31 Mar 2006 13:36:02
MuTsun Tsai
How to judge a juggler?

This is of course a common argument here, and certainly I'm not going to
dominate the answer; I just like to gather some opinion and share with
everyone here.

First, a absolutely common way is to judge by juggling skill level. But the
question then becomes "how to judge skill level?" There're certain ways, for
examples, to judge by the numbers of objects the one juggle (AFAIK this is
the most common way to judge a juggler, by both professions and amateurs and
lay people), by the numbers of tricks the juggler can do, by the fastest
speed the juggler can reach, or, by the most difficult trick the juggler can
do.
As for the last judgement, the question becomes further as "how to judge the
difficulty of a trick?" Someone judge by how many people who can do this
trick, that is, the less number of people, the more difficult the trick is.

Second, another common way is to judge by entertaining skill level. This is
certainly a different point of view than to judge by juggling skill alone,
because we know that there're many jugglers who do very easy,
but entertaining moves, such as eating an apple. There're also some jugglers
entertain people by copy other's routine, which is often considered to be
wrong. However, some creative jugglers do entertain people by new routines
and self-invented new tricks, make its show very funny and impressive.
The question is still the same : how to quantify entertainment and judge it?
This is a difficult question this time, becomes people all have different
feeling to the same show. Someone will judge it by the income of the shows,
that is, if two jugglers perform on the same street at the same time, who
will have better income, something like this. But this might not be a good
judgement since it is effected by too many factors. Someone just simply
judge by "how much does this guy entertains ME". Well this is simple enough,
and quite fair, since judgement is, after all, given by himself.

Of course there are other ways to judge a juggler, for examples, by its
fame, by its posture and look, or by the way the juggler influence the
juggling society, and so on.

So what's your judgement? Think about it, and if you like to, share with us
here.




31 Mar 2006 11:12:40
Harm1
Re: How to judge a juggler?

MuTsun Tsai wrote:
> First, a absolutely common way is to judge by juggling skill level. But the
> question then becomes "how to judge skill level> As for the last judgement,
> the question becomes further as "how to judge the difficulty of a trick?"

Different tricks ar difficult for different people. I find pirouettes (3b
3up 360 for example) quite hard, many people think it's basic level
though. I think the best way to judge the difficulty of a trick would be
to have as many people as you can that can do a certain trick or have a
good idea how difficult it is to judge how difficult a trick is on a scale
of 1 - 10.

> Second, another common way is to judge by entertaining skill level.
> The question is still the same : how to quantify entertainment and judge it?
> Someone just simply judge by "how much does this guy entertains ME". Well
> this is simple enough, and quite fair, since judgement is, after all, given
> by himself.

Well you've given they answer didn't you. Get as many non-jugglers as you
can. This is called an audience. Let the jugglers perform their routines.
Let the audience give 1 point to the three acts they liked best (like the
wjvf scoring system). Look who got most of the points. He/she was most
entertaining. If you want you can have a professional jury look for
originality etc.





----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----



31 Mar 2006 11:33:00
popstar_dave
Re: How to judge a juggler?

Harm1 wrote:
> MuTsun Tsai wrote:
> > First, a absolutely common way is to judge by juggling skill level. But
the
> > question then becomes "how to judge skill level> As for the last judgement,
> > the question becomes further as "how to judge the difficulty of a trick?"
>
> Different tricks ar difficult for different people. I find pirouettes (3b
> 3up 360 for example) quite hard, many people think it's basic level
> though. I think the best way to judge the difficulty of a trick would be
> to have as many people as you can that can do a certain trick or have a
> good idea how difficult it is to judge how difficult a trick is on a scale
> of 1 - 10.
>
> > Second, another common way is to judge by entertaining skill level.
> > The question is still the same : how to quantify entertainment and judge
it?
> > Someone just simply judge by "how much does this guy entertains ME". Well
> > this is simple enough, and quite fair, since judgement is, after all, given
> > by himself.
>
> Well you've given they answer didn't you. Get as many non-jugglers as you
> can. This is called an audience. Let the jugglers perform their routines.
> Let the audience give 1 point to the three acts they liked best (like the
> wjvf scoring system). Look who got most of the points. He/she was most
> entertaining. If you want you can have a professional jury look for
> originality etc.
>

Hmmm...
Get as many non-jugglers as you can: "The Internet"
Let the jugglers perform their routines: "Record a routine and release it"
Let the audience give 1 point: "Forward this clip to a friend"
Look who got most of the points: "See how much publicity this clip gets"

Now let's calculate the most entertaining juggler of late...

Cheers,
Dave

----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----



31 Mar 2006 12:50:56
Rory Parle
Re: How to judge a juggler?

popstar_dave wrote:

> Harm1 wrote:
>
>> MuTsun Tsai wrote:
>>
>>> Second, another common way is to judge by entertaining skill
>>> level. The question is still the same : how to quantify
>>> entertainment and judge it? Someone just simply judge by "how
>>> much does this guy entertains ME". Well this is simple enough,
>>> and quite fair, since judgement is, after all, given by himself.
>>
>> Well you've given they answer didn't you. Get as many non-jugglers
>> as you can. This is called an audience. Let the jugglers perform
>> their routines. Let the audience give 1 point to the three acts
>> they liked best (like the wjvf scoring system). Look who got most
>> of the points. He/she was most entertaining. If you want you can
>> have a professional jury look for originality etc.
>
> Hmmm... Get as many non-jugglers as you can: "The Internet" Let the
> jugglers perform their routines: "Record a routine and release it"
> Let the audience give 1 point: "Forward this clip to a friend" Look
> who got most of the points: "See how much publicity this clip gets"
>
> Now let's calculate the most entertaining juggler of late...

Votes shouldn't count if most of the people have only seen one video.

--
Rory Parle
http://www.soylentred.net/


31 Mar 2006 14:08:18
marco
Re: How to judge a juggler?

I think jugglers should be judged on their haircut!

Marco




"MuTsun Tsai" <don.tsai@ms5.url.com.tw > schreef in bericht news:442cbf5c$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
> This is of course a common argument here, and certainly I'm not going to dominate the answer; I just like to gather some
> opinion and share with everyone here.
>
> First, a absolutely common way is to judge by juggling skill level. But the question then becomes "how to judge skill
> level?" There're certain ways, for examples, to judge by the numbers of objects the one juggle (AFAIK this is the most
> common way to judge a juggler, by both professions and amateurs and lay people), by the numbers of tricks the juggler can
> do, by the fastest speed the juggler can reach, or, by the most difficult trick the juggler can do.
> As for the last judgement, the question becomes further as "how to judge the difficulty of a trick?" Someone judge by how
> many people who can do this trick, that is, the less number of people, the more difficult the trick is.
>
> Second, another common way is to judge by entertaining skill level. This is certainly a different point of view than to
> judge by juggling skill alone, because we know that there're many jugglers who do very easy,
> but entertaining moves, such as eating an apple. There're also some jugglers entertain people by copy other's routine,
> which is often considered to be wrong. However, some creative jugglers do entertain people by new routines and
> self-invented new tricks, make its show very funny and impressive.
> The question is still the same : how to quantify entertainment and judge it? This is a difficult question this time,
> becomes people all have different feeling to the same show. Someone will judge it by the income of the shows, that is, if
> two jugglers perform on the same street at the same time, who will have better income, something like this. But this might
> not be a good judgement since it is effected by too many factors. Someone just simply judge by "how much does this guy
> entertains ME". Well this is simple enough, and quite fair, since judgement is, after all, given by himself.
>
> Of course there are other ways to judge a juggler, for examples, by its fame, by its posture and look, or by the way the
> juggler influence the juggling society, and so on.
>
> So what's your judgement? Think about it, and if you like to, share with us here.
>
>




31 Mar 2006 12:43:40
Luke Burrage
Re: How to judge a juggler?

MuTsun Tsai wrote:
> This is of course a common argument here, and certainly I'm not going to
> dominate the answer; I just like to gather some opinion and share with
> everyone here.

Before you go in to the following, first you should ask what you are
judging. One of the following?

Technical ability/skill level
Originality
Influence
Numbers records
Their act
Their performance skills
How much fun they have



Secondly you should ask "Which of the above is most important?". Does high
technical skill make someone "better" than another juggler who
concentrates more on original and groundbreaking skills. Is a juggler who
only performs a single act and looks at juggling as purely a job "better"
or "worse" than a juggler who loves juggling so much that they want to do
it all the time, share as much about juggling with other people, talk
about it all the time...

Thirdly you should make up an advanced matrix listing every acheivement by
every big name juggler ever comparing relative difficulty of feats of
skill on a weighted sliding time scale (doing the same trick once everyone
else has learnt it is far, far easier than being the first) along with the
projected greatness of current jugglers in terms of ultimate skill level
and popularity attained, along with number of times they laugh while
practicing.

Personally I think we should keep all these things seperate. It is easy to
pick out the highest performers in individual categories such as technical
skills with clubs, numbers ring juggling, creativity, original
performances, dropless acts, comedy, 3 ball juggling, devilstick, etc.

But comparing achievements in one are with another is pointless. Also it
could be quite damaging to the juggling world. If the only thing that is
held up as "worthy" or "great" by other jugglers is pure technical skill,
those starting out who want to impress others will only concentrate on
their 5 ball pirouette sequences.

However, I personally believe technical ability is just a tiny part of
what makes good jugglers great. Instead it is the jugglers' originaity,
performance skills, their great acts, their characters, their knowledge
and their enthusiasm that wins out any day of the week.


Also: subjectivity is a Good Thing™.


Luke Burrage - is gonna thow this here stone first.







----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----



31 Mar 2006 21:26:30
MuTsun Tsai
Re: How to judge a juggler?

> I find pirouettes (3b
> 3up 360 for example) quite hard, many people think it's basic level
> though.

Yeah, it's hard to me too. Even 1up pirouette is not that easy to me.
I still drop sometimes.

> Well you've given they answer didn't you.

Oops, did I?




31 Mar 2006 16:25:29
bovrilboy
Re: How to judge a juggler?

marco wrote:
> I think jugglers should be judged on their haircut!
>
> Marco
>
>.
> >
> >
and the size of their balls!

bb


----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----



01 Apr 2006 00:41:42
MuTsun Tsai
Re: How to judge a juggler?

> and the size of their balls!
>
> bb

Thaaaats good, alright... Thaaaaaaaaaaaaats goooooood!!




31 Mar 2006 09:01:10
monotone2k
Re: How to judge a juggler?

No long essay from me on this one...

If you wish to judge a juggler on technicality from another jugglers
point of view, simply stand them on a stage in front of a panel of
experts.

If you wish to judge a juggler on merit of their entertainment skills,
then simply stand them in front of a live public audience and wait for
the response.

No bias from me, I'm neither entertaining nor a good technical juggler,
and I don't aspire to be either... just stating both points of view
(much like the other intelligent posters on r.j).

mono



31 Mar 2006 09:28:17
master3bs
Re: How to judge a juggler?

<<Well you've given they answer didn't you. Get as many non-jugglers as
you
can. This is called an audience. Let the jugglers perform their
routines.
Let the audience give 1 point to the three acts they liked best (like
the
wjvf scoring system). Look who got most of the points. He/she was most
entertaining. If you want you can have a professional jury look for
originality etc. >>

Non jugglers are not knowledgable enough to rate juggling. The "eating
an apple" trick will win every time.

I agree that entertainment should be a factor, but it can never be the
biggest factor. Just ask JG.



02 Apr 2006 01:25:16
Prefanatic
Re: How to judge a juggler?

MuTsun Tsai wrote:
> This is of course a common argument here, and certainly I'm not going to
> dominate the answer; I just like to gather some opinion and share with
> everyone here.
>
> First, a absolutely common way is to judge by juggling skill level. But the
> question then becomes "how to judge skill level?" There're certain ways, for
> examples, to judge by the numbers of objects the one juggle (AFAIK this is
> the most common way to judge a juggler, by both professions and amateurs and
> lay people), by the numbers of tricks the juggler can do, by the fastest
> speed the juggler can reach, or, by the most difficult trick the juggler can
> do.
> As for the last judgement, the question becomes further as "how to judge the
> difficulty of a trick?" Someone judge by how many people who can do this
> trick, that is, the less number of people, the more difficult the trick is.
>
> Second, another common way is to judge by entertaining skill level. This is
> certainly a different point of view than to judge by juggling skill alone,
> because we know that there're many jugglers who do very easy,
> but entertaining moves, such as eating an apple. There're also some jugglers
> entertain people by copy other's routine, which is often considered to be
> wrong. However, some creative jugglers do entertain people by new routines
> and self-invented new tricks, make its show very funny and impressive.
> The question is still the same : how to quantify entertainment and judge it?
> This is a difficult question this time, becomes people all have different
> feeling to the same show. Someone will judge it by the income of the shows,
> that is, if two jugglers perform on the same street at the same time, who
> will have better income, something like this. But this might not be a good
> judgement since it is effected by too many factors. Someone just simply
> judge by "how much does this guy entertains ME". Well this is simple enough,
> and quite fair, since judgement is, after all, given by himself.
>
> Of course there are other ways to judge a juggler, for examples, by its
> fame, by its posture and look, or by the way the juggler influence the
> juggling society, and so on.
>
> So what's your judgement? Think about it, and if you like to, share with us
> here.



I would rate a juggler on the following things if your not 100% sure ask
your self the question after what to rate them on to find out

1: creativety(how original was the trick?)
2: Difficty(how hard was the trick?)
3: Transitions( did they move straight from one trick to another? if so
how hard was the conection? or did they re-enter a basic patern before
doing the next trick?

Things to take points off for
1: Moving of the feet (unintention and unnecissary)
2: dropping
3: colisions( 2 objects hitting each other in the air)


simple enough I hope this helps


----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----



02 Apr 2006 04:12:06
popstar_dave
Re: How to judge a juggler?

Prefanatic wrote:
> MuTsun Tsai wrote:
> > This is of course a common argument here, and certainly I'm not going to
> > dominate the answer; I just like to gather some opinion and share with
> > everyone here.
> >
> > First, a absolutely common way is to judge by juggling skill level. But
the
> > question then becomes "how to judge skill level?" There're certain ways,
for
> > examples, to judge by the numbers of objects the one juggle (AFAIK this is
> > the most common way to judge a juggler, by both professions and amateurs
and
> > lay people), by the numbers of tricks the juggler can do, by the fastest
> > speed the juggler can reach, or, by the most difficult trick the juggler
can
> > do.
> > As for the last judgement, the question becomes further as "how to judge
the
> > difficulty of a trick?" Someone judge by how many people who can do this
> > trick, that is, the less number of people, the more difficult the trick is.
> >
> > Second, another common way is to judge by entertaining skill level. This
is
> > certainly a different point of view than to judge by juggling skill alone,
> > because we know that there're many jugglers who do very easy,
> > but entertaining moves, such as eating an apple. There're also some
jugglers
> > entertain people by copy other's routine, which is often considered to be
> > wrong. However, some creative jugglers do entertain people by new routines
> > and self-invented new tricks, make its show very funny and impressive.
> > The question is still the same : how to quantify entertainment and judge
it?
> > This is a difficult question this time, becomes people all have different
> > feeling to the same show. Someone will judge it by the income of the
shows,
> > that is, if two jugglers perform on the same street at the same time, who
> > will have better income, something like this. But this might not be a good
> > judgement since it is effected by too many factors. Someone just simply
> > judge by "how much does this guy entertains ME". Well this is simple
enough,
> > and quite fair, since judgement is, after all, given by himself.
> >
> > Of course there are other ways to judge a juggler, for examples, by its
> > fame, by its posture and look, or by the way the juggler influence the
> > juggling society, and so on.
> >
> > So what's your judgement? Think about it, and if you like to, share with
us
> > here.
>
>
>
> I would rate a juggler on the following things if your not 100% sure ask
> your self the question after what to rate them on to find out
>
> 1: creativety(how original was the trick?)
> 2: Difficty(how hard was the trick?)
> 3: Transitions( did they move straight from one trick to another? if so
> how hard was the conection? or did they re-enter a basic patern before
> doing the next trick?
>
> Things to take points off for
> 1: Moving of the feet (unintention and unnecissary)
> 2: dropping
> 3: colisions( 2 objects hitting each other in the air)
>
>
> simple enough I hope this helps
>
>
> ----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----

How 'bout you also take point off for catching the club by the wrong end.
Or maybe you could just cut and past the rules section from the WJF
website in its entirity...

Dave

----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----



03 Apr 2006 06:50:31
master3bs
Re: How to judge a juggler?

Not a bad idea.

BTW, I'm making the transition to clubs; and last night I developed the
bad habit of catching the club at the wrong end. Every other time I
started a pattern it happened.



04 Apr 2006 10:07:13
Little Paul
Re: How to judge a juggler?

On 2006-04-04, popstar_dave <dcheetham@gmail.com.nospam > wrote:
> Hmmmm... maybe next time I'll use <patronise> tags.

next time, could you just trim out all the crap that's not relevant to
the bit of the post you're replying to so that I don't have to scroll
through 4 pages of useless tripe to get to your throwaway one-liner?

-Paul


04 Apr 2006 07:31:20
Jeff Peden
Re: How to judge a juggler?


Returning to the theme of the post and judging a juggler I think you
could actually add one more criteria. Time.

Blink by Malcolm Gladwell notes events in both music and design where
what was cleary seen as incredible work by experts was sometimes
rejected at first by the masses. However, in the cases where the work
was solid, but just so new that the average person was caught off
guard, it survived and grew over time. Pure junk, was still pure junk
over time and disappeared as fast as it showed up.

Sometimes encouraging and teaching the general public what excellent is
helps them judge better as well.

So why not reply to those who send you clips of over-rated, but highly
visible performers by sending them links to clips of the truly gifted
perfromers who aren't as well known. (Yes, many people don't know and
haven't seen even Gatto or Moschen much less the many other astonishing
new talents that have entered the scene in the last 5 years)
Education, Education, Education.

Jeff