellnet.ca...
> On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:13 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
> <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >> > A boy was in custody this morning after being
> >> > found with a kitchen knife last night.
> >>
> >> What were you doing in some poor guys kitchen? Spying on him maybe?
> >
> >He was not in his kitchen idiot or he would not have committed an
offence.
> >He was in the high street.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they purchase
> home from the store in the UK.



In closed bags out of sight.


>
> Badger Jones
> http://members.rogers.com/badger
> www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm




05 Aug 2003 23:04:36
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308050804.365929fa@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message > > No
no you got it wrong. Hot chicks bang cops. Only ugly mingers go for
> > crooks.
> >
>
> And you say that cops don't lie.



We dont. Girls come onto cops all the time.

>
> > Wanted for yards
> > > around for repeated Pottymouthery in Public after receiving a Warning!
> >
> > A frivolous crime, but its one to get you off the streets before you
indulge
> > in worse.
>
> Too late.


You admitting to violent crime now?

>
> > > I shall enhance my image as an international scofflaw by Carrying a
> > > Lump of Wood without Lawful Excuse,
> >
> > A more serious offence if your intent is harmful.
>
> Define harmful.

Wanting to hurt someone.



> As I sit here I am committing several crimes in the UK. I have 3,
> count 'em, 3 illegal pointed and bladed objects on my person - one
> lock blade and 2 fixed blades.


If you are not in a public place you can have a machete for all the law
cares.


Took 'em with me on the bus this
> morning. Near to hand are 4, that's right beotch, 4 lumps of wood.
> Ok, only one actual lump of wood, but 3 pieces of rattan which is a
> woody vine - and don't think it don't hurt! It'll leave a nasty welt!


Doesnt matter in private. Shows how little you know again. Taking them on
the bus is an offence though.


>
> > A boy was in custody this morning after being
> > found with a kitchen knife last night. In another case a guy actually
was
> > stabbed in the neck. We didnt get to that knife in time.
>
> Which just proves that civilians should have access to arms.


The one who stabbed him in the neck did.


You guys
> really can't be there in time.


Sometimes we can.


So what happened to cause such a
> serious breach of your much-vaunted intelligence? Just hadn't got
> 'round to that bit yet?


When?



>
> Pierre




06 Aug 2003 09:06:14
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Badger North" <young_forest@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
> news:3f2fb6ff.3671475@news21.bellnet.ca...
> > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:13 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
> > <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> > A boy was in custody this morning after being
> > >> > found with a kitchen knife last night.
> > >>
> > >> What were you doing in some poor guys kitchen? Spying on him maybe?
> > >
> > >He was not in his kitchen idiot or he would not have committed an
> offence.
> > >He was in the high street.
> >
> > I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they purchase
> > home from the store in the UK.
>
> In closed bags out of sight.

Nah. That'd be concealing a weapon. Twice as bad.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


06 Aug 2003 13:20:26
Badger North
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:57:43 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
<Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:

>> I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they purchase
>> home from the store in the UK.
>
>In closed bags out of sight.

And hope like hell the cops don't wonder what is in the bag.

Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm


06 Aug 2003 15:23:51
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F30FD46.6A6D14DD@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > "Badger North" <young_forest@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
> > news:3f2fb6ff.3671475@news21.bellnet.ca...
> > > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:13 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
> > > <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> > A boy was in custody this morning after being
> > > >> > found with a kitchen knife last night.
> > > >>
> > > >> What were you doing in some poor guys kitchen? Spying on him
maybe?
> > > >
> > > >He was not in his kitchen idiot or he would not have committed an
> > offence.
> > > >He was in the high street.
> > >
> > > I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they purchase
> > > home from the store in the UK.
> >
> > In closed bags out of sight.
>
> Nah. That'd be concealing a weapon. Twice as bad.

Who would know?




06 Aug 2003 11:38:20
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote
..... > > We dont. Girls come onto cops all the time.
> Everyone's got their groupies, I suppose.

Around here they call them 'badge bunnies'.
The major qualification seems to be the willingness to blow a bulldog in a
mudslide.

Chas




06 Aug 2003 14:12:20
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Pierre Honeyman wrote:
>
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<bgpd63$qjr$3@sparta.btinternet.com>...
> > "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > news:c04f17d7.0308050804.365929fa@posting.google.com...
> > > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message > > No
> > no you got it wrong. Hot chicks bang cops. Only ugly mingers go for
> > > > crooks.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And you say that cops don't lie.
> >
> > We dont. Girls come onto cops all the time.
>
> Everyone's got their groupies, I suppose.

Some chicks are willing to do anything to keep from getting a ticket or run in
for drug possession. Even sleep with crooked cops.

Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


06 Aug 2003 14:16:49
Dan Winsor
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Kirk Lawson wrote:
>
> Some chicks are willing to do anything to keep from getting a ticket or run in
> for drug possession. Even sleep with crooked cops.

It's worked for me so far... I mean, those disgusting sluts!

--
Dan Winsor

"I'm a lot more handsome than I look." - Ed Zeppelin



06 Aug 2003 15:35:52
Matthew Weigel
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <3f2fd663.11708869@news21.bellnet.ca >,
young_forest@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom (Badger North) wrote:

> infractions. Actually, I believe Toronto still has an anti-swearing
> bylaw on the books - penalty is 25 cents.

What's that, 10 swears for a penny in US$? ;-)

--
Matthew Weigel
hacker or something
no longer posting from work


06 Aug 2003 14:19:15
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote
> Some chicks are willing to do anything to keep from getting a ticket or
run in
> for drug possession. Even sleep with crooked cops.

We just had a detective convicted for extorting sex from a *witness*
(limited participation in a crime also, which was the compulsion).
He faces eight years in prison.

--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net




06 Aug 2003 13:26:00
Paul Ross
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

don't ask me why, but in oklahoma they are called "fender lizards"

--
Paul Ross
Ross Aikido
571 South Highway 49
Jackson, CA 95642
(209) 223-4400
pross@volcano.net
www.angelfire.com/ca/Aikido
"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:Td2dnfJDcbLSoKyiU-KYgw@comcast.com...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote
> .....> > We dont. Girls come onto cops all the time.
> > Everyone's got their groupies, I suppose.
>
> Around here they call them 'badge bunnies'.
> The major qualification seems to be the willingness to blow a bulldog in a
> mudslide.
>
> Chas
>
>




07 Aug 2003 16:44:32
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:im-dnZHBlIkAoayiXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > Who would know?
>
> The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause.
> That would be *you*, if memory serves.


We cannot do that.


>
> Chas
>
>




07 Aug 2003 13:00:12
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F31242C.A2F3FAE6@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > >
> > > "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> > > news:3F30FD46.6A6D14DD@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > > > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Badger North" <young_forest@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3f2fb6ff.3671475@news21.bellnet.ca...
> > > > > > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:13 +0000 (UTC), "Leon Macfayden"
> > > > > > <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > A boy was in custody this morning after being
> > > > > > >> > found with a kitchen knife last night.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> What were you doing in some poor guys kitchen? Spying on him
> > > maybe?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >He was not in his kitchen idiot or he would not have committed an
> > > > > offence.
> > > > > > >He was in the high street.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm still trying to figure out how people get the knives they
> purchase
> > > > > > home from the store in the UK.
> > > > >
> > > > > In closed bags out of sight.
> > > >
> > > > Nah. That'd be concealing a weapon. Twice as bad.
> > >
> > > Who would know?
> >
> > I guess it depends on whether or not he's part of the 1/3 of the
> population
> > you're currently spying on. But, let me get this strait, are you saying
> that,
> > as long as they keep the knife hidden (so that no one "would know") then
> it's
> > OK?
>
> Im saying its not ok to have a knife in a public place. Having a knife in a
> car on the way home from a shop is unlikely to be a public place unless you
> are in a taxi.

No one walks home or takes the "tube"??? Weird.

So, let's see... You can cary a knife as long as you're in a Taxi.

Good to know.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


07 Aug 2003 11:15:45
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> > The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause.
> > That would be *you*, if memory serves.
> We cannot do that.

You were the one talking about it- in the post with the enumeration of
intrusions you're comfortable with; wiretapping, search, 'harrassment' in
public.
--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net




07 Aug 2003 22:17:42
Robert Low
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


Chas <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote:
>"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
>> > The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause.
>> > That would be *you*, if memory serves.
>> We cannot do that.
>You were the one talking about it- in the post with the enumeration of
>intrusions you're comfortable with; wiretapping, search, 'harrassment' in
>public.

I'm pretty sure our cops require what you'd call 'probable cause'
to stop and search you. Though that might be at the level of
'he was acting in a manner which seemed to me to be suspicious'.
Phone taps, investigation of financial records etc require quite
a bit of justification.

Is it different in the US?
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/


07 Aug 2003 17:13:53
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Robert Low" <mtx014@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk > wrote
> Phone taps, investigation of financial records etc require quite
> a bit of justification.
> Is it different in the US?

Less every day-
We could degenerate into a true police state if we don't watch them
carefully.
--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net




08 Aug 2003 03:39:50
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


> > Im saying its not ok to have a knife in a public place. Having a knife
in a
> > car on the way home from a shop is unlikely to be a public place unless
you
> > are in a taxi.
>
> No one walks home or takes the "tube"??? Weird.
>
> So, let's see... You can cary a knife as long as you're in a Taxi.
>
> Good to know.

Good to know you cant follow a sentence. A taxi IS a public place. Read what
I said again. Having a knife in a car on the way home from a shop is
unlikely to be a public place UNLESS it is a taxi. And if you want to take
the bus or tube, dont buy bloody great knives.








08 Aug 2003 03:43:43
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:tZKcnW3AeZHzFK-iXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause.
> > > That would be *you*, if memory serves.
> > We cannot do that.
>
> You were the one talking about it- in the post with the enumeration of
> intrusions you're comfortable with; wiretapping, search, 'harrassment' in
> public.


With reasonable grounds. We cannot stop search any person we like. We may
stop any vehicle we like, but we may only search the vehicle if we have
reasonable grounds for suspecting an offence. I see you cant follow
sentences either.




08 Aug 2003 08:50:34
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> > > Im saying its not ok to have a knife in a public place. Having a knife
> in a
> > > car on the way home from a shop is unlikely to be a public place unless
> you
> > > are in a taxi.
> >
> > No one walks home or takes the "tube"??? Weird.
> >
> > So, let's see... You can cary a knife as long as you're in a Taxi.
> >
> > Good to know.
>
> Good to know you cant follow a sentence. A taxi IS a public place. Read what
> I said again. Having a knife in a car on the way home from a shop is
> unlikely to be a public place UNLESS it is a taxi. And if you want to take
> the bus or tube, dont buy bloody great knives.

But it's still OK to have a knife in a taxi, which, since it's a public place,
means it's ok to have a knife in a public place.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


08 Aug 2003 08:51:51
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:tZKcnW3AeZHzFK-iXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > > The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause.
> > > > That would be *you*, if memory serves.
> > > We cannot do that.
> >
> > You were the one talking about it- in the post with the enumeration of
> > intrusions you're comfortable with; wiretapping, search, 'harrassment' in
> > public.
>
> With reasonable grounds. We cannot stop search any person we like. We may
> stop any vehicle we like, but we may only search the vehicle if we have
> reasonable grounds for suspecting an offence.

Such as: He was acting nervous, your honour. I *swear*. It's a sure sign he
has drugs or a lumb of wood or something. I was *justified* in searching the
car.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


08 Aug 2003 09:58:22
Jerry B. Altzman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <bgv625$22n$3@sparta.btinternet.com >,
Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:
>Good to know you cant follow a sentence. A taxi IS a public place. Read what
>I said again. Having a knife in a car on the way home from a shop is
>unlikely to be a public place UNLESS it is a taxi. And if you want to take
>the bus or tube, dont buy bloody great knives.

Um, why not? My car is in the shop, and I need to get a knife home so's we
can cut up that great steak my wife has...

Sheesh.

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230 8750
jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com KE3ML


08 Aug 2003 08:33:48
Ron Tisdale
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Karim Rashad" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message news:<pan.2003.08.08.10.58.47.789571@privacy.net>...
> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:44:32 +0000, Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >> The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause. That
> >> would be *you*, if memory serves.
> >
> > We cannot do that.
>
> Aren't you allowed to search someone you've stopped if you have reasonable
> suspicion that they are carrying something that will be/has been used in a
> crime, or drugs, or stolen property? Doesn't that equate to you can
> pretty much stop and search anyone? I remember hearing that you can't
> *refuse* to submit to a search; though you can refuse to answer questions.

You can refuse...and they can hold you for 48 hours while they get a
search warrent. Good luck...

Ron


08 Aug 2003 17:11:25
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F339CE7.47EB5127@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:tZKcnW3AeZHzFK-iXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> > > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > > > The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause.
> > > > > That would be *you*, if memory serves.
> > > > We cannot do that.
> > >
> > > You were the one talking about it- in the post with the enumeration of
> > > intrusions you're comfortable with; wiretapping, search, 'harrassment'
in
> > > public.
> >
> > With reasonable grounds. We cannot stop search any person we like. We
may
> > stop any vehicle we like, but we may only search the vehicle if we have
> > reasonable grounds for suspecting an offence.
>
> Such as: He was acting nervous, your honour. I *swear*. It's a sure sign
he
> has drugs or a lumb of wood or something. I was *justified* in searching
the
> car.




You got it. And if he was not acting nervous, why would we waste our time?
If we find something we obviously was not wasting our time eh?




08 Aug 2003 17:13:12
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Karim Rashad" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:pan.2003.08.08.10.58.47.789571@privacy.net...
> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:44:32 +0000, Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >> The guys that can stop and frisk at will- without probable cause. That
> >> would be *you*, if memory serves.
> >
> > We cannot do that.
>
> Aren't you allowed to search someone you've stopped if you have reasonable
> suspicion that they are carrying something that will be/has been used in a
> crime, or drugs, or stolen property?


Yes, but that is not without probable cause.


Doesn't that equate to you can
> pretty much stop and search anyone?


No. We must have evidence such as a report from control, an informant or
something like that.



I remember hearing that you can't
> *refuse* to submit to a search; though you can refuse to answer questions.

You can refuse to submit to illegal searches - which are those without
grounds. The grounds for a search must be fully explained before a search
commences.


>
> --
> Karim Rashad <remove SPAMFREE: krashad@SPAMFREEorbisuk.com>
>




08 Aug 2003 17:14:55
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F339C9A.E16EA8A@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > > > Im saying its not ok to have a knife in a public place. Having a
knife
> > in a
> > > > car on the way home from a shop is unlikely to be a public place
unless
> > you
> > > > are in a taxi.
> > >
> > > No one walks home or takes the "tube"??? Weird.
> > >
> > > So, let's see... You can cary a knife as long as you're in a Taxi.
> > >
> > > Good to know.
> >
> > Good to know you cant follow a sentence. A taxi IS a public place. Read
what
> > I said again. Having a knife in a car on the way home from a shop is
> > unlikely to be a public place UNLESS it is a taxi. And if you want to
take
> > the bus or tube, dont buy bloody great knives.
>
> But it's still OK to have a knife in a taxi, which, since it's a public
place,
> means it's ok to have a knife in a public place.



No, as I said, TRY to follow a sentence. It is NOT ok to have a knife in a
taxi as it is a public place. Are you related to homer simpson?


>
> (IH)
> --
> "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge
> of their use."
> -Achille Marozzo, 1536
> --
> "...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists
> gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
> -Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts




08 Aug 2003 17:16:35
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@play.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bh0a9u$sru@play.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bgv625$22n$3@sparta.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >Good to know you cant follow a sentence. A taxi IS a public place. Read
what
> >I said again. Having a knife in a car on the way home from a shop is
> >unlikely to be a public place UNLESS it is a taxi. And if you want to
take
> >the bus or tube, dont buy bloody great knives.
>
> Um, why not?



Cos its the law. So thats the end of it really.


My car is in the shop,


Must be a big shop.


and I need to get a knife home so's we
> can cut up that great steak my wife has...


So make sure you conceal it well and dont go on public transport and you may
be ok. Otherwise you may be stopped and locked up for the night.







08 Aug 2003 14:32:28
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:

> You got it. And if he was not acting nervous, why would we waste our time?
> If we find something we obviously was not wasting our time eh?

That's right! If he's acting nervous, don't waste your time! Quick, call Leon
the armed cop and shoot him NOW! He probably has a lump of wood. No need to
waste time.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


08 Aug 2003 14:36:57
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F339C9A.E16EA8A@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Im saying its not ok to have a knife in a public place. Having a
> knife
> > > in a
> > > > > car on the way home from a shop is unlikely to be a public place
> unless
> > > you
> > > > > are in a taxi.
> > > >
> > > > No one walks home or takes the "tube"??? Weird.
> > > >
> > > > So, let's see... You can cary a knife as long as you're in a Taxi.
> > > >
> > > > Good to know.
> > >
> > > Good to know you cant follow a sentence. A taxi IS a public place. Read
> what
> > > I said again. Having a knife in a car on the way home from a shop is
> > > unlikely to be a public place UNLESS it is a taxi. And if you want to
> take
> > > the bus or tube, dont buy bloody great knives.
> >
> > But it's still OK to have a knife in a taxi, which, since it's a public
> place,
> > means it's ok to have a knife in a public place.
>
> No, as I said, TRY to follow a sentence. It is NOT ok to have a knife in a
> taxi as it is a public place.

Then how's he going to get it home from the store, again?

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


08 Aug 2003 14:31:05
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bgtvbk$i4g$2@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0308060917.1b5c908c@posting.google.com...

> > How was it that a serious violent crime occurred in the UK when you
> > have claimed previously that civilians don't need access to arms
> > because the police use "intelligence" to arrest criminals *before*
> > they act? Did the bit about "Some bloke is going to stab some other
> > bloke in the neck this evening" just get buried under some other
> > "intelligence" (you know, such as the flyer proclaiming it duo night
> > at the titty bar)?
>
> No one is psychic as you well know.

Which means your vaunted "intelligence" which is supposed to allow you
to arrest criminal before they commit crimes, and is one of the
keystones of your claim that citizens have no need of personal
weaponry, leaves much to be desired.

So, again, how is it that it is acceptable for the State to demand
that it's most vulnerable citizens be expected to defend themselves
from it's most agressive criminals with nothing between them but their
bare hands?

We both know that neither a "loud cry for help" nor "being a good
witness" is going to prevent crime. Court decisions in both your
country and mine have made it perfectly clear that the role of law
enforcement is *not* protective (rulings have made it clear that law
enforcement has no duty to protect any individual citizen, even if
such help is asked for). This leaves each individual citizen
responsible for their own protection - which IMHO is *exactly* as it
should be. Yet laws have been passed restricting the means of
protection to include, in the UK, only the use of bare hands or items
not meant to be weapons of any sort. In fact it is illegal to carry
commonplace non-weapon items if the intent is to use them for
self-defence - eg: lumps of wood, scissors - which restricts the
citizen even more.

This places the responsible citizen in a predicament: she can either
accede to being a victim, and hope she is one of the cases in which an
arrest and conviction is actually made (for anything less than murder
or rape, unlikely indeed); or she can knowingly break the law, risking
becoming a convicted criminal herself, in order to allow some modicum
of protection against personal assault.

Given the ease of the smuggling of small weapons, it is trivial to
show that weapons laws have no impact whatsoever on the availability
of small arms to criminals - in particular the highly violent
organized criminals that are the main source of concern to politicians
looking to get elected. Banning them for this reason (and this is a
huge reason that such weapons are banned) is therefore unlikely to be
effective by any measure.

The studies done in the US by Lott et al have shown pretty clearly
that "gun control" has very little impact on crime at all. Given this
lack of impact the State cannot morally argue that it has a compelling
interest (that of keeping crime low) to enact draconian weapons laws.
Citizens are being deprived of property and personal rights without
any measure of benefit for such deprivation (we'll leave Franklin out
of this for the moment, although I personally agree with him).

The only benefit of weapons laws is that they are politically
attractive. In response to either an surge in violent crime
(perceived or actual), or in response to an isolated violent event
(Columbine, Dunblane, L'Ecole Polytechnique), the imperative to "do
something" overrides almost all else. Ill-thought-out laws then get
passed, and a law that is passed almost never gets repealed, and
rights (both natural and legal) are eroded in response.

Speaking from a philosophical standponit the bottom line is that I, as
a human being, have a right to defend my life and the lives of anyone
I see fit, by violent means. The State, in abrogating or determining
the boundaries of that right, must show a compelling interest to do
so. A political interest is not good enough, and should never be
accepted. Unfortunately it all too often is.

Now Leon, I understand that I used many more words than you are used
to reading. Take your time, take sips of water when your mouth gets
dry, and ask your Mom (or her Pimp) to explain the words you don't
understand.

Pierre


08 Aug 2003 22:08:13
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308081331.41723352@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bgtvbk$i4g$2@hercules.btinternet.com >...
> > "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > news:c04f17d7.0308060917.1b5c908c@posting.google.com...
>
> > > How was it that a serious violent crime occurred in the UK when you
> > > have claimed previously that civilians don't need access to arms
> > > because the police use "intelligence" to arrest criminals *before*
> > > they act? Did the bit about "Some bloke is going to stab some other
> > > bloke in the neck this evening" just get buried under some other
> > > "intelligence" (you know, such as the flyer proclaiming it duo night
> > > at the titty bar)?
> >
> > No one is psychic as you well know.
>
> Which means your vaunted "intelligence" which is supposed to allow you
> to arrest criminal before they commit crimes, and is one of the
> keystones of your claim that citizens have no need of personal
> weaponry, leaves much to be desired.


Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call in time,
thats what happens.


>
> So, again, how is it that it is acceptable for the State to demand
> that it's most vulnerable citizens be expected to defend themselves
> from it's most agressive criminals with nothing between them but their
> bare hands?


They may use reasonable force to defend themselves.


>
> We both know that neither a "loud cry for help" nor "being a good
> witness" is going to prevent crime. Court decisions in both your
> country and mine have made it perfectly clear that the role of law
> enforcement is *not* protective (rulings have made it clear that law
> enforcement has no duty to protect any individual citizen, even if
> such help is asked for).


Wrong. We spend every single day protecting individual people. Its what we
do and our first duty as a constable is to protect life. Im sure I have said
all this before.



This leaves each individual citizen
> responsible for their own protection - which IMHO is *exactly* as it
> should be. Yet laws have been passed restricting the means of
> protection to include, in the UK, only the use of bare hands or items
> not meant to be weapons of any sort. In fact it is illegal to carry
> commonplace non-weapon items if the intent is to use them for
> self-defence - eg: lumps of wood, scissors - which restricts the
> citizen even more.


As it should be with such a good police force.


>
> This places the responsible citizen in a predicament: she can either
> accede to being a victim, and hope she is one of the cases in which an
> arrest and conviction is actually made (for anything less than murder
> or rape, unlikely indeed); or she can knowingly break the law, risking
> becoming a convicted criminal herself, in order to allow some modicum
> of protection against personal assault.

Or she may use reasonable force.



> The studies done in the US by Lott et al have shown pretty clearly
> that "gun control" has very little impact on crime at all.


But there is far less gun crime in england than in the US.


> Speaking from a philosophical standponit the bottom line is that I, as
> a human being, have a right to defend my life and the lives of anyone
> I see fit, by violent means.

Nope. You may defend yourself and close relatives but you may not defend
anyone you see fit. Thats our job to defend everybody.




> Now Leon, I understand that I used many more words than you are used
> to reading. Take your time, take sips of water when your mouth gets
> dry, and ask your Mom (or her Pimp) to explain the words you don't
> understand.


You almost got to the end of a post without showing yourself to be a prick.
And then you failed again.


>
> Pierre




09 Aug 2003 15:26:03
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bh170a$d6a$2@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0308081331.41723352@posting.google.com...

> > Which means your vaunted "intelligence" which is supposed to allow you
> > to arrest criminal before they commit crimes, and is one of the
> > keystones of your claim that citizens have no need of personal
> > weaponry, leaves much to be desired.
>
> Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call in time,
> thats what happens.

Ironically enough, this is a cop-out.

> > So, again, how is it that it is acceptable for the State to demand
> > that it's most vulnerable citizens be expected to defend themselves
> > from it's most agressive criminals with nothing between them but their
> > bare hands?
>
> They may use reasonable force to defend themselves.

So, Leon, what is reasonable force when one is being assaulted by
someone younger, stronger, more agressive, more psychopathic, and
armed when one is contrained by law from carrying personal arms about
in public?

> > We both know that neither a "loud cry for help" nor "being a good
> > witness" is going to prevent crime. Court decisions in both your
> > country and mine have made it perfectly clear that the role of law
> > enforcement is *not* protective (rulings have made it clear that law
> > enforcement has no duty to protect any individual citizen, even if
> > such help is asked for).
>
> Wrong. We spend every single day protecting individual people.

No you don't. You spend your days enforcing the laws of the UK, which
is your job. This is not the same as protecting individuals. Any
individual protection you afford to a citizen is incidental, not
statutory.

If I were a citizen of the UK, and I were a victim of a violent crime
about which I had previously alerted the police (eg: there was a case
in Winnipeg where two women were shot by a husband who had a
restraining order against him, despite a passage in time of several
hours, and 5 phone calls to emergency services which went without
response) no liability would attach to any individual officer, to any
particular department, or to the UK Government in general.

> Its what we
> do and our first duty as a constable is to protect life. Im sure I have said
> all this before.

Yet you can only protect life if you are present, which leaves the
vast majority of UK citizens unprotected by the police the vast
majority of the time.

I *don't* have a problem with this, but it does put the lie to the
claim that the police are sufficient for any individual citizen. No
matter how low the violent crime rate is some individuals are
assaulted anyhow. At the moment of their assault *they*, and not the
police or any other government agency, are completely responsible for
their own safety. To deprive a citizen of the ability to carry out
this responsibility to the best of their abilities is reprehensible.

> > In fact it is illegal to carry
> > commonplace non-weapon items if the intent is to use them for
> > self-defence - eg: lumps of wood, scissors - which restricts the
> > citizen even more.
>
> As it should be with such a good police force.

You have indicated that the violent crime rate in the UK is higher
than zero. No matter how good the police force it is impossible to
maintain a zero violent crime rate, so depriving citizens of any means
necessary to provide for their own safety in an emergency is
despicable.

> > This places the responsible citizen in a predicament: she can either
> > accede to being a victim, and hope she is one of the cases in which an
> > arrest and conviction is actually made (for anything less than murder
> > or rape, unlikely indeed); or she can knowingly break the law, risking
> > becoming a convicted criminal herself, in order to allow some modicum
> > of protection against personal assault.
>
> Or she may use reasonable force.

Which may not be available to her without her breaking the law
beforehand. Which was my point.

> > The studies done in the US by Lott et al have shown pretty clearly
> > that "gun control" has very little impact on crime at all.
>
> But there is far less gun crime in england than in the US.

Yet what gun crime there is in the UK has risen since the introduction
of the handgun ban. This may or may not be related in any way to the
ban on handguns, but it does show that the ban definitely did not
*reduce* gun crime.

> > Speaking from a philosophical standponit the bottom line is that I, as
> > a human being, have a right to defend my life and the lives of anyone
> > I see fit, by violent means.
>
> Nope. You may defend yourself and close relatives but you may not defend
> anyone you see fit. Thats our job to defend everybody.

Philosophically speaking, Leon, please pay attention. I know that
there are a lot of syllables in that word, but surely you've heard it
before. Regardless, I'll be damned if I watch some other guy get
mugged and do nothing.

> > Now Leon, I understand that I used many more words than you are used
> > to reading. Take your time, take sips of water when your mouth gets
> > dry, and ask your Mom (or her Pimp) to explain the words you don't
> > understand.
>
> You almost got to the end of a post without showing yourself to be a prick.
> And then you failed again.

I have a reptuation as an International Fugitive with a record of
repeat Pottymouthery to uphold.

Pierre


09 Aug 2003 23:09:18
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308091426.3a78dcd0@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bh170a$d6a$2@hercules.btinternet.com >...
> > "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > news:c04f17d7.0308081331.41723352@posting.google.com...
>
> > > Which means your vaunted "intelligence" which is supposed to allow you
> > > to arrest criminal before they commit crimes, and is one of the
> > > keystones of your claim that citizens have no need of personal
> > > weaponry, leaves much to be desired.
> >
> > Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call in
time,
> > thats what happens.
>
> Ironically enough, this is a cop-out.

So where do you think intelligence comes from? Robots? Chips that get
inserted into paving slabs? Where?



>
> > > So, again, how is it that it is acceptable for the State to demand
> > > that it's most vulnerable citizens be expected to defend themselves
> > > from it's most agressive criminals with nothing between them but their
> > > bare hands?
> >
> > They may use reasonable force to defend themselves.
>
> So, Leon, what is reasonable force when one is being assaulted by
> someone younger, stronger, more agressive, more psychopathic, and
> armed when one is contrained by law from carrying personal arms about
> in public?


That is known as unfortunate. And if I was being attacked by a younger,
stronger, more aggressive, more psychopathic and armed person I would
probably end up dead myself as you have cunningly covered all angles there.
In fact, you may have described the terminator. Lucky he is only fiction
though eh?


>
> > > We both know that neither a "loud cry for help" nor "being a good
> > > witness" is going to prevent crime. Court decisions in both your
> > > country and mine have made it perfectly clear that the role of law
> > > enforcement is *not* protective (rulings have made it clear that law
> > > enforcement has no duty to protect any individual citizen, even if
> > > such help is asked for).
> >
> > Wrong. We spend every single day protecting individual people.
>
> No you don't. You spend your days enforcing the laws of the UK, which
> is your job.

Most of our work is not about enforcing the laws though. When we go to a
house because a man is arguing with his wife and threatening to hurt her, we
are mediators and attempt to defuse things and get him away from her so he
hopefully does not hurt her. The other day a woman tried to commit suicide
by drowning and got stuck in mud on all fours. I was the one who went out
and saved her. Thats not about enforcing law. Thats about saving life like
Ive been saying all along. I have plenty more examples if you cant
understand the first lot. You see, I live this day in and day out whereas
you merely sit and ponder and look up things on the web.




This is not the same as protecting individuals. Any
> individual protection you afford to a citizen is incidental, not
> statutory.


And yet we continually do so. We are a kind bunch.



>
> If I were a citizen of the UK, and I were a victim of a violent crime
> about which I had previously alerted the police (eg: there was a case
> in Winnipeg where two women were shot by a husband who had a
> restraining order against him, despite a passage in time of several
> hours, and 5 phone calls to emergency services which went without
> response) no liability would attach to any individual officer, to any
> particular department, or to the UK Government in general.


It depends.


>
> > Its what we
> > do and our first duty as a constable is to protect life. Im sure I have
said
> > all this before.
>
> Yet you can only protect life if you are present, which leaves the
> vast majority of UK citizens unprotected by the police the vast
> majority of the time.

Until they call us.



>
> > > In fact it is illegal to carry
> > > commonplace non-weapon items if the intent is to use them for
> > > self-defence - eg: lumps of wood, scissors - which restricts the
> > > citizen even more.
> >
> > As it should be with such a good police force.
>
> You have indicated that the violent crime rate in the UK is higher
> than zero. No matter how good the police force it is impossible to
> maintain a zero violent crime rate, so depriving citizens of any means
> necessary to provide for their own safety in an emergency is
> despicable.


Its impossible to save everyone from harm all of the time. People die you
know. You dont have the elixier of life in the palm of your hands.


>
> > > This places the responsible citizen in a predicament: she can either
> > > accede to being a victim, and hope she is one of the cases in which an
> > > arrest and conviction is actually made (for anything less than murder
> > > or rape, unlikely indeed); or she can knowingly break the law, risking
> > > becoming a convicted criminal herself, in order to allow some modicum
> > > of protection against personal assault.
> >
> > Or she may use reasonable force.
>
> Which may not be available to her without her breaking the law
> beforehand. Which was my point.


Because that would not have been reasonable.


>
> > > The studies done in the US by Lott et al have shown pretty clearly
> > > that "gun control" has very little impact on crime at all.
> >
> > But there is far less gun crime in england than in the US.
>
> Yet what gun crime there is in the UK has risen since the introduction
> of the handgun ban. This may or may not be related in any way to the
> ban on handguns, but it does show that the ban definitely did not
> *reduce* gun crime.


But it has not given us the levels of gun crime as there are in the US where
guns are freely available.


>
> > > Speaking from a philosophical standponit the bottom line is that I,
as
> > > a human being, have a right to defend my life and the lives of anyone
> > > I see fit, by violent means.
> >
> > Nope. You may defend yourself and close relatives but you may not defend
> > anyone you see fit. Thats our job to defend everybody.
>
> Philosophically speaking, Leon, please pay attention. I know that
> there are a lot of syllables in that word, but surely you've heard it
> before. Regardless, I'll be damned if I watch some other guy get
> mugged and do nothing.

Philosophy has nothing to do with my world and the world of crime and
violence.








11 Aug 2003 10:00:19
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Pierre Honeyman wrote:
>
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<bh170a$d6a$2@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> > "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > news:c04f17d7.0308081331.41723352@posting.google.com...
>
> > > Which means your vaunted "intelligence" which is supposed to allow you
> > > to arrest criminal before they commit crimes, and is one of the
> > > keystones of your claim that citizens have no need of personal
> > > weaponry, leaves much to be desired.
> >
> > Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call in time,
> > thats what happens.
>
> Ironically enough, this is a cop-out.
>

Nah. He's say'n that if you get mugged it's your own fault (couldn't *possibly*
be the cops fault for not catch'n crooks) because you weren't doing your job
well enough (playing Nazi Youth and spying on all of your fellows) and didn't
call the cops *before* you were mugged so that they could catch him in the act.

...stupid civilians...

Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


11 Aug 2003 10:04:21
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:

> So where do you think intelligence comes from? Robots? Chips that get
> inserted into paving slabs? Where?

I'm developing a theory linking British cops named Leon to Alien Abductions and
Anal Probes.

But I'm not sure it's *just* to implant chips...

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


11 Aug 2003 15:39:46
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@disco.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bh6ua8$88l@disco.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bh0ltj$hoh$3@hercules.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> >I said again. Having a knife in a car on the way home from a shop is
> >> >unlikely to be a public place UNLESS it is a taxi. And if you want to
> >take
> >> >the bus or tube, dont buy bloody great knives.
> >> Um, why not?
> >Cos its the law. So thats the end of it really.
>
> The law forbids both rich and poor from sleeping under bridges...


The law forbids many things but I thought we were talking about knives?


> So it appears that if your car is out of commission, you can't replace any
> cutlery in Britain.


It appears that way, but thats why police have discretion and thats also why
plastic bags were invented.


> >>My car is in the shop,
> >Must be a big shop.
>
> Yeah -- a car repair shop.
> You know, places where mere mortals go to get their cars repaired.


Oh you mean a garage.


>
> >>and I need to get a knife home so's we
> >> can cut up that great steak my wife has...
> >So make sure you conceal it well and dont go on public transport and you
may
> >be ok. Otherwise you may be stopped and locked up for the night.
>
> Unless Leon the Lion-Hearted happens to spot me on the train, and decides
> to hassle me,


Far too busy.


because (as you've noted before) I'm one of them-there
> suspicious looking dudes, wearing one of them yidlids and you know, just
> looking shifty...
>
> "What a country!"


If you WERE looking shifty then I may have reason to speak to you. I would
need more than that to search you though.


>
> //jbaltz
> --
> jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230
8750
> jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com
KE3ML




11 Aug 2003 15:42:16
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F3789C1.63CC48BA@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > > > No one is psychic as you well know.
> > >
> > > Which means your vaunted "intelligence" which is supposed to allow you
> > > to arrest criminal before they commit crimes, and is one of the
> > > keystones of your claim that citizens have no need of personal
> > > weaponry, leaves much to be desired.
> >
> > Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call in
time,
> > thats what happens.
>
> So, it's the *citizens'* fault that they got robbed and beat up!
>
> They shoulda called the police sooner.
>
> Good to know.

No one is saying should or should not. But it stands to reason if someone
HAD called the police sooner, we would have had more chance of preventing
such a serious injury. Thats how we catch people - we rely on quick calls
from the public for the most part.



>
> They were probably ask'n for it anyway. You know. Look at what they wuz
> wearing. I bet they enjoyed it. They secretly *wanted* to be robbed and
beat
> up.

Actually the guy in question was not robbed, he was beaten up by his
partners long suffering son, after he had attempted to rape the mother. He
also has a history of sexual offences against underage girls, violence and
currently burglary. So I wont shed any tears for him getting a pasting no.
But being the professional I am, I do my job anyway.








11 Aug 2003 15:45:34
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F37A173.BB81A68E@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Pierre Honeyman wrote:
> >
> > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bh170a$d6a$2@hercules.btinternet.com >...
> > > "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > > news:c04f17d7.0308081331.41723352@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > > Which means your vaunted "intelligence" which is supposed to allow
you
> > > > to arrest criminal before they commit crimes, and is one of the
> > > > keystones of your claim that citizens have no need of personal
> > > > weaponry, leaves much to be desired.
> > >
> > > Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call in
time,
> > > thats what happens.
> >
> > Ironically enough, this is a cop-out.
> >
>
> Nah. He's say'n that if you get mugged it's your own fault (couldn't
*possibly*
> be the cops fault for not catch'n crooks)


And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them? Are you going
back to the secret cameras in the paving slabs argument, or maybe we should
attach monitors to birds so as they fly around we can watch what they see.
Idiot.


because you weren't doing your job
> well enough (playing Nazi Youth and spying on all of your fellows) and
didn't
> call the cops *before* you were mugged so that they could catch him in the
act.

No, but often someone observing the incident calls. If they dont it makes it
very difficult to catch the guy. You may not like it. I could give a shit if
you like it or not. Its logical and its the way it is.




>
> ...stupid civilians...

Theres alot of them out there.







11 Aug 2003 15:47:11
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F37A265.42CEBC60@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> > So where do you think intelligence comes from? Robots? Chips that get
> > inserted into paving slabs? Where?
>
> I'm developing a theory linking British cops named Leon to Alien
Abductions and
> Anal Probes.
>
> But I'm not sure it's *just* to implant chips...


In other words you know the answer is our intelligence comes from PEOPLE and
if PEOPLE dont call quick enough, the chances of catching the criminal go
down, but you covered that up with another heap of garbage.







11 Aug 2003 11:52:39
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:

> > > Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call in
> time,
> > > thats what happens.
> >
> > So, it's the *citizens'* fault that they got robbed and beat up!
> >
> > They shoulda called the police sooner.
> >
> > Good to know.
>
> No one is saying should or should not. But it stands to reason if someone
> HAD called the police sooner, we would have had more chance of preventing
> such a serious injury.

So, getting attacked by a criminal is their own fault.

Gotcha.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


11 Aug 2003 11:59:52
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:

> > Nah. He's say'n that if you get mugged it's your own fault (couldn't
> *possibly*
> > be the cops fault for not catch'n crooks)
>
> And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?

Right. It's the citizen's fault he got attacked.

We've got that now, you can stop explaining it.


> Are you going
> back to the secret cameras in the paving slabs argument, or maybe we should
> attach monitors to birds so as they fly around we can watch what they see.

You've already hinted at Anal Probes. Too late to deny it now. There will
likely be a Government cover-up and you'll get a red penlight flashed in your
eyes.

Your new name will likely be "Bob" and I suspect you'll be a Sanitation Engineer
in your new identity (unkownst to you, of course).


> because you weren't doing your job
> > well enough (playing Nazi Youth and spying on all of your fellows) and
> didn't
> > call the cops *before* you were mugged so that they could catch him in the
> act.
>
> No, but often someone observing the incident calls. If they dont it makes it
> very difficult to catch the guy. You may not like it. I could give a shit if
> you like it or not. Its logical and its the way it is.

Yeah, you've already covered this. If the police fail to catch a criminal the
fault lies with the citizens. We've got it already.


> > ...stupid civilians...
>
> Theres alot of them out there.

Lock 'em all up, sez I. That way you'll know you've got the criminals AND
you'll keep the stupid people off the streets (you know, all non-cops) AND
you'll get rid of those people who didn't locate the criminal *for* you.

It's a perfect plan.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


11 Aug 2003 12:01:51
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F37A265.42CEBC60@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > > So where do you think intelligence comes from? Robots? Chips that get
> > > inserted into paving slabs? Where?
> >
> > I'm developing a theory linking British cops named Leon to Alien
> Abductions and
> > Anal Probes.
> >
> > But I'm not sure it's *just* to implant chips...
>
> In other words you know the answer is our intelligence comes from PEOPLE and
> if PEOPLE dont call quick enough, the chances of catching the criminal go
> down,

Right. It's all the victim's fault if you don't catch the criminal. It's his
fault he got victimized anyhow.

> but you covered that up with another heap of garbage.

Garbage isn't sanitary. You should really use somethig sterile for your Anal
Probes.

Oh wait. They're just non-cops anyhow. Screw 'em.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


11 Aug 2003 10:03:44
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?

First choice is by arresting him on the stretcher.

--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net




11 Aug 2003 16:19:41
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F37BBC7.7D2E6523@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> > > > Its the citizens who provide the intelligence. If they do not call
in
> > time,
> > > > thats what happens.
> > >
> > > So, it's the *citizens'* fault that they got robbed and beat up!
> > >
> > > They shoulda called the police sooner.
> > >
> > > Good to know.
> >
> > No one is saying should or should not. But it stands to reason if
someone
> > HAD called the police sooner, we would have had more chance of
preventing
> > such a serious injury.
>
> So, getting attacked by a criminal is their own fault.
>
> Gotcha.

So youre at the stage where you hope that by repeating the same thing and
ignoring my responses that I will agree with you. Ill say it again :

No one is saying should or should not. But it stands to REASON (look that
one up) if someone had called the police sooner, we would have had more
CHANCE of preventing such a serious injury.

Now you tell me a better way of police detecting crime. Thats how a
conversation goes, as opposed to you responding to yourself.








11 Aug 2003 16:22:04
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F37BD78.B1CF0BA1@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> > > Nah. He's say'n that if you get mugged it's your own fault (couldn't
> > *possibly*
> > > be the cops fault for not catch'n crooks)
> >
> > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
>
> Right. It's the citizen's fault he got attacked.
>
> We've got that now, you can stop explaining it.


LOL The way you speak to yourself is positively funny. How about you explain
to me as you know more than I do obviously, how the police are supposed to
catch criminals in the act?


>
>
> > Are you going
> > back to the secret cameras in the paving slabs argument, or maybe we
should
> > attach monitors to birds so as they fly around we can watch what they
see.
>
> You've already hinted at Anal Probes. Too late to deny it now. There
will
> likely be a Government cover-up and you'll get a red penlight flashed in
your
> eyes.
>
> Your new name will likely be "Bob" and I suspect you'll be a Sanitation
Engineer
> in your new identity (unkownst to you, of course).


Still cant answer cos it would mean agreeing with me. I grew out of such
stubbornness when I was about 5.


>
>
> > because you weren't doing your job
> > > well enough (playing Nazi Youth and spying on all of your fellows) and
> > didn't
> > > call the cops *before* you were mugged so that they could catch him in
the
> > act.
> >
> > No, but often someone observing the incident calls. If they dont it
makes it
> > very difficult to catch the guy. You may not like it. I could give a
shit if
> > you like it or not. Its logical and its the way it is.
>
> Yeah, you've already covered this. If the police fail to catch a criminal
the
> fault lies with the citizens. We've got it already.


Ok, your homework is to read my paragraph above as many times as it takes to
get it. When you can actually repeat what I said in your own words
accurately, you may get a prize. But Im sure the doubling of your brain
cells from such a task will be prize enough.







11 Aug 2003 10:33:12
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bh3uus$bnr$2@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0308091426.3a78dcd0@posting.google.com...
> > Ironically enough, this is a cop-out.
>
> So where do you think intelligence comes from? Robots? Chips that get
> inserted into paving slabs? Where?

Kirk hit it two times.

You copped out by blaming citizens lack of ability to psychically
predict crime for your own admitted inability to prevent all of it.

> > So, Leon, what is reasonable force when one is being assaulted by
> > someone younger, stronger, more agressive, more psychopathic, and
> > armed when one is contrained by law from carrying personal arms about
> > in public?
>
> That is known as unfortunate.

Unresponsive. I'm not asking what one should do, all I would be
interested in your answer. I am asking you what *you* would consider
to be reasonable force.

> > No you don't. You spend your days enforcing the laws of the UK, which
> > is your job.
>
> Most of our work is not about enforcing the laws though. When we go to a
> house because a man is arguing with his wife and threatening to hurt her,

Thus breaking the law.

> we
> are mediators and attempt to defuse things and get him away from her so he
> hopefully does not hurt her.

And the only reason you don't immediately arrest and imprison is
because she won't testify. I understand. You're still there to
enforce the law.

> The other day a woman tried to commit suicide
> by drowning and got stuck in mud on all fours. I was the one who went out
> and saved her. Thats not about enforcing law.

Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.

> Thats about saving life like
> Ive been saying all along. I have plenty more examples if you cant
> understand the first lot. You see, I live this day in and day out whereas
> you merely sit and ponder and look up things on the web.

I'm not saying that you don't save lives and I'm not saying that
saving lives isn't part of your job, but it isn't primary.

> This is not the same as protecting individuals. Any
> > individual protection you afford to a citizen is incidental, not
> > statutory.
>
> And yet we continually do so. We are a kind bunch.

Sure, cops do good work , but protecting life is incidental to your
job. Show me any legislation that requires you to protect any
specific life.

> > If I were a citizen of the UK, and I were a victim of a violent crime
> > about which I had previously alerted the police (eg: there was a case
> > in Winnipeg where two women were shot by a husband who had a
> > restraining order against him, despite a passage in time of several
> > hours, and 5 phone calls to emergency services which went without
> > response) no liability would attach to any individual officer, to any
> > particular department, or to the UK Government in general.
>
> It depends.

Just telling you where there was an admitted failure of the system for
which the law enforcement agencies involved were not criminally
liable. In the specific language of parts of the rulings the Judge
made it absolutely clear that the police have no statutory duty to
protect any specific individual. I believe that there has been a
similar ruling in the UK.

> > Yet you can only protect life if you are present, which leaves the
> > vast majority of UK citizens unprotected by the police the vast
> > majority of the time.
>
> Until they call us.

Which is always after.

Another anectdote:
A few months ago in a Vancouver suburban mall complex, some of the
merchants noticed some suspcious men parked outside in a car. There
appeared to be casing several businesses with the intent to rob them.
They called the police with this information and indicated they
thought that a robbery was imminent. The police decided to triage
this to a lower priority, and thus did not respond. Sure enough the
men donned some masks, entered a jewellery store with a sawed off
shotgun, robbed the place, and fled. Not surprisingly the car (found
by description and the fact that the merchants had previously recorded
the license plate) turned out to be stolen, meaning this case now had
no leads.

So I call bullshit Leon. You know you can't respond to every call and
you know you only respond to a crime which is already in progress, or
one which is long over.

> > You have indicated that the violent crime rate in the UK is higher
> > than zero. No matter how good the police force it is impossible to
> > maintain a zero violent crime rate, so depriving citizens of any means
> > necessary to provide for their own safety in an emergency is
> > despicable.
>
> Its impossible to save everyone from harm all of the time. People die you
> know. You dont have the elixier of life in the palm of your hands.

That's my point Leon. It's impossible for someone else to save your
life. When it comes down to it you're the one that has to take
action.

> > Which may not be available to her without her breaking the law
> > beforehand. Which was my point.
>
> Because that would not have been reasonable.

What is reasonable force against a rapist Leon?

> > Yet what gun crime there is in the UK has risen since the introduction
> > of the handgun ban. This may or may not be related in any way to the
> > ban on handguns, but it does show that the ban definitely did not
> > *reduce* gun crime.
>
> But it has not given us the levels of gun crime as there are in the US where
> guns are freely available.

Apples vs. oranges Leon. The crime rate in the US has nothing to do
with the crime rate in the UK. There have historically been more
homicides in the US even when the UK and the US had similar firearms
laws (late 1800s).

> > Philosophically speaking, Leon, please pay attention. I know that
> > there are a lot of syllables in that word, but surely you've heard it
> > before. Regardless, I'll be damned if I watch some other guy get
> > mugged and do nothing.
>
> Philosophy has nothing to do with my world and the world of crime and
> violence.

I know Leon, it's pretty obvious that you're not much of a thinker.

Pierre


11 Aug 2003 10:52:02
Ron Tisdale
Re: Hey Ron (was: Re: Colorado, the School and the Police)

Kirk Lawson <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message news:<3F33D845.D5870022@heapy.com_SPAMSUX>...
> Ron Tisdale wrote:
>
> We've got a guy here in Dayton on the Radio named Tisdale. Any relation?

Not that I know of...what's his first name?
Ron

>
> Peace favor your sword (IH)
> --
> "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
> of their use."
> -Achille Marozzo, 1536


11 Aug 2003 18:51:28
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308110933.4977d3d8@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bh3uus$bnr$2@hercules.btinternet.com >...
> > "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > news:c04f17d7.0308091426.3a78dcd0@posting.google.com...
> > > Ironically enough, this is a cop-out.
> >
> > So where do you think intelligence comes from? Robots? Chips that get
> > inserted into paving slabs? Where?
>
> Kirk hit it two times.


But neither he nor you answered the question.


>
> You copped out by blaming citizens lack of ability to psychically
> predict crime for your own admitted inability to prevent all of it.


And how can we psychically predict crime? We rely on intelligence which
comes from people. Often people report a crime happening as they are
observers. When that happens we have a good chance of catching the person
responsible. When it doesnt happen it is much harder to do so. Now do you
see the word blame in there? Do you see me copping out? Tell me which part
is so hard to understand and Ill go back to baby speak to explain it to you.


>
> > > So, Leon, what is reasonable force when one is being assaulted by
> > > someone younger, stronger, more agressive, more psychopathic, and
> > > armed when one is contrained by law from carrying personal arms about
> > > in public?
> >
> > That is known as unfortunate.
>
> Unresponsive. I'm not asking what one should do, all I would be
> interested in your answer. I am asking you what *you* would consider
> to be reasonable force.

You refuse to answer my question without useless bullshit and then expect me
to answer yours.



>
> > > No you don't. You spend your days enforcing the laws of the UK, which
> > > is your job.
> >
> > Most of our work is not about enforcing the laws though. When we go to a
> > house because a man is arguing with his wife and threatening to hurt
her,
>
> Thus breaking the law.

But carry on reading, I know its hard but take your time.



>
> > we
> > are mediators and attempt to defuse things and get him away from her so
he
> > hopefully does not hurt her.
>
> And the only reason you don't immediately arrest and imprison is
> because she won't testify. I understand. You're still there to
> enforce the law.

Nothing to do with that. She does not have to testify.



>
> > The other day a woman tried to commit suicide
> > by drowning and got stuck in mud on all fours. I was the one who went
out
> > and saved her. Thats not about enforcing law.
>
> Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.


Suicide is legal here and has been for many many years. Think, engage brain
and speak. There is nothing illegal about suicide in England.


>
> > Thats about saving life like
> > Ive been saying all along. I have plenty more examples if you cant
> > understand the first lot. You see, I live this day in and day out
whereas
> > you merely sit and ponder and look up things on the web.
>
> I'm not saying that you don't save lives and I'm not saying that
> saving lives isn't part of your job, but it isn't primary.


Well I say it is. You say it isnt. And the purpose of continuing this aspect
of the topic is what?


>
> > This is not the same as protecting individuals. Any
> > > individual protection you afford to a citizen is incidental, not
> > > statutory.
> >
> > And yet we continually do so. We are a kind bunch.
>
> Sure, cops do good work , but protecting life is incidental to your
> job. Show me any legislation that requires you to protect any
> specific life.

All I can show is the definition of a constable under the oath we take.



>
> > > If I were a citizen of the UK, and I were a victim of a violent crime
> > > about which I had previously alerted the police (eg: there was a case
> > > in Winnipeg where two women were shot by a husband who had a
> > > restraining order against him, despite a passage in time of several
> > > hours, and 5 phone calls to emergency services which went without
> > > response) no liability would attach to any individual officer, to any
> > > particular department, or to the UK Government in general.
> >
> > It depends.
>
> Just telling you where there was an admitted failure of the system for
> which the law enforcement agencies involved were not criminally
> liable. In the specific language of parts of the rulings the Judge
> made it absolutely clear that the police have no statutory duty to
> protect any specific individual. I believe that there has been a
> similar ruling in the UK.
>
> > > Yet you can only protect life if you are present, which leaves the
> > > vast majority of UK citizens unprotected by the police the vast
> > > majority of the time.
> >
> > Until they call us.
>
> Which is always after.

No. Consistently it is during. We had many calls the other night of people
attempting to break in, or currently damaging property, or suspicious
persons ON premises, or a fight IN progress. In fact the majority of night
calls very rarely are "after".



>
> Another anectdote:
> A few months ago in a Vancouver suburban mall complex, some of the
> merchants noticed some suspcious men parked outside in a car. There
> appeared to be casing several businesses with the intent to rob them.
> They called the police with this information and indicated they
> thought that a robbery was imminent. The police decided to triage
> this to a lower priority, and thus did not respond. Sure enough the
> men donned some masks, entered a jewellery store with a sawed off
> shotgun, robbed the place, and fled. Not surprisingly the car (found
> by description and the fact that the merchants had previously recorded
> the license plate) turned out to be stolen, meaning this case now had
> no leads.


Maybe it was low priority. Do you know how many other things were happening
that night? Or how many officers there were to respond? I doubt it.


>
> So I call bullshit Leon. You know you can't respond to every call and
> you know you only respond to a crime which is already in progress, or
> one which is long over.


Of course - a crime already in progress is what I am talking about. Did you
just have a lightbulb moment?


>
> > > You have indicated that the violent crime rate in the UK is higher
> > > than zero. No matter how good the police force it is impossible to
> > > maintain a zero violent crime rate, so depriving citizens of any means
> > > necessary to provide for their own safety in an emergency is
> > > despicable.
> >
> > Its impossible to save everyone from harm all of the time. People die
you
> > know. You dont have the elixier of life in the palm of your hands.
>
> That's my point Leon. It's impossible for someone else to save your
> life. When it comes down to it you're the one that has to take
> action.


I know I am - well the police as a whole anyway.


>
> > > Which may not be available to her without her breaking the law
> > > beforehand. Which was my point.
> >
> > Because that would not have been reasonable.
>
> What is reasonable force against a rapist Leon?



Anything that comes to hand.

>
> > > Yet what gun crime there is in the UK has risen since the introduction
> > > of the handgun ban. This may or may not be related in any way to the
> > > ban on handguns, but it does show that the ban definitely did not
> > > *reduce* gun crime.
> >
> > But it has not given us the levels of gun crime as there are in the US
where
> > guns are freely available.
>
> Apples vs. oranges Leon. The crime rate in the US has nothing to do
> with the crime rate in the UK. There have historically been more
> homicides in the US even when the UK and the US had similar firearms
> laws (late 1800s).


But there are more guns in the US and more gun crime. So if England wants
less gun crime it should hardly copy a land where the opposite is taking
place. If I want to go on a diet I would hardly take tips off of a fat
woman.


>
> > > Philosophically speaking, Leon, please pay attention. I know that
> > > there are a lot of syllables in that word, but surely you've heard it
> > > before. Regardless, I'll be damned if I watch some other guy get
> > > mugged and do nothing.
> >
> > Philosophy has nothing to do with my world and the world of crime and
> > violence.
>
> I know Leon, it's pretty obvious that you're not much of a thinker.


Shows how much you know. Most of my life was spent in education. I studied,
law, counselling and many other subjects. I could, do and am running rings
around you.


>
> Pierre




11 Aug 2003 18:52:14
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:2ZycnTa7o-uBUqqiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
> > > First choice is by arresting him on the stretcher.
> > That another famous one liner straight from Colarado?
>
> There was only one question.


Ill give you a tip. When you write a response it has to make sense and have
something to do with the thing you are responding to.




11 Aug 2003 13:11:40
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> > > > > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
> > > > First choice is by arresting him on the stretcher.
> > > That another famous one liner straight from Colarado?
> > There was only one question.
> Ill give you a tip.

That's like accepting spare change from a beggar-

> When you write a response it has to make sense and have
> something to do with the thing you are responding to.

I'll lead you by the hand, Leon:
The civilian interest is not in 'catching' the crim.
The police interest is in catching.
The civilian interest is in protecting against them.
As a civilian, my first interest is in neutralizing his threat- that's
probably what put him on the stretcher.
Your easiest 'catch' is just to clap him in irons before he awakens and
watch him whilst he convalesces in hospital.
Have Nurse read it to you slowly, but feel assured that I'm capable of
drawing you a picture if needed.
Long enough answer for you, Leon?

--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net




11 Aug 2003 19:33:34
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:EoidnfSZa-c_d6qiXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > > > > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
> > > > > First choice is by arresting him on the stretcher.
> > > > That another famous one liner straight from Colarado?
> > > There was only one question.
> > Ill give you a tip.
>
> That's like accepting spare change from a beggar-
>
> > When you write a response it has to make sense and have
> > something to do with the thing you are responding to.
>
> I'll lead you by the hand, Leon:
> The civilian interest is not in 'catching' the crim.

Yet they are the first to complain if he is not caught.



> The police interest is in catching.
> The civilian interest is in protecting against them.


Which we can do if we are notified as soon as possible.


> As a civilian, my first interest is in neutralizing his threat- that's
> probably what put him on the stretcher.
> Your easiest 'catch' is just to clap him in irons before he awakens and
> watch him whilst he convalesces in hospital.



And if you put him on a stretcher, chances are you would be put in cuffs too
in order to investigate a possible assault.

> Have Nurse read it to you slowly, but feel assured that I'm capable of
> drawing you a picture if needed.
> Long enough answer for you, Leon?


It wasnt the size of the answer - it was the fact that it almost made sense.


>
> --
> Chas
> 'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
> http://www.chasclements.com
> http://www.kuntaosilat.net
>
>




11 Aug 2003 15:23:26
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> > I'll lead you by the hand, Leon:
> > The civilian interest is not in 'catching' the crim.
> Yet they are the first to complain if he is not caught.

Considering that 'they' is everybody but *you* (and yer mates), that's
hardly surprising.
If we didn't complain, there'd be no complaints at all, Leon- certainly
can't trust you to police yourselves.

> > The civilian interest is in protecting against them.
> Which we can do if we are notified as soon as possible.

Yes, I remember, in England, 'give a loud cry for help'.
I assume you follow with- 'in case of your lungs filling with blood, ring a
bell'.

> And if you put him on a stretcher, chances are you would be put in cuffs
too
> in order to investigate a possible assault.

So I've heard.
I hear you guys drink your tea hot too, so nothing surprises me about you
anymore.

> > Have Nurse read it to you slowly, but feel assured that I'm capable of
> > drawing you a picture if needed.
> > Long enough answer for you, Leon?
> It wasnt the size of the answer - it was the fact that it almost made
sense.

Well; tell her thanks for me- I'm sure she reads beautifully and dealing
with the obdurately thick must be such a challenge for her. You're in good
hands I'm sure.

--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net




11 Aug 2003 14:39:10
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bh8okt$ckf$2@titan.btinternet.com>...
> "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:2ZycnTa7o-uBUqqiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
> > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > > > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
> > > > First choice is by arresting him on the stretcher.
> > > That another famous one liner straight from Colarado?
> >
> > There was only one question.
>
> Ill give you a tip. When you write a response it has to make sense and have
> something to do with the thing you are responding to.

It did make sense. I understood it and I've never even been to Colorado.

Pierre


11 Aug 2003 22:08:34
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308111339.70e580b7@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bh8okt$ckf$2@titan.btinternet.com >...
> > "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:2ZycnTa7o-uBUqqiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
> > > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > > > > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
> > > > > First choice is by arresting him on the stretcher.
> > > > That another famous one liner straight from Colarado?
> > >
> > > There was only one question.
> >
> > Ill give you a tip. When you write a response it has to make sense and
have
> > something to do with the thing you are responding to.
>
> It did make sense. I understood it and I've never even been to Colorado.


You would say that.


>
> Pierre




11 Aug 2003 22:10:19
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:WUSdna5PjrsYlKWiXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > I'll lead you by the hand, Leon:
> > > The civilian interest is not in 'catching' the crim.
> > Yet they are the first to complain if he is not caught.
>
> Considering that 'they' is everybody but *you* (and yer mates), that's
> hardly surprising.



But they are not into catching the crim according to you. Bare in mind that
covers just as wide a range of people.

> If we didn't complain, there'd be no complaints at all, Leon- certainly
> can't trust you to police yourselves.


So you complain about things you dont even care about by your own admission
just for a way to fill time?

>
> > > The civilian interest is in protecting against them.
> > Which we can do if we are notified as soon as possible.
>
> Yes, I remember, in England, 'give a loud cry for help'.
> I assume you follow with- 'in case of your lungs filling with blood, ring
a
> bell'.

Ummmm no....



>
> > And if you put him on a stretcher, chances are you would be put in cuffs
> too
> > in order to investigate a possible assault.
>
> So I've heard.
> I hear you guys drink your tea hot too, so nothing surprises me about you
> anymore.

You drink cold tea? I dont even like tea though.



>
> > > Have Nurse read it to you slowly, but feel assured that I'm capable of
> > > drawing you a picture if needed.
> > > Long enough answer for you, Leon?
> > It wasnt the size of the answer - it was the fact that it almost made
> sense.
>
> Well; tell her thanks for me- I'm sure she reads beautifully and dealing
> with the obdurately thick must be such a challenge for her. You're in good
> hands I'm sure.

No Im male Chas.


>
> --
> Chas
> 'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
> http://www.chasclements.com
> http://www.kuntaosilat.net
>
>




11 Aug 2003 15:15:33
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bh8oje$3ih$2@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0308110933.4977d3d8@posting.google.com...

> > Kirk hit it two times.
>
> But neither he nor you answered the question.

The question was asked, by me, to point out the flaw in your "citizens
don't need personal arms" argument. The flaw has been pointed out, by
all involved, and thus *your* question is irrelevant.

> > You copped out by blaming citizens lack of ability to psychically
> > predict crime for your own admitted inability to prevent all of it.
>
> And how can we psychically predict crime?

I don't expect you to, and I don't want you to. That's not the point
of the debate.

> > Unresponsive. I'm not asking what one should do, all I would be
> > interested in your answer. I am asking you what *you* would consider
> > to be reasonable force.
>
> You refuse to answer my question without useless bullshit and then expect me
> to answer yours.

You didn't understand the point of the question in the first place.

> > Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.
>
> Suicide is legal here and has been for many many years. Think, engage brain
> and speak. There is nothing illegal about suicide in England.

Well you learn something new everyday. So, the suicide attempt, you
promptly let her go and told her to do it at home where she wouldn't
disturb the peace?

> > Sure, cops do good work , but protecting life is incidental to your
> > job. Show me any legislation that requires you to protect any
> > specific life.
>
> All I can show is the definition of a constable under the oath we take.

Sure, print your oath.

> > Which is always after.
>
> No. Consistently it is during. We had many calls the other night of people
> attempting to break in, or currently damaging property, or suspicious
> persons ON premises, or a fight IN progress. In fact the majority of night
> calls very rarely are "after".

In the case of violent assault, during is too late. Even an extremely
rapid response, less than 5 minutes, is the difference between "about
to be assaulted" and "beaten stupid".

> > Another anectdote:
> > A few months ago in a Vancouver suburban mall complex, some of the
> > merchants noticed some suspcious men parked outside in a car. There
> > appeared to be casing several businesses with the intent to rob them.
> > They called the police with this information and indicated they
> > thought that a robbery was imminent. The police decided to triage
> > this to a lower priority, and thus did not respond. Sure enough the
> > men donned some masks, entered a jewellery store with a sawed off
> > shotgun, robbed the place, and fled. Not surprisingly the car (found
> > by description and the fact that the merchants had previously recorded
> > the license plate) turned out to be stolen, meaning this case now had
> > no leads.
>
> Maybe it was low priority. Do you know how many other things were happening
> that night? Or how many officers there were to respond? I doubt it.

I'm not criticizing the police. Of course they have to triage calls
based on what's happening. That's why I would *expect* a police force
that was interested in the safety and security of the citizen body
they are also members of would *want* civilians to vigorously defend
themselves from crime. If the store owners had also had shotguns, the
crooks would be easy to find.

> > So I call bullshit Leon. You know you can't respond to every call and
> > you know you only respond to a crime which is already in progress, or
> > one which is long over.
>
> Of course - a crime already in progress is what I am talking about. Did you
> just have a lightbulb moment?

A crime in progress is a hearbeat away from a crime long over.

> > That's my point Leon. It's impossible for someone else to save your
> > life. When it comes down to it you're the one that has to take
> > action.
>
> I know I am - well the police as a whole anyway.

Oh how droll.

> > What is reasonable force against a rapist Leon?
>
> Anything that comes to hand.

As long as she didn't bring it with her eh?

> > Apples vs. oranges Leon. The crime rate in the US has nothing to do
> > with the crime rate in the UK. There have historically been more
> > homicides in the US even when the UK and the US had similar firearms
> > laws (late 1800s).
>
> But there are more guns in the US and more gun crime.

But there *should* be fewer guns in the UK, specifically fewer
handguns, since 1996 and yet gun crime and in particular handgun crime
has risen since then. Peculiar, no?

> So if England wants
> less gun crime it should hardly copy a land where the opposite is taking
> place.

But crime, including gun crime, is on the decrease in the US despite
an increase in the number of areas where citizens can obtain CCW
permits.

> If I want to go on a diet I would hardly take tips off of a fat
> woman.

She's the one who has to work hardest, unlike the skinny chick who's
gifted with genetics.

> > I know Leon, it's pretty obvious that you're not much of a thinker.
>
> Shows how much you know.

All I know of you is what you've shown on RMA: ignorance, pedantry,
and trollishness.

> Most of my life was spent in education.

Slow learner?

> I studied,
> law, counselling and many other subjects.

Short attention span?

> I could, do and am running rings
> around you.

That all depends on your frame of reference.

Pierre


11 Aug 2003 16:32:17
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
..... > > > > I'll lead you by the hand, Leon:
> > > > The civilian interest is not in 'catching' the crim.
> > > Yet they are the first to complain if he is not caught.
> > Considering that 'they' is everybody but *you* (and yer mates), that's
> > hardly surprising.
> But they are not into catching the crim according to you. Bare in mind
that
> covers just as wide a range of people.

Have Nursey explain what a non sequitur is, Leon.
Perhaps you won't look so incredibly thick; although it's no guarantee or
anything.

> > If we didn't complain, there'd be no complaints at all, Leon- certainly
> > can't trust you to police yourselves.
> So you complain about things you dont even care about by your own
admission
> just for a way to fill time?

More an indication that the police fail to police themselves, and wouldn't
enter a complaint about it in any case.
*And* the fact that if you claim to do a job- to the exclusion of the
civilian doing it himself- you're not doing too well.
And you wouldn't complain about that either.

> > Yes, I remember, in England, 'give a loud cry for help'.
> > I assume you follow with- 'in case of your lungs filling with blood,
ring
> a
> > bell'.
> Ummmm no....

Don't tell me;
ringing a bell is illegal too?
or just having a bell- bloody great cudgels they are-

> > > And if you put him on a stretcher, chances are you would be put in
cuffs
> > too
> > > in order to investigate a possible assault.
> > So I've heard.
> > I hear you guys drink your tea hot too, so nothing surprises me about
you
> > anymore.
> You drink cold tea? I dont even like tea though.

Really; tell Nursie about the non-sequitur thing. Tell her that you look
like a thickie and don't know what it means.

> > Well; tell her thanks for me- I'm sure she reads beautifully and dealing
> > with the obdurately thick must be such a challenge for her. You're in
good
> > hands I'm sure.
> No Im male Chas.

I'm sure she made the right i.d. for you, Leon; they have medical training
in addition to all the special education stuff.
I'm almost positive she's right.
Here's another check for you, buddy; when you make it to the loo before you
wet yourself, did she tell you to sit or stand when you tinkle?

Chas




11 Aug 2003 22:00:58
story
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police



--
To reply direct it is STORYS @ EXECULINK DOT COM ALL LOWER CASE LETTERS
"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:WUSdna5PjrsYlKWiXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
>
> So I've heard.
> I hear you guys drink your tea hot too, so nothing surprises me about you
> anymore.
>


I've heard this about the States before. Is it true that tea is drunk cold
most of the time? If so, weird! In Canada most places if you ask for tea in
a restaurant of any kind at all & you don't specify how you want it you get
it hot. Doesn't mnatter if it is an ethnic restaurant or not. Hot is the way
it comes.

........................Tom.............................




12 Aug 2003 07:12:30
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:

>
> So youre at the stage where you hope that by repeating the same thing and
> ignoring my responses that I will agree with you. Ill say it again :

Yeah. You say it "again" and "again" and I just agree that that's what you're
saying.


> No one is saying should or should not. But it stands to REASON (look that
> one up) if someone had called the police sooner, we would have had more
> CHANCE of preventing such a serious injury.

Yeah, we know your opinion. According to your "police REASONing" it's the
victims fault that he got attacked. He shoulda called the police sooner. You
know, before he knew he was going to be attacked.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


12 Aug 2003 08:55:46
Kirk Lawson
Re: Hey Ron (was: Re: Colorado, the School and the Police)

Ron Tisdale wrote:
>
> Kirk Lawson <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message news:<3F33D845.D5870022@heapy.com_SPAMSUX>...
> > Ron Tisdale wrote:
> >
> > We've got a guy here in Dayton on the Radio named Tisdale. Any relation?
>
> Not that I know of...what's his first name?
> Ron

John. Or maybe Jon. 1290 AM, WHIO Dayton, OH.

Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


12 Aug 2003 09:46:41
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0308111339.70e580b7@posting.google.com...
> > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:<bh8okt$ckf$2@titan.btinternet.com>...
> > > "Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:2ZycnTa7o-uBUqqiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
> > > > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > > > > > > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
> > > > > > First choice is by arresting him on the stretcher.
> > > > > That another famous one liner straight from Colarado?
> > > >
> > > > There was only one question.
> > >
> > > Ill give you a tip. When you write a response it has to make sense and
> have
> > > something to do with the thing you are responding to.
> >
> > It did make sense. I understood it and I've never even been to Colorado.
>
> You would say that.

Yeah. He would. He's got this thing he does called "telling the truth." I'd
recommend that you try it but it might interfere with your job.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


12 Aug 2003 13:40:24
Badger North
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:00:58 -0400, "story" <Enough no more porn spam >
wrote:

>I've heard this about the States before. Is it true that tea is drunk cold
>most of the time? If so, weird! In Canada most places if you ask for tea in
>a restaurant of any kind at all & you don't specify how you want it you get
>it hot. Doesn't mnatter if it is an ethnic restaurant or not. Hot is the way
>it comes.

Depending on the region in the US, "iced tea" might refer to cold tea,
unsweetened, unlemoned, etc. Unfortunately, I can't remember what one
is supposed to ask for to get what we would expect as "iced tea"

Then again, a friend of mine was asked in a restaurant in the Deep
South "Y'all wan' green bread with thayat?" It took several tries
before she figured out the waitress meant "grain bread/whole wheat"

Badger Jones
http://members.rogers.com/badger
www.geocities.com/marxistdetective/taunting.htm


12 Aug 2003 20:10:07
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308111415.c92850a@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bh8oje$3ih$2@hercules.btinternet.com >...
> > "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> > news:c04f17d7.0308110933.4977d3d8@posting.google.com...
>
> > > Kirk hit it two times.
> >
> > But neither he nor you answered the question.
>
> The question was asked, by me, to point out the flaw in your "citizens
> don't need personal arms" argument. The flaw has been pointed out, by
> all involved, and thus *your* question is irrelevant.


Dont even remember what it was now.


>
> > > You copped out by blaming citizens lack of ability to psychically
> > > predict crime for your own admitted inability to prevent all of it.
> >
> > And how can we psychically predict crime?
>
> I don't expect you to, and I don't want you to. That's not the point
> of the debate.


Then how is it copping out or blaming to point out our intelligence comes
from citizens? I thought that was the point.


>
> > > Unresponsive. I'm not asking what one should do, all I would be
> > > interested in your answer. I am asking you what *you* would consider
> > > to be reasonable force.
> >
> > You refuse to answer my question without useless bullshit and then
expect me
> > to answer yours.
>
> You didn't understand the point of the question in the first place.


I forgot it anyway.


>
> > > Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.
> >
> > Suicide is legal here and has been for many many years. Think, engage
brain
> > and speak. There is nothing illegal about suicide in England.
>
> Well you learn something new everyday. So, the suicide attempt, you
> promptly let her go and told her to do it at home where she wouldn't
> disturb the peace?


No, I risked my neck and saved her in the mud and then suggested she try and
go home and take it easy so her unborn child does not end up a damaged or
dead one. Same as when a guy was trying to jump from a multi storey car park
today, we stopped him too. Why do you have to make smutty little comments
about something like that?


>
> > > Sure, cops do good work , but protecting life is incidental to your
> > > job. Show me any legislation that requires you to protect any
> > > specific life.
> >
> > All I can show is the definition of a constable under the oath we take.
>
> Sure, print your oath.


Its too long. Should be easy to find for a statistic searching web wizard
like yourself though.


>
> > > Which is always after.
> >
> > No. Consistently it is during. We had many calls the other night of
people
> > attempting to break in, or currently damaging property, or suspicious
> > persons ON premises, or a fight IN progress. In fact the majority of
night
> > calls very rarely are "after".
>
> In the case of violent assault, during is too late.


Until psychics prove themselves its all we have.


Even an extremely
> rapid response, less than 5 minutes, is the difference between "about
> to be assaulted" and "beaten stupid".


Try not to get assaulted then. Try and avoid shit holes and you have less
chance of being shat on. If you are, you may defend yourself reasonably.


>
> > > Another anectdote:
> > > A few months ago in a Vancouver suburban mall complex, some of the
> > > merchants noticed some suspcious men parked outside in a car. There
> > > appeared to be casing several businesses with the intent to rob them.
> > > They called the police with this information and indicated they
> > > thought that a robbery was imminent. The police decided to triage
> > > this to a lower priority, and thus did not respond. Sure enough the
> > > men donned some masks, entered a jewellery store with a sawed off
> > > shotgun, robbed the place, and fled. Not surprisingly the car (found
> > > by description and the fact that the merchants had previously recorded
> > > the license plate) turned out to be stolen, meaning this case now had
> > > no leads.
> >
> > Maybe it was low priority. Do you know how many other things were
happening
> > that night? Or how many officers there were to respond? I doubt it.
>
> I'm not criticizing the police. Of course they have to triage calls
> based on what's happening. That's why I would *expect* a police force
> that was interested in the safety and security of the citizen body
> they are also members of would *want* civilians to vigorously defend
> themselves from crime. If the store owners had also had shotguns, the
> crooks would be easy to find.


I do want citizens to reasonably defend themselves from crime. Not
vigorously, but reasonably.


>
> > > So I call bullshit Leon. You know you can't respond to every call and
> > > you know you only respond to a crime which is already in progress, or
> > > one which is long over.
> >
> > Of course - a crime already in progress is what I am talking about. Did
you
> > just have a lightbulb moment?
>
> A crime in progress is a hearbeat away from a crime long over.

Sometimes thats all we need.



>
> > > That's my point Leon. It's impossible for someone else to save your
> > > life. When it comes down to it you're the one that has to take
> > > action.
> >
> > I know I am - well the police as a whole anyway.
>
> Oh how droll.


I knew youd like that. I based that wit on yours.

>
> > > What is reasonable force against a rapist Leon?
> >
> > Anything that comes to hand.
>
> As long as she didn't bring it with her eh?

As long as she didnt bring it with her INTENDING to use it as a defensive
weapon. You are slowly getting there!



>
> > > Apples vs. oranges Leon. The crime rate in the US has nothing to do
> > > with the crime rate in the UK. There have historically been more
> > > homicides in the US even when the UK and the US had similar firearms
> > > laws (late 1800s).
> >
> > But there are more guns in the US and more gun crime.
>
> But there *should* be fewer guns in the UK, specifically fewer
> handguns, since 1996 and yet gun crime and in particular handgun crime
> has risen since then. Peculiar, no?


No. People are more crazy than ever.

> > If I want to go on a diet I would hardly take tips off of a fat
> > woman.
>
> She's the one who has to work hardest, unlike the skinny chick who's
> gifted with genetics.


But she obviously hasnt worked at all up to the point where she is so fat.
Skinny chicks are not so appealing anyway. GOOD LOOKING chicks tend to work
out.


>
> > > I know Leon, it's pretty obvious that you're not much of a thinker.
> >
> > Shows how much you know.
>
> All I know of you is what you've shown on RMA: ignorance, pedantry,
> and trollishness.


So whats my bad points?


>
> > Most of my life was spent in education.
>
> Slow learner?


Eager learner.


>
> > I studied,
> > law, counselling and many other subjects.
>
> Short attention span?


Thirst for knowledge.


>
> > I could, do and am running rings
> > around you.
>
> That all depends on your frame of reference.


My frame of reference is me leaping over you back and forth giggling whilst
you sit in the middle crying and making strange noises in frustration at not
being able to catch my wit. Or something that rhymes with that.


>
> Pierre




12 Aug 2003 16:13:39
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F38EFC1.5361512C@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > > > It did make sense. I understood it and I've never even been to
> Colorado.
> > >
> > > You would say that.
> >
> > Yeah. He would. He's got this thing he does called "telling the truth."
> I'd
> > recommend that you try it but it might interfere with your job.
>
> I think he, you and chas are the same person anyway. Just different dumb
> facets of the same warped mind.

All are Gichoke.

Resistance is futile.

Prepare to be assimilated...

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


12 Aug 2003 20:23:35
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@disco.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bh9jmd$8ol@disco.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bh8r2d$q5k$2@sparta.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:EoidnfSZa-c_d6qiXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> >> The police interest is in catching.
> >> The civilian interest is in protecting against them.
> >Which we can do if we are notified as soon as possible.
>
> Small solace to me if I'm being held up at knifepoint in London or
> Manchester...
>
> "What a country!"

Yes, in your country you can whip out your uzi and start blasting.




12 Aug 2003 20:25:00
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F38CB9E.19E21461@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> >
> > So youre at the stage where you hope that by repeating the same thing
and
> > ignoring my responses that I will agree with you. Ill say it again :
>
> Yeah. You say it "again" and "again" and I just agree that that's what
you're
> saying.


Rather than inventing crap? I hope so.
>
>
> > No one is saying should or should not. But it stands to REASON (look
that
> > one up) if someone had called the police sooner, we would have had more
> > CHANCE of preventing such a serious injury.
>
> Yeah, we know your opinion. According to your "police REASONing" it's the
> victims fault that he got attacked. He shoulda called the police sooner.
You
> know, before he knew he was going to be attacked.


Nope - try reading it again. Its still there. Tell me which bit you disagree
with and explain why.







12 Aug 2003 16:22:42
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F38CB9E.19E21461@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > So youre at the stage where you hope that by repeating the same thing
> and
> > > ignoring my responses that I will agree with you. Ill say it again :
> >
> > Yeah. You say it "again" and "again" and I just agree that that's what
> you're
> > saying.
>
> Rather than inventing crap? I hope so.

I don't have to invent any crap.

You've got that covered nicely.



> > > No one is saying should or should not. But it stands to REASON (look
> that
> > > one up) if someone had called the police sooner, we would have had more
> > > CHANCE of preventing such a serious injury.
> >
> > Yeah, we know your opinion. According to your "police REASONing" it's the
> > victims fault that he got attacked. He shoulda called the police sooner.
> You
> > know, before he knew he was going to be attacked.
>
> Nope - try reading it again. Its still there. Tell me which bit you disagree
> with and explain why.

The part where it's the citizen's fault for you not catching criminals since if
they woulda only called you sooner you coulda stopped it.

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


12 Aug 2003 20:29:11
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F38CCC1.94A56AA@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> > news:3F37BD78.B1CF0BA1@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Nah. He's say'n that if you get mugged it's your own fault
(couldn't
> > > > *possibly*
> > > > > be the cops fault for not catch'n crooks)
> > > >
> > > > And explain to me again how we are supposed to catch them?
> > >
> > > Right. It's the citizen's fault he got attacked.
> > >
> > > We've got that now, you can stop explaining it.
> >
> > LOL
>
> I'm not surprised that you laugh at someone being victimized. You
probably pull
> the wings off flies too.


Im laughing at how God victimised you.


> > The way you speak to yourself is positively funny.
>
> I'm speaking to myself? Are you one of the voices in Gichokes head too?


Nope but you are not responding to anything I say.


>
> Dude. It's getting crowded in here.

Got room for Pierre? Silly question. He is already in there in more ways
than one.


>
>
> > How about you explain
> > to me as you know more than I do obviously, how the police are supposed
to
> > catch criminals in the act?
>
> Gee ocifer. Why worry about that? It's the victim's fault, after all.

So you cant.


>
>
> > I grew out of such
> > stubbornness when I was about 5.
>
> And now that you're 6 and have a toy badge how do you feel?

Almost like you will in a years time. But you wont have the epaulettes.


>
>
>
> > > Yeah, you've already covered this. If the police fail to catch a
criminal
> > the
> > > fault lies with the citizens. We've got it already.
> >
> > Ok, your homework
>
> Gee Bob, don'tcha think you oughta do your own homework? Teacher will be
mad at
> you if you don't.


Deleting the homework wont get you out of it. I know you already read it.


>
> (IH)
> --
> "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge
> of their use."
> -Achille Marozzo, 1536
> --
> "...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists
> gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
> -Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts




12 Aug 2003 16:45:09
Jerry B. Altzman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <bhbic7$3b3$2@hercules.btinternet.com >,
Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:
>"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@disco.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
>news:bh9jmd$8ol@disco.cs.columbia.edu...
>> In article <bh8r2d$q5k$2@sparta.btinternet.com>,
>> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> >"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> >news:EoidnfSZa-c_d6qiXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
>> >> The police interest is in catching.
>> >> The civilian interest is in protecting against them.
>> >Which we can do if we are notified as soon as possible.
>> Small solace to me if I'm being held up at knifepoint in London or
>> Manchester...
>Yes, in your country you can whip out your uzi and start blasting.

I wish!
Ask yourself: would the world be a better place without peaceful, little
ol' me, or some nasty lawbreaking mugger thug type?

I know what my kids would say, given that I'm not the mugger.

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230 8750
jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com KE3ML


12 Aug 2003 21:31:30
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bhbjkl$67l@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bhbic7$3b3$2@hercules.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@disco.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
> >news:bh9jmd$8ol@disco.cs.columbia.edu...
> >> In article <bh8r2d$q5k$2@sparta.btinternet.com>,
> >> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> >"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:EoidnfSZa-c_d6qiXTWJiQ@comcast.com...
> >> >> The police interest is in catching.
> >> >> The civilian interest is in protecting against them.
> >> >Which we can do if we are notified as soon as possible.
> >> Small solace to me if I'm being held up at knifepoint in London or
> >> Manchester...
> >Yes, in your country you can whip out your uzi and start blasting.
>
> I wish!
> Ask yourself: would the world be a better place without peaceful, little
> ol' me, or some nasty lawbreaking mugger thug type?
>
> I know what my kids would say, given that I'm not the mugger.


Or some nasty gun toting maniac who would relish the chance to use extreme
violence lawfully.


>
> //jbaltz
> --
> jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230
8750
> jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com
KE3ML




12 Aug 2003 21:49:27
Coldblood
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX > wrote in message
news:3F394A73.CA28864B@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> Leon Macfayden wrote:
> >
> > "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> > news:3F38EFC1.5361512C@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > > > > It did make sense. I understood it and I've never even been to
> > Colorado.
> > > >
> > > > You would say that.
> > >
> > > Yeah. He would. He's got this thing he does called "telling the
truth."
> > I'd
> > > recommend that you try it but it might interfere with your job.
> >
> > I think he, you and chas are the same person anyway. Just different dumb
> > facets of the same warped mind.
>
> All are Gichoke.
>
> Resistance is futile.
>
> Prepare to be assimilated...
>

i dont want my ass to be stimulated...


leave me alone you sickos

andrew

> (IH)
> --
> "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge
> of their use."
> -Achille Marozzo, 1536
> --
> "...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists
> gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
> -Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts




12 Aug 2003 17:49:23
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Leon Macfayden wrote:

> > I know what my kids would say, given that I'm not the mugger.
>
> Or some nasty gun toting maniac who would relish the chance to use extreme
> violence lawfully.

What makes you think he wants to be a British Cop?

(IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


12 Aug 2003 16:02:14
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> How about having the surgeon who has gotten your foot out of your arse so
> many times explain to you that when YOU use the word "they" it means just
as
> the same as when I use the word "they". You cannot use the word "they" to
> prove your point whilst changing the meaning to dismiss mine. POP - was
that
> the big toe?

I'm sorry, Leon- I don't generally count coup on people, but you're proving
the utter thickie in every single exchange you've had with *anyone*. Geez;
you're like a little yellow duck in a shooting gallery.
The only reason that anyone talks to you at all is that you're such a
perfuckt jagoff. You give a whole new meaning to the words 'bad example';
you're kind of a really really *good* example- depending upon one's
iconography.
You're too good to even make up- I hope you're a troll- you make me fear for
my British Brothers in a police state.

> So you complain about things you dont even care about AND dont believe
have
> any point in being complained about for what reason again?

Pointless idealism; death wish, risk taking behaviour; as the immortal Ringo
Starr said, in the fillum classic 'Yellow Submarine'; I'm just a born
leverpuller.

> > Don't tell me;
> > ringing a bell is illegal too?
> > or just having a bell- bloody great cudgels they are-
> If thats your motivation then yes they would be illegal.

Geez; thanks.
I couldn't write this stuff all by myself, Leon; you're a classic.
'Wot's all this then? Ewe've got'ta great bloody cudgel there, mate! E'yere
not a bloody Cryer, ewe knauoo! Hit's off to gaol fer you, Chuckie!'
'Sarn't; iss bugger's got a bluddy assault Bell!'

> Tell surgy Im taking the piss out of you faster than he is getting that
foot
> out.

Hey; one mouthful at a time; that's all I could possibly expect from you.
G'day, mate-
oops, wrong dialect.

--
Chas
'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
http://www.chasclements.com
http://www.kuntaosilat.net




12 Aug 2003 16:03:11
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote
> Yes, in your country you can whip out your uzi and start blasting.

Hopefully; from your mouth to Dog's Ear.
good plan.

Chas




12 Aug 2003 16:05:12
Chas
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu > wrote
> I know what my kids would say, given that I'm not the mugger.

Me too buddy; and Trav told me you guys were talking over the world-
taking.... taking..... That would be *taking* over the world.
Anyway; you got my vote.

Chas




12 Aug 2003 21:59:16
Jerry B. Altzman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <qrmcnfviIapR-aSiXTWJhA@comcast.com >,
Chas <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote:
>"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote
>> I know what my kids would say, given that I'm not the mugger.
>Me too buddy; and Trav told me you guys were talking over the world-
>taking.... taking..... That would be *taking* over the world.

Freudian slip excused.
Of course, coming from a jewfuck like me, take it as you see fit.

>Anyway; you got my vote.

Much obliged. I'll inform the Masons and the Illuminati to spare you.

>Chas

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230 8750
jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com KE3ML


13 Aug 2003 08:22:08
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Coldblood" <doolbdloc@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:<Hhd_a.58700$LD6.1314591@news0.telusplanet.net>...
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> news:3F394A73.CA28864B@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > >
> > > "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklawson_SPAM@heapy.com_SPAMSUX> wrote in message
> > > news:3F38EFC1.5361512C@heapy.com_SPAMSUX...
> > > > Leon Macfayden wrote:
> > > > > > It did make sense. I understood it and I've never even been to
> Colorado.
> > > > >
> > > > > You would say that.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah. He would. He's got this thing he does called "telling the
> truth."
> I'd
> > > > recommend that you try it but it might interfere with your job.
> > >
> > > I think he, you and chas are the same person anyway. Just different dumb
> > > facets of the same warped mind.
> >
> > All are Gichoke.
> >
> > Resistance is futile.
> >
> > Prepare to be assimilated...
> >
>
> i dont want my ass to be stimulated...
>
> leave me alone you sickos

You heard him Madonna, you can go home now.

Pierre


13 Aug 2003 09:17:42
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bhbhit$8vv$2@titan.btinternet.com>...

> My frame of reference is me leaping over you back and forth giggling whilst
> you sit in the middle crying and making strange noises in frustration at not
> being able to catch my wit. Or something that rhymes with that.

Jest another frogging troll then. I don't mind arguing with you, but
I want you to give an honest effort, at least.

Pierre


13 Aug 2003 18:56:31
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bhbodd$7h3@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bhbmbh$fq9$2@titan.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
> >news:bhbjkl$67l@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
> >> I wish!
> >> Ask yourself: would the world be a better place without peaceful,
little
> >> ol' me, or some nasty lawbreaking mugger thug type?
> >> I know what my kids would say, given that I'm not the mugger.
> >Or some nasty gun toting maniac who would relish the chance to use
extreme
> >violence lawfully.
>
> If it's lawful, what's the problem?


Because it ISNT lawful - I said you would relish it if it was. Much the same
way as a cannibal would relish the chance to eat human flesh lawfully - but
it isnt lawful. I can see where you have been going wrong.


KE3ML




13 Aug 2003 15:23:42
Jerry B. Altzman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <bhe1ku$gcp$2@hercules.btinternet.com >,
Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:
>"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
>news:bhbodd$7h3@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
>> In article <bhbmbh$fq9$2@titan.btinternet.com>,
>> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> >"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
>> >news:bhbjkl$67l@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
>> >Or some nasty gun toting maniac who would relish the chance to use
>extreme
>> >violence lawfully.
>> If it's lawful, what's the problem?

>Because it ISNT lawful - I said you would relish it if it was. Much the same

You're the one who said "lawfully" -- what's your problem?

Let's step back another step: where does it say that I'd *relish* using
extreme violence? I just want to get home alive, but if someone's out to
kill me, I want to use everything at my disposal (including extreme
violence) to do so. If it's lawful, that makes my life a little easier,
but it's not my primary concern. If I can scare a knife-toting thug away
by going "boo", I'd be happy to use that instead of your strawman's uzi.

>way as a cannibal would relish the chance to eat human flesh lawfully - but
>it isnt lawful. I can see where you have been going wrong.

Not eating human flesh?
I imagine it tastes like chicken.

>KE3ML

Yes, that's my callsign. It doesn't fit you well -- yours would start with
G or M most likely.

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230 8750
jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com KE3ML


13 Aug 2003 19:51:06
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bhe37u$2sb@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bhe1ku$gcp$2@hercules.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
> >news:bhbodd$7h3@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
> >> In article <bhbmbh$fq9$2@titan.btinternet.com>,
> >> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> >"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
> >> >news:bhbjkl$67l@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
> >> >Or some nasty gun toting maniac who would relish the chance to use
> >extreme
> >> >violence lawfully.
> >> If it's lawful, what's the problem?
>
> >Because it ISNT lawful - I said you would relish it if it was. Much the
same
>
> You're the one who said "lawfully" -- what's your problem?



I said you would relish the chance to use extreme violence lawfully. Can you
not grasp the meaning?

>
> Let's step back another step: where does it say that I'd *relish* using
> extreme violence?


I said that. It says it up above.


I just want to get home alive, but if someone's out to
> kill me, I want to use everything at my disposal (including extreme
> violence) to do so. If it's lawful, that makes my life a little easier,
> but it's not my primary concern. If I can scare a knife-toting thug away
> by going "boo", I'd be happy to use that instead of your strawman's uzi.



I doubt it from the way you have been talking.

>
> >way as a cannibal would relish the chance to eat human flesh lawfully -
but
> >it isnt lawful. I can see where you have been going wrong.
>
> Not eating human flesh?
> I imagine it tastes like chicken.
>
> >KE3ML
>
> Yes, that's my callsign. It doesn't fit you well -- yours would start with
> G or M most likely.


Nice.


>
> //jbaltz
> --
> jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230
8750
> jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com
KE3ML




13 Aug 2003 19:56:50
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Chas" <c.clements@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:ML2cnRHU0v2H-aSiXTWJhA@comcast.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote
> > How about having the surgeon who has gotten your foot out of your arse
so
> > many times explain to you that when YOU use the word "they" it means
just
> as
> > the same as when I use the word "they". You cannot use the word "they"
to
> > prove your point whilst changing the meaning to dismiss mine. POP - was
> that
> > the big toe?
>
> I'm sorry, Leon- I don't generally count coup on people, but you're
proving
> the utter thickie in every single exchange you've had with *anyone*.


They are all clones of you so "anyone" is not too wide a definition. And I
would seem thick to you. People who thought the world was round seemed thick
when there were more people who thought it was flat.


Geez;
> you're like a little yellow duck in a shooting gallery.
> The only reason that anyone talks to you at all is that you're such a
> perfuckt jagoff.


And I thought it was because I was a nice guy.


You give a whole new meaning to the words 'bad example';
> you're kind of a really really *good* example- depending upon one's
> iconography.


Riiiiiiight.


> You're too good to even make up-



I know!


I hope you're a troll- you make me fear for
> my British Brothers in a police state.



Those the british brothers you have been slagging off every chance you get?


>
> > So you complain about things you dont even care about AND dont believe
> have
> > any point in being complained about for what reason again?
>
> Pointless idealism;

No point in that.



>death wish,


Not a real one.


>risk taking behaviour;


Complaining about some cops? You daredevil.



>as the immortal Ringo
> Starr said, in the fillum classic 'Yellow Submarine'; I'm just a born
> leverpuller.



Or a jackass depending upon your iconography.


>
> > > Don't tell me;
> > > ringing a bell is illegal too?
> > > or just having a bell- bloody great cudgels they are-
> > If thats your motivation then yes they would be illegal.
>
> Geez; thanks.
> I couldn't write this stuff all by myself, Leon; you're a classic.



Thank Parliament.


> 'Wot's all this then? Ewe've got'ta great bloody cudgel there, mate!
E'yere
> not a bloody Cryer, ewe knauoo! Hit's off to gaol fer you, Chuckie!'
> 'Sarn't; iss bugger's got a bluddy assault Bell!'


Typical stereotyping of the way the english are supposed to speak by an
ignorant american who in his own dream world believes he has lived here but
proves time and again what an utter lie this is. Either that or you lived in
a cave.


>
> > Tell surgy Im taking the piss out of you faster than he is getting that
> foot
> > out.
>
> Hey; one mouthful at a time; that's all I could possibly expect from you.
> G'day, mate-
> oops, wrong dialect.


I dont expect you to know the difference between australia and the UK. You
are in america and as such are famous for your lack of knowledge concerning
the rest of the world.



>
> --
> Chas
> 'It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!'
> http://www.chasclements.com
> http://www.kuntaosilat.net
>
>




13 Aug 2003 20:10:34
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308130817.1959b5e5@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bhbhit$8vv$2@titan.btinternet.com >...
>
> > My frame of reference is me leaping over you back and forth giggling
whilst
> > you sit in the middle crying and making strange noises in frustration at
not
> > being able to catch my wit. Or something that rhymes with that.
>
> Jest another frogging troll then. I don't mind arguing with you, but
> I want you to give an honest effort, at least.

I have not needed to make any effort yet. This is all half hearted with my
eyes half closed and its good already!


>
> Pierre




13 Aug 2003 18:11:00
Jerry B. Altzman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <bhe4r9$sgh$2@titan.btinternet.com >,
Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote:
>"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
>news:bhe37u$2sb@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
>> >Because it ISNT lawful - I said you would relish it if it was. Much the
>same
>> You're the one who said "lawfully" -- what's your problem?
>I said you would relish the chance to use extreme violence lawfully. Can you
>not grasp the meaning?

AHh -- to me the implication was something else. I'll concede that your
writing could be clearer.

In any case: no, I would *not* relish the chance to use extreme violence,
of any time, at any time.
Bloodlust isn't my thing.

>> Let's step back another step: where does it say that I'd *relish* using
>> extreme violence?
>I said that. It says it up above.

Oh -- so you, who have never met me, and only knows me vis-a-vis my
statements concerning your hypocrisy and inconsistency and the silliness
of Britain's weapon laws.

> I just want to get home alive, but if someone's out to
>> kill me, I want to use everything at my disposal (including extreme
>> violence) to do so. If it's lawful, that makes my life a little easier,
>> but it's not my primary concern. If I can scare a knife-toting thug away
>> by going "boo", I'd be happy to use that instead of your strawman's uzi.
>I doubt it from the way you have been talking.

Well, it appears you're wrong.
Wouldn't be the first time today, I'm sure.

//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230 8750
jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com KE3ML


13 Aug 2003 22:55:57
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@disco.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bhed1k$bpp@disco.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bhe4r9$sgh$2@titan.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@flame.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
> >news:bhe37u$2sb@flame.cs.columbia.edu...
> >> >Because it ISNT lawful - I said you would relish it if it was. Much
the
> >same
> >> You're the one who said "lawfully" -- what's your problem?
> >I said you would relish the chance to use extreme violence lawfully. Can
you
> >not grasp the meaning?
>
> AHh -- to me the implication was something else. I'll concede that your
> writing could be clearer.


I cocede you could be slightly more intelligent.



>
> In any case: no, I would *not* relish the chance to use extreme violence,
> of any time, at any time.
> Bloodlust isn't my thing.

You just act well eh?



>
> >> Let's step back another step: where does it say that I'd *relish* using
> >> extreme violence?
> >I said that. It says it up above.
>
> Oh -- so you, who have never met me, and only knows me vis-a-vis my
> statements concerning your hypocrisy and inconsistency and the silliness
> of Britain's weapon laws.

Funny that thats what Ive said about you. In fact you wrote it so well Ill
adopt it too. Read that paragraph and apply it to me.



>
> > I just want to get home alive, but if someone's out to
> >> kill me, I want to use everything at my disposal (including extreme
> >> violence) to do so. If it's lawful, that makes my life a little easier,
> >> but it's not my primary concern. If I can scare a knife-toting thug
away
> >> by going "boo", I'd be happy to use that instead of your strawman's
uzi.
> >I doubt it from the way you have been talking.
>
> Well, it appears you're wrong.
> Wouldn't be the first time today, I'm sure.


Wouldnt be the first time Ive been ACCUSED of it, but I havent been wrong
today yet.


>
> //jbaltz
> --
> jerry b. altzman There is no universe -- P. Halmos +1 646 230
8750
> jbaltz@cs.columbia.edu jbaltz@omnipod.com
KE3ML




14 Aug 2003 12:27:42
Karim Rashad
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:23:42 +0000, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> Not eating human flesh?
> I imagine it tastes like chicken.

I bet it's way more like pork. Swine seem real close to us in many ways.
Right; off for a bacon sandwich....

--
Karim Rashad <remove SPAMFREE: krashad at SPAMorbisFREEuk.com >



14 Aug 2003 16:01:37
Robert Low
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


Karim Rashad <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:23:42 +0000, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
>> I imagine it tastes like chicken.
>I bet it's way more like pork.

I believe that's why it's known as 'long pig' amongst those
who eat it.
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/


14 Aug 2003 09:31:16
Pierre Honeyman
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

"Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com > wrote in message news:<bhe5vp$mpo$2@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0308130817.1959b5e5@posting.google.com...
> > "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:<bhbhit$8vv$2@titan.btinternet.com>...
> >
> > > My frame of reference is me leaping over you back and forth giggling
> whilst
> > > you sit in the middle crying and making strange noises in frustration at
> not
> > > being able to catch my wit. Or something that rhymes with that.
> >
> > Jest another frogging troll then. I don't mind arguing with you, but
> > I want you to give an honest effort, at least.
>
> I have not needed to make any effort yet. This is all half hearted with my
> eyes half closed and its good already!

Hmmm...I seem to remember some study about a class of underperformers
who had a vastly overinflated sense of their own ability. Dunno why
that sprung to mind, but I think I'll try to find it...

Pierre


14 Aug 2003 23:19:25
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0308140831.449e678d@posting.google.com...
> "Leon Macfayden" <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:<bhe5vp$mpo$2@hercules.btinternet.com >...
> > I have not needed to make any effort yet. This is all half hearted with
my
> > eyes half closed and its good already!
>
> Hmmm...I seem to remember some study about a class of underperformers
> who had a vastly overinflated sense of their own ability. Dunno why
> that sprung to mind, but I think I'll try to find it...



I dont know why it sprung to mind either. I was being modest!
>
> Pierre




14 Aug 2003 23:21:06
Leon Macfayden
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police


"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@dynasty.cs.columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:bhgorm$85d@dynasty.cs.columbia.edu...
> In article <bhefls$gs$3@sparta.btinternet.com>,
> Leon Macfayden <Leon.Macfayden@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz@disco.cs.columbia.edu> wrote in message
> >news:bhed1k$bpp@disco.cs.columbia.edu...
> >> AHh -- to me the implication was something else. I'll concede that your
> >> writing could be clearer.
> >I cocede you could be slightly more intelligent.
>
> I'll leave the irony of your statement for all to see.


Theres no irony. I did not add "than me" to the end of the sentence. The
meaning is clear.


>
> >> In any case: no, I would *not* relish the chance to use extreme
violence,
> >> of any time, at any time.
> >> Bloodlust isn't my thing.
> >You just act well eh?
>
> ??? You 'R' Confused.
> I've never even espoused anything other than my desire to be able to carry
> a useful tool.


Useful for caving someones head in eh?


>
> >> statements concerning your hypocrisy and inconsistency and the
silliness
> >> of Britain's weapon laws.
> >Funny that thats what Ive said about you. In fact you wrote it so well
Ill
> >adopt it too. Read that paragraph and apply it to me.
>
> ??? You 'R' Confused squared.

You didnt know which bit to read did you?








16 Aug 2003 18:29:39
Steve Gombosi
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <c04f17d7.0308110933.4977d3d8@posting.google.com >,
Pierre Honeyman <phoneyman@telus.net > wrote:

>Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.

Are you sure about that?

There are, for instance, no laws against suicide in Colorado.

Steve


18 Aug 2003 09:28:16
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Steve Gombosi wrote:
>
> In article <c04f17d7.0308110933.4977d3d8@posting.google.com>,
> Pierre Honeyman <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote:
>
> >Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.
>
> Are you sure about that?
>
> There are, for instance, no laws against suicide in Colorado.
>
> Steve

Anti-Suicide is Common Lawed over from England. Assisted Suicides are not legal
for that reason. :P

Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


18 Aug 2003 09:52:25
Kirk Lawson
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

Robert Low wrote:
>
> Steve Gombosi <sog@niwot.scd.ucar.edu> wrote:
> >Pierre Honeyman <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote:
> >>Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.
> >Are you sure about that?
>
> I was under the impression that the US situation was the
> same as the UK one: suicide (or, more precisely, attempted
> suicide---there's not a whole lot you can do to somebody
> who's successful) is legal, but assisting suicide is not.

Dates back to pre-colonial British Common Law when Suicide was a Mortal Sin.
There's some evidence to indicate that it was also believed that Suicides did so
in the hope of becoming a Vampire or other undead or as fulfillment of a Satanic
Contract of some sort.

Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge
of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists
gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts


20 Aug 2003 08:10:12
Steve Gombosi
Re: Colorado, the School and the Police

In article <bhnrrp$mtc$1@sunbeam.coventry.ac.uk >,
Robert Low <mtx014@linux.services.coventry.ac.uk > wrote:

>Steve Gombosi <sog@niwot.scd.ucar.edu> wrote:
>>Pierre Honeyman <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote:
>>>Sure it is. I don't know anywhere that suicide is legal.
>>Are you sure about that?

>I was under the impression that the US situation was the
>same as the UK one: suicide (or, more precisely, attempted
>suicide---there's not a whole lot you can do to somebody
>who's successful) is legal, but assisting suicide is not.

It's not a Federal matter. The laws on this vary from state to
state. I know of no state where attempted suicide is illegal.

There probably is one, but I just don't know about it.

Doctor-assisted suicide was legalized in Oregon by referendum in 1994,
but implementation was delayed by legal challenges until 1997.
I don't think it's legal anywhere else in the States.

Steve